Let's Examine Crusade

[Simon_Jester]

I wonder if the relaxed regulation in the restaurants extends to the slaughterhouses...

[Guardsman Bass]

No idea. What's weird is that Stuart also said elsewhere that this wasn't some type of lolbertopian society. World War 2 apparently created a more collectivist, "we're in this together" ethic among that generation, and LBJ got to spend more time and money on the Great Society programs. I suppose it could be a "Denmark" style situation, where you've got a bunch of free-market rules coupled with lots of welfare spending and social insurance. More likely, it just doesn't make sense (especially when you consider that many of the real-life regulations in the Post-War Period were made with broad support among both parties, or at least among the dominant Democratic Party).

[Coiler]

No idea. What's weird is that Stuart also said elsewhere that this wasn't some type of lolbertopian society.

Let's see: Besides everything mentioned in that post, you have essentially all the federal government being run by private entities*, and it turns out to work for the better. Stuart and his fans have claimed at times that TBO isn't a wish fulfillment society, and my statement of "how convenient!" was to show that, the changes in it have led to a US more in line with his views culturally.

World War 2 apparently created a more collectivist, "we're in this together" ethic among that generation

Key word being "among that generation".

, and LBJ got to spend more time and money on the Great Society programs.

There's a passage in Crusade that suggests otherwise.

Unfortunately, Ramsey would try and do the job all too well. He'd spend the entire country's GNP and then some. And still want more. So he'd have to have a check and a balance. LBJ nodded to himself. The Targeteers. They'd be given a study contract to validate and cost out Ramsey Chalk's proposals and produce a working plan to execute them within a strict budget limit. LBJ had no illusions about welfare plans, left to their own devices, they grew like a cancer. So there would have to be boundaries and limits firmly established.

All bolding mine.

More likely, it just doesn't make sense (especially when you consider that many of the real-life regulations in the Post-War Period were made with broad support among both parties, or at least among the dominant Democratic Party).

[/quote]

I agree.

*The irony of that is that the in-universe superiority of the Contractor system isn't due to say, competitive pressure leading to greater productivity. It's due to the Contractors themselves being just so good at working the departments into shape-which is ironically close to McNamara's philosophy.

[Simon_Jester]

World War 2 apparently created a more collectivist, "we're in this together" ethic among that generation

Key word being "among that generation".

Yeah. Come to think of it, that's pretty much what happened anyway. The generation of WWII veterans and their friends and loved ones were mostly happy with the kind of technocratic, infrastructure-building government we had in the 1940s, '50s, and '60s. And there was definitely a strong sense of communal American identity.

It all started to break down in the '60s when many members of the middle-aged WWII generation couldn't deal with all the brown people and uppity women calling for equal status in society, or the counterculture doing weird stuff that didn't align with the way they thought the country should work. And it just kept right on breaking down as that generation aged out of control of society and handed the reins over to the Boomers, who did not have any such sense of collective identity.

Although some of the things that helped splinter that identity in real life (like Vietnam) don't happen here, there are still going to be wedge issues and periods of economic malaise that divide up the boomers into political and social factions who don't trust or support technocratic government the way the WWII generation did. Which is the real reason America couldn't stay in the 1950s forever.

EDIT: Removed some stuff that shouldn't be there- a repetition of Coiler's stuff that I forgot to trim off the end.

[Shroom Man 777]

An idea just struck me.

Simon and Tim were all about how increasingly hostile this board was to right-wing American concepts over the years, and how this coincides to HPCA's spiraling descent into racism, homophobia and violent wishful thinking towards political oppositions, yes?

They were not equivocating SDN to being anywhere near as reprehensible and deplorable as HPCA, though in hindsight I kind of mistakenly thought they were.

But anyway, onto the increasingly lefter liberaler and anti-right stance of SDN that does exist.

I wonder, how much does the increasing influx of foreigners and non-Americans into the board play into this? Mayhaps the anti-right stance of the board has something to do with more members from the rest of the non-American parts of the world, and how the rest of the world perceives America and American politics?

