SDNWorld Redux - Casting Call & Planning

[CmdrWilkens]

So yeah I should be getting around to finishing the setup of Wilkonia Redux soon but in the interim here is the combat element OOB for the Wilkonian Marine Corps:

Wilkonia Marine Corps:

Headquarters Element: Commandant, Chief of Staff, G-1, G-2, G-3, G-4, G-6. Deputy G-1, G-2, G-3, G-4, G-6, Asst Commandant Training and Doctrine, Asst Commandant Combat Forces, Asst Commandant Flight Operations, Asst Commandant Combat Service and Support, and Staff.

I MEF: 1st Div, 1st Wing, 1st MLG, 1st Intel BN, 1st Communications BN, 1st Electronic Warfare BN, 1st Force Reconnaissance Coy, 1st ANGLICO, 1st NBC Coy

II MEF: 2nd Div, 2nd Wing, 2nd MLG, 2nd Intel BN, 2nd Communications BN, 2nd Electronic Warfare BN, 2nd Force Reconnaissance Coy, 2nd ANGLICO, 2nd NBC Coy

III MEF (Reserve), 4th Div, 4th Wing, 4th MLG, 3rd Communications BN, 5th Electronic Warfare BN, 3rd ANGLICO, 3rd NBC Coy

Detached elements: 3rd Div (-), 3rd Wing (-), 3rd Electronic Warfare BN, 4th Electronic Warfare BN


1st Marine Division:
Headquarters BN, 1st Tank BN, 2nd Tank BN, 1st Light Armor BN, 2nd Light Armor BN, 1st Amphibious BN, 1st Recon BN, 1st Combat Engineer BN
1st Marine Regiment (HQ Coy, 1st BN 1st Marines, 2nd BN 1st Marines, 3rd BN 1st Marines)
5th Marine Regiment (HQ Coy, 1st BN 5th Marines, 2nd BN 5th Marines, 3rd BN 5th Marines)
7th Marine Regiment (HQ Coy, 1st BN 7th Marines, 2nd BN 7th Marines, 3rd BN 7th Marines)
12th Marine Regiment- Artillery (HQ Coy, 1st Bty 12th Marines, 2nd Bty 12th Marines, 3rd Bty 12th Marines)


2nd Marine Division:
Headquarters BN, 3rd Tank BN, 4th Tank BN, 3rd Light Armor BN, 4th Light Armor BN, 2nd Amphibious BN, 2nd Recon BN, 2nd Combat Engineer BN
2nd Marine Regiment (HQ Coy, 1st BN 2nd Marines, 2nd BN 2nd Marines, 3rd BN 2nd Marines)
3rd Marine Regiment (HQ Coy, 1st BN 3rd Marines, 2nd BN 3rd Marines, 3rd BN 3rd Marines)
9th Marine Regiment (HQ Coy, 1st BN 9th Marines, 2nd BN 9th Marines, 3rd BN 9th Marines)
15th Marine Regiment- Artillery (HQ Coy, 1st Bty 15th Marines, 2nd Bty 15th Marines, 3rd Bty 15th Marines)


3rd Marine Division (short):
Headquarters BN, 3rd Recon BN, 3rd Combat Engineer BN (-)
4th Marine Regiment-Short (HQ Coy, 1st BN 4th Marines, 2nd BN 4th Marines, Golf Coy, Hotel Coy)
11th Marine Regiment-Short (HQ Coy, 1st BN 11th Marines (+), Echo Coy, Foxtrot Coy)


4th Marine Division (reserve):
Headquarters BN, 5th Tank BN, 5th Light Armor BN, 3rd Amphibious BN, 4th Recon BN, 4th Combat Engineer BN, 5th Combat Engineer BN
1st Marine Regiment (HQ Coy, 1st BN 1st Marines, 2nd BN 1st Marines, 3rd BN 1st Marines)
5th Marine Regiment (HQ Coy, 1st BN 5th Marines, 2nd BN 5th Marines, 3rd BN 5th Marines)
7th Marine Regiment (HQ Coy, 1st BN 7th Marines, 2nd BN 7th Marines, 3rd BN 7th Marines)
16th Marine Regiment- Artillery (HQ Coy, 1st Bty 16th Marines, 2nd Bty 16th Marines, 3rd Bty 16th Marines)


