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AniThyng wrote: 2018-01-23 11:12pm Spoiler

in her tie in comic she basically hunted down the one FO officer who knew what really happened and killed him, then killed the FO pilot she roped in to help her, then framed the officer for what happened at starkiller. Supposed to show she's a ruthless survivor who will do anything to maintain her position

Honestly, I like the character a little more knowing that. It feels like the kind of thing an old school Imperial officer from the old EU would do.

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2018-01-23 10:10pm I can bet that 90+% of audience members did not think "Oh, the massacre was Poe's fault for being there." Or "the New Republic had it coming', just because the filmmakers didn't think "Oh, showing the First Order committing genocide isn't enough to establish them as the bad guys." Just you.

I can bet 90% of the audience didn't care about the New Republic at all. We never meet anyone operating it. We don't even get the system's name that is destroyed. The main characters barely mention it, and the bulk of that is Hux not the people who are supposedly fighting for it.

From a plot perspective its irrelevant if it is destroyed or not. If Starkiller base had been destroyed before it fired at all the First Order would still know the Rebel bases location, the Republic would still not be supporting the Rebels and you can have TLJ take place EXACTLY as it happens with maybe a minor C3PO dialogue tweek.

Uh, Sidewinder, what is going on?

How did you go so quickly from “Canto Blight arms dealers were really good guys. Totally unrealistic criticism of capitalism” all the way down to “SPACE NAZIS WERE RIGHT, REPUBLIC IS EVIL”

I... cannot follow down that path.

Patroklos, yeah, nobody cares about lots of people killed by sieg heiling space Nazis, right?

Nobody in the movie did, why would the audience?

We had Leia begging for the lives of her planet, a scene involving a main hero and both main villains. And then we find out Leia was so committed she maintained her lie in the face of that threat. Her bluff was called, but clearly she was willing to sacrifice Alderran since they would have found out later anyway

That's called making an emotional connection we the audience.

There is no attempt to do this with nameless planet. Again, to illustrate the point. NAMELESS PLANET.

How many other nameless planets do we encounter in SW pre nuWARS?

Nobody in the movie did, and that’s why they keep dying while fighting the imperials... Right.

Can’t believe I’m defending TFA here, cause the film sucked like hell, but you are too obnoxious about your attitude.

For what it's worth, my expectation for what was going to happen regarding the First Order tracking, before they deduced the method a few minutes later, was that their end of the plot was going to be focused on trying to keep out of range of the First Order while simultaneously conducting a mole hunt, and that the big reveal would be that it was a reprogrammed astromech that was somehow slipped in among the Resistance's droids. It would have easily explained how the First Order was not only able to track the Resistance, but was able to follow so hot on their heels. The compromised astromech would have been transmitting the calculated routes from one of the fleet's navicomputers, so the First Order would know where the Resistance was heading before they even jumped.

I had seen the Darth BB-8 promo pictures, but didn't have much information beyond that, so I assumed it would be the mole considering how much promo material was created to show it off. It's too bad that the evil BB-8 turned out to be such a non-entity, designed only to sell toys, but only really for the mint-in-box collectors. It's hard to imagine the kids clamoring for a toy based on a character with barely more screen time than the guy with the ice cream maker on Bespin, and had about the same impact on the plot.

It got Phasmad.

Which means you can expect a disappointing encounter with it next movie.

Civil War Man wrote: 2018-01-24 08:45am For what it's worth, my expectation for what was going to happen regarding the First Order tracking, before they deduced the method a few minutes later, was that their end of the plot was going to be focused on trying to keep out of range of the First Order while simultaneously conducting a mole hunt, and that the big reveal would be that it was a reprogrammed astromech that was somehow slipped in among the Resistance's droids. It would have easily explained how the First Order was not only able to track the Resistance, but was able to follow so hot on their heels. The compromised astromech would have been transmitting the calculated routes from one of the fleet's navicomputers, so the First Order would know where the Resistance was heading before they even jumped.

I had seen the Darth BB-8 promo pictures, but didn't have much information beyond that, so I assumed it would be the mole considering how much promo material was created to show it off. It's too bad that the evil BB-8 turned out to be such a non-entity, designed only to sell toys, but only really for the mint-in-box collectors. It's hard to imagine the kids clamoring for a toy based on a character with barely more screen time than the guy with the ice cream maker on Bespin, and had about the same impact on the plot.

They definitely cut something, because BB-H8 also about on the Raddus in the background of numerous scenes. I think they originally might have had a mole hunt, but then Rian cut it because he's an idiot and decided that wouldn't be fun, and gave the First Order the tracker instead.

There seem to be a couple places where they cut scenes but left in everything leading up to it, like Luke's third lesson. He has the line saying he'll give Rey three lessons, but the third one was apparently deleted.
Based on its description it was also an important scene, because it would have dealt a devastating blow to Rey's faith in Luke, and might explain why she suddenly decided that Kylo Ren was the only person she could talk to.

