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The taxes should have been removed altogether. It should have just been that Naboo's native industry exclusively produces [insert immensely valuable commodity here], which explains the luxurious and wealthy look of the planet, and the Trade Federation's greedily lusting after it but until subtly encouraged through Sidious' manipulations too cowardly to just take it violently. Makes for sure more sense than the "taxation of trade routes -> annex random planet"-ploy we got.

Metahive wrote:The taxes should have been removed altogether. It should have just been that Naboo's native industry exclusively produces [insert immensely valuable commodity here], which explains the luxurious and wealthy look of the planet, and the Trade Federation's greedily lusting after it but until subtly encouraged through Sidious' manipulations too cowardly to just take it violently. Makes for sure more sense than the "taxation of trade routes -> annex random planet"-ploy we got.

Was it ever implied that Naboo was a random planet? I assumed that it was one of the outlying planets affected by the taxation.

The problem is that there's nothing ever implied as to how the taxation issue pertains to Naboo in the movie so within that context it's pretty much a random victim of TF harassment. If at least Gunray had said something like "Our blockade is completely legal until Naboo has paid its due" or something like that it would have helped much.

That's because it was supposed to be a random victim of Federation attack, at least from the view of outside observers.

No, it was not supposed to be random, why do you think the opening crawl and later Palpatine before the senate mention the tax dispute in relation with the blockade/invasion of Naboo the first place? Palpatine was already quoted on the thread, so here's this:

"Turmoil has engulfed the Galactic Republic. The taxation of
trade routes to outlaying star systems is in dispute. Hoping
to resolve the matter with a blockade of deadly battleships,
the greedy Trade Federation has stopped all shipping to the
small planet of Naboo."

So Tax Dispute -> ... -> Blockade/Invasion of Naboo. Something's amiss. Neither Gunray, nor Amidala, nor Sio Bibble, nor anyone ever concretely informs the audience what exactly the issue is here. That's why I proposed that a more generic "TF lusts for Naboo's riches" ploy would have been more serviceable. After all, the very opening calls the TF "greedy".

Because Naboo was selected merely because it was a nice defenseless target after the Federation couldn't get those taxes repealed in the Senate.

EDIT: I do agree, though, that having the Federation try to loot the planet would have been better, if a bit hackneyed.

That makes no sense at all. If they did it out of protest then why the attempt to legalize the occupation or deny what they've been doing before the senate? What good is a hostage for a hostage taker if he vehemently denies to have any hostages at all.

"THIS IS THE POLICE SPEAKING, WE'VE GOT THE PLACE SURROUNDED!"

"BE AWARE, PIGS! I'VE GOT NO HOSTAGES AND I WON'T HESITATE TO DO NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO NO ONE!"

Metahive wrote:That makes no sense at all. If they did it out of protest then why the attempt to legalize the occupation or deny what they've been doing before the senate? What good is a hostage for a hostage taker if he vehemently denies to have any hostages at all.

"THIS IS THE POLICE SPEAKING, WE'VE GOT THE PLACE SURROUNDED!"

"BE AWARE, PIGS! I'VE GOT NO HOSTAGES AND I WON'T HESITATE TO DO NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO NO ONE!"

That's a false analogy. The TF weren't making demands in the Senate using Naboo as a hostage, they were making their demands to Naboo (i.e. whatever the fuck was in that treaty they were trying to get signed).

It's more like having someone at gunpoint, then when they say, "HELP! I'M A HOSTAGE!" hiding your gun and saying "Nope, it's all good, no hostage situation here."

Doesn't fly. It was the senate who came up with the tax business, as explicitly spelled out by Palpatine, and according to his little speech that was what motivated the TF to go after Naboo...for some reason. Fuck, nothing done by the TF makes any goddamned sense.

D13's theory works. Even if the senate came up with the taxes, the TF pushing Naboo into paying them (assuming they hadn't) makes sense and reconciles with everything that happened.

Of course, it would be nice if we didn't have to reconcile this stuff with fan theories...

Wonder if it's ever been explained in the EU? (not that it would make the movie any better)

Wow, people still hashing out the taxes, or the precise criteria of what makes something a "MacGuffin." When the term itself is basically defined as something of little to no actual importance. I'm glad I spent the weekend doing other things, instead of arguing with people act like jamming during military operations is a mystery in need of explanation, or that Bail Organa of all people needed to be elaborated upon in TPM.

As I said before, most of what's written about World War I doesn't mention the Archduke. Watch a movie on the American Revolution and the taxes might get a brief mention in the beginning. Situations develop and change. The Hurt Locker didn't say one thing about George W. Bush convincing the American public that he was invading Iraq in search of WMD. When it comes to telling a story, the initial cause often pales in comparison to what is going on in the here and now.