Think about it. Over time, the mod staff has changed. I think half of the most active mods are non-Americans. Edi, PeZook, Thanas, Stas. And a whole lot of the board population is now non-American, from smarmy flippant Australians to psycho Filipinos to more Canadian sodomites and cheese-eating Euroweenies.

This could play into the whole shift of SDN's political climate, and the things Simon and Tim observed could be part of that, in that the board is now hearing more from the rest of the world, rather than just from America/Canada?

[Stark]

To be honest, the people who get the angriest at people saying anything not left 'enough' are generally Americans. The EU and AU guys (at least) just seem to laugh at America doing shit wrong, as opposed to their political reading.

If you think about it, in a country like America guys with (say) EU ideas would be considered 'far left' and by being marginalised, become increasingly strident and angry etc.

[Shroom Man 777]

There could be an interplay though. Dissatisfied left-leaning Americans see the EU and AU guys and get even more dissatisfied and angry at the right. You can't deny that a lot of foreigners are commenting heavily on American affairs.

[Stark]

I guess you're right - and it goes the other way, with US attitudes making EU posters more strident with the whole 'poor Americans struggle with simple concepts' style of commentary. These kind of forces are probably just more visible given the small size of the community (and the carousel-style debate that happens here).

[K. A. Pital]

SDN being vicious? Damn right. Nowhere SDN has proclaimed that it is going to be tolerating idiocy. In fact, most posters here if they post something stupid have the will to admit mistakes and recant later. I posted something which is bullshit? If I've been shown that this is in fact bullshit, I would say okay I was wrong and I'm an idiot, sorry. Even the "right-wing" of SDN like Chocula and others are fairly open-minded and if they post something wrong and get called on it, they admit they fucked up more often than not.

No Mitsubishis, Toyotas or Nissans, but there would be Maratis and Tatas filling the low-cost vehicle niche. No Japanese motorcycles, the imported motorcycle niche is filled by British production. Go to Walmart and its full of cheap goods from India instead of cheap goods from China.

Stuart demonstrates his utter lack of understanding of reality here. India has never undergone the same level of forced secularization and industrial drive that China has. The caste system and the diseases, which are much more prevalent in India, have been holding it back. But since Stuart also thinks that India really had famines where bazillions died after getting liberated from the British Empire, I think Stuart's knowledge about India is aboutas good as his knowledge about most nations other than the USA and Thailand and partly Russia (the last because he was targeting Russia for such a long time - you get to understand the people you're planning to mass murder, after all). That is, his "knowledge" is in fact nonexistent.

Religion is still a potent force but the greater stress on individuals means that it would be much more of a personal choice and preference.

No explanation on why religion is less prominent is ever given. Considering that an overtly religious state (America) triumphed absolutely in the 1940s, there's nothing that would rationally demand such a change. Stuart hates religion, but he can't come to terms with his beloved nation of AMURRICA being THE religious nutjob of the First World, and his archenemy, the Commie Russia, being the atheist nation full of sci-fi fans and almost no religious services for quite a while.

Also, he could have it the way he wanted it - if he ordered it raw, he'd get it that way - his responsibility, if he gets listeria and dies, its his fault.

Libertarian idiocy.

Much merriment amongst the onlookers and a derisive "What's the matter chump? It's only the morning shuttle for Los Angeles going out of Idlewild. Never heard a supersonic bang before?

Stuart fails to understand that supersonic transport failed for reasons unrelated to technical feasilibility.

In the Triple Alliance, the changes would be immediate and notceable; the large free trade area makes them richer (nationally) and much better off (individually) than their OTL counterparts. Russia and Eastern Europe likewise - again they didn't have 1945-1990 communism to hold their economies back.