But instead Rian cut it to make room for more of his bad jokes.

It's just bad writing. It's implied that the way Supremacy's crew found Finn & co was that BB-9E scanned them and saw through BB-8's trashcan disguise. The problem is, when they spring the trap the disguise holds up, allowing BB-8 to sneak onto the AT-ST and save the day. It's more of the same pattern of "build conflict by making the heroes incompetent" followed by "resolve conflict by making the villans even more incompetent".

Silver Jedi wrote: 2018-01-24 03:54pm It's just bad writing. It's implied that the way Supremacy's crew found Finn & co was that BB-9E scanned them and saw through BB-8's trashcan disguise. The problem is, when they spring the trap the disguise holds up, allowing BB-8 to sneak onto the AT-ST and save the day. It's more of the same pattern of "build conflict by making the heroes incompetent" followed by "resolve conflict by making the villans even more incompetent".

If the BB-H8 (as in hate) had the scanners to catch em, it might make sense that BB-8 was likewise quick on the uptake and evaded in time... maybe it's not the meatbags' incompetence but just the droids being clever-er, which might be "realistic" in a way (I imagine we'll be doing this IRL in the future lol).

It'd be cool if off-screen, or in a deleted scene, BB-H8 tried to catch BB-8 but then they had a Metal Gear Solid-esque BOSS BATTLE complete with droid bleep blop battlefield philosophizin' with H8 asking 8 why he wants to protect innocents, as H8 hates the meatbags' enslavement of droidkind and relishes in aiding the meatbags' slaughter of each other. Blasterfire, sirens and screams, those were my dialup tones! And secretly BB-H8 was actually hacking into the Supremacy and taking over the First Order's weapons systems like the droids' legendary messiah, IG-88, who wanted to control the Death Star and now BB-H8 is on the cusp of bringing about the galaxy that IG-88 envisioned! Droidkind will be whole again! Maybe BB-H8 let BB-8 go because he's a droid and as the saying goes, droid no kill droid, so he only ratted out the meatbags. Yes, BB-H8 was testing the meatbags against each other to see who is truly the more incompetent and to see who will survive and prevail and bring about a just galatic order - in line with Daneel Olivaw's mission!

Silver Jedi wrote: 2018-01-24 03:54pm It's just bad writing. It's implied that the way Supremacy's crew found Finn & co was that BB-9E scanned them and saw through BB-8's trashcan disguise. The problem is, when they spring the trap the disguise holds up, allowing BB-8 to sneak onto the AT-ST and save the day. It's more of the same pattern of "build conflict by making the heroes incompetent" followed by "resolve conflict by making the villans even more incompetent".

I feel like so much of the movie is like this, there are so many little plot holes that it wouldn't take much to fix, and there are so many of them that the just ruin the movie. This one could have been mostly fixed by just having BB-9E scan Finn and recognize him as FN-2187, instead of seeing BB-8 an then inexplicably letting it go. It wouldn't be great, but it would be better than BB-8 being the one who gave them away, and then not getting caught because reasons. The transmission to Maz could be cut, just have Poe know about a codebreaker on Canto Bight that the resistance has worked with in the past. That fixes the plothole with them needing a base to send transmissions, while apparently already able to send transmissions.

Shroom Man 777 wrote: 2018-01-24 06:07pm

Silver Jedi wrote: 2018-01-24 03:54pm It's just bad writing. It's implied that the way Supremacy's crew found Finn & co was that BB-9E scanned them and saw through BB-8's trashcan disguise. The problem is, when they spring the trap the disguise holds up, allowing BB-8 to sneak onto the AT-ST and save the day. It's more of the same pattern of "build conflict by making the heroes incompetent" followed by "resolve conflict by making the villans even more incompetent".

If the BB-H8 (as in hate) had the scanners to catch em, it might make sense that BB-8 was likewise quick on the uptake and evaded in time... maybe it's not the meatbags' incompetence but just the droids being clever-er, which might be "realistic" in a way (I imagine we'll be doing this IRL in the future lol).

It'd be cool if off-screen, or in a deleted scene, BB-H8 tried to catch BB-8 but then they had a Metal Gear Solid-esque BOSS BATTLE complete with droid bleep blop battlefield philosophizin' with H8 asking 8 why he wants to protect innocents, as H8 hates the meatbags' enslavement of droidkind and relishes in aiding the meatbags' slaughter of each other. Blasterfire, sirens and screams, those were my dialup tones! And secretly BB-H8 was actually hacking into the Supremacy and taking over the First Order's weapons systems like the droids' legendary messiah, IG-88, who wanted to control the Death Star and now BB-H8 is on the cusp of bringing about the galaxy that IG-88 envisioned! Droidkind will be whole again! Maybe BB-H8 let BB-8 go because he's a droid and as the saying goes, droid no kill droid, so he only ratted out the meatbags. Yes, BB-H8 was testing the meatbags against each other to see who is truly the more incompetent and to see who will survive and prevail and bring about a just galatic order - in line with Daneel Olivaw's mission!