Anybody ever watch the Simpsons? The standard formula there is that each episode begins with one thing, which might set events into motion but usually has absolutely NOTHING to do with the rest of the story.

Kane Starkiller wrote:

Elfdart wrote:OH NOES! You don't see the Civil War in Gone With The Wind, or WW2 in Casablanca!

Those movies never intended to show them. They were about little people swept in a larger event. TPM is about Yoda, the leader of Jedi, Palpatine a senator trying to get to the position of chancellor, Amidala the queen of a planet being invaded, Nute Gunray the leader of the invading force etc. The movie intentionally brings us to backroom meetings where invasions and votes of no confidence are discussed.

I love how you turn the movie sideways in order to make it serve your position. TPM is "about Yoda," Palpatine, Amidala, and Nute Gunray (Gunray, REALLY?)...funny because I thought a lot of it was about Qui-Gon and Anakin.

It's an adventure movie which sets up a crisis, then follows a band of characters as they try to resolve the crisis. Yoda is a supporting character, who serves as a foil for Qui-Gon and sets up Anakin for later movies. Palpatine is a small part, who's only revealed to be the secret bad guy in the second-to-last scene. Amidala is a supporting character, whose arc is about her learning to take things into her own hands since the Republic's political system is broken.

The movie's political scenes are important and serve their purpose, but they are also just a brief part of the whole.

Nice job confusing stories set in the real world, where people can be expected to have some background knowledge of the events, or at least have access to it, with fantasy stories, where there is no other source for background than the work or any related works. In Casablanca, we know who the Nazis are and so they don't have to be introduced. But in a movie like Star Wars that is not related to our history, we don't know who the Empire is or what the Jedi are until the movie tells us about them. Now, one of the best parts of the OT is that you genuinely don't need a huge amount of information to get what's going on. But you do need a certain amount of exposition. Imagine if ANH had left out Obi-Wan explaining who the Jedi were!

PS: The Simpsons is an episodic TV series unconcerned with maintaining more than a minimum of plot continuity, which has established characters. It's more than a little different from a movie which is done and over with in 1 1/2 to 3 hours, and which cannot rely on those same factors.

Jim Raynor wrote:I love how you turn the movie sideways in order to make it serve your position. TPM is "about Yoda," Palpatine, Amidala, and Nute Gunray (Gunray, REALLY?)...funny because I thought a lot of it was about Qui-Gon and Anakin.

It's an adventure movie which sets up a crisis, then follows a band of characters as they try to resolve the crisis. Yoda is a supporting character, who serves as a foil for Qui-Gon and sets up Anakin for later movies. Palpatine is a small part, who's only revealed to be the secret bad guy in the second-to-last scene. Amidala is a supporting character, whose arc is about her learning to take things into her own hands since the Republic's political system is broken.

The movie's political scenes are important and serve their purpose, but they are also just a brief part of the whole.

Sure it was about Qui-Gon and Anakin who constantly interact with the aforementioned characters and the movie constantly brings us to pivotal moments for the entire galaxy without explaining them. Casablanca and Gone with the wind attempt no such thing.

I can't tell you how happy to see this discussion return. Destructionator XIII you are very enjoyable to read, I hope you get to meet my favorite poster, Havok. Could someone tell Havok there's a fight in the schoolyard?

Jim Raynor wrote:Because most people can understand the opening crawl, which literally spelled out "taxation" on screen.

Most people also love movies that put the catalyst in some words at the beginning of the movie and then never bring them up again. It's a sign of good film making.

Elfdart wrote:Like his hero Red Letter Moron, our resident troll is at best severely retarded and at worst a lying shitstain in search of attention.

First off, great pun! I'm going to put one in your next quote, see if you can spot it. Nextly, for a troll he seems to be arguing your idiotic made up points pretty well, however you seem to be trying to goad him into some kind of reaction with your troll baiting.

Elffart wrote:A McGuffin could be a person, an object, or an event that characters of a story are interested in but that, intrinsically, is of little concern. For example, in Hitchcock's movie North by Northwest, thugs are on the look out for a character named George Kaplan. Roger Thornhill, an ad executive, gets mistaken for Kaplan and so he is chased instead. Meanwhile Thornhill himself tries to find Kaplan who doesn't even exist.

The point of a McGuffin is not what it is but how character feel about it. At what point in North by Northwest do the characters stop caring about Kaplan/Thornhill? The TF doesn't give a shit about taxes at any point, if they were in North by Northwest its doubtful they would have even kidnapped Thornhill. They would have most likely just invaded the hotel he was staying in and then denied doing it.

I'm consistently amazed at people insisting that the taxation of trade routes being the thing that the characters are meant to care about because of the definition of a made-up thing like what precisely constitutes a "McGuffin". For fuck's sake, who cares?

It took RLM to tell me that I'm supposed to care about just what changes to the tax code were made to result in this crisis. News to me.