Stuart thinks that "communism" was "holding back" Russia's economy; in fact, the exact opposite happened. Communism has over-industrialized Russia (from a capitalist perspective) and Russia's expensive labour and scientists were not really necessary for world capitalism (in Russia: most of them simply fled to other nations). If Russia remained a part of the capitalist system, it would be subjected to become a poor periphery nation like many other nations were. Much like IRL when Russia opened to the world, the price of labour in Russia went down, most diversified industries were annihilated and Russia actually returned back to the place where it normally should be in the capitalist system: the periphery. So Russia wouldn't be richer - it would be the same as now, except it would come to this "naturally" without any "excesses" - Russia would look like a bigger version of the Philippines and its evolution would be the same.

[Gandalf]

I like the idea of Australia entering an EU style arrangement with Thailand and India. Do they ever explain that?

[Shroom Man 777]

Chipan.

*snickers*


The idea of Russia being reduced to the Philippines is a sickening and sad one. Russia doesn't deserve such a horrible fate.

Oh man, this gives me a great idea. Russian veterans who fought together with Americans in TBO WW2 should be treated like Filipinos who fought with Americans in WW2. You know, like those locals and natives who hid American soldiers even if the Japanese would kill anyone caught harboring Americans?

Namely, like how IRL the Filipino vets have died of old age before the USA granted them any visas to visit the States or any benefits at all. While guys from Japan can visit the USA without even visas.

What a great ally.

EDIT:

I mean, Jesus Christ. You could've helped some American escaped from a Japanistani death camp on some god forsaken Philippine island, and years later you're blind and dying of old age and the USA hasn't even given you any benefits for being some colonial shitpiece fighting together with GI Joe.

Whereas some rainbow-haired animumangotaku from Japanipponomohippopotanimunimu can go visit the USA without even a fucking visa. That's just beautiful.

[Alkaloid]

I like the idea of Australia entering an EU style arrangement with Thailand and India. Do they ever explain that?

There is no way to explain that without waving a magic wand and declaring that India and Thailand are now no longer third world nations due to it would be inconvenient to what I will loosely term the plot.

Someone wrote earlier that Stuart had this whole thing about how you really have to think through the effects the changes you make will have, yet seems to have completely disregarded the fact that you cannot simply wipe away the entire Pacific theater of WW2 and still have Australia be anything more than a big farm. Disregarding the fact that AU and IN might actually side with England in whatever war they fought cos you know, thats pretty much what they did.

In the Triple Alliance, the changes would be immediate and notceable; the large free trade area makes them richer (nationally) and much better off (individually) than their OTL counterparts.

Australia would be noticeably worse off without the huge influx of migrants from Europe after WW2 and Asia around the Vietnam war. India and Thailand have problems entirely separate from 'unable to have enough trade.'

[Coiler]

I'd be more willing to let the implausible parts of the setting slide if Stuart didn't insist that they were realistic.

What I'm not willing to let slide, no matter the setting, are the poor, scattered plots, the lack of characterization, and the fact that the storylines are set up to minimize dramatic tension rather than maximize it.

[mr friendly guy]

If people are complaining the board is becoming left and giving examples of criticisms of America becoming more prevalent, could it simply be America has shifted more right? Or at least right in some ways. I remember lurking and seeing Stas Bush as a lone hand trying to argue against the plan invasion of Iraq. IIRC he was VIed for this. Ah found it (interestingly by looking up a link from Dark Star's site. )

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=15578

Fast forward to the nonexistent WMDs, torture, er I mean pressured interrogation, locking up people without trial, botched up occupation where Iraqis lost power, electricity and haunted by sectarian violence, and now add targeted assassinations of its own citizens etc and you can see why people would turn away from being so pro USA & hence it might appear that the board has shifted left. Its amazing how many people supported going into Iraq in that very thread and how many of those posters (who are still here) now criticise the US over Iraq. At least they are willing to admit when they are wrong.

Add in the fact some right wingers have moved on, (left wingers also did as well), to complete the picture. *

* notably Joe no longer posts here, and Axis Kast after years of being a dishonest turd finally crossed the line and was terminated by the Emperor but not before displaying the common disease about conservatards known as right wing persecution syndrome. To give examples of left wingers who moved on, Durandal left and Chmee another dishonest poster was likewise also terminated by the Emperor.

