Star Wars RPG question: Jedi or no Jedi ?

[Eleas]

Never forget that everyone can call on the Force, it's just that everyone except Jedi and Force Adepts call it 'luck'.

Good point.

I hate to take up gaming systems again, but I'd say the system used would influence my decision.

Now, the WEG version's biggest flaw, aside from the Power Creep that set in after the first few supplements, was that you couldn't play a full fledged Jedi in game. Once you accept that limitation or rework the rules, it might be okay. But it does make me doubt I'd ever want to try to run a Jedi campaign again.

In d20 Star Wars, you can actually play a Jedi without sabering down six stormtroopers per round with five die to spare. I consider that a step up.

However, it has serious problems. In that game, I once tried to create a group of fairly skilled non-Jedi and a Jedi. Problem was, the system governing such Force users is broken too, albeit to a lesser degree. That is because of the fact that, stripping away all the topping, "Jedi" really is an euphemism for "high level character". So, going by the examples, the Jedi had to have a lot higher level. That was no problem, but it did create friction, because d20 encourages level hunt. The level, after all, is the ultimate determinant of how far a character has advanced. Thus, a high level character, or a Jedi (Level 8-12) will be significantly better in many respects when compared to a skilled Soldier (Level 5).

Of all the systems I've heard of, I think the Buffy version of the Unisystem handled this "division of labour" the best way, really. Cause when you think about it, Hero characters such as Buffy occupy a different position when compared to the rest of the characters. Something could be built on that.

I hope it can, anyway, cause we're building a SW conversion.

[Stofsk]

However, it has serious problems. In that game, I once tried to create a group of fairly skilled non-Jedi and a Jedi. Problem was, the system governing such Force users is broken too, albeit to a lesser degree. That is because of the fact that, stripping away all the topping, "Jedi" really is an euphemism for "high level character". So, going by the examples, the Jedi had to have a lot higher level.

Why? What caused you to determine this? Did you start the game with the PCs at level 1 or was there something that made you say "these guys should be higher"?

That was no problem, but it did create friction, because d20 encourages level hunt. The level, after all, is the ultimate determinant of how far a character has advanced. Thus, a high level character, or a Jedi (Level 8-12) will be significantly better in many respects when compared to a skilled Soldier (Level 5).

True.

I usually consider it a form of meritocracy, that the higher your character is in terms of class, the more powerful he should be and rightly so. (that said you can still fumble in D20 but nevermind that...) When the class itself lends to that, I start thinking "maybe it should be a prestige class." I think the equaliser is meant to be the roleplaying the GM is expected to enforce. In other words, the Jedi aren't meant to go ballistic with the Force powers - they're supposed to use it for knowledge and defence, after all - so that's why you don't go nuts with lightning or what not. But when you're in combat it's better to kill than be killed, so... I dunno.

This is why I've made my own D20 setting. But that's not really relevant...

[Eleas]

Why? What caused you to determine this? Did you start the game with the PCs at level 1 or was there something that made you say "these guys should be higher"?

Partially, it was looking at what a level 1 Jedi could accomplish and putting him into context with a Jedi Knight. Partially, it came from looking at people like Obi-Wan, Luke, etc. And realizing that as the most unready Jedi ever, barely more than a Padawan in fact, Luke was a Level 7 Jedi Guardian.

True.

I usually consider it a form of meritocracy, that the higher your character is in terms of class, the more powerful he should be and rightly so. (that said you can still fumble in D20 but nevermind that...) When the class itself lends to that, I start thinking "maybe it should be a prestige class." I think the equaliser is meant to be the roleplaying the GM is expected to enforce. In other words, the Jedi aren't meant to go ballistic with the Force powers - they're supposed to use it for knowledge and defence, after all - so that's why you don't go nuts with lightning or what not. But when you're in combat it's better to kill than be killed, so... I dunno.

This is why I've made my own D20 setting. But that's not really relevant...

I think what I'd do is simply break away the attack bonus and make it part of the skills, so that attack skills, defense etc weren't so dependent on Level.

Naah, too easy. I'll do a mod on the Unisystem instead.

But there is one thing you can do that might actually be interesting. Put a check mark every time the "active" aspects of the Force are used gratitously. For every x (two or five would be a good number) of times the number of check marks, raise the DC of Farseeing rolls and other difficulties pertaining to focusing the Force over great distance. In case the checkmarks pile up hugely, consider keeping a few at the beginning of the next scenario.

This would represent the "clouding" of the Force described by Luke in Specter of the Past, which I found a very cool idea.