Most people also love movies that put the catalyst in some words at the beginning of the movie and then never bring them up again. It's a sign of good film making.

PALPATINE : Supreme Chancellor, delegates of the Senate. A tragedy has
occured on our peaceful system of Naboo. We have become caught in a dispute
you're all well aware of, which began right here with the taxation of trade
routes, and has now engulfed our entire planet in the oppresion of the Trade
Federation.

I'm amazed that I'm finding myself sticking up for a movie I don't like at all because the criticisms are so asinine:-

"The Trade Federation takes issue with the taxation of trade routes! Makes no sense to me! I need everything spelled out to me in exacting detail! Even when it plainly doesn't matter and serves only to set up the actual crisis which drives the plot of the film!"

Vympel, Palpatine's mention of the taxation issue has already been brought up in this thread. The problem people here have with it is that the tax issue and the blockade of Naboo ought to be connected somehow according to that and the opening crawl yet there's no logical sense behind it since the movie at no point makes it clear why a tax on trade routes would motivate the TF to bully Naboo.

If you say that the taxes don't matter and that it's all a charade for Palpatine's sinister plot, well, the movie doesn't say why the TF would follow his commands so slavishly either (it mentions a bargain but never says what's in it for the TF). Character motivations, including that of the villains are important because otherwise they shred SOD by revealing that they are nothing but a plot device thoughtlessly concocted to fuel conflict and nothing more. In the OT the villains motives were simple enough yet fitting the context (crush the rebellion, establish absolute rule, convert uniquely gifted individuals to your side), but what are the motivations of the TF? Greed, as said by the opening crawl? Greed for what? Creating and maintaining entire armies and navies, invading and occupying hostile places are major resource drains and all those converted bulk freighters idly hanging around Naboo mean that there are less ships to haul goods around. So if it's greed then we need to know what the object of it is that makes them throw all that money away to get it. Otherwise it's a major inconsistency.

We learn at the end of TPM that there was also a real possibility for the TF to lose its trade privileges should any illegal wrongdoing become known so it becomes doubly puzzling why they'd do something that doesn't offer them any obvious benefits but has massive drawbacks. It's simply unbelievable that Palpatine had them cowed to such and extent that he could pressure them into self-destructive operations. He isn't emperor yet, just one guy who even needs to hide his real identity, so how he managed to get this far should have absolutely been explained in the movie. Even Future Guy, that notoriously ill-conceived kinda' sorta' "major" villain in ENT was given a justification for his absolute command over the Suliban cabal; he offered them advanced genetic technology for their goal to become a "master race".

That's why I proposed that a simple "TF Invades Naboo to steal its valuable resources"-plot would have sufficed as well as Palpatine acting more subtly from the background. It removes all of the sore spots above, shows a Republic sliding slip-sliding towards anarchy and establishes Palpatine's manipulative abilities better.

Vympel, Palpatine's mention of the taxation issue has already been brought up in this thread. The problem people here have with it is that the tax issue and the blockade of Naboo ought to be connected somehow according to that and the opening crawl yet there's no logical sense behind it since the movie at no point makes it clear why a tax on trade routes would motivate the TF to bully Naboo.

Because it doesn't matter. Qui-Gonn dismisses the entire thing as "a trivial trade dispute" and explicitly says there is "no logic" to the Trade Federation's move on Naboo. Its consistent throughout the movie. That's why Palpatine in the Senate glosses over the dispute with "as you're all aware" as opposed to launching into irrelevant exposition. The crisis in the film is the occupation of Naboo, that's what all the characters actually care about. Taxation is just the setup.

If you say that the taxes don't matter and that it's all a charade for Palpatine's sinister plot, well, the movie doesn't say why the TF would follow his commands so slavishly either (it mentions a bargain but never says what's in it for the TF). Character motivations, including that of the villains are important because otherwise they shred SOD by revealing that they are nothing but a plot device thoughtlessly concocted to fuel conflict and nothing more. In the OT the villains motives were simple enough yet fitting the context (crush the rebellion, establish absolute rule, convert uniquely gifted individuals to your side), but what are the motivations of the TF? Greed, as said by the opening crawl? Greed for what? Creating and maintaining entire armies and navies, invading and occupying hostile places are major resource drains and all those converted bulk freighters idly hanging around Naboo mean that there are less ships to haul goods around. So if it's greed then we need to know what the object of it is that makes them throw all that money away to get it. Otherwise it's a major inconsistency.

There's nothing its "inconsistent" with to say its an inconsistency. They're being offered favours, that much is obvious. Clearly, whatever these favours are are sufficient for them to follow Sidious' directives. We don't need to know what those favours are, because they're nothing but flunkies. I don't give a shit what some henchman of a crime lord was promised in some random gangster movie either, I just know there's something in it for him*. The degree of things people want spelled out for them is simply silly, and would bog the movie down in tedious, expositionary and ultimately irrelevant minutiae. Just what this mediocre film needs!