[Shroom Man 777]

I remember staying up at the wee hours of the morning, watching CNN and cheering as Operation Iraqi Freedom began and the first nightvision footages of Baghdad lighting up from the AAA fire and JDAM hits started filtering in.

Oh, how times have changed.

[K. A. Pital]

I opposed the Iraq war out of general disdain for imperialism, but boy I was batshit crazy back then. I was a batshit insane Russian nationalist.

[Guardsman Bass]

I like the idea of Australia entering an EU style arrangement with Thailand and India. Do they ever explain that?

I think it was supposed to be a kind of "alignment of the weak" situation designed to prevent the individual members from falling under the influence of outside powers (particularly Chipan, the Caliphate later on, and America). The three main members all had strengths and weaknesses that complemented each other, and Fantasy-Stuart's The Seer's Thai demon counterpart was heavily pushing it from behind the scenes.

I don't think it's likely to occur, but then neither is the Caliphate or Chipan.

What I'm not willing to let slide, no matter the setting, are the poor, scattered plots, the lack of characterization, and the fact that the storylines are set up to minimize dramatic tension rather than maximize it.

I'm more lenient with the first book (The Big One) because it's basically just a vehicle for Stuart to describe how a massive nuclear assault on Germany might have taken place, and what the effects would be on that country. I can (mostly) look past the bad story and terrible prose in that book to understand that.

That's not so much the case with the later books.

[Samuel]

Stuart thinks that "communism" was "holding back" Russia's economy; in fact, the exact opposite happened. Communism has over-industrialized Russia (from a capitalist perspective) and Russia's expensive labour and scientists were not really necessary for world capitalism (in Russia: most of them simply fled to other nations). If Russia remained a part of the capitalist system, it would be subjected to become a poor periphery nation like many other nations were. Much like IRL when Russia opened to the world, the price of labour in Russia went down, most diversified industries were annihilated and Russia actually returned back to the place where it normally should be in the capitalist system: the periphery. So Russia wouldn't be richer - it would be the same as now, except it would come to this "naturally" without any "excesses" - Russia would look like a bigger version of the Philippines and its evolution would be the same.

I think he is refering to things like total factor productivity which communist states have historically been terrible at improving. Plus, eliminating communism doesn't mean you eliminate tariffs, subsidies and other state controls.

As for the periphery, Poland and other eastern European countries managed to have a dramatically different experience even though they were traditionally classified as the perphery.

[Faqa]

If people are complaining the board is becoming left and giving examples of criticisms of America becoming more prevalent, could it simply be America has shifted more right? Or at least right in some ways. I remember lurking and seeing Stas Bush as a lone hand trying to argue against the plan invasion of Iraq. IIRC he was VIed for this. Ah found it (interestingly by looking up a link from Dark Star's site. )

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=15578

That is some deeply hilarious shit going on in there. I think like 90% of the posters there would be banned today, on both sides of the debate. Also, "peacenik" and "the Left" as an insult?

[CrateriaA]

If people are complaining the board is becoming left and giving examples of criticisms of America becoming more prevalent, could it simply be America has shifted more right? Or at least right in some ways. I remember lurking and seeing Stas Bush as a lone hand trying to argue against the plan invasion of Iraq. IIRC he was VIed for this. Ah found it (interestingly by looking up a link from Dark Star's site. )

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=15578

That is some deeply hilarious shit going on in there. I think like 90% of the posters there would be banned today, on both sides of the debate. Also, "peacenik" and "the Left" as an insult?

I remeber reading that. Dear Lord the Imperial Smackdown given to all those who supported Iraq Attack 2TM would have been epic.

[Simon_Jester]

An idea just struck me.

Simon and Tim were all about how increasingly hostile this board was to right-wing American concepts over the years, and how this coincides to HPCA's spiraling descent into racism, homophobia and violent wishful thinking towards political oppositions, yes?

They were not equivocating SDN to being anywhere near as reprehensible and deplorable as HPCA, though in hindsight I kind of mistakenly thought they were.

Thank you.