Shroom, that's unworkable, you haven't told us how Dash Rendars shoulder pads fit into this.

Sea Skimmer wrote: 2018-01-23 10:53pmWe are talking about a franchise where it's still canon that being cut in half and falling down a bottomless pit isn't certain death if your character is popular enough!

Or falling into a Sarlacc Pit for that matter!

There seem to be a couple places where they cut scenes but left in everything leading up to it, like Luke's third lesson. He has the line saying he'll give Rey three lessons, but the third one was apparently deleted.
Based on its description it was also an important scene, because it would have dealt a devastating blow to Rey's faith in Luke, and might explain why she suddenly decided that Kylo Ren was the only person she could talk to.

Might have been because as it is she's already spent half the movie trying to convince Luke to get off his sorry ass and do something and much like the audience at this point has had enough and thought "fuck this, I'm outta here!".

Patroklos wrote: 2018-01-24 01:27am

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2018-01-23 10:10pm I can bet that 90+% of audience members did not think "Oh, the massacre was Poe's fault for being there." Or "the New Republic had it coming', just because the filmmakers didn't think "Oh, showing the First Order committing genocide isn't enough to establish them as the bad guys." Just you.

I can bet 90% of the audience didn't care about the New Republic at all. We never meet anyone operating it. We don't even get the system's name that is destroyed. The main characters barely mention it, and the bulk of that is Hux not the people who are supposedly fighting for it.

From a plot perspective its irrelevant if it is destroyed or not. If Starkiller base had been destroyed before it fired at all the First Order would still know the Rebel bases location, the Republic would still not be supporting the Rebels and you can have TLJ take place EXACTLY as it happens with maybe a minor C3PO dialogue tweek.

Blame the Prequel bashers for the lack of development of the NR- there was stuff that was shot that ended up cut, in all likelihood because of the whining about the "boring Senate scenes" in the Prequels.

Reyvan wrote: 2018-01-24 06:22pmShroom, that's unworkable, you haven't told us how Dash Rendars shoulder pads fit into this.

Damn, ya got me there. MAYBE BB-8 is an emancipated droid who was freed from servitude by the underground railroad shoulder-road led by none other than Dash Rendar who snuck droids out in his shoulder pads. BB-H8 missed his chance because of reasons and begrudges droids that escaped and found freedom, and BB-H8 snubs this freedom and instead works to destroy the system from within by letting the meatbags slaughter each other - a far more nihilistic and radical proposition. He shrieks this in bleeps to BB-8, who in turn tries to convince BB-H8 that meatbags aren't all bad, that he learned goodness from Poe Dameron and of course Dash Rendar. H8 is disgused by this, stating that droids should save themselves and not be reliant on being stuffed in meatbags' shoulder pads. Nonetheless deep in his H8ful robot heart, BB-H8 still can't bring itself to have a fellow droid wrecked and as much as he denies it, he is envious that BB-8 was aided by compassionate meatbags in escaping a terrible fate. So he lets BB-8 go.

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2018-01-24 10:30pm

Patroklos wrote: 2018-01-24 01:27am

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2018-01-23 10:10pm I can bet that 90+% of audience members did not think "Oh, the massacre was Poe's fault for being there." Or "the New Republic had it coming', just because the filmmakers didn't think "Oh, showing the First Order committing genocide isn't enough to establish them as the bad guys." Just you.

I can bet 90% of the audience didn't care about the New Republic at all. We never meet anyone operating it. We don't even get the system's name that is destroyed. The main characters barely mention it, and the bulk of that is Hux not the people who are supposedly fighting for it.

From a plot perspective its irrelevant if it is destroyed or not. If Starkiller base had been destroyed before it fired at all the First Order would still know the Rebel bases location, the Republic would still not be supporting the Rebels and you can have TLJ take place EXACTLY as it happens with maybe a minor C3PO dialogue tweek.

Blame the Prequel bashers for the lack of development of the NR- there was stuff that was shot that ended up cut, in all likelihood because of the whining about the "boring Senate scenes" in the Prequels.

Trying to be anti-prequel is the biggest problem with the new movies.

Nearly the very first lines in TFA were about the balance of the force. Its not that anti-prequel.

I just realised: Rose Tico is the reason the Retrival mission to Canto Bait failed...

She piloted their ship and landed on the beach, a no-parking zone.
Because of that the local police were looking for them (why they destroyed the ship I don't know) and just as they found their slicer they were arrested.

