Tau: "Good" Guys? (WH40K)

[Lord Zentei]

I get a distinct impression that the Tau were supposed to be relatively amiable as far as a WH40K power is, but maybe there was outcry about the Tau being too nice, so maybe the writers have made them slightly less than benign.

That was my impression also. But if your impression of the outcry business is accurate, that would be retarded. As if absolutely everyone in the galaxy has to be equally vile.

[The Grim Squeaker]

I get a distinct impression that the Tau were supposed to be relatively amiable as far as a WH40K power is, but maybe there was outcry about the Tau being too nice, so maybe the writers have made them slightly less than benign.

That was my impression also. But if your impression of the outcry business is accurate, that would be retarded.

Never underestimate the power of fanwankers and Haters.

As if absolutely everyone in the galaxy has to be equally vile.

Now, now theres:

The Tyranids don't count/non sentient.
Eldar
Tau
Everyone else [IoM]
The Dark Eldar
Chaos

[white_rabbit]

I get a distinct impression that the Tau were supposed to be relatively amiable as far as a WH40K power is, but maybe there was outcry about the Tau being too nice, so maybe the writers have made them slightly less than benign.

That was my impression also. But if your impression of the outcry business is accurate, that would be retarded. As if absolutely everyone in the galaxy has to be equally vile.

I think its perfectly logical the Tau end up making compromises in their outlook as a race as they get exposed to the major players.

I mean, their first encounter was probably Orks.

Not a chance in hell of a peaceful resolution etc with any number of Orks larger than ten, and they'd spawn thousands more who just want to nut the Bluies to death on any planet they got to, even if they weren't inclined to ORK SMASH.

Indeed, Firewarrior highlights this, with selected Tau propaganda catchphrases being altered after they first encounter Orks and Tyranids, another major power completely incapable of ever comprehending the greater good, or espousing it and joining the Tau empire.

It'd just make the Tau seem deeply stupid if they kept on offering olive branches to a bunch of ravening monsters.

So the Demi-ur going to be a more serious and sci-fi themed revamp of the Squats? Anyway they will make interesting allies to the Tau and we will see more on how badly the Tau supposedly treat their non-Tau subjects.

I think the Demi-urg probably don't have much to fear from the Tau as far as ill-treatment goes, technologically they are superior, and they probably range pretty far in their trading/mining vessels.

it'd be a stupid Tau empire that treated the Demurg like shit.

[Adrian Laguna]

Not a chance in hell of a peaceful resolution etc with any number of Orks larger than ten, and they'd spawn thousands more who just want to nut the Bluies to death on any planet they got to, even if they weren't inclined to ORK SMASH.

It's possible to have peaceful relations with Orks. The Blood Axes traded with humans and even hired themselves out as mercenaries. Of course, most other Orks thought this was un-Orky behavior and slaughtered the Axes in "Da Big Party". There are also a number of relatively stable Ork nations and empires, some of which had good relationships with humans until the Great Crusade put them all under the same xenophobic umbrella. Orks need to be fighitng someone, but not necessarily everybody.

[white_rabbit]

Not a chance in hell of a peaceful resolution etc with any number of Orks larger than ten, and they'd spawn thousands more who just want to nut the Bluies to death on any planet they got to, even if they weren't inclined to ORK SMASH.

It's possible to have peaceful relations with Orks. The Blood Axes traded with humans and even hired themselves out as mercenaries. Of course, most other Orks thought this was un-Orky behavior and slaughtered the Axes in "Da Big Party". There are also a number of relatively stable Ork nations and empires, some of which had good relationships with humans until the Great Crusade put them all under the same xenophobic umbrella. Orks need to be fighitng someone, but not necessarily everybody.

I'm well aware of this, but clearly they don't get on with the Tau, because not only have both sides had some pretty brutal wars, the Tau changed their propaganda right after they met the orks.

Greater Orkdom does not mesh with the Greater Good

[Lord Zentei]

That was my impression also. But if your impression of the outcry business is accurate, that would be retarded. As if absolutely everyone in the galaxy has to be equally vile.

I think its perfectly logical the Tau end up making compromises in their outlook as a race as they get exposed to the major players.

I mean, their first encounter was probably Orks.

Not a chance in hell of a peaceful resolution etc with any number of Orks larger than ten, and they'd spawn thousands more who just want to nut the Bluies to death on any planet they got to, even if they weren't inclined to ORK SMASH.

