The morality of being a soldier

[Alyrium Denryle]

I don't consider myself an animal at all. Instincts should not influence anyone's behavour.

COngrats you have graduated from insane to stupid.

SO tell me, your instinctual food drive doesnt motivate you at all?

[DPDarkPrimus]

I don't consider myself an animal at all. Instincts should not influence anyone's behavour.

So what are you? Vegatable, fungi, or mineral?

[Sokartawi]

I don't consider myself an animal at all. Instincts should not influence anyone's behavour.

COngrats you have graduated from insane to stupid.

SO tell me, your instinctual food drive doesnt motivate you at all?

Can choose not to eat.

[frigidmagi]

Can choose not to eat.

In which case you will starve to death, way to beat those evvviiilll instincts.

[DPDarkPrimus]

I don't consider myself an animal at all. Instincts should not influence anyone's behavour.

COngrats you have graduated from insane to stupid.

SO tell me, your instinctual food drive doesnt motivate you at all?

Can choose not to eat.

I choose not to eat three meals a day sometimes. But I cannot "choose not to eat" forever. I must eat, or I will die. Eventually one gets so hungry that they are compelled to eat. You cannot override this.

[Sokartawi]

Can choose not to eat.

In which case you will starve to death, way to beat those evvviiilll instincts.

Thus I eat because I make that choice, not because I start an uncontrollable rampage towards the fridge the moment I feel hungry...

[Sokartawi]

Since personality is to a very large degree shaped by the environment one grows up in, a new life is the best hope for salvation this would-be murderer could have.

Disagreed, that person could still develop murderous traits again due to what happened to him last time.

Could and will are two different things. Unless, of course, karma predetermines things to a very large degree, in which case this sutation becomes very peculiar: if karma is truly that deterministic, pretty soon the would-be murderer would have no chance of salvaging himself, all the while being reincarnated to continue his evil acts, so that no one can stop his evil ways! Taken to this extreme of determinism, this 'karma' quite directly perpetuates evil while ignoring the good, as you've implied that good acts do not mend karma previously.

I don't know to what extent things are predetermined by karma. You're right that if it takes too large a role, then it's possible to become trapped in 'evil' ways, a murderer getting killed and getting paranoid and violent in the next life because he's trying to prevent getting killed again, which results in more deaths of others and so on. This could happen on a global scale (and it actually pretty much looks like it at the moment). The only way to stop this is when a large group of souls that have already overcome the particular 'evil' reincarnate on the particular world.

Moreover, even if the intent to kill is what is actually important, killing him before he forms that intent for many more people would obviously be better for his karma, so this effectively changes nothing.

Uhh that does not make any sense to me.

The idea is simple: working in your karma-based morality, if intending to kill one person is bad, intending to kill a lot of people should be proportionally worse. Obviously, then, if the would-be murderer of a small number of people killed before he forms the intent to kill a large amount of people, he would suffer a comparatively lesser penalty to his karma. The fact that you are unwilling to sacrifice a some (a comparative smaller amount!) of your own karma for the (relative) well-being of his means you are acting selfishly.

Unless, of course, there no difference between a soldier who is willing to kill under certain circumstances, but does not, and a Hitler-esque character that planned and was responsible for the deaths of many millions. That position I find ludicrous, but it may be just what you intend. Is it?

Already explained this all before. Even had Hitler in the example.

Hitler in particular is irrelevant; he was merely used as an example of 'evilness'. To clarify, in order to escape the charge of selfishness, one must erase the distinction between someone willing to kill in self-defense (as you prohibit this), but is in all other respects unviolent and of good character, with a someone intending to kill a large amount of people (but to be fair, let's say that this hypothetical person is in all other respects equal, in the sense that he, unlike the real Hitler, has no interest in subverting others to his evil ways, inciting hate, etc.). My question to you is: do you deny this distinction (in the morally relevant sense) or not?

In a way, yes. It doesn't matter much if one or ten or more people get murdered, the murderer overcomes this particular karma when he changes his behavour and decides not to kill anymore. However, he's still indebted in a way to every individual he killed, but this is something that can be corrected with positive actions or when his victims choose to forgive him.

