Israeli forces attack humanitarian convoy in intl. waters

[CJvR]

Prediction for if the Turks escort the next convoy?

Civil war in Turkey.

[Serafina]

Prediction for if the Turks escort the next convoy?

Civil war in Turkey.

Why the bloody hell should that happen?
There really are not any major factions (that i am aware off) that would start such a war. Turkey is, overall, a pretty stable country.
Sure, it's generals have a bit too much power, but they are not an united front capable of starting a civil war on their own.

[Serafina]

Brutal? Sure. But it gets the job done. As you might have guessed, I am a throwback to the good old days where nearly unlimited force was used to force ends to conflicts, rather than letting them drag on for 50+ years as this particular one has.

It has been said before: You won the battle, but you lost the war.

That is, i can understand your reasoning. But that just shows that a military commander has to be able to take politics into his consideration if he is allowed to act independently. If he isn't, then he should have orders to that regards.

Think about it:
If you (or rather, Isreal) had done it that way, shit would really be going off. The fallout is already bad enough - if they had blown up the ship, there would be virtually no hope for at least a half-decent solution.
You might spare your team - at the price of blowing your countries politics into a deep shithole. Which might just start further armed conflicts.

[Keevan_Colton]

Shep, can the trolling bullshit or I'm hos'ing it.

[CJvR]

Prediction for if the Turks escort the next convoy?

Civil war in Turkey.

Why the bloody hell should that happen?
There really are not any major factions (that i am aware off) that would start such a war. Turkey is, overall, a pretty stable country.
Sure, it's generals have a bit too much power, but they are not an united front capable of starting a civil war on their own.

I am suspicious of the Islamists in Turkey. The main force holding them in check is the army and the prestige it has enjoyed ever since Kemal's days. If you send theTurkish military off to confront the IDF in it's own back yard it will end badly, how badly depends on how stupid the RoE are. That could provide enough political ammo to make a move against the military's position as guardians of Kemal's legacy, and when the military fight back...

[Master of Ossus]

The bolded part provides proof that Israel intended to divert the ships regardless of the legality of doing zone. And note that despite claiming that the 32km-Israel controlled zone was when they'd be overtaken, in reality the attack occurred at 90 nautical miles, far beyond that zone.

What is the "Israel controlled zone?"

It was a bad example. The police have both jurisdiction in such a scenario, and law courts to answer to. The Israelis don't have either one, so resistance is a rather more obvious recourse.

No it doesn't. Trespass or even conversion does not allow someone to resort to application of deadly force.

[MKSheppard]

Shep, can the trolling bullshit or I'm hos'ing it.

You seem to have a strange definition of "trolling". I am pointing out the facts -- however unpleasant they are behind my logic. If you don't like my logic, go somewhere else; but don't attack me for trolling when I have responded to my critics with something more substantiative than "LOL STFU".

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Also the Greeks are responding with a considerable degree of fury as well as a Greek ship was the second ship in the convoy taken under fire by Israeli helicopters, the []Sfendoni[/i].

Here's the article mentioning that claim.

But a Greek NGO, Boat for Gaza, said its vessel the Sfendoni had also come under fire.

“There was an attack with live bullets against the Greek boat Sfendoni and the Turkish boat Mavi Marmara, with helicopters and inflatable boats,” the group said.

The Greek government took it seriously enough to demand an explanation immediately from the Israeli ambassador and cancel military exercises, so we'll see if the Sfendoni[/] was in fact also attacked which would cast further clouds on the Israeli line of events.

Israel’s prime minister has cancelled a planned meeting with President Obama to deal with the escalating international crisis over an attack by the Israeli military on civilian aid ships that left at least 10 dead.

Binyamin Netanyahu, the prime minister, is in Canada and had been due to visit the White House tomorrow after a series of increasingly fractious meetings with the US over the stalled Middle East peace process.

But after Israeli naval commandos stormed the ships of the Gaza Freedom Flotilla overnight, killing up to 19 according to some reports and leaving dozens wounded, Mr Netanyahu has found his country the target of international condemnation and protest.

He said he gave the Israeli military his “full backing” but after initially saying his trip would continue, his office said it had been cancelled.


