More Trektardism

[Kane Starkiller]

And with all phasers set to wide beam, what makes you think the jemmies wouldn't throw a bunch of their soldiers in the path of the wide beams, as living shields for other soldiers? And then, grab their bodies and hold them up to block more kill shots and tossing them at the starfleet people once they got near?

You have to remember that this is a guy who claims that he has extensive military experience including fighting armed people with his bare hands, leading people into combat and watching some of them die.
Apparently all those adventures left him open to the idea that you can just pick up your fallen comrade and carry him in front of yourself while continuing the charge towards a fortified enemy position.
Naturally not one of his buttbuddies over at SFJedi will attack this moronic statement but then will turn around and accuse SD.net of "groupthink".

[Vympel]

It's quite telling that not one of them pipes up and says "you know, that sounds fucking stupid, you're telling obvious lies straight out of the worst internet poser stereotypes, and you're embarrassing everyone here?" when stupid shit like that is posted, ain't it?

[consequences]

How does this jackass type this shit with a straight face?

This would be why I didn't bother to register for half of forever. When the rules of the forum outright state that you'll be punished for calling someone a worthless lying sack of steaming excrement, and that being said worthless lying sack of excrement might warrant a response, it really says all that you need to know,


Lest you think I make this shit up:

"No flaming. Insults, attacks, and rudeness all serve as obstacles to discourse; they will not be tolerated.

Act in good faith. Trolling, dishonesty, and other forms of insincere behavior may be penalized at our discretion."(emphasis mine)

From their official rules thread

[Darth Wong]

It's quite telling that not one of them pipes up and says "you know, that sounds fucking stupid, you're telling obvious lies straight out of the worst internet poser stereotypes, and you're embarrassing everyone here?" when stupid shit like that is posted, ain't it?

I suspect they actually think he's a very smart guy and is making excellent points. A lot of mouth-breathers over there.

[Vympel]

Gstone's "evidence":-

1. Off-axis firing and hitting the desired target.
2. Off-axis firing and not hitting the desired target.

Both of these are established in the canon. I have very willingly said that my idea of eye tracking software was theory. I have always said it was. I never said or hinted that it was canon. In the post you quoted, which you say is verbal garbage, I was explaining how the theory fits in with the examples seen in the canon. I also flat out said it wouldn't give you a perfect shot every single time.

Nothing remotely approaching "every single time", actually. That much is certain. But let's not lose sight of his decree that you didn't need any of the common sense ergonomic features of a real gun to assist your aim because of the wonderful features of a phaser - which was the whole point.

I've missed your use of strawmen against me. I never suggested that only level 16 could be used.

Oh, of course not. He only brought it up. I certainly didn't say "Level 16" before he did.

And again, another strawman. I also said "over the long term". I never suggested that with every shot, massive damage would be done.

Neither did I. Let's see what he snipped:-

and for any reasonable person, the notion that they wouldn't use a setting that would allow them to deal with all their attackers in a few shots at most

And no response, of course, to his absurd implication that his precise magic eye-tracking phaser tool can't be adjusted so as to kill/incapacitate the enemy without allegedly "damaging the bottleneck".

None of us have suggested that the wide beam setting is used more often than not. It is actually your side that keeps saying essentially 'why aren't they using the wide beam setting, get them all knocked down immediately. That's what I would do.'

Remember which side you're actually on.

Right - a thread where people are claiming a real life military force will be effortlessly defeated with wide-beam phaser blasts, with himself thinking up idiotic apologetics for why it wasn't used when merited if it was at all as practical as they claim, and he has the gall to claim that "none of us have suggested that the wide beam setting is used more often than not". Of course, the connection between the two issues must be completely imagined.

Luckily, this moron has claimed he will stop cross-board posting, so his imbecile arguments will hopefully stay there in the future.

[Ted C]

Against an army that doesn't have to constantly deal with losses or is simply inexperienced in terms of actual combat, like the Federation's, they'd have a pretty potent effect on morale. I harbor a personal theory that the subspace mines were tailored specifically to fight the Federation.

Dude, the Feddies walked around in the minefield for six months and took only minor casualties during that whole time. They'd probably have been at greater risk of death from holodeck accidents back home over that same period.

The Jem'Hadar probably would have had better success by periodically rolling Gouda cheese into the encampment and hoping someone trips over it.

I hope Wayne is paying attention to this thread, because that needs to be in his next video.

[CaptainChewbacca]

If wide-beam phasers worked, wouldn't they have used them in the Siege of AR-1283 or whatever it was?