Well, of course they should see some development, that was not my point. My point was that they should not be made nastier simply in order to make them nastier or because "there are no good guys, blah blah, rah rah".

Indeed, Firewarrior highlights this, with selected Tau propaganda catchphrases being altered after they first encounter Orks and Tyranids, another major power completely incapable of ever comprehending the greater good, or espousing it and joining the Tau empire.

It'd just make the Tau seem deeply stupid if they kept on offering olive branches to a bunch of ravening monsters.

Who is saying that they should? Not being vile does not equate to being stupid in the face of an inimical threat, you know.

[white_rabbit]

Well, of course they should see some development, that was not my point. My point was that they should not be made nastier simply in order to make them nastier or because "there are no good guys, blah blah, rah rah".

Accusations of such an outcry are utterly baseless in my opinion, never heard a damn thing about it.

Who is saying that they should? Not being vile does not equate to being stupid in the face of an inimical threat, you know.

Not me ?

[Stormbringer]

I get a distinct impression that the Tau were supposed to be relatively amiable as far as a WH40K power is, but maybe there was outcry about the Tau being too nice, so maybe the writers have made them slightly less than benign.

That was my impression also. But if your impression of the outcry business is accurate, that would be retarded. As if absolutely everyone in the galaxy has to be equally vile.

Actually, I think part of it is that Games Workshop can't quite decide what they want to do with the Tau. On one hand they seem to pick up a lot of new players, attracted to the good guy image and anime like styling. On the other hand, they're well aware that they let the Tau become too much the good guys of late. That's lead to a certain amount of back and forth on the Tau which has annoyed some long time players.

It's not so much that players and other followers felt the Tau had to be vile. But originally the Tau straddled the line between good and ruthless; they had a progressive outlook and ideals but were willing to do the nasty things to make it work. When the change over in writing and development staff happened, that last part was dropped some what. The Tau became an anime-like outpost of relative sweetness and light. Not to say they discarded the old fluff but they didn't pay it much attention either. (A similar thing happened with the Ultramarines) To a lot of old time players that was rightly annoying and out of character for the universe.

Now the pendulum has swung back some what. Except they've mostly failed to bring it back with the subtelty which is was done originally.

[SirNitram]

40k seems to suffer from the need for everything to be vile and evil that got ridiculous with the White Wolf RPGs. The Tau wind up in a position much like Changeling: The new guy the brooding whiners complain is too happiness and light, and so it gets an unsutble beating-over-the-skull set of changes done.

Of course, in both cases, the initial form was never fluffy bunnies and happiness, but those who whine never care.

But yea. Rant off.

[Stark]

Isn't listening to the fanboys like that why Space Marines had more shit than anyone else for years and years? I remember the Ultramarine messiah phase, where they were the 'good' space marines, the 'true' space marines, the marines that didn't want to eat/rape/howl you.

I thought the initial idea for the Tau was neat (when they first came out they seemed to be an advanced and callous society that was nevertheless tacitly interested in helping their people out. It helped that they didn't look retarded like the 'wearing a concrete suit' marines and 'it's Stalingrad guyz' IG.

[Lord Zentei]

Accusations of such an outcry are utterly baseless in my opinion, never heard a damn thing about it.

I'm not making any accusations, you flaming fucking retard. Read my goddamn posts again.

Who is saying that they should? Not being vile does not equate to being stupid in the face of an inimical threat, you know.

Not me ?

No. Not you. Neither am I. You do however seem to be insinuating that I am, with garbage such as this:

It'd just make the Tau seem deeply stupid if they kept on offering olive branches to a bunch of ravening monsters.

It's not so much that players and other followers felt the Tau had to be vile. But originally the Tau straddled the line between good and ruthless; they had a progressive outlook and ideals but were willing to do the nasty things to make it work. When the change over in writing and development staff happened, that last part was dropped some what. The Tau became an anime-like outpost of relative sweetness and light. Not to say they discarded the old fluff but they didn't pay it much attention either. (A similar thing happened with the Ultramarines) To a lot of old time players that was rightly annoying and out of character for the universe.

Now the pendulum has swung back some what. Except they've mostly failed to bring it back with the subtelty which is was done originally.

Such tensions within GW are annoying to say the least, though the Tau will almost ineviitalbly become an just such an outpost of relative sweetness and light merely by being less nasty than the opposition.