[Sokartawi]

I see you are ignoring this point. Could it be because it's historically verifiable, and you have no effective answer?

Like I said, I still see war, so it hasn't been a solution for the last 10k years or so. Time for something new.

Actually, this statement is so incredibly moronic I had to come back to it. If something doesn't work 100% of the time, it's useless, and should be abandoned.

By this same logic, I could assert that since I still see people dying of cancer, heart disease, stokes, etc. modern medicine is obviously not effective. Time for something new.

Funny that you chose to pick those ailments. On all of those I'd like much more research on what's causing them and how we can prevent them, instead on how to cure them.

[Kuroneko]

In a way, yes. It doesn't matter much if one or ten or more people get murdered, ... .

Ah. In entering this thread, I had a strong feeling that this debate would not have a point. My conviction now is a bit stronger, since it is now apparent you fully accept the conclusion of that reductio ad absurdum, and likely would for any other I could possibly make. Since you do not make a positive argument either, this discussion not only doesn't but cannot have a point. Therefore, I will simply discontinue it.

[Sokartawi]

In a way, yes. It doesn't matter much if one or ten or more people get murdered, ... .

Ah. In entering this thread, I had a strong feeling that this debate would not have a point. My conviction now is a bit stronger, since it is now apparent you fully accept the conclusion of that reductio ad absurdum, and likely would for any other I could possibly make. Since you do not make a positive argument either, this discussion not only doesn't but cannot have a point. Therefore, I will simply discontinue it.

My thanks for your contribution, I honestly appreciated your participation.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Funny that you chose to pick those ailments. On all of those I'd like much more research on what's causing them and how we can prevent them, instead on how to cure them.

Research is being done on how to prevent those. However, you still need to cure those that are already ill. His analogy is still valid.

[CmdrWilkens]

So I'm guessing I can expect no response to thie above?

Please realize that i'm going to start having to PM and pester you by e-mail if you persist in not answering things because I'd like a response or a concession, either one would do.

I'm currently very busy with other things, and the time I do have for myself I rather spend on things I like instead of debating like this, which I hate.

However we might be able to use IM and post the log, that might resolve the whole thing a lot quicker.

My dear friend I don't have the ability to IM at will having a job that takes me away during the week (and like hell am I going to do it over thanksgiving). Anyway more to the point I responded to several statements you made as a counter to each of those points. This was LAST weekend and in that time despite a rash of posts between yourself and others no answering statement has been made. Claiming you don't have time to respond to a post which you've had a week to look over when almost a page worth of posts just since then can be acredited to you is ludicrous in the extreme. Moreover the whole point of this paticualr style of back and forth is that it gives each side time to make reasoned arguments (note the time lapse between most of my posts). If you'd rather conceed the points I made and just focus on your other detractors on this thread then its fine with me otherwise please engage.

[Questor]

I don't consider myself an animal at all. Instincts should not influence anyone's behavour.

So what are you? Vegatable, fungi, or mineral?

Earlier I called her a plant, but now I'm going to have to say she's some sort of fungus.

Sokartawi:

Since you didn't get the subtle hint in one of my previous posts, do you consider it part of a police officer's job to protect civilians?

You still havn'e addressed my point about responsibility for others. Do you acknowledge that, for example, a parent is responsible for the safety of their child?

How do your views on responsibility transfer to EMTs, firefighters, and other emergency personnel?

[Darth Wong]

Let me summarize Sokartawi's position: "this is the way my system works, I know it's fucked-up and based on pretty much nothing except for my personal say-so, but I use it anyway".

Small problem: you cannot show why anyone but yourself should subscribe to this system or believe in the house of cards belief system you need in order to sustain it, so you should not be using it to make public moral judgements about anyone other than yourself, including soldiers.

[Sokartawi]

Please realize that i'm going to start having to PM and pester you by e-mail if you persist in not answering things because I'd like a response or a concession, either one would do.