The Israeli army admitted to 10 deaths in the operation, with reports suggesting nine victims of the violence – which mainly took place on a Turkish vessel – were from Turkey. The reports prompted a furious reaction in Istanbul, where tens of thousands of protesters attempted to storm the Israeli consulate, chanting slogans calling for revenge. Turkey, whose relations with Israel were already tense, immediately withdrew its ambassador and cancelled joint military exercises. At least 28 Britons were aboard ships in the flotilla but it is not known if any of them were involved in the violence.

An Israeli government spokesman said its troops were attacked last night with knives and metal pipes as they attempted to board one of the ships from a helicopter. He said that shooting started when one of the civilians made a grab for a soldier’s gun.

A total of ten soldiers were wounded, including at least one hit by live fire, the army said. Two of the dead activists had fired pistols snatched from soldiers, the army said.

As the Israeli Defence Force towed the six ships into the Israel port of Ashdod, some of the wounded were ferried to Israeli hospitals for treatment.

Countries around the world condemned the raid, with the UN human rights chief Navi Pillay saying she was “shocked” at the violence and the UN Middle East envoy saying that “such tragedies are entirely avoidable”. The UN security council is to meet this afternoon over the crisis. Hamas, the Islamist group which rules the Gaza Strip, called on Muslims around the world to “rise up” in protest.

The White House has expressed “deep concern” and said it is working to understand the circumstances of the deaths.

Television pictures from the night raid in international waters showed Israeli boats closing in on at least one aid ship and others abseiling from helicopters on to the ship’s deck, into a chaotic melee of fighting with sticks and fists. Images of bloody stretchers and wounded people lying on the deck in the aftermath of the raid were also broadcast.

The greatest violence appears to have taken place on the Mavi Marmara, a vessel sponsored by the Turkish Islamic aid organisation Insani Yardim Vakfi (IHH), which Israel says has links with Hamas. But a Greek NGO, Boat for Gaza, said its vessel the Sfendoni had also come under fire.

“There was an attack with live bullets against the Greek boat Sfendoni and the Turkish boat Mavi Marmara, with helicopters and inflatable boats,” the group said.

“They planned this attack,” said Israeli military spokeswoman Lt. Col. Avital Leibovitch. “Our soldiers were injured from these knives and sharp metal objects ... as well as from live fire… It was as if they were planning to lynch the forces.”

Israel’s defence minister, Ehud Barak, later expressed regret over the death, but blamed the flotilla’s organisers for the violence, calling the flotilla a “political provocation”.

The Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas described the raid as “a massacre” and announced three days of mourning.

The Foreign Secretary, William Hague, said he “deplored the loss of life” in the incident and had asked for urgent access to British citizens involved. But he added it was important to establish the facts.

“We have consistently advised against attempting to access Gaza in this way, because of the risks involved. But at the same time, there is a clear need for Israel to act with restraint and in line with international obligations,” he said.

The six-vessel flotilla had been carrying about 600 activists from a variety of nations. The Turkish government said the incident “which took place in open seas and constitutes a fragrant breach of international law, may lead to irreparable consequences in our bilateral relations.” Anti-Israeli demonstrations were also staged in Lebanon and Jordan. Kuwait’s cabinet is to hold an emergency meeting later today regarding the convoy, which also included 15 Kuwaiti nationals and an MP.

The European Union demanded full inquiry and unconditional openings of crossings to Gaza, and Israeli ambassadors were summoned to explain their country’s conduct in Belgium, Denmark, Greece, Ireland, the Netherlands, Norway, Spain and Sweden. Both European Union ambassadors and the Arab League are set to hold emergency talks.

Israel had vowed to prevent the fleet from arriving in Gaza, sending three missile boats from the northern port of Haifa last night to stop them and force them into the southern port of Ashdod, close to the Gaza Strip. The military said it would allow the activists to put the aid in Israel’s care for delivery by land to Gaza.

The convoy had been carrying thousands of tons of aid, including prefabricated building material and electric wheelchairs, as well as hundreds of supporters from a variety of countries. The flotilla had set out from Cyprus on Sunday and been intercepted late at night in international waters as it steamed towards Gaza. Israeli naval officers warned the aid ships to turn back before boarding them.