[Connor MacLeod]

40k seems to suffer from the need for everything to be vile and evil that got ridiculous with the White Wolf RPGs. The Tau wind up in a position much like Changeling: The new guy the brooding whiners complain is too happiness and light, and so it gets an unsutble beating-over-the-skull set of changes done.

Of course, in both cases, the initial form was never fluffy bunnies and happiness, but those who whine never care.

But yea. Rant off.

I dunno. Having reviewd some of the past stuff in Rogue Trader for 40K along with some of the newer stuff (like the Tau) it always seems like it goes in cycles. The early stuff had elements (like the squats) taht seemed fairly upbeat (the technical regression wasn't nearly as bad, either.) The Tau seemed to be a resurfacing of more "positive" elements. I also found, for example, that the Events of the Gothic War (where the Eldar and Imperium cooperated to defeat chaos) was fairly "positive."

Even despite that though, if you take the novels into account there are plenty of "upbeat" elements in 40K, (The Gaunt's Ghosts novels, The cain novels, and Rennie's BFG books are all filled with elements like that. Shadow point, for example, had the aforementioned collaboration between the Eldar and the Imperium expanded on quite a bit.) From a novel perspective, the whole "dark gloomy and depressing war-torn future" idea is not by itself bad, because it allows a setting for people to be really heroic (and for heroic characters like Ciaphas Cain, Ibram Gaunt, and others to rise to prominence.) Dark, gloomy, and depressing for Dark, gloomy and Depressing's sake is pointless and stupid (Like your White Wolf Analogy, really.)

As an analogy of my own, reading the 40K novels (and one of the reasons I enjoy them) is that many of them tend to capture the flavor of the Napoleonic-era war stories: Horatio Hornblower or Jack Aubrey or Richard Sharpe (or lesser known ones.) The 18th-19th centuries were a very depressing and gloomy place for the most part, but there are elements that can be romanticized by it and make for excelelnt storytelling. (like the British navy, or the army.)

In general I have no problem with the "Tau" being quite a bit less "good" than they profess to be, or for therei being dark/ulterior motives behind them. Nothing wrong with that. But as long as there is something to "play up" to in that, it should reflect an opportunity for "heroic" action on the parrt of Tau, much as the Imperium can be a very dark or depressing place and yet still engender plenty of good (or heroes) despite it.

[white_rabbit]

I'm not making any accusations, you flaming fucking retard. Read my goddamn posts again.

Read my goddamn post again you fucking imbecile, I'm well aware you didn't think there was such a thing, Big orange brought it up, thats my opinion on it, there IS no fucking outcry, nor is there any conspiracy to make the tau "evil". Its a perfectly logical progression for them to be less than the simple archetype they started off as.

Maybe if you weren't so fucking blind, you might have noticed that.

No. Not you. Neither am I. You do however seem to be insinuating that I am, with garbage such as this:

Then clearly you are a complete fucking idiot, because I certainly meant nothing of the sort.

Honestly, what the fuck is wrong with you ?

[Lord Zentei]

I'm not making any accusations, you flaming fucking retard. Read my goddamn posts again.

Read my goddamn post again you fucking imbecile, I'm well aware you didn't think there was such a thing, Big orange brought it up, thats my opinion on it, there IS no fucking outcry, nor is there any conspiracy to make the tau "evil". Its a perfectly logical progression for them to be less than the simple archetype they started off as.

Maybe if you weren't so fucking blind, you might have noticed that.

Learn to fucking post, fool. Your point was made in direct response to my post. If you wanted to respond to Big Orange, you should have quoted him, not me.

No. Not you. Neither am I. You do however seem to be insinuating that I am, with garbage such as this:

Then clearly you are a complete fucking idiot, because I certainly meant nothing of the sort.

Honestly, what the fuck is wrong with you ?

Perhaps I find people who cannot type annoying. Whatever you meant is irrelevant: what you posted is not.

Again: if you post your points while quoting me, the insinuation is indeed that you are responding to me.

[Shadowtraveler]

Even before the new Codex, there was some hints that the Tau weren't as squeaky-clean as they looked. Fire Warrior, anyone?

[white_rabbit]

Learn to fucking post, fool. Your point was made in direct response to my post. If you wanted to respond to Big Orange, you should have quoted him, not me.

Can you not fucking comprehend english or something? Big Orange brought the point up, you responded to it, and I commented on what you posted.

Then you got pissy because you can't fucking read. You say "my point was blah fucking blah" in reference to BO's idea of an outcry againt the tau, and I post that I don't think there IS an outcry.