[Stofsk]

But there is one thing you can do that might actually be interesting. Put a check mark every time the "active" aspects of the Force are used gratitously. For every x (two or five would be a good number) of times the number of check marks, raise the DC of Farseeing rolls and other difficulties pertaining to focusing the Force over great distance. In case the checkmarks pile up hugely, consider keeping a few at the beginning of the next scenario.

I really like that idea. It says you can still use the skill, albeit you have to work a little harder. You can limit the PCs capabilities to tie in with the plot ("Shroud of the dark side clouds everything" or what have you), and it's a great way to have the rest of the party not depend on the Jedi guy with the superpowers ("What the fuck do you mean you can't use battlemind anymore, you little cunt? What the fuck do we have you around here for, anyway? Arsehole.").

I personally like the Consular's attack bonus better than the Guardian's. Actually I just like the Consular more. Seems to be a 'real' Jedi in the sense he studies the Force for knowledge and defence.

As for Luke being a level 7 Jedi Guardian ... he uh, got enough xp. <_< >_>

[NecronLord]

you should never treat Jedi as though they're superhuman when compared next to everyone else. Jedi are powerful but they also have problems - the lure of the Dark Side, mass fire, someone's lucky shot, a bounter hunter wanting to add your lightsaber to his pile etc. Come up with something.

You forget that out of 25,000 years of Jedi history, this has been true for less than one hundred. Before and after that they have been able to run at highway car speeds, become invisible at will - even the padawans - and generally shaft any fucker who gets in their way. Until Palpy showed up, only an insane bounty hunter would go after Jedi, and only a very wise one would kill Jedi that were after him. In essence, you could only, while sticking to the canon, make that work during a short period of time.

the Jedi aren't meant to go ballistic with the Force powers - they're supposed to use it for knowledge and defence, after all

Yes they are. Yoda says that meaning that they should never provoke a confrontation. If one starts, the first rule of the Jedi Order is to attack with maximum lethality, especially when outnumbered (RotJ novel)

[Gunhead]

I think it's worth mentioning I'm not using D20 SW. I don't touch D20 with an eleven foot pole. I use modified silhouette CORE, and loving it.
Combat can get pretty lethal specially when bigger guns are brought in, but as a GM I can always fudge the dice in the players favor at the cost of some experience points.
When we tested force skills taken mostly from WEG, the average jedi failed his parry roll once, only once that is. They still need work as skill point costs and such are still not worked out.

I'm currently running a lowdown dirty smuggler campaign about 10 years before ANH. So alot of dirty bars, dirty fights and a fistfull of credits.
It's also a setting where the jedi and so on are pretty non existent.
The SW campaign I think I'll place into the old republic where there are lots of jedi around, and are available as player characters.


-Gunhead

[Stofsk]

You forget that out of 25,000 years of Jedi history, this has been true for less than one hundred. Before and after that they have been able to run at highway car speeds, become invisible at will - even the padawans - and generally shaft any fucker who gets in their way. Until Palpy showed up, only an insane bounty hunter would go after Jedi, and only a very wise one would kill Jedi that were after him.

Point.

Yes they are. Yoda says that meaning that they should never provoke a confrontation. If one starts, the first rule of the Jedi Order is to attack with maximum lethality, especially when outnumbered (RotJ novel)

I'd forgotten that in the book. But you're right.

Still, there has to be something that makes the normal heroes at least able to relate to the Jedi hero, instead of superceded by them. Think of it as a gameplay issue rather one concerned about the setting. It comes down to how good you are as a Gamemaster to be able to navigate the game so that no player feels left out.

[NecronLord]

I would suggest that it depends on the era.

Early Republic: Very good. The Jedi arts are not as advanced as they will be later, which justifies all kinds of limitations.
Sith Wars: You're probably going to be all Jedi PCs or mostly so at this stage.
Post-Sith Republican Era: This is most problematic. Though there are Sith Lords in hiding, no Jedi canonically survives combat with them and lives to speak of it. Renegade Jedi would be the order of the day here.
Clone Wars: Probably the best era for mixed groups. Jedi aren't too hot in this time period.
Empire Era: Being a jedi is a severe disadvantage here. The Jedi will need constant help from other players to avoid the Inquisition. If they get uppity, grab the Wizards Jerec NPC, and throw him at them.
New Republic Era: Very limited number of Jedi.