I'm currently very busy with other things, and the time I do have for myself I rather spend on things I like instead of debating like this, which I hate.

However we might be able to use IM and post the log, that might resolve the whole thing a lot quicker.

My dear friend I don't have the ability to IM at will having a job that takes me away during the week (and like hell am I going to do it over thanksgiving). Anyway more to the point I responded to several statements you made as a counter to each of those points. This was LAST weekend and in that time despite a rash of posts between yourself and others no answering statement has been made. Claiming you don't have time to respond to a post which you've had a week to look over when almost a page worth of posts just since then can be acredited to you is ludicrous in the extreme. Moreover the whole point of this paticualr style of back and forth is that it gives each side time to make reasoned arguments (note the time lapse between most of my posts). If you'd rather conceed the points I made and just focus on your other detractors on this thread then its fine with me otherwise please engage.

I'm not the person to ever concede anything.

I'll see what I can do, but I'm very very busy now, need to fix 2 PCs for customers and also my brother's PC that I have been unable to get connected to the internet for a week now.

The reason why I replied to other people but not you is because the other people required less time, and I found their posts much more interesting as well, especially those by Kuroneko. That's why they got priority.

[DPDarkPrimus]

I'm not the person to ever concede anything.

Which just makes you a fool. It's not like Mike won't concede if he's wrong; it's just that he's intelligent enough not to make comments like yours that are entirely undefensible.

[Sokartawi]

I continue to live because I am hoping for a miracle that changes things.

Why it's a waste:
1) Lack of freedom. Can't live where I want (at least not legally) because everything is owned by someone, and if I want to buy someone out they ask outrageous prices.

Wait so you're sayign you should have the right to displace people already living somewhere simply because you want to live there? Wow that's about the most egotistical reason for calling life a waste I've ever heard.

No I'm not saying that, I just don't like the fact the world is overpopulated, in the way that all land is taken and I can't pack my stuff and start a new nation somewhere else with people I like.

2) People are idiots/sheep. Neighbour has a new kitchen? So what? Why do YOU want a new one too all of the sudden? Not happy with what you got? Then why did you buy it in the first place, idiot...

People are idiots/sheep and you wonder why people might have a dim view of your philosophy? People are complex creatures of emotions, needs, wants, and desires which mix and melt in interactions with each other. That some people seek to simplify this complexity by conforming to trends is a matter of seeking happiness through reduction in decision making. I'd hardly call that being an idiot even if I'd rather experience all of life. I certianly won't criticize people who want to conform to ease their lives because if it makes them happy why have distaste or are you honestly angry that some people can find happiness in a way that you can't?

Because most of the time those people do NOT get happiness from it. They seek to be happy, and they turn to others to tell them what should make them happy, and wonder why it won't work on them. Of course the shops and commercials prey on these people. A friend of mine had parents like this, while she herself was a lot better then that fortunately. When I went there, the parents always had to 'impress' me with the new stuff they bought, and in a way you would find it hard to believe... They actually told that it had been on TV, and asked if I had seen it on TV as well, or that well-known person X also likes to have a green kitchen, so they changed the kitchen... Of course when they have more money again and they see someone else say that red kitchens are trendy, they will completely pull the green kitchen out and change the thing. In the three years I went there, they have had 2 new kitchens, 3 new floorings, and they changed their garden, bedrooms and seats multiple times as well. Oh and they repainted the house once, but that could have had other reasons though I doubt it. The mother had some variant of depression, and the 'father' (not the biological one because the parents got divorced) was heavy alcoholist and smoker, and the mother told me he occasionally used marijuana (no idea why she would tell me that), not to mention he could get very violent.

3) Fashion. Yeah really. What is so cool about black suits and ties? They look fucking ugly, and I can't imagine they are very comfortable either. Sure you can wear what you want, but if you REALLY had a choice I wouldn't think so many people would wear that crap.

Life is a waste because of suits and ties? You honeslty have to be shitting me if one of your top reasons for objecting to the modern world is the freaking clothes a guy wears? Dear lord you need a psych evaluation if you think our society is worthless because of that...and fo the record I look damn good in a suit and its comfortable too.