[Typhonis 1]

I know one 'weapon' the Marines would use that the Feddies didn`t even touch.

A shovel. Nothing like digging defenses to improve your position.

[Vympel]

If wide-beam phasers worked, wouldn't they have used them in the Siege of AR-1283 or whatever it was?

That's what this entire little digression is about - the retards thinking up idiotic apologetics for why they didn't use them (like GStone's new classic "because the Jem'Hadar just would've used some of their soldiers as human shields" argument) , while at the same time using them as an excuse for why victory against real soldiers with real guns is practically assured - oh, and then pretending that it's a horrible misrepresentation of their argument when someone brings up other incidents where they weren't used, either.

A shovel. Nothing like digging defenses to improve your position.

How do you know the Jem'Hadar wouldn't have simply built a giant, Jem'Hadar throwing catapult to launch Jem'Hadar into their foxholes/trenches? Huh? Clearly, there would be no point in doing this, and therefore what they did in the actual aired episode was quite adequate.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I know one 'weapon' the Marines would use that the Feddies didn`t even touch.

A shovel. Nothing like digging defenses to improve your position.

In some of the tech manuals, they mention that a type-2 phaser (the 2-hand kind) can be used as an industrial mining implement.

Also, wouldn't human shields NOT WORK against something that can instantaneously vaporize a body and is on continuous fire?

[Ted C]

Besides, unless the guy has been permabanned (which wouldn't surprise me one bit) why can't Gstone come here?

Because he would have to either surrender his carefully preserved anonymity or pay to register with an anonymous email address (hotmail, yahoo, whatever).

[Ted C]

If wide-beam phasers worked, wouldn't they have used them in the Siege of AR-1283 or whatever it was?

I believe that's where the entire argument over wide-beam phaser started, actually, although it comes up anytime the pathetic performance of Federation troops is discussed.

[Batman]

I know one 'weapon' the Marines would use that the Feddies didn`t even touch.
A shovel. Nothing like digging defenses to improve your position.

In some of the tech manuals, they mention that a type-2 phaser (the 2-hand kind) can be used as an industrial mining implement.

The 2-handed one is th type III, the type II is the dustbuster (at least in TNG)

Also, wouldn't human shields NOT WORK against something that can instantaneously vaporize a body and is on continuous fire?

Horseradish. Why would a weapon that they can't use on widebeam because it would have dire effects on the environment to the point where using it risks widening the chokepoint do anything at all to a dead body?

[Knife]

Hmm, I argued this topic on their last board, in fact I think I still ahve the pics from ar 1128 whatever on my photobucket account. Newsome was claiming, after I suggesed that the Jemmies were stupid for running into the bottleneck and should ahve scaled the walls, that the said walls were unclimbable and/or too thin to take up a firering position.

It was mind numbingly dumb.

Any compedent real life force would have layed down a base of fire on that bottleneck and decimated any force stupid enough to charge through it. On top off all that, booby traps and mines would have perserved ammor quite nicely. One clamore in that avenue of approach would have ended the treat quite nicely. Or another option would have been pre-registeing a target on the other side of that canyon with your 60mm motars and shake and bake the bastards.

Shit on that note, wasn't the war crys of the enemy from the Jemmie camp audable from the Feddie camp (been too long since I've seen the episde), could have shake and bake the Jemmie camp.

[Connor MacLeod]

Who wants to bet that if it was pointed out in the canon movies that blasters have examples of "off-axis" firing and thus probably are also "auto aiming" they would come up with some sort of double-standard excuse why blasters couldn't (though phasers could?)

[Darth Wong]

The problem with the rabid Trektards is that there is such a thing as an FX oddity (we would normally treat it like an outlier in scientific data), but they've tried to blur the categories of "FX anomaly" and "anything I don't think should be there". Anything they think shouldn't be in the movies ... becomes an "FX mistake", even if it was totally deliberate.

[Connor MacLeod]

You have to love the reasoning behind someone who says these two things at the same time:

1) "Phasers have auto-aim and super-sophisticated software that can make precise target and power decisions based on high-tech sensor readings and the user's eye movements".

2) "Phasers are so horrendously inflexible that they have no settings in between a pinpoint beam and a beam so wide and powerful that it would uncontrollably destroy all of the terrain around the chokepoint at AR-588".

And of course, he sees no contradiction at all.

The part that really gets me is that if you accepted all their premises about how phasers supposedly work, their design makes even less sense. If these are somehow some highly sophisticated, autotargeting computer-controlled weapon, why the hell do they even have to draw it or hold it in the hand? Some sort of other setup (arm or shoulder-mounted) would make far more sense - the thing should be able to track/target/fire on its own.

