Species 8472

[Alyeska]

So their paranoid and cowardly? That's the only logical thing I can draw out of your claims.

Is it cowardly to flee from an enemy who outnumbers and outguns you to a massive degree? Is it paranoid to assume that ships known to be in contact with eachother and have shared technology and crew with eachother to be in an alliance?

They made a wrong assumption, but it was a conserative one which is smart. What if they had assumed Voyager hadn't shared the technology, they attack, and suddenly they loose entire fleets? They either risk the loss of their ships, or attack while gaining relatively little. They decided risk of the Borg having the technology was a greater loss then simple ceasing the war and going home.

Let's see. Even after adaptation, they kick Borg ships ass. Even with the new torps, they are only in danger for large losses if they clump together.

Allow me to put this in perspective: If we detect the Tsar Bomba explosion, do we automatically assume every Soviet-allied country has a supply of big, multi-megaton nukes? Not unless we're paranoid.

Except that even if you attack Borg cubes with a handful of ships (if they have this weapon) then you still loose. If the Soviet Union managed to build a bazoka sized 50 MT shaped charge nuke, then you get a little paranoid.

Try looking at this from the S8472 perspective.

The Borg attempt to invade, this pisses them off. They kick Borg ass, they invade and cause massive Borg damage. They then encounter a ship that is significantly weaker then any Borg ship. Then this pathetic ship encounters the Borg. There is sustained contact. Technology and crew is swapped. Suddenly this pathetic ship has demonstrated the capability to destroy fairly large numbers of their own ships. This pathetic ship shared technology and crew with the Borg... The Borg have larger and more powerful ships then this one, they have more ships then we do... What if they shared the technology... We would be in REAL shit.

That assumption is partially supported by the fact that Voyager had Borg technology installed on it and had a Drone on board. This was AFTER they lost their ships.

Their percieved choices were possible total annihilation or ceasation of hostilities and going home. When faced with possible total annihilation, you make your choices very conservatively.

[consequences]

Except for the fact that Species 8472 was still fighting with the Borg throughout the sector at that point, and in no fight other than the last one with Voyager was the weapon used. If you identify an enemy weapon, and it is the only weapon so far to have done you signifigant harm, and you are slaughtering everything you encounter apart from 1 little ship, then you should either avoid that ship at all costs and get on with killing your enemy, or sacrifice as many ships as necessary to kill the one threat to you. If Species 8472 had sent a scouting group ahead, they would have found that Voyager had practically no modified nanites left, and destroyed them with ease. If they chose not to attack Voyager, then they could have launched repeated hit and run planet killing attacks, as the warning time from them popping out of warp to a planet exploding was practically nonexistent. They were pussies, are pussies, and probably will always be pussies as they were written. Deal with this and move on please.

[TheDarkling]

What if the Borg were upgrading ships with the weapon?, 8472 commit themselves to a major assault and hte Borg pp into fludic sspace and wipe out their infrastructure.

8472 see a Borg alliance with a race with powerfull weapons (I would also point out they didnt know how many Federation vessels were nearby - could have been thousands for all they knew).
So instead of sending their ships on a frontal assault when they have virtually no intel on their enemy, are likely to loose huge numbers and get very little gain accept ensure the new aliens get invovled in a war with them, they would also leave their home open to further attack so they decide to go on the defensive while they gained new intel.

Remember it isnt just an issue of wether the Borg have the weapon deployed its if they are in the process of depolying it (which they dont know) and its also an issue of how many Federation ships are in the area.

[consequences]

Except for the fact that S8472 had been rampaging through Borg space practically at will, and the only fed ship they saw was Voyager. All they needed to do was leave a few planet killing formations behind to erode Borg infrastucture, and they could have withdrawn the vast majority of their fleet to stand on the defensive. They knew the Borg knew how to reach them, meaning that the Borg could open a portal to fluidic space and fire nanoprobe warheads through at will. The only logical thing to do would be to launch an allout offensive to obliterate the Borg before they could get more than a few of the new weapons on line, as standing completely on the defensive is NEVER an effective long term strategy.