*Though if I had to guess, I'd imagine the end of the taxes would be a pretty good candidate.

I'm amazed that I'm finding myself sticking up for a movie I don't like at all because the criticisms are so asinine:-

I find that this happens to me all the time. Just because you hate a movie that isn't very good doesn't mean your reasons for hating it make any sense.

I've been avoiding this thread largely because I find the debate itself to be asinine. The "haters" are suggesting marginal improvements (make the "taxation" thing that kicks off the plot more clear? Sure, good idea, knock yourselves out) and then everyone snarls and gnashes their teeth over that.

The Internet hates TPM, fine. Welcome to twelve years ago. You keep screaming about the taxes, and I'll just pop the DVD in every few years or so and think "huh, decent adventure story, couple annoying characters, boring in the middle" like I always freaking have.

Vympel wrote:We don't need to know what those favours are, because they're nothing but flunkies. I don't give a shit what some henchman of a crime lord was promised in some random gangster movie either, I just know there's something in it for him*.

But they are not henchmen. They are leaders of interstellar organizations with their own territories and armies. Why did those organizations follow their incompetent leadership? What did their populations think? What was the point of showing us a galactic civil war with no idea of who is in the right and who is in the wrong and what the issue is?
It's OK if you don't give a shit about that, that's your personal opinion, but don't pretend the motivations of entire interstellar organizations and the consequences for the Galactic civilizations are somehow "random henchman in a gangster movie".

Kane Starkiller wrote:

Vympel wrote:We don't need to know what those favours are, because they're nothing but flunkies. I don't give a shit what some henchman of a crime lord was promised in some random gangster movie either, I just know there's something in it for him*.

But they are not henchmen. They are leaders of interstellar organizations with their own territories and armies. Why did those organizations follow their incompetent leadership? What did their populations think? What was the point of showing us a galactic civil war with no idea of who is in the right and who is in the wrong and what the issue is?
It's OK if you don't give a shit about that, that's your personal opinion, but don't pretend the motivations of entire interstellar organizations and the consequences for the Galactic civilizations are somehow "random henchman in a gangster movie".

Scale. Random henchmen in a criminal organization that controls a city as opposed to the henchmen of a criminal mastermind plotting to take over a galaxy. About the same as nuke a city on earth or blow up a planet in SW galaxy.

Scale is irrelevant. Leaders of major formal organizations are not random henchman regardless of whether it is a galactic civilization or a 3000 year old city state.

Vympe wrote:The crisis in the film is the occupation of Naboo, that's what all the characters actually care about. Taxation is just the setup.

That's the bigger problem, IMO. We're never given a glimpse of the catastrophic death toll, so it doesn't really seem like much of a crisis at all.

Kane Starkiller wrote:Scale is irrelevant. Leaders of major formal organizations are not random henchman regardless of whether it is a galactic civilization or a 3000 year old city state.

Your personal prerogative I suppose. I don't see much of a difference. I can watch a mob movie and be SOD with police chiefs and major business leaders being corrupt and in league with bad guys as their henchmen and patsies, so I'm fine with huge interstellar trade organizations being corrupt and in league with bad guys as their henchmen and patsies.

But I really can't remember seeing any movie where some shady guy had "something" on a police chief and then made him arrest an entire city neighborhood or something with his underlings and police officers just unquestioningly following his extraordinary orders.
And Trade Federation is simply not some gangster organization or city police. They have seats in the Galactic Senate. In terrestrial terms this makes them at least equivalent to a country within United Nations.
A shadowy guy bullying Sarkozy into invading Netherlands. As you say it's personal preference whether you demand an explanation but I simply can't see how people can just shrug their shoulders at such a development without demanding a detailed explanation or claim anyone who demands answers must be some kind of fanboy.

The situation only grows worse in AOTC which shows an entire block of "states" forming a separatist movement for which no reason is given beyond the implication that it's a "natural" evolution of events in TPM and "taxation dispute".

Knife wrote:Your personal prerogative I suppose. I don't see much of a difference. I can watch a mob movie and be SOD with police chiefs and major business leaders being corrupt and in league with bad guys as their henchmen and patsies, so I'm fine with huge interstellar trade organizations being corrupt and in league with bad guys as their henchmen and patsies.

The difference being in those mob movies you usual see the police taking a bride and understand what's in it for them. Who knows what in it for the TF. Taxes? Every defender here seems to think taxes aren't even important, which apparently they aren't since everyone has a different theory one who or what the fucking taxes are about. Is it the loot from the invasion? Maybe. Its never said if they get to keep the planet or how that benefits their irrelevant tax situation.