By midday today one of the ships had reached the Israeli port of Ashdod and the rest were being towed towards the shore. The Israeli army had previously said it would deport those on board who signed a statement saying they would take no further “actions against Israel” but would also assess whether those on the ships should face charges in Israeli courts.

The flotilla’s organisers had already complained of Israeli harassment even before they left Cyprus, accusing Israeli agents of blocking satellite signals and other communications equipment necessary for their safe navigation, and twice delaying their departure.

Among the passengers on the ships were an 18-month-old child, the Irish Nobel peace laureate Mairead Corrigan Maguire, several MEPs and an elderly Jewish survivor of the Holocaust, as well as the Swedish author Henning Mankell.

Israel, which has allowed some previous aid fleets to enter Gaza, says that it delivers humanitarian aid to the strip, though aid organizations have said the amounts allowed in are too low for the reconstruction efforts needed after Israel launched a devastating offensive in Gaza 18 months ago to stem Hamas rocket fire into Israel.

The flotilla, which includes three cargo ships and three passenger ships, is carrying items that Israel bars from reaching Gaza, like cement and other building materials. The activists said they also were carrying hundreds of electric-powered wheelchairs, prefabricated homes and water purifiers.

Several more ships were scheduled to leave Cyprus for Gaza in the coming days, and organisers said they would not be deterred by the violence.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The bolded part provides proof that Israel intended to divert the ships regardless of the legality of doing zone. And note that despite claiming that the 32km-Israel controlled zone was when they'd be overtaken, in reality the attack occurred at 90 nautical miles, far beyond that zone.

What is the "Israel controlled zone?"

Their claimed exclusion zone in the waters off Gaza, which exceeds the actual limit of territorial waters.

No it doesn't. Trespass or even conversion does not allow someone to resort to application of deadly force.

This is on the high seas where no nation has jurisdiction; the Israelis were engaging in kidnapping to plan on the seizure of ships when they didn't know whether or not those ships had contraband aboard.

[Elfdart]

Prediction for if the Turks escort the next convoy?

Civil war in Turkey.

Why the bloody hell should that happen?
There really are not any major factions (that i am aware off) that would start such a war. Turkey is, overall, a pretty stable country.
Sure, it's generals have a bit too much power, but they are not an united front capable of starting a civil war on their own.

Sure there will be a civil war in Turkey if another Turkish ship is attacked. Just like there was a civil war in the US when the Royal Navy attacked American ships in 1812. And the civil war that broke out when the Maine exploded in 1898. And the Lusitania. And when U-boats started attacking American ships in 1940. And after Pearl Harbor. And the civil war that started after the incident in the Gulf of Tonkin.

CJvR, you are one dumb twat. One of the few things that would unite the various factions in Turkey or almost any other country is an armed attack on their ships. More so after the attacker did it once before and was put on notice for it.

[Oskuro]

You seem to have a strange definition of "trolling". I am pointing out the facts -- however unpleasant they are behind my logic. If you don't like my logic, go somewhere else; but don't attack me for trolling when I have responded to my critics with something more substantiative than "LOL STFU".

Your logic is to go overkill on a civilian ship, massacre its civilian crew, and cause a major international turmoil and possibly spark a war? You're either trolling, or a potential war criminal if ever given command of anything. Not to mention a massive Internet Tough Guy who gets a hardon mentioning differen ammo types.

Wait, isn't this exactly what Stark meant by "AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!" ??

[Serafina]

Sure there will be a civil war in Turkey if another Turkish ship is attacked. Just like there was a civil war in the US when the Royal Navy attacked American ships in 1812. And the civil war that broke out when the Maine exploded in 1898. And the Lusitania. And when U-boats started attacking American ships in 1940. And after Pearl Harbor. And the civil war that started after the incident in the Gulf of Tonkin.

CJvR, you are one dumb twat. One of the few things that would unite the various factions in Turkey or almost any other country is an armed attack on their ships. More so after the attacker did it once before and was put on notice for it.

My toughts excatly.