It's because society forces this kind of uniform on people. Yes, some people like it, but there are also a lot of people that hate them, 3 out of 5 collegues specifically told me they hated it, but they have to wear the crap when at work. Why such a strict society? Why not some diversity? If someone wants to wear robes for example, then why stare at him? The only time we can wear what we want without people staring is at festivals or sci-fi/fantasy events...

4) Lack of purpose. Money doesn't really interest me much because besides computer stuff (I don't buy the most expansive fastest stuff by the way) and the occasional warhammer models there isn't much that I want to buy. Except a house in the middle of nowhere perhaps, but that cost a lot more. Status doesn't interest me either, I don't feel the need to compare myself with anyone else. So in short, capitalism like this is not a very nice place for me since it offers me very little.

So life is worthless because you have no purpose? I again repeat to you that that is a sad sad outlook on life and I'd suggest that you find something that you enjoy doing and just do it because otherwise you're gonna end up lying in a gutter somewhere. Seriously you needs some help or a big bear hug because that's a very sad outlook on life.

I sorta like my computer, that's why I spend at least 60 hours a week sitting behind a screen if I get the chance. Those do not include the hours at work, which are another 40 or so. I want to make games, but I'm a crap programmer and I don't think my kind of games would sell, you'd all think I'm the second Derek Smart or something (not got much experience with his games though, battlecruiser kept crashing on my machine so returned it)

Also some other reasons but can always spew more later.

Feel free to tell me but if the first three reasons are all your objections that's pretty weak and a repitition of the fact that you find your life directionless just reinforces the validity of my suggestion that you get yourself a big bear hug and a trip to a counselor.

Had multiple counselors and they said I was fine, just very different.

[Mrs Kendall]

Attention everyone

Just a general announcement to everyone who may have gotten annoyed with me fighting with the bitch... I finally convinced my husband to stop posting in response to the bitch so there should be no more fights between me and the bitch.

I'm sorry to everyone who we've affected in doing this. I just couldn't let it go cause it affected me and my childrens moods when Cpl Kendall would get all worked up about what the bitch had to say.

Thanks for all your patience and understanding.

[Alyeska]

Mrs Kendall, I know you don't like Shakkara (I'm none to fond of her myself), but please give it a rest. Frankly I am getting sick and tired of your bickering and then getting an earful from Shakkara over ICQ. Give it a rest. Shakkara knows your opinion of her, and so does the rest of the board. If you don't stop these actions I regret bad things might happen to you, and I don't want to see that happen.

[Mrs Kendall]

Hey Hey Hey, Calm down, I wasn't saying those things to have people get mad at me or anything like that. I was trying to say that it was the end of it. But whatever dude, I think you need to relax.

[Mrs Kendall]

Ok that's it, I have to say this before anyone else jumps down my throat. Sorry, I was out of line telling you that you need to relax, I just need to leave this thread alone, I just can't seem to keep a clear head when writing stuff here, my anger towards her just jumps out through my fingers and that's the only way I can describe it. I admit, maybe I shouldn't have said "the bitch" so many times but she just infuriates me. I'm not entering this thread again and if somehow things get out of hand between my husband and her I will just deal with it in another way. IE: Through PMing her or something, no I didn't mean I would kill her. I do appoligize again for falling out of line and hope that you and others can forgive me for venting my anger towards her in such a public place. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

[Alyeska]

No hard feelings. And now I am going to say calm down. Some times you need to step back and relax.

[Mrs Kendall]

I am calm. But thanks

[Mrs Kendall]

Oops I forgot this place doesn't have edit buttons... I am normally calm, I just have trouble in this thread hence the reason this will be my last post here.

[CmdrWilkens]

I continue to live because I am hoping for a miracle that changes things.

Why it's a waste:
1) Lack of freedom. Can't live where I want (at least not legally) because everything is owned by someone, and if I want to buy someone out they ask outrageous prices.