1st Marine Air Wing:
Headquarters Group (H&S Squadron, 1st AD Squadron, 1st Air Control Squadron, 2nd Air Control Squadron, 1st UAV Squadron, 2nd UAV Squadron, 1st Communications Squadron)
11th Marine Air Group (H&S Squadron, VMFA-101, VMFA-104, VMFA-105, VMFA-110, VMFA -117)
14th Marine Air Group (H&S Squadron, VMA- 103, VMA-107, VMA-108, VMA-114, VMA-115)
15th Marine Air Group (H&S Squadron, HMLA-102, HMLA-106, HMLA-122, HMA-124, HMA-125)
16th Marine Air Group (H&S Squadron, HMH-111, HMH-112, HMH-116, HMH-120, HMH-123)
18th Marine Air Group (H&S Squadron, HMM-109, HMM-118, HMM-119, HMM-121, HMM-126)
19th Marine Air Group (H&S Squadron, VMFAT-131, VMAT-132, HMLAT-133, HMAT-134, HMHT-135, HMMT-136)
12th Marine Logistics Group
17th Marine Wing Support Group


2nd Marine Air Wing:
Headquarters Group (H&S Squadron, 2nd AD Squadron, 3rd Air Control Squadron, 4th Air Control Squadron, 3rd UAV Squadron, 4th UAV Squadron, 2nd Communications Squadron)
21st Marine Air Group (H&S Squadron, VMFA-201, VMFA-204, VMFA-205, VMFA-210, VMFA -217)
22nd Marine Air Group (H&S Squadron, VMA- 203, VMA-207, VMA-208, VMA-214, VMA-215)
24th Marine Air Group (H&S Squadron, HMLA-202, HMLA-206, HMLA-222, HMA-224, HMA-225)
26th Marine Air Group (H&S Squadron, HMH-211, HMH-212, HMH-216, HMH-220, HMH-223)
27th Marine Air Group (H&S Squadron, HMM-209, HMM-218, HMM-219, HMM-221, HMM-226)
29th Marine Air Group (H&S Squadron, VMFAT-231, VMAT-232, HMLAT-233, HMAT-234, HMHT-235, HMMT-136)
23rd Marine Wing Logistics Group
25th Marine Wing Support Group


3rd Marine Air Wing (-):
Headquarters Group (H&S Squadron, 3rd AD Squadron, 4th AD squadron, 5th Air Control Squadron, 5th UAV Squadron, 3rd Communications Squadron)
32nd Marine Air Group (H&S Squadron, HMLA-302, HMLA-306, HMLA-307, HMA-308, HMA-309)
35th Marine Air Group (H&S Squadron, HMH-301, HMH-303, HMH-304, HMM-305, HMM-310)
33rd Marine Wing Logistics Group (-)
37th Marine Wing Support Group (-)


4th Marine Air Wing (reserve):
Headquarters Group (H&S Squadron, 5th AD Squadron, 6th Air Control Squadron, 7th Air Control Squadron, 5th UAV Squadron, 6th UAV Squadron, 4th Communications Squadron)
41st Marine Air Group (H&S Squadron, VMFA-401, VMFA-404, VMFA-405, VMFA-410, VMFA -417)
43rd Marine Air Group (H&S Squadron, VMA- 403, VMA-407, VMA-408, VMA-214, VMA-415)
44th Marine Air Group (H&S Squadron, HMLA-402, HMLA-406, HMLA-422, HMA-424, HMA-425)
46th Marine Air Group (H&S Squadron, HMH-411, HMH-412, HMH-416, HMH-420, HMH-423)
47th Marine Air Group (H&S Squadron, HMM-409, HMM-418, HMM-419, HMM-421, HMM-426)
42nd Marine Wing Logistics Group
45th Marine Wing Support Group

By way of reference any all squadrons are 16 planes except for "-T" squadrons which are 12 planes. A standard infantry BN comprises an HS company, 3 rifle companies, and 1 heavy weapons company (heavy mortar platoon, heavy machine gun platoon, AT platoon, etc). Standard rifle company is 3 rifle platoons with a weapons platoon (light mortars, GPMG section, AT section). Recon BN companies do not have this platoon.