[haas mark]

I'm not really paying much attention to this thread....but....*pokes Dart Balls....he's a n00b!*

[Crown]

Has anyone read the thread given by the link? Some choice 'rebuttles';

Well don't forget, all these star destroyers would take years to reach their targets goin warp 1 or "light speed" as they do. The borg also occupy multiple galaxies, so you know they have the numbers to fight. They have boarding parties to add to their cocktail of weaponry; if they simply overwhelmed the ships by assimilating or using their build in wrist gun thing, they would now have a star destroyer at their disposal. They could even steal this technology and use it against the empire.

Clearly and ass. As demonstrated in TPM, AOTC and ANH, Star Wars ships clearly travel a little faster than 'warp1 or "light speed"'. Don't know too much about the Borg, but they occupy multiple galaxies? Ahhh and the boarding parties, because you know that dense material or electric fields don't impeed beaming And of course no matter how advanced the technology is they will be able to 'assimilate' it and then use it against the Empire... Because you know the Empire has no experience in battling against ships of their own design already And not to mention that of course they will be able to actually 'build' or 'manufacture' this technology immediately without pause

And the romulans have the nice ability to cloak, so they could take out so ships from behind, cloak, and do it again. Oh, and don't forget about federation Tricobalt torpedoes. A few of those can really mess up just about anything.

Ahh and the SW galaxy has no experience with cloaking tech what so ever . I have no idea what the 'Tricobalt torpedoes' are though...

And of course another ass shows up too!

Hmm, Borg vs Empire...okay...

Size of Standard Victory Class Star Destroyer against a size of a standard Borg cube (tactical cube is slightly smaller)

SD: 1.6 kilometers long
Borg Cube: Each face of the cube is 5km squared. Borg cube is significantly larger

Ooohh, the borg's are bigger than a VSD, because they are the only examples of an Imperial Star Ship ::Hint:: it doesn't matter how BIG something is, all that matters is HOW MUCH POWER IT CAN OUTPUT!!!::

Ok, so the SD has TIE fighters...

TIE fighters do not have shields, their strength is in numbers.
Now if we include ST: Invasion in here (which is recignoised as canon by paramount), the Borg cube has fighters. Lots of them. Even nastier than a TIE fighter because they are almost flat and constantly spin around AND adapt to weapons

First he goes on to say that TIE fighters are only effective because of their numerical superiority, and then claims that the Borg 'fighters' would be more numerous therefore victory! Suppose he hasn't bothered to consider that a single shot of Obi-Wan's Jedi Starfighter had a rating of 1 kiloton per shot!

But the SD has turbolasers!

A borg cube is capable of functioning even if 75% of it has been destroyed or rendered inoperative. It will also regenerate constantly. The Borg would also attempt to capture and assimilate someone with the knowledge of imperial technology to use it themselves and adapt to its use against them. Borg cubes are also (from what I can see), significantly more manuverable than a SD. The Borg cube also has multiple weapon emitters around the ship

Yes a Borg ship will 'regenerate' faster than a turbolaser will re-arm and fire. And again the 'assimilation' myth. You dick, even if they could 'assimilate' Empirial tech instantaneously (which I don't think they could), what advantage would that give? Could they build instantaneously aswell? Has the Empire all this time been fighting against opponents who have weapons or tech orders of magnitude less than there own? No. They know how to fight against there own level quite well thankyou.

But what if the SD hit the cube in a weak spot?

Borg cubes have no weak spot. The design is completely decentrailised. And dont even bother with that bit in FC, the reason that area was targeted by Picard was because he heard the voices of the borg in his head telling eachother that part of the cube had been heavily damaged and was vunerable (ST:FC, audio version). The SD on the other hand, is protected by 2 measly shield generators. Also, as seen in Q, Who?, the Borg have a weapon that can reduce shields to nothing in one shot. This could be evident in FC because they were destroying federation ships in a single shot and no shields were visible (except on the E-E)

Haven't you caught on yet? Their shields ARE their weak spot you dick! They are orders of magnitude below the yeild of a single Turbolaser! Come on think. You are claiming that I will need to know the 'weak spot' on and ant's exoskeletin in order to crush it!

But the SD has hyperdrive, it could escape

Nope. The Borg have transwarp. Also, the borg just need to assimilate one hyperdrive engine and walla! The borg can now easily catch up with any imperial vessel

Again with the instant assimilation = instant application myth (let alone assuming that the assimilation takes place in the first hand). And why the fuck are the Imperials 'running away'? They are winning you cretin. And transwarp isn't in any direction like hyperdrive, it's only where the transwarp conduits have already been laid.