Wait so you're sayign you should have the right to displace people already living somewhere simply because you want to live there? Wow that's about the most egotistical reason for calling life a waste I've ever heard.

No I'm not saying that, I just don't like the fact the world is overpopulated, in the way that all land is taken and I can't pack my stuff and start a new nation somewhere else with people I like.

Well that's more than a bit selfish. You are saying life is a waste, in toher words it isn't worth living, because you can't just pack up and start a new country with people you like? I'll bet you right now there is plenty of real estate in the middle of the sahara and the arabian deserts no one wants, same with the mojave and a couple other palces. You seem to be just preaching down that it is so horrible that other people, who don't agree with your worldview, happen to live in places you would want to. Honestly this should be in the dictionary definition of selfish.

2) People are idiots/sheep. Neighbour has a new kitchen? So what? Why do YOU want a new one too all of the sudden? Not happy with what you got? Then why did you buy it in the first place, idiot...

People are idiots/sheep and you wonder why people might have a dim view of your philosophy? People are complex creatures of emotions, needs, wants, and desires which mix and melt in interactions with each other. That some people seek to simplify this complexity by conforming to trends is a matter of seeking happiness through reduction in decision making. I'd hardly call that being an idiot even if I'd rather experience all of life. I certianly won't criticize people who want to conform to ease their lives because if it makes them happy why have distaste or are you honestly angry that some people can find happiness in a way that you can't?

Because most of the time those people do NOT get happiness from it. They seek to be happy, and they turn to others to tell them what should make them happy, and wonder why it won't work on them. Of course the shops and commercials prey on these people. A friend of mine had parents like this, while she herself was a lot better then that fortunately. When I went there, the parents always had to 'impress' me with the new stuff they bought, and in a way you would find it hard to believe... They actually told that it had been on TV, and asked if I had seen it on TV as well, or that well-known person X also likes to have a green kitchen, so they changed the kitchen... Of course when they have more money again and they see someone else say that red kitchens are trendy, they will completely pull the green kitchen out and change the thing. In the three years I went there, they have had 2 new kitchens, 3 new floorings, and they changed their garden, bedrooms and seats multiple times as well. Oh and they repainted the house once, but that could have had other reasons though I doubt it. The mother had some variant of depression, and the 'father' (not the biological one because the parents got divorced) was heavy alcoholist and smoker, and the mother told me he occasionally used marijuana (no idea why she would tell me that), not to mention he could get very violent.

Well lets see here.

1) Did you ever ask this family if they were happy with the new floors/kitchen? If you did I bet you they told you yes.

2) Happiness is an experience...not a permanent thing. Perhaps I should reiterate this to you:
HAPPINESS IS NOT PERMANENT

3) Just because they had other problems (and being a person who suffers from clinical depression myself) does not mean they canot experience happiness. I myself have experienced many happy periods, some of them even while I was in Iraq despite smoking heavily and drinking anytime I could get my hands on alcohol. Most people would say the later two items idicate a problem but what was also true was my ability to experience happiness despite those problems.

4) If I had said "joy" instead of "happiness" would you still have brought me this diatribe?

3) Fashion. Yeah really. What is so cool about black suits and ties? They look fucking ugly, and I can't imagine they are very comfortable either. Sure you can wear what you want, but if you REALLY had a choice I wouldn't think so many people would wear that crap.

Life is a waste because of suits and ties? You honeslty have to be shitting me if one of your top reasons for objecting to the modern world is the freaking clothes a guy wears? Dear lord you need a psych evaluation if you think our society is worthless because of that...and fo the record I look damn good in a suit and its comfortable too.

It's because society forces this kind of uniform on people. Yes, some people like it, but there are also a lot of people that hate them, 3 out of 5 collegues specifically told me they hated it, but they have to wear the crap when at work. Why such a strict society? Why not some diversity? If someone wants to wear robes for example, then why stare at him? The only time we can wear what we want without people staring is at festivals or sci-fi/fantasy events...

Lets get this straight, an enforced uniform for WORK makes life a waste?

Do you understand the concept that work