[MKSheppard]

The point system is retarded and stupid. Hence why I'm not using and using a sheet I developed much earlier for planet generation for a SciFi Verse, heavily revamped.

Shepistan Basic Stats:

Population 170.00 Million

Population Pyramid Type Sierra Leone 1985

0 to 5 Years of Age 16.46% percent
5 to 19 Years of Age 34.78% percent
20 to 44 Years of Age 32.01% percent
45 to 64 Years of Age 10.99% percent
65 and Over Years of Age 5.76% percent

Per Capita Income $5,600 Dollars

Monthly Cost of Living for Status 0 Char in GURPS $264.58 Dollars

Total GDP (Billion) $952.00 Billion

Are Women Allowed in Armed Forces? FALSE
Are Induction Standards Stringent (Malnutrition, Health, etc) FALSE
Are Child Soldiers Used Heavily? FALSE
Are Older People Conscripted? FALSE

Total Manpower Available 24,735,000 troops
Total Yearly Draft Cohort (all ages) 816,255 troops

Percentage of GDP Spent on Military 10.00% percent
Military Budget $95.20 billion
Corruption in your Country 12.50% percent
Actual Budget Available $83.3 billion

Budget Slice for Ground Forces--42%
Budget Slice for Air Force--46%
Budget Slice for Naval Forces--12%

Shepistani Land Forces

Land Forces Budget - $34.99 billion
Manpower Available - 1,375,000 men, 3,900~ MBTs

Broken down as:
R&DTE - $3.15 billion (research and development; basically, for new shinny tanks or advanced ERA development)
Procurement - $3.15 billion (buying new tanks, missiles, bombs etc)
Military Pay - $3.16 billions (Paying the people)
O&M Costs - $14.99 billions (how much it costs to run my military)
Infrastructure Costs - $10.49 billions (how much it costs to maintain the bases)
Army Budget Surplus/Deficit - $47.66 million (how much money the army has for a slush fund)

Shepistani Army
500,000 men, 2,700 tanks
9 x Armored Divisions (Tanks + IFVs)
1 x Light Infantry Division (Airborne/Mountain/Etc)
E-1 Private's Monthly Pay: $61.60

Shepistani Army Reserves
650,000 men
5 x Mechanized Divisions (APCs)
10 x Infantry Divisions (Trucks and Walking)

Feyadeen Sheppard Special Holy Guard
225,000 men, 1,200 tanks
4 x Armored Divisions (Tanks + IFVs)

[CmdrWilkens]

CmdrWilkens thanks for the info. I am sticking with the points.

I realized I should be happy I have this much considering that in the last game I had 3 tanks and even those were a gift from Stas.

No worries and I wasn't trying to single you out but it was a good chance to bring out the benefits fo the point system versus the real world. The main reason I do want to push it is that "unrealistic" or not this is designed to be a game accessible to folks who don't have Shep and Skimmer's massive library of geopolitical and military tracts available for easy perusal.

Shep keep harping on how stupid the point system is seriously I don't care. The system is designed not to be perfect or even super realistic but rather it is designed to make the game ACCESSIBLE. Sure we could maybe make it a tad different but its a pretty adaptable system and it would be encouraging to edit it rather than throw it out the window.

[Coiler]

I've hit a dead end in regards to creating my army. I know the concept I want, which is a fairly large and well-trained force, but one that does not possess the heaviest or most sophisticated gear (Higher than normal proportion of light infantry, and almost all of their tanks and other AFVs are obsolete) due to underfunding and lack of a perceived need for such things in the wake of the opposition they'd be fighting.

Yet I'm daunted by actually assigning the points to what I want, even with Beowulf's helpful samples. If worse comes to worse and I can't get it all assigned when the game starts, can I leave my army without an exact OOB listing?