Honestly - WHY should turkish muslims start riots (or a civil war ) when their nation (and turkish nationalism is quite stronger than religiousity) fights on the same side as other muslims.
Even if they were radical muslims (which they are not, not in significant numbers), what kind of motivation should they have to topple their nation in times of war?

Heck, that's pretty much like claiming that radical christians in the USA might overthrow the goverment in times of war.

[MKSheppard]

Your logic is to go overkill on a civilian ship, massacre its civilian crew, and cause a major international turmoil and possibly spark a war?

Considering the civilian ship's crew and passengers are attacking my troops with everything they have -- including baseball bats, crowbars; and have already dropped one of my men 30 feet onto a steel deck (I've seen that through video on scene) -- what compunction do I have to value their lives in a cost/benefit accounting as being worth more than that of my men?

Another thing you fail to comprehend is that Israel is notoriously casualty adverse -- a patrol of six guys getting blown up is not news in the US other than a byline in the paper -- "Today, six US Army soldiers died when their vehicle was blown up by an IED..." -- but in Israel, losing six guys like that out of the blue in a single incident is pretty bad and gets a lot of headline in the Israeli political and media press. So there is additional pressure on the commander to protect his men at all costs -- even if that means more civilian casualties in the process.

[Elfdart]

And 10+ foot long poles. See the video I posted.

If that had been happening to one of my teams; I'd have withdrawn my troopers and then proceeded to rake the ship in question with three inch and five inch (if I could have it) gunfire, until it was a burning wreck in the water. Then I'd apply a coup-de grace with an under the hull shot from a torpedo.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

According to Yellow Rain Man, all the crew of the ship being boarded had to do was grab a wrench and grimace.

[MKSheppard]

WHY should turkish muslims start riots (or a civil war ) when their nation (and turkish nationalism is quite stronger than religiousity) fights on the same side as other muslims.

Could start another military coup in Turkey -- remember that the Turkish armed forces are quite secular, compared to the rest of turkeys' general population, and have on other occasions, couped the government when they viewed it as becoming too religious.

[Aaron]

Considering the civilian ship's crew and passengers are attacking my troops with everything they have -- including baseball bats, crowbars; and have already dropped one of my men 30 feet onto a steel deck (I've seen that through video on scene) -- what compunction do I have to value their lives in a cost/benefit accounting as being worth more than that of my men?

Another thing you fail to comprehend is that Israel is notoriously casualty adverse -- a patrol of six guys getting blown up is not news in the US other than a byline in the paper -- "Today, six US Army soldiers died when their vehicle was blown up by an IED..." -- but in Israel, losing six guys like that out of the blue in a single incident is pretty bad and gets a lot of headline in the Israeli political and media press. So there is additional pressure on the commander to protect his men at all costs -- even if that means more civilian casualties in the process.

Shep, you know as well as I do (or should given all the military shit you read) that the mens lives are secondary to the mission, and that includes political considerations. The CO knows, or should know that opening fire on a civvie ship and killing it's crew and passengers will cause problems for Israel. The responsible thing to do is not open fire but either do what he did IRL or force the ship to turn back without killing everyone.

[Serafina]

Considering the civilian ship's crew and passengers are attacking my troops with everything they have -- including baseball bats, crowbars; and have already dropped one of my men 30 feet onto a steel deck (I've seen that through video on scene) -- what compunction do I have to value their lives in a cost/benefit accounting as being worth more than that of my men?

They are civilians. A good soldier should value their lifes - you don't, obviously.

Besides - would you rather risk the lifes of your soldiers, or a war between your and an equally strong nation?
Or your nation loosing massive amounts of credit all over the world, for that matter.

Could start another military coup in Turkey -- remember that the Turkish armed forces are quite secular, compared to the rest of turkeys' general population, and have on other occasions, couped the government when they viewed it as becoming too religious.

Which is the exact opposite of what CJvR claimed.
Furthermore, how likely is it for the military to start a military coup in times of war?

Besides, you are making your judgement on Turkey from decades ago. It might be hard to understand, but nations change.

[Oskuro]

Considering the civilian ship's crew and passengers are attacking my troops with everything they have -- including baseball bats, crowbars; and have already dropped one of my men 30 feet onto a steel deck (I've seen that through video on scene) -- what compunction do I have to value their lives in a cost/benefit accounting as being worth more than that of my men?