But the Borg cant adapt!

Maybe. Maybe not. They could merely strengthen their exoskeletons and absorb the blast. As for hand to hand combat, are you serious? A borg drone easily hurled a man about 20ft into the air. Hand to hand is suicide.

Well colour me green and call me Gumby! Are you actually saying that the Borg 'maybe not' be able to adapt? Stop the press! All your other arguments have been based on the ability of the Borg being able to adapt out of hand. Don't stop now! Well Stormtroopers, unlike Klingons, tend to use stand off weapons rather than hand to hand. You might have heard of them, they are called blasters, and they are particle based, so no adapting escape there.

What about an SSD?

The same as the above, except more than one cube would tackle the SSD

Thats all I can be arsed to write for now

If only you could have been a bit more 'arsed' to not write in the first place and you could have saved me this entire trouble!

::Why am I being so aggresive? Well simply because rather than addressing ANY OF THE POINTS OF THE THREAD STARTER, this idiot made his own questions up (in bold) and then answered them wrongly!::

Your Jedi mind control vs Q is pretty good Vega-hon, however you ARE talking about the empire, and the Empire does not have LIGHT Jedi, Only Dark Jedi (Palpatine, Vader, and the students Palpatine was training behind Vaders back.) So they coulden't take over his mind, as Mind control is a Light Jedi tech.

If this was a serious attempt at a rebuttle, then I am a horse shoe.

I feal like signing up just so that I can insult them to their faces.

[TheDarkling]

consequences: Thats the point though - they didnt go on the defensive as their lasting long term setup, they went on the defensive while they planned and implemented their intelligence operations.

You say they cut a swath into Borg held space and found no Fed ships - true enough except we dont know how much Borg space they covered and the Feds could have just been outside Borg space, The Feds may also have ha daccess to Borg Transwarp Conduits meaning the Feds could deploy ships from any quadrant to Borg space inside of 30 mins.

The idea of the Borg opening up portals and firing the weapon into the area would have been a concern Im sure but we dont know how the portal system works - it may not be able to open near infrastructuce etc.

Leaving behind a few planet killed groups would have weakened the Borg but the Borg could have overcome them eventually (if ramming their ships is effective) and it would have been more likley to cause the Feds to attack - remember Janeway said to them that she wanted peace, while they may not have believed her it probably wasnt worth risking provoking the Feds with so little to be gained from further attacks.

[Master of Ossus]

OK heres some data 8472 is a bunch of yellow cowards .When faced with a weapon that evend the playing field they ran like Hell.After loosing less than twenty ships.Two they had a spcial ship that channeled the energy to cause a chain reaction to blow the planet up.Three they may not get involved in a war tween the Federation and the Empire for the reason that both groups seem to be run by humans and being caught in the middle is a bad thing.

After having lost less then 20 ships to a SINGLE ship. And let us just forget that this SINGLE ship was noted as being far weaker then Borg ships, and the Borg just so happen to have millions of ships. And let us forget that S8472 thought the Borg was in a full alliance with the Borg, thus the Borg were assumed to have these weapons as well. And finally let us forget the fact that S8472 came BACK with the intent on infiltrating and destroying the Federation.

Get off the fucking high horse and get with reality. S8472 was not cowardly in their decision, it was the most strategic one they had because they wished not to loose many ships. And when taking part in direct VS debates (as in battles to the death) this cowardly nature isn't even a factor in the debate.

Bullshit, Alyeska. They knew, or they SHOULD have known that Voyager was a threat to them, and that it was the only ship in the quadrant that could harm them. They had a chance to attack Voyager when it was unprotected and isolated, and they chose NOT to do so. That is not a good decision, having lost only three ships. They should have pressed their attack. Their stupidity does factor into debates, even if their cowardice does not. Get off your high horse and get with reality.

[Alyeska]

Bullshit, Alyeska. They knew, or they SHOULD have known that Voyager was a threat to them, and that it was the only ship in the quadrant that could harm them. They had a chance to attack Voyager when it was unprotected and isolated, and they chose NOT to do so. That is not a good decision, having lost only three ships. They should have pressed their attack. Their stupidity does factor into debates, even if their cowardice does not. Get off your high horse and get with reality.