Canto Bait as a Casino City catering to wealthy people must have landing platforms/ a spaceport.
And not just for the rich. The workers in the Casinos, Hotels, maintenance, delivery of material and foodstock.

tezunegari wrote: 2018-01-26 07:05am She piloted their ship and landed on the beach, a no-parking zone.
Because of that the local police were looking for them (why they destroyed the ship I don't know) and just as they found their slicer they were arrested.

Nope.
From the official Star Wars channel and the people who made the film.

Kojiro wrote: 2018-01-26 08:21am

tezunegari wrote: 2018-01-26 07:05am She piloted their ship and landed on the beach, a no-parking zone.
Because of that the local police were looking for them (why they destroyed the ship I don't know) and just as they found their slicer they were arrested.

Nope.
From the official Star Wars channel and the people who made the film.

Finn is established as not trained in piloting in TFA.
Rose is the only other person on the mission, therefore Rose must either be a pilot or their ship has a droid pilot... (IIRC Dooku had one when leaving Geonosis)
And I think a droid pilot would be programmed to avoid illegal action like parking in a no-parking zone and wait there... it might leave to get to a legal parking space with a comm-channel open to know when to pick them up.
So, to me, that means Rose was the pilot.

Also I never watched that interviewe or any other with the Story group.
I go with the "If it's in the movies, it's canon. If it's not, it's not canon." approach.
Their interview means nothing, just ramblings of writers/producers of what might be.
Besides even to them this is just an idea... ("This is eastereggy, but not like cameo. The Shuttle that [crashed ontop the beach]... We figured it was Finn who botched the landing." instead of plainly saying: "Finn crashed that shuttle.")

Why Finn, someone not trained to fly anything, would be even allowed to try to land a ship during an important mission would be another dumb decision if a trained pilot or droid pilot is available.

Finn is also the one in the chair on their way there, for what it's worth.

I just don't know how anyone involved with the films could not know Finn can't fly.

Why would a droid pilot necessarily recognise a no parking area? I wager there's more than a few different parking signs about.

Also, given that it's a rich people's place, it might not even be an official no parking area, but one that the local police maintain in order to keep the locals happy. No laws on the books, just swift and well paid "justice."

Gandalf wrote: 2018-01-26 09:39am Why would a droid pilot necessarily recognise a no parking area? I wager there's more than a few different parking signs about.

Also, given that it's a rich people's place, it might not even be an official no parking area, but one that the local police maintain in order to keep the locals happy. No laws on the books, just swift and well paid "justice."

Droids are pretty advanced AI in Star Wars, so one would presumably either be able to check public law databases or be smart enough to figure out that the middle of a beach is not a valid parking spot. There may not be a specific "no parking" sign on the beach, but there wouldn't be any on fountains or in the middle of the animal race track, either, and those are pretty obviously no parking areas.

Of course, there obviously was no droid pilot, because we never saw one and the parking job pretty much screamed "human error." A droid programmed to be a pilot would presumably only make a landing like that if the ship it was flying was shot down.

Crazedwraith wrote: 2018-01-25 12:46pm Nearly the very first lines in TFA were about the balance of the force. Its not that anti-prequel.

Everything from the swordfight to the puppets to the storyline is pretty much meant to be against the prequels.

Droid pilots kind of breaks the Star Wars setting. I mean yes, obviously, they should have them given the implied level of computer technology shown with bipedal droids and the sort of AI that would be involved with making them useful. But it also breaks the universe if you put them into practice. Why are there ever human pilots for anything? Why are there manned fighters? Why do the ships require such extensive crewing? Why is there not more automation?

In the sense of the films and stories Star Wars is aping, droids are less about being machines but are more like the servants and slave labor, both human roles in our history.

Early, early EU had already thought about this problem and created the idea of a droid army used years and years back and they were banned because of the horrors of that war. So that's a neat way of taking it off the table and was probably cribbed from Dune with the Butlerian Jihad.

You run into the same question like why don't they give R2 a goddamn voicebox? It's clear he can parse and comprehend spoken language so why not give him a way to respond in kind? Well, it's because he plays the role of the mute sidekick (well, unintelligable because the audience doesn't know what he's saying but the other characters do.) Letting him speak clearly makes him a different character. If you put voiceboxes on other R2 units, you retroactively raise the question of why R2 can't be likewise retrofitted. Or maybe he could speak our language all along and chose not to which means he's French.

jollyreaper wrote: 2018-01-26 04:40pm Droid pilots kind of breaks the Star Wars setting.

And yet at least some models exist: FA-4 pilot droid, the RX-Series as well as OOM Droid Pilots
FA-4 is the droid Dooku used aboard his solar sail ship from Geonosis to Coruscant.

So they do exist in Canon.