Bwahahaha! You really tell me you can't honestly see how opening fire with high caliber weapons is overkill when facing civilians armed with blunt weapons?
The only reason the soldiers where in danger was because they dropped, one by one, from the helicopter, and were swarmed, wich makes you wonder why in the hell would they do such a thing.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Considering the civilian ship's crew and passengers are attacking my troops with everything they have -- including baseball bats, crowbars; and have already dropped one of my men 30 feet onto a steel deck (I've seen that through video on scene) -- what compunction do I have to value their lives in a cost/benefit accounting as being worth more than that of my men?

Bwahahaha! You really tell me you can't honestly see how opening fire with high caliber weapons is overkill when facing civilians armed with blunt weapons?
The only reason the soldiers where in danger was because they dropped, one by one, from the helicopter, and were swarmed, wich makes you wonder why in the hell would they do such a thing.

Because the Israeli navy is a bunch of clowns. (Conveniently, with ships that are so grotesquely overloaded they might as well be clown cars with pontoons).

[Teebs]

Conveniently, with ships that are so grotesquely overloaded they might as well be clown cars with pontoons).

If you have time could you elaborate? That sounds interesting and amusing.

[MKSheppard]

If you have time could you elaborate? That sounds interesting and amusing.

The Israelis actually had to remove quite a number of weapon systems from one of their corvettes; since it was so dangerously overloaded and topheavy with the original weapons fit.

[CJvR]

One of the few things that would unite the various factions in Turkey or almost any other country is an armed attack on their ships.

Sure, for the moment. But after that? What if the short victorious war isn't? Pushing the military into an operation with a huge chance for humiliation or defeat would be extremeny beneficial for the Turkish Islamists and their agenda of getting rid of the secular watchdog - and I doubt even a whipped watchdog would go quietly.

[Stark]

Israeli is going to defeat Turkey now?

If by that you mean 'sink ships under restrictive ROE protecting civilians' that's a pretty good joke.

[ArmorPierce]

WHY should turkish muslims start riots (or a civil war ) when their nation (and turkish nationalism is quite stronger than religiousity) fights on the same side as other muslims.

Could start another military coup in Turkey -- remember that the Turkish armed forces are quite secular, compared to the rest of turkeys' general population, and have on other occasions, couped the government when they viewed it as becoming too religious.

I find that more likely than the 'conservative Muslims' wrenching control away from the military. If anything, a military deployment will work in the favor of the Turkish military.

[MKSheppard]

Bwahahaha! You really tell me you can't honestly see how opening fire with high caliber weapons is overkill when facing civilians armed with blunt weapons?

It's so sad people completely missed a point that Stuart was trying to make in the middle chapters of Pantheocide -- that even primitive weapons can cause permanent damage in a surprisingly short amount of time. I'm sure you wouldn't mind if I came up and beat you over the head with an aluminum pipe repeatedly.

The only reason the soldiers where in danger was because they dropped, one by one, from the helicopter, and were swarmed, wich makes you wonder why in the hell would they do such a thing.

Because it's the only option open to them?

There isn't an area on the ship large enough to allow the helicopter to land; and the ship isn't big enough for pairs of helicopters to hover sufficiently close enough to support each other mutually as their troops fast rope down.

And if you tried to board the ship by climbing a caving ladder from a ridgid inflatable alongside; you'd still be stuck boarding the ship single file from each caving ladder.

The only thing I can fault the Israelis for is having only one fast rope -- I think you can have a fast rope line on each side of the helicopter and have them not interfere with each other; or having no plan in case the thing went violent; e.g. having a bunch of tear gas cannisters on hand ready to deploy. But that goes back to poor planning by the Israeli Navy.

As for why they kept feeding people into the ship after the first guy was set upon by the "peaceful protestors" on deck; the IDF particularly remembers the 2000 Ramallah Lynching in which two reservists were arrested by the PA after they made a wrong turn into Ramallah; taken to a PA police station; where they were lynched by a Palestinian mob; so I can understand the second, third, and fourth guys jumping down that rope without a second thought.