Tau: "Good" Guys? (WH40K)

[Big Orange]

It's such a vicious circle; aliens were enslaving or exterminating humans and the humans then enslaved or exterminated the aliens in return (ad infinitum).

To be honest, the majority of races aren't bothered by the imperium until they're either actually in the Imperium's way, or attack. Entire civilisations can rise, exist and independantly fall alongside the Impeirum, even trading with them, with no problems.

And who could forget about that relatively harmless alien civilisation that was utterly exterminated by the Emperor's Children during the height of the Great Crusade? And weren't the Tau attacked for merely trading with outer Imperium worlds? Maybe a alien civilisation could survive if they only occupy a solar system or three, but anything bigger than that and they're somehow in the way, then they're seemingly toast.

And I still think the C'Tan are more infinitely evil than the Tau ever could be and the C'Tan are even more despicable creatures if they had the potential to do good for the universe. And the while the Old Ones do not sound like boy scouts, I doubt they fired the first shots when the petty, spiteful and vengeful sounding Necrontyr attacked them.

[Stormbringer]

And who could forget about that relatively harmless alien civilisation that was utterly exterminated by the Emperor's Children during the height of the Great Crusade?

Not every attack on an alien species is perfectly justified.

And late in the Great Crusade, the actions of the individual Primarchs is not always in line with the Emperor's particular wishes. As I recall, Fulgrim wiped them out for their boasting, not because of Imperial strategy. Of course other Primarches also went against the Emperor's wishes and against policy.

And weren't the Tau attacked for merely trading with outer Imperium worlds?

If it's anything like the trade seen in "For the Emperor" it is far from harmless trade. At best it comes with a heaping dose of subversion and political intrguing. They clearly use "trade" as a wedge to help in their larger ambitions of detaching worlds from the Imperium.

Maybe a alien civilisation could survive if they only occupy a solar system or three, but anything bigger than that and they're somehow in the way, then they're seemingly toast.

That's generally true. At the point at which they start growing much larger, they often become regional powers. Almost inevitably that winds up making them a threat to the local stability of the Imperium itself.

[Lancer]

Trade isn't really used to better relations in the 40k.

In "For the Emperor", Cain himself acknowledges that the Imperium itself uses trade as one of the excuses the Imperium uses to launch an invasion. This is also a reason why dealings with xenos are done mostly by rogue traders. They provide a buffer layer between Imperial civilization and xenos like the Tau who would seek to subvert the beliefs of the Imperium.

[Crom]

So are the Squats the real good guys of WH40k?

[NecronLord]

So are the Squats the real good guys of WH40k?

Yes.

This is why they were removed.

[Crom]

So are the Squats the real good guys of WH40k?

Yes.

This is why they were removed.

I've never read anything about the Squats, but correct me if I'm wrong:

-They have no corrupt AM slowing their advancement.
-Their psychers are much less vulnerable to corruption.
-They're loyal to the IoM.
-And they're just all round good guys.

Holy crap! The Squats are awesome!

[Inquisitor Ryan]

And extinct.

[Stormbringer]

So are the Squats the real good guys of WH40k?

Yes.

This is why they were removed.

Some what.

A whole hell of a lot had to do with the fact that the models didn't sell for shit. While they've gotten a hell of a lot of love after the fact, when they were in production they sold about as well as Dark Eldar do now. Barely enough to keep them in production.

Further more, again according to the old timers, most squat armies were not particularly Squat. They were mostly made to exploit the Squat specialties with a lot of time spent earesing the rest. The armies didn't have a lot of character but were mostly built for powergaming.

Hence GW felt that it wasn't worth worrying about the Squats. While a lot of the background from Marines to Orks got grimmer, grittier, and more gothic; Squats just got removed because they weren't worth it. The whole universe was a lot shinier then keep in mind. So the Squats being good two shoes wasn't exactly a problem if they had had more of a future on the table top.

[SylasGaunt]

I've never read anything about the Squats, but correct me if I'm wrong:

-They have no corrupt AM slowing their advancement.
-Their psychers are much less vulnerable to corruption.
-They're loyal to the IoM.
-And they're just all round good guys.

Holy crap! The Squats are awesome!

Which would be why the nids ate them.