Try fucking thinking before deciding you've been grotesquely insulted, you raving arehole.

Perhaps I find people who cannot type annoying. Whatever you meant is irrelevant: what you posted is not.

Cannot type ? what the fuck do my typing skills have to do with this you moron ?

Again: if you post your points while quoting me, the insinuation is indeed that you are responding to me.

What the fuck ? I WAS talking to you!

Then suddenly, you turned into to some whining bitch.

[Lord Zentei]

Can you not fucking comprehend english or something? Big Orange brought the point up, you responded to it, and I commented on what you posted.

Then you got pissy because you can't fucking read. You say "my point was blah fucking blah" in reference to BO's idea of an outcry againt the tau, and I post that I don't think there IS an outcry.

Try fucking thinking before deciding you've been grotesquely insulted, you raving arehole.

Let's see what you posted again:

Read my goddamn post again you fucking imbecile, I'm well aware you didn't think there was such a thing, Big orange brought it up, thats my opinion on it

You claimed here that you were responding to BO. And yet:

Again: if you post your points while quoting me, the insinuation is indeed that you are responding to me.

What the fuck ? I WAS talking to you!

I said that the insinuation was that you were RESPONDING to me, not TALKING to me. There is a crucial distinction. I suggest you try to be more clear on who you are responding to in the future.

[Lord Zentei]

All right: after having chilled a bit, and on sober reflection, I see that I have been way too harsh in my posts. This is simply a stupid misunderstanding that does not warrant all this brouhaha. Apologies.

[Rye]

40k seems to suffer from the need for everything to be vile and evil that got ridiculous with the White Wolf RPGs. The Tau wind up in a position much like Changeling: The new guy the brooding whiners complain is too happiness and light, and so it gets an unsutble beating-over-the-skull set of changes done.

I used to think this before I read some of the stuff, but now I don't think it's that fair. Pretty much every protagonist is a normal dude doing what needs to be done in a fearsome universe. I mean, when I read Eisenhorn, I was expecting something much grimmer, something almost silly in its grimness, but instead I got a load of human characters and human situations, life isn't all doom and gloom, and where it is, it's that way for a reason.

Of course, in both cases, the initial form was never fluffy bunnies and happiness, but those who whine never care.

But yea. Rant off.

I can get why people complaining that guys that seem to be good don't fit the rest of it would be annoying, but I also like the idea of the "greater good" is open to interpretation and abuse, just like it is in real life.

[white_rabbit]

All right: after having chilled a bit, and on sober reflection, I see that I have been way too harsh in my posts. This is simply a stupid misunderstanding that does not warrant all this brouhaha. Apologies.

*shrug*

No problem here.

[K. A. Pital]

Fire Warrior, anyone?

Isn't he (and his enclaves) technically a "privateer" on Tau's service but who has lots of leeway and thus can occasionaly conflict with the Empire itself? Like a rogue Francis Drake? His Enclaves are so territorially secluded technically they're not much of a cause of concern for the Tau especially as he seems to support them against any external foe. That's what I thought.

On a side note, Tau looks cool for someone beginning Warhammer 40K - a new and expanding power (which incidentally does look better than others like Chaos, Necrons, IoM and Tyranids, even if not totally "clean"). I'd start with them but WH40K figures are not common in Russia and too expensive for us second-worlders...

Guess I have to be content with playing WH40K computer games and reading books.

[NecronLord]

They're too expensive over here, too.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

It's those damn pewter models. Seems like the only pewter kits worth the increased frustration and more limited modelling options are the ones they'd never do in plastic (like characters and elite units), and those tend to run in the $45-$50 USD range. Bah.

[white_rabbit]

It's those damn pewter models. Seems like the only pewter kits worth the increased frustration and more limited modelling options are the ones they'd never do in plastic (like characters and elite units), and those tend to run in the $45-$50 USD range. Bah.

Give it time, when I look back at how slowly new plastics were released when I started, and the scale and detail of plastic releases nowadays, who knows what they will be able to do in the future.

Of course, I suppose it is fairly unlikely that they'll release single character models, but things like the plastic marine force commander might become more common.

Lets not forget plastic terminators either.....although I'm aware that its fairly clear to see what makes GW the most money, it begins with S, and ends with E

[Lonestar]

Of course, I suppose it is fairly unlikely that they'll release single character models, but things like the plastic marine force commander might become more common.

There is one in the "Megaforce".