[NecronLord]

I might get this RPG... *Looks at website, dark side character generator*

A Gungan Sith Lord?
Random Stats:
Sith Mastermind: Gungan Noble 4/Sith Acolyte 6/Sith Lord 5; Init +1; Def 24 (+1 Dex, +13 class); Spd 10m; VP/WP 72 / 10; Atk +12/+7/+2 melee (5d8+0, lightsaber), +13/+8/+3 ranged; SQ Hold breath, low-light vision, Bonus class skill (Intimidate), call in a favor (2), inspire confidence +1, command +2, resource access, minions; SV Fort +10, Ref +11, Will +17; SZ M; FP 5; DSP 2; Rep 12; Str 10, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 15, Wis 17, Cha 16. Challenge Code: E.

Equipment: Lightsaber, fine robes

Skills: Sense Motive +5, Knowledge (Sith lore) +7, Intimidate +9, Gather Information +3, Computer Use +6, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Knowledge (Jedi lore) +2, Read/Write Basic, Speak Sith, Speak Huttese

Force Skills: Force Grip +4, Telepathy +8, Heal Self +5, Enhance Ability +3, Fear +9, See Force +5, Force Stealth +2, Transfer Essence +4, Drain Energy +3, Affect Mind +2, Move Object +8, Control Mind +5, Empathy +6, Battlemind +5, Farseeing +6, Alchemy +5, Drain Knowledge +3, Illusion +3, Force Push +6, Enhance Senses +7, Force Defense +1

Feats: Force-Sensitive, Weapon Group Proficiency (simple weapons), Weapon Group Proficiency (blaster pistols), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (lightsaber), FameSkill Emphasis (Enhance Senses), Skill Emphasis (See Force), Skill Emphasis (Farseeing)

Force Feats: Alter, Control, Sense, Sith Sorcery, Force Mind, Force Lightning, Lightsaber Defense, Force Mastery, High Force Mastery

BWAHAHA, 'Jar Jar is the Sith Lord. Representative Binks is Sidious.'

[Eleas]

Still, there has to be something that makes the normal heroes at least able to relate to the Jedi hero, instead of superceded by them. Think of it as a gameplay issue rather one concerned about the setting. It comes down to how good you are as a Gamemaster to be able to navigate the game so that no player feels left out.

It's surprisingly doable to make a seemingly invincible character work with "lesser" characters. My own fantasy char, Thizara, is for example untouchable in most cases. How do you kill someone who can jump bodies?

Yet my GM and I have been able to make it work. My character has this awesome killing power, but she's learned the most difficult lesson of all: to not use it unless she absolutely must. I think the key here is to give the Jedi characters challenges different from that of the mundanes. That may be different from what most groups seem to do, but it's borne out by what happens in most of the movies. And, I think, for good reason.

[Stofsk]

"Wesa wipe dem out now, right Dooky?"

[NecronLord]

"Taka da fleetsa to tha far sidea of endor, thersa it will waitsa, until called forsa."

[Stofsk]

It's surprisingly doable to make a seemingly invincible character work with "lesser" characters. My own fantasy char, Thizara, is for example untouchable in most cases. How do you kill someone who can jump bodies?

Yet my GM and I have been able to make it work. My character has this awesome killing power, but she's learned the most difficult lesson of all: to not use it unless she absolutely must. I think the key here is to give the Jedi characters challenges different from that of the mundanes. That may be different from what most groups seem to do, but it's borne out by what happens in most of the movies. And, I think, for good reason.

The yellow is interesting: how did she learn that important lesson?

As for what you said in the rest of the post: do you mean that if you throw a Dark Jedi at the party, it is really only a challenge the party's Jedi can handle? While everyone else goes about doing something crucial, the Jedi has to handle this thing alone? Or were you thinking of something more than that example? (which I based off of ANH)

[Eleas]

The yellow is interesting: how did she learn that important lesson?

Well, that's the part you won't be able to use unmodified on a Jedi, not as-is. Thizara's friend Eithene had been captured by a slimy marklord in the city of Marek Pomian. She entered the body of an animal to scout things out there. The first thing she saw was another of her friends, Dergan, being beaten into a pulp, his cranium burst open by a kick, etc. Basically, my little teen shamaness went slightly insane at that point. She entered the spirit plane again, descended upon one of the guards dragging Eithene down to the dungeon, and ripped his soul from his body.

Then she entered the vacant body, killed the other guard (I don't recall exactly how, I think she stabbed him), and tried to escape the castle. Problem is, she was cut off by guards. Then her friends came for Eithene, including some very skilled warriors. Basically, a general melee. And Thizara walked around in a daze, still wearing the guard's body, stabbing and being stabbed, always coming back, and dying a half-dozen times.