[NecronLord]

Further more, again according to the old timers, most squat armies were not particularly Squat. They were mostly made to exploit the Squat specialties with a lot of time spent earesing the rest. The armies didn't have a lot of character but were mostly built for powergaming.

This is completely true of every chaos army I've ever seen. They're not going anywhere soon.

As for the gothicness. It's more that it had more of a sense of humour. The opening fluff of Rogue Trader is Space Wolves slaughtering abhuman civillians for being debased gene-stock, as I recall. It's more that there's less room for stupid stuff (though much of the Orks' stuff remains) like mole mortars and those mini-orcs that used to be able to teleport inside armour than that the fluff has actually gotten 'darker' in any meaningful sense - save the pumping up of the tyranids into more horrific numbers, and additon of all-consuming robots from hell.

While no doubt they could retcon them to be more in line with the other 'shades of black' material, it just wasn't worth the effort.

[NecronLord]

This is completely true of every chaos army I've ever seen.

For the record, this isn't true. I can think of a few traitor guard and lost and damned armies that've fitted the fluff nicely, instead of consisting entirely of tooled-up demon princes and chaos lords, and vast squads of specialist marines. I can count them on one hand, though.

[white_rabbit]

I suppose they did do a throwaway plot hook with the Demi-urg, who are gradually working their way into the general background, mainly through the Tau.

[NecronLord]

Yup. The Demirug may one day become the new space dwarves.

[Crom]

What are the Demi-urg?

[Inquisitor Ryan]

May the C'tan preserve us from such a fate....

[Elheru Aran]

What are the Demi-urg?

Allies of the Tau. They haven't been seen in the fluff much, and we don't know what they *look* like, but their ships are in Battlefleet Gothic. Beyond that, I haven't read anything with them, so I can't really say.

[Stormbringer]

This is completely true of every chaos army I've ever seen. They're not going anywhere soon.

For the record, this isn't true. I can think of a few traitor guard and lost and damned armies that've fitted the fluff nicely, instead of consisting entirely of tooled-up demon princes and chaos lords, and vast squads of specialist marines. I can count them on one hand, though.

To an extent, GW set it up so that Chaos Armies are meant to be that way. Granted some people do tend to go more for the character-centric route but even then that's not entirely wrong.

But the other critical thing is that Chaos Space Marines sell well. They may not be pandered to like Tau or Marines but they still are a big seller.

As for the gothicness. It's more that it had more of a sense of humour.

You're right there. But they did also make an effort to remove some of the lighter elements like the clownish Orks of old and other things like that.

While no doubt they could retcon them to be more in line with the other 'shades of black' material, it just wasn't worth the effort.

Which is pretty much my point. Despite people whining about it later, the Squats were not worth supporting at the time.

[Battlehymn Republic]

Now that I think about it, basically any faction that even resembles "good" in the sense of pluralistic and not being too Social Darwinist are probably either an ally of the Tau, or living in the protected bosom of the Imperium.

[Inquisitor Ryan]

Or in the gullet of the Tyranids...

[Jadeite]

Are there any good pictures of what Tau actually look like?

[Elheru Aran]

Are there any good pictures of what Tau actually look like?

Plenty. Just check the GW website. They're basically slightly Oriental-ish humanoids with three fingers and a thumb instead of the more human four fingers; oh, and they don't have noses either. They're really rather like Duros, actually...

[NecronLord]

And I still think the C'Tan are more infinitely evil than the Tau ever could be

If this is so, it is only because the Tau lack the same intellectual capacity, and thus ability to come up with new ways of being evil. Give them a few million years of unquestioned power over everything and you'd get something truly horrific.

[Azazal]

What are the Demi-urg?

Allies of the Tau. They haven't been seen in the fluff much, and we don't know what they *look* like, but their ships are in Battlefleet Gothic. Beyond that, I haven't read anything with them, so I can't really say.

Ask and ye shall receive - Warseer goodness

[Kuja]

Are there any good pictures of what Tau actually look like?

Aun model

[Big Orange]

So the Demi-ur going to be a more serious and sci-fi themed revamp of the Squats? Anyway they will make interesting allies to the Tau and we will see more on how badly the Tau supposedly treat their non-Tau subjects.

I get a distinct impression that the Tau were supposed to be relatively amiable as far as a WH40K power is, but maybe there was outcry about the Tau being too nice, so maybe the writers have made them slightly less than benign.