Think about it. Over time, the mod staff has changed. I think half of the most active mods are non-Americans. Edi, PeZook, Thanas, Stas. And a whole lot of the board population is now non-American, from smarmy flippant Australians to psycho Filipinos to more Canadian sodomites and cheese-eating Euroweenies.

This could play into the whole shift of SDN's political climate, and the things Simon and Tim observed could be part of that, in that the board is now hearing more from the rest of the world, rather than just from America/Canada?

Aye, it could be so...

SDN being vicious? Damn right. Nowhere SDN has proclaimed that it is going to be tolerating idiocy.

I don't disagree- my point is restricted solely to the observation that opinions which would have been tolerated on SDN in 2003 are no longer tolerated on SDN in 2011- the definition of "idiocy" has evolved over time. You can chalk that up to many members' political views maturing or mellowing, to more evidence coming to light that is used in right vs. left debates, to shifts in demographics favoring non-US members, or to anything you like. I don't have an opinion on that.

Stuart fails to understand that supersonic transport failed for reasons unrelated to technical feasilibility.

Ah, but were those reasons things that would, or would not, change in a different social milieu?

The idea of Russia being reduced to the Philippines is a sickening and sad one. Russia doesn't deserve such a horrible fate.

Oh man, this gives me a great idea. Russian veterans who fought together with Americans in TBO WW2 should be treated like Filipinos who fought with Americans in WW2. You know, like those locals and natives who hid American soldiers even if the Japanese would kill anyone caught harboring Americans?

Namely, like how IRL the Filipino vets have died of old age before the USA granted them any visas to visit the States or any benefits at all. While guys from Japan can visit the USA without even visas.

What a great ally.

Russia retains a bit more leverage than that, I think. Mostly because of oil and still retaining some of their industry after the non-communist but still nationalist government takes power. Not sure. Ask Tim.

[Shroom Man 777]

I am glad at the whole shift in demographics slanting to more foreigners. It's really great to see so many people from different parts of the world coming together and sharing their opinions and such. Most of them seem to be wholly agreeable people and despite a lot of our differences, it's amazing how well we seem to get along. I love the multicultural mishmash of peoples and what guise from all around the world have to offer.

[Skgoa]

SDN being vicious? Damn right. Nowhere SDN has proclaimed that it is going to be tolerating idiocy.

I don't disagree- my point is restricted solely to the observation that opinions which would have been tolerated on SDN in 2003 are no longer tolerated on SDN in 2011- the definition of "idiocy" has evolved over time. You can chalk that up to many members' political views maturing or mellowing, to more evidence coming to light that is used in right vs. left debates, to shifts in demographics favoring non-US members, or to anything you like. I don't have an opinion on that.

I came to this site after reading Saxton's Technical Commentaries. I did not join for years (and sometimes left for months at a time), because this forum was so incredibly right-wing from my point of view. And even when I joined, the modus operandi was not the rather civilized discussion and sharing of views we have now, but a viscious battle royal of of logical fallacies, mutual poo-flinging and "concession accepted". It was fun to see how easily you could troll people into pages of rightious fury, but nowadays we get more diverse views. Because as long as you stay within viewing distance of the Maddow-Stewart region of the political landscape, people are actually going to be rational and civilized.

Stuart fails to understand that supersonic transport failed for reasons unrelated to technical feasilibility.

Ah, but were those reasons things that would, or would not, change in a different social milieu?[/quote]
Oh, sure they could change. But not in a capitalist society. Supersonic doesn't make economical sense.

[Guardsman Bass]

I thought the "lack of economical sense" came mainly from the fact that it was banned from flying anywhere except overseas in real life. Would that be the case in the TBOverse, where it seems like they can do overland flights as well?

[phongn]

I thought the "lack of economical sense" came mainly from the fact that it was banned from flying anywhere except overseas in real life. Would that be the case in the TBOverse, where it seems like they can do overland flights as well?

In TBO the SSTs pretty much fly everywhere; plus more economical aircraft like the 2707 got built. The large investment into large military supersonic aircraft probably helped, too.