So in short, they have made the design of the weapon even worse - not only does the "auto-aim" system work alot worse than it ought to, but they knowingly and deliberately made it far less efficient than it ought to be, for no conceivable reason. (Basically its an auto-aiming weapon that can't aim quite well and still needs to be manually operated in a non-ergonomic package.)

[Peptuck]

And with all phasers set to wide beam, what makes you think the jemmies wouldn't throw a bunch of their soldiers in the path of the wide beams, as living shields for other soldiers? And then, grab their bodies and hold them up to block more kill shots and tossing them at the starfleet people once they got near?

What I find particularly amusing about this line of stupidity is that it would actually have been a lot more effective against the narrow beams the Feddies actually used in that battle, instead of a widebeam that would have slipped through the gaps left by hefting a corpse in front of you while running at full speed.

[Darth Wong]

And with all phasers set to wide beam, what makes you think the jemmies wouldn't throw a bunch of their soldiers in the path of the wide beams, as living shields for other soldiers? And then, grab their bodies and hold them up to block more kill shots and tossing them at the starfleet people once they got near?

What I find particularly amusing about this line of stupidity is that it would actually have been a lot more effective against the narrow beams the Feddies actually used in that battle, instead of a widebeam that would have slipped through the gaps left by hefting a corpse in front of you while running at full speed.

I would have paid money to see him parachuted into a Star Trek writers' meeting and try to pitch this scene, the way he envisions it. The blank stares, the WTF expressions being exchanged around the table, the head writer telling him to get the fuck out ... it would be hilarious.

[Connor MacLeod]

The problem with the rabid Trektards is that there is such a thing as an FX oddity (we would normally treat it like an outlier in scientific data), but they've tried to blur the categories of "FX anomaly" and "anything I don't think should be there". Anything they think shouldn't be in the movies ... becomes an "FX mistake", even if it was totally deliberate.

Well you could come up with lots of explanations even without invoking outliers (tracer misifiring or something).

It's more symptomatic of the double standard mentality they employ. WRT to positive abilitiesf or other universes (or negative abilities for trek) they'll usually nitpick or distort the argument into ambiguity (SW firepower, Fed military capabilities) which then allows them to invent shit like this out of the blue (or other things, like power armour for federation soldiers).

They'll also ignore any burden of proof demands for the stuff they make up, but they will also insist on absolute and 100% complete citation of all evidencec to support the other side's arguments (IE firepower.) If there's the least bit of wiggle room or its "less than perfect" they'll declare its not proven and throw it out in favor ouf their ambiguity.

That's why I never bothered going over there. The mentality and organization of the entire forum is set up to give the shallow appearance of being intelligent or logical and "fair" (nevermind the miss manners nonsense), when in fact they're a thinly-veiled group of fanatics who do their utmost to appear as the "Anti-SD.net". If I want to waste my time there are better ways to do that then argue with people who won't debate fairly with me anyhow.

[Connor MacLeod]

I would have paid money to see him parachuted into a Star Trek writers' meeting and try to pitch this scene, the way he envisions it. The blank stares, the WTF expressions being exchanged around the table, the head writer telling him to get the fuck out ... it would be hilarious.

Ah, but with Gstone's l33t combat skillz he would be nigh impossible for mere humans to toss out. They'd clearly have to call in the national guard or a SEAL team to extract him.

[Coiler]

That's why I never bothered going over there. The mentality and organization of the entire forum is set up to give the shallow appearance of being intelligent or logical and "fair" (nevermind the miss manners nonsense), when in fact they're a thinly-veiled group of fanatics who do their utmost to appear as the "Anti-SD.net".

"Anti-SD.net"? What do you mean by that?

[Connor MacLeod]

"Anti-SD.net"? What do you mean by that?

They do almost everything they can to not be like this board. IE - their over-the-top and downright silly "Miss Manners" attitude and emphasis on politeness.

[Darth Wong]

That's why I never bothered going over there. The mentality and organization of the entire forum is set up to give the shallow appearance of being intelligent or logical and "fair" (nevermind the miss manners nonsense), when in fact they're a thinly-veiled group of fanatics who do their utmost to appear as the "Anti-SD.net".

"Anti-SD.net"? What do you mean by that?

They have no character, no raison d'etre, no soul other than their hatred of us. They are literally defined by their opposition to stardestroyer.net; they have no other reason for existing. That's why they're nothing more than parasites.

[Lord Poe]

You have to play their game. Ask them to show you one single instance of wide-beam setting set on "kill". There isn't any.