[Setzer]

CmdrWilkens thanks for the info. I am sticking with the points.

I realized I should be happy I have this much considering that in the last game I had 3 tanks and even those were a gift from Stas.

No worries and I wasn't trying to single you out but it was a good chance to bring out the benefits fo the point system versus the real world. The main reason I do want to push it is that "unrealistic" or not this is designed to be a game accessible to folks who don't have Shep and Skimmer's massive library of geopolitical and military tracts available for easy perusal.

Shep keep harping on how stupid the point system is seriously I don't care. The system is designed not to be perfect or even super realistic but rather it is designed to make the game ACCESSIBLE. Sure we could maybe make it a tad different but its a pretty adaptable system and it would be encouraging to edit it rather than throw it out the window.

Sheppard's old military designer spreadsheet had a tab that factored in non-combat personnel. For every ship you had, there would be crew, and a number of shore support personnel. Airplanes had a blank spot for aircrew. How about the new points spreadsheet has something like that? For every infantry unit or tank you spend points on, you also get a small number of support personnel. It really doesn't have to be that complicated.

And of course, another increase in points. Even though I want to maximize my military power, I can't deny that the points setup is damn useful. Perhaps if we boost it to, say, 6000 for the biggest ones, and halved from there on in. That'd give a Duchy about 375 points, which we can round up to 420 if needed. That's enough for a decent military. Not as big as the superiors, but not like it can just be steamrolled.

Coiler, we don't insist on OOBs to be assholes. The idea is that with an OOB posted no one can pull forces out of their ass. If all else fails, spend it all on the army and go for impressive looking numbers. Sure, you won't really have a sensible force mix, but it looks good on paper.

[Vohu Manah]

As far as the point system went I assumed all necessary support personnel were included with the equipment. They'd just be minimally armed or carry kit equivalent to a conscript (pistol, helmet, no or light body armor).

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Wilkens, could you possibly translate your OOB into points? Thanks.

[Coyote]

The point system is designed to be a good "build-your-own-army" Lego kit for folks who either aren't military experts, or, just don't want to git into all the mind-boggling minutiae of budgets and accounting and numbers (raises hand).

I don't necessarily think there's a requirement to use the points; after all, we're going to be posting our OOBs publicly and if anything is obviously out of order (like a place the size of Monaco fielding 15 Carrier Task Forces) we can call on the bullshit.

For the most part, common sense can be applied, I'd say, and of there's questions about someone status we can simply ask publicly. So far Marina has volunteered to be mod, and I'm sure she'll put her foot down on any shenanigans.

[Setzer]

Ah, I see. I was clearly believing that there would be stricter enforcement of the points setup then there is.

[MKSheppard]

Sheppard's old military designer spreadsheet had a tab that factored in non-combat personnel.

I've found that multiplying the number of men in a combat unit by 2.67 gets you a fairly accurate count of the non-combat/support slice, for a country that adopts a US-style heavy supply system.

For example, an Armored Division with 17,000 men would require 45,390 men in reality (17,000 in the division itself, and 28,390 men in rear area jobs and attached support units).

This also holds quite well for Air Force units.



5486/2246 = 2.44

(undoubtly, the support requirements have gone up since WWII with more advanced gear etc requiring depot maintenance).

[PeZook]

I gonna stick with my point-made army for now, since I'm really more interested in economics and politicking than counting every single gun

[RogueIce]

Sheppard's old military designer spreadsheet had a tab that factored in non-combat personnel. For every ship you had, there would be crew, and a number of shore support personnel. Airplanes had a blank spot for aircrew. How about the new points spreadsheet has something like that? For every infantry unit or tank you spend points on, you also get a small number of support personnel. It really doesn't have to be that complicated.

Sure I could add a column for that or something, but in the end does it matter how many people I have turning wrenches, or is it enough to know that they're there?

I mean if you want to get that detailed, feel free. I won't stop you. But for most players, I suspect, they're generally not going to care.