After that experience, she was pretty far gone. She'd retreated deep into her own mind, and soon after, IIRC, she fled the group.

As for what you said in the rest of the post: do you mean that if you throw a Dark Jedi at the party, it is really only a challenge the party's Jedi can handle? While everyone else goes about doing something crucial, the Jedi has to handle this thing alone? Or were you thinking of something more than that example? (which I based off of ANH)

I mean that if you throw a Dark Jedi at the party, either the Jedi is given the task of defeating said Dark Jedi, or another will have to step up to the plate. Fighting a Dark Jedi in close combat with a non-Jedi character is not advisable, but who says you have to play to the Darksider's strengths?

To put it another way, I'd love to see a fight in which a random darksider played cat and mouse with Han Solo on an abandoned space station. And I wouldn't put my money on the darksider.

[Gunhead]

I find it irritating when people think that jedi always successfully parries a blaster bolt, because they do so in the movies that have character shields coming in throught the windows.
So I prefer systems that are bit on the lethal side. It forces players to think twice about getting into a fight, and makes running away from a bad situation a good option. There's of course no need to waste characters on a regular basis, maiming them and having their money spent on medical bills is usually enough.

Do you favor highly specific force powers or fewer and let creativity rule the day?
I prefer the latter. When forcing players to describe what they are trying to achieve, it makes them more active and encourages good roleplaying instead of rollplaying.

-Gunhead

[Imperial Overlord]

Eleas:

To put it another way, I'd love to see a fight in which a random darksider played cat and mouse with Han Solo on an abandoned space station. And I wouldn't put my money on the darksider.

The bounty hunter in my group is by far the most dangerous character by the same reason.

[Eleas]

When forcing players to describe what they are trying to achieve, it makes them more active and encourages good roleplaying instead of rollplaying.

Here, here.

[Eleas]

The bounty hunter in my group is by far the most dangerous character by the same reason.

Mmm. The sad fact of Ep 2 was that pure lightsaber battles do in fact grow boring when taken to an extreme. While a little ingenuity (and lots of explosives) never get old.

[Imperial Overlord]

I concure.

[Eleas]

I concure.

Just out of curiosity (and possibly derailing the thread), what would you say was the most difficult enemy that bounty hunter had to deal with?

[NecronLord]

I find it irritating when people think that jedi always successfully parries a blaster bolt, because they do so in the movies that have character shields coming in throught the windows.

Balance aside, they will always do so barring exceptional circumstances such as being blindsided. It's not their skill that parries, it's done by giving one's self to the force. A good jedi would automatically pass any test to block blaster fire.

Incidentally, I'm happy to announce that I just got the core book for this for £10. It's the pre-AotC version though, and I couldn't find the Dark Side Sourcebook.

[Lord Revan]

Well somebody insist to über powerfull jedi character, you can always use the method that was told in KOTOR2 "no blasters, no getting close. Attack those they care instead"

[Gunhead]

Wasting a character is really not a problem. I'm the GM. The thing is I don't want my players going down that road. I don't kill characters on a whim, and even give them a chance if they roll badly like the nth time in a row. Players who try to go on power trips because the rules allow them, get taken down a notch. Hard.
But GM power trips get real old real fast, so I rather prevent these kind of situations from ever happening.

I'd say most problems with force using characters happen when the ideas between the player and the GM what the character is capable off, don't meet.
All GMs I know enforce their view, which may cause aggravation even if it's not intended.

-Gunhead

[SirNitram]

I suppose I should have mentioned I turn the power up on my Jedi a notch, closer to the canon, where the only way to get a pesky Knight and his meddling Padawan out of your battleship is specialized shielded droids. Clone Wars only emphasized the feeling I was, so to speak, 'right' in this choice.

But ultimately, your game. I just think it's better thematically if your party is unified in goals, if not necessarily methods..

[Enforcer Talen]

I usually have a jedi or two in the party. I briefly had a party of all jedi, but most of them were stupid, and so died or were exiled.

that took about 3 days.

Ive found taking hostages works really well against jedi. the main boss was fleeing, and they chased after him. his flunkies stood in the waywith 10 prisoners, and told the jedi they'd let him through in 2 hrs - no one would have to die . I nearly stole the party's ship that way, but they ended up throwing grenades at the hostages.

my favorite villian, who hasnt been introduced yet, is an absolute animal. jedi guardian 4, dark side maruader 3, emperors hand 2, sith warrior 1. he gets like +50 on his resource gather, so will be using a first run acclamator to hunt the party.