They should have known it was the only one? I guess that ignores the fact that they KNEW Voyager was in contact with the Borg, had Borg modifications on the ship, and had a Drone on the ship that was in contact with the collective.

They had no way of knowing that Voyager hadn't spread this information.

Rather then looking at this assuming that S8472 is cowardly and then bending the evidence to fit this. Try looking at it from a neutral perspective. Even better, try looking at it from THEIR perspective with Total Annihilation being a possibility. Would you take the most liberal approach if your complete and total death was a possibility if you fucked up and made the wrong decision?

[Master of Ossus]

Oh, yeah, Species-8472 should never have been able to tell that Voyager had the only weapons by anything like say, their alleged telepathy. They had spies on the ship. They should have been able to tell what was going on. Further, devoting additional resources (ie. 10-20 ships) to an attack is not suicidal, even if the enemy has a weapon easily capable of destroying them. Rather, for a species with the alleged tens of thousands of ships, such a force would merely be a probing unit, and its loss would not harm the species as a whole. Moreover, you are overly biased for the species. Your scenario states that acting could result in the destruction of a few ships. INACTION could result in the destruction of the entire species, especially since they DEFINITELY should have known that the Borg were there, and potentially were receiving the weapon from Voyager. That being said, I would, of course, throw additional resources into the battle, or at least make an effort to shadow Voyager, to determine what was actually going on. What they actually did was a pointless and futile retreat that solved nothing and lead nowhere.

[TheDarkling]

*sigh* They didnt know Voyager was alone in the quadrant since 8472-Boothby asks Janeway how many SF ships are in the delta quad - so either they didnt know Voyager was alone or they though the Borg (or SF had the ability on its own) were helping SF move about.

If you were 8472 what would you assume? This little ship is all alone and the nearest help is 70 years away OR this ship appears and sems to have a pact with the Borg - their main empire must be around here somewhere.

To reiterate - They didnt know Voyager was alone, they didnt know anything about SF, they didnt know the situation between SF/Voyager and the Borg - frankly they knew jack, seems to me they need intel - well shucks that could explain why they switched to intel gathering

[Master of Ossus]

[groan] You know that a single ship can destroy several of your vessels, and you fear a vast enemy empire nearby, so you choose to ignore the only vessel you KNOW to be potentially harmful while simultaneously NOT suing for peace, opening negotiations, etc.? They are either stupid or cowardly or both.

[TheDarkling]

Yes but why would you assume it was the only ship with the weapon? and even then you wouldnt assume it hadnt been sending back regular reports to HQ.

They didnt sue for peace but they did gather intel and evenually went for an unofficial peace accord.

Its not like they sat on their hands in under a year they were ready to infiltrate SF - thats some quick planning and implementation.

[Master of Ossus]

Yes but why would you assume it was the only ship with the weapon? and even then you wouldnt assume it hadnt been sending back regular reports to HQ.

They didnt sue for peace but they did gather intel and evenually went for an unofficial peace accord.

Its not like they sat on their hands in under a year they were ready to infiltrate SF - thats some quick planning and implementation.

Watch this.

If it IS the only ship, then following it is obviously the right call, even if you cannot destroy it. You want to know where it's heading, so you can warn bases of potential attacks, evacuate planets, be ready to gather defensive fleets, etc. You want to study it extensively, getting more information on its weapons and other capabilities, and getting some understanding of its behavior. Clearly, shadowing it with a small ship, or a small group of small ships, is the right course of action. You may not want to engage it, but shadowing it is clearly the best move.

If it is NOT the only ship, and there are many others, you STILL should be shadowing it in a similar manner. Then you can do anything you could do above, AND, if the ship should head for home, you will be able to learn where their territory is. You will be able to gain some knowledge of their fleet strength, their size, and potentially of their societal capabilities.

Regardless of which assumption you make, you NEED TO FOLLOW THE THING. There's absolutely no reason not to, if you actually have a fleet as large as cultists claim. The fact that Species 8472 did not shadow Voyager demonstrates either incredible stupidity on the part of their fleet commander, or extreme cowardice.

[Alyeska]

Yes but why would you assume it was the only ship with the weapon? and even then you wouldnt assume it hadnt been sending back regular reports to HQ.

They didnt sue for peace but they did gather intel and evenually went for an unofficial peace accord.

Its not like they sat on their hands in under a year they were ready to infiltrate SF - thats some quick planning and implementation.