And of course, another increase in points. Even though I want to maximize my military power, I can't deny that the points setup is damn useful. Perhaps if we boost it to, say, 6000 for the biggest ones, and halved from there on in. That'd give a Duchy about 375 points, which we can round up to 420 if needed. That's enough for a decent military. Not as big as the superiors, but not like it can just be steamrolled.

The problem with that is the Imperiums would get damn near US military levels like that. Either we'd have to scale up general costs to limit that (thus rendering the overall point increase somewhat moot) or we're going to have some pretty inflated stuff.

It's all well and good to want a large military, but there is some issues of balance and all too (remember, this is a game after all). What's the point of the levels if they're so close in power as to be meaningless? I'm not saying there can't be an adjustment to the points or something else modified, but there should probably be a better reason than "I want a bigger military mmmkay?" The point system, as set up, is kind of flexible in that you can get more equipment at a lower quality, in a lot of cases, though it's not perfect. *shrug*

I'm open to ideas though.

EDIT: Ultimately, as Coyote said, the points system is a nice guide to have. Since we're going to have some mods this go around, if you want something that isn't strictly allowed or really well covered on the points scale (such as Bean's modified Iowas or whoever wanted those Alaska BCs) you can make your case. Heck if you want to go the Sea Skimmer or Shep route and formulate it on your elite military knowledge, go for it.

For the rest of us though, the points system is just easier.

Coiler, we don't insist on OOBs to be assholes. The idea is that with an OOB posted no one can pull forces out of their ass. If all else fails, spend it all on the army and go for impressive looking numbers. Sure, you won't really have a sensible force mix, but it looks good on paper.

Indeed. We don't want people to not declare an OOB and then, when they get in a fight with someone who has, to start making an OOB "on the fly" which just so happens to very nicely counter everything their enemy fields.

I suppose it depends on what you're doing in the early game I guess. I would be happy with saying "I've got a force of stuff from the 1970s mostly" with some rough ideas, even if you don't have every single last battalion specified and equipped. But that's just me.

[Sea Skimmer]

I've hit a dead end in regards to creating my army. I know the concept I want, which is a fairly large and well-trained force, but one that does not possess the heaviest or most sophisticated gear (Higher than normal proportion of light infantry, and almost all of their tanks and other AFVs are obsolete) due to underfunding and lack of a perceived need for such things in the wake of the opposition they'd be fighting.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... index.html

The semi old tables of organization and equipment you can find in the above link should be useful, since they cover all the way up to the divisional level, and list major weapons systems, major pieces of armored engginearing equipment, aircraft, and some high end pieces of communication equipment. All the references to HMMWVs are referring only to HMMWVs used as actual frontline weapons carriers, not the thousands of soft skinned ones being used as trucks.

To help you and anyone else having trouble with here are some rough guidelines based on but not completely in line with US Army practices in the 1990s. I’m listing only certain sorts of major weapons which really matter, everything else can be considered a gimmie as far as Im concerned for a starting OOB. I think this should be helpful

Pretty much a triangular (3 infantry regiments) light infantry division should have 48-72 artillery pieces and multiple rocket launchers, plus 12-36 individual firing units for light SAMs and or AAA, possibly a battalion of 40-60 tanks, and possibly 12-50 helicopters split into utility transport, recon/light attack and potentially heavy transport squadrons depending on how well equipped/funded the unit is.

An armored division (which I’m assuming has 5 tank/cavalry and 5 mech infantry battalions) would have about 72 artillery pieces and multiple rocket launchers, about 36 individual firing units for light SAMs and or AAA, about 290 tanks, and about 290 IFVs or APCs. 24 attack choppers, about 44 utility transport choppers and 16 scout/light choppers. Since you want a lightly equipped military, chances are each division has only about 12-24 transport and recon choppers, most helicopters, especially expensive attack helicopters would be held in separate units to be controlled by higher levels of command then a division.

A mechanized infantry division in the US Army was very similar to the armored division, in fact the only major difference was it had 6 mech infantry battalions and only 4 tank/cavalry divisions. So that changes the tanks to 232 and the IFV/APC total to 348.