Watch this.

If it IS the only ship, then following it is obviously the right call, even if you cannot destroy it. You want to know where it's heading, so you can warn bases of potential attacks, evacuate planets, be ready to gather defensive fleets, etc. You want to study it extensively, getting more information on its weapons and other capabilities, and getting some understanding of its behavior. Clearly, shadowing it with a small ship, or a small group of small ships, is the right course of action. You may not want to engage it, but shadowing it is clearly the best move.

If it is NOT the only ship, and there are many others, you STILL should be shadowing it in a similar manner. Then you can do anything you could do above, AND, if the ship should head for home, you will be able to learn where their territory is. You will be able to gain some knowledge of their fleet strength, their size, and potentially of their societal capabilities.

Regardless of which assumption you make, you NEED TO FOLLOW THE THING. There's absolutely no reason not to, if you actually have a fleet as large as cultists claim. The fact that Species 8472 did not shadow Voyager demonstrates either incredible stupidity on the part of their fleet commander, or extreme cowardice.

Maybe they DID Shadow Voyager. How might they have gotten all that data about the Federation? Or maybe they stole it from the Borg. In either case we know they never really ran away because they started an inteligence program.

[Typhonis 1]

And like I said before 8472 will see a fight between the Federation and the Empire as a human civil war

[Master of Ossus]

Maybe they DID Shadow Voyager. How might they have gotten all that data about the Federation? Or maybe they stole it from the Borg. In either case we know they never really ran away because they started an inteligence program.

Oh, of course, they shadowed VOY to the point where they could gain reliable intelligence on the ship without alerting the Borg that were tasked with protecting it. This makes perfect sense.

[Alyeska]

Maybe they DID Shadow Voyager. How might they have gotten all that data about the Federation? Or maybe they stole it from the Borg. In either case we know they never really ran away because they started an inteligence program.

Oh, of course, they shadowed VOY to the point where they could gain reliable intelligence on the ship without alerting the Borg that were tasked with protecting it. This makes perfect sense.

You claim they should shadow Voyager because of the weapons it had on board. Now you claim that S8472 wouldn't have shadowed Voyager because the Borg were protecting it?

Brilliant logic. You say they are bad because they didn't shadow voyager, then when I point out its possible you claim it was stupid to shadow them.

[XaLEv]

I think someone needs to inform Beef of the details of Paramount's canon policy.

[Crown]

I think someone needs to inform Beef of the details of Paramount's canon policy.

<Yoda>I agree</Yoda>

But will he listen?

[XaLEv]

I think someone needs to inform Beef of the details of Paramount's canon policy.

<Yoda>I agree</Yoda>

But will he listen?

Doubt it. But it's worth a try. And it could have an effect on those who are observing the debate, even if it does nothing to Beef.

[Crown]

Very true. I guess that should be our main aim, educating the fence sitters!

[SirNitram]

Since the Pro-Trek debators refuse to acknowledge even the chance the Species could be cowardly, I ask them to please offer evidence the Species would not turn tail and flee from Star Destroyers which can cause losses just as heavily as Voyager's technobabble, and which truly are implemented on many, many ships.

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram: Who said they wouldnt run from a few ISD's if they were taking them out left, right and center??? I am simply showing that they wont run off if someone puts a dent in one of their ships which is what warsies always claim.

Its funny that you paint the pro trek debators in absolutes when in truth its the warsies dealing in them here - I havent seen anyone claim 8472 will send ship after ship to their deaths in fact we have shown they would gather intel and come up with a plan rather than the suicide you would have commited in their situation (from their POV).

MOO: Instead of shaowing Voyager they got alot more info and wsere almost ready to head for Federation space - they gathered the intel they would have from following Voyager and much more but I am glad you agree that Intel gathering was needed.

I cant wait till you tell me the fact that 8472 dont eat at Mc Donalds display absolute cowerdice or stupidity , sinc eeverything 8472 must be motivated by one of these two things.

[Lord of the Farce]

If one little ship could take out many of theirs, while they still wiped the floor with everything else, then wouldn't the most logical course of action be to make sure that what the one little ship can do won't spread to everything else at any cost?

Considering some of the arguements about why they ran away at that stage in the first place, to plan an attack later (when what the single ship can do would have spread to everything else) would have probably been the worst thing they could have done.