Explanation of how I got these numbers follows
The tanks and IFV/APC numbers are easy. Each battalion has 58 tanks or APCs (four companies of 14 + 2 for the battalion headquarters, each company has 4 x 4 vehicle platoons + 2 for the company headquarters). In real life people have actually commonly fielded tank battalions which range from about 40-81 vehicles but 58 is pretty common and used by several western armies.

The figure of 48-72 artillery pieces stems from the need to have four artillery battalions for each division. One battalion supports each of the three maneuver regiments, while the forth is the ‘personal shotgun’ of the divisional commander, though in practice modern communications allow more flexibility then that. Each arty battalion has three batteries, each with 4 or 6 guns or rocket launchers. 4 per battery gives 48 guns total, 6 gives 72. For a short period in the 1980s and early 1990s the US Army was using 8 gun batteries but that’s not typical. Usually only one battalion would have rocket launchers. The rocket launchers may be more or less numerous then the tube artillery pieces. The US Army for example has 9 MLRS per battery in three platoons of three, with three batteries per battalion this gives 27 rocket launchers. The 155mm battalions meanwhile have 6 guns per battery with 3 batteries per battalion for a total of 18. This disparity is because MLRS needs fewer men to operate then a 155mm gun.

For every couple divisions you have, you’d have some Corps and Army level assets for extra firepower. The most important would be artillery brigades with about 72 guns and rocket launchers (possibly of larger then standard caliber) aviation brigades (which may be divided into separate attack/recon and transport brigades) with about 96-180 aircraft each, tactical missile brigades with 12-24 launchers (SCUD sized missiles) and Air Defence Brigades which would have as many as a dozen batteries heavy SAMs like Patriot or S-300, rather then the lighter but more mobile systems deployed within divisions like Avenger Stinger or SA-15. You may also have some kind of armored cavalry regiment (actually big brigades in the US Army), but most nations don’t have such specialists armored formations.

Of these types artillery brigades would be the most common, in fact you may approach a 1 to 1 ratio of divisions + extra artillery brigades, or even exceed it. This would be logical for a light infantry oriented force, a lot of artillery will give it a big boost in effectiveness.

Other kinds of non shooting combat support units include Military Police, Engineers (several different kinds), Signals, Intelligence, Personal (cooks!), Maintenance, Distribution, Finance, UAV, Radar, Chemical Warfare (decontamination mainly, your normal artillery can shoot the chemicals at the enemy) and many others. These units may be anything from platoon to brigade sized depending on what level they serve at. Some may even reach divisional size (Russia loves its engineer and artillery divisions) but that’s just not typical of world militaries to have such huge specialist formations. But anyway, those are the sort of units people DON’T need to think too much about. Well maybe the UAVs…. but really only the big and or armed ones matter.


EDIT: here I found a real nice simply orginziational chart for a WW2 leg infantry division to help illustrate what I've been saying. Totally no frillls without even an attached AA battalion, this is about as minimal as an effective division can be.
http://www.custermen.com/ItalyWW2/ArmyO ... sion85.gif

Yet I'm daunted by actually assigning the points to what I want, even with Beowulf's helpful samples. If worse comes to worse and I can't get it all assigned when the game starts, can I leave my army without an exact OOB listing?

Well figure out how many divisions or equivalents you want to have and we can work from that. This is why I’ve been saying people need to work out a force structure, not details of weapons. We can reasonably approximate numbers of major weapons with some quick math if we know how many units need to be equipped and provided with support. Trying to go from numbers of weapons to how many divisions you could end up with ect... is much harder.

[Steve]

*eyes glaze over*

Um, I've been busy writing lately and have missed developments in this thread, was there some concrete system of drawing up a military that has been decided upon?

[Karmic Knight]

*eyes glaze over*

Um, I've been busy writing lately and have missed developments in this thread, was there some concrete system of drawing up a military that has been decided upon?

There is a thread that is, as far as I know, up to date.
EDIT:
What are patrol boats categorized as?

[Mr Bean]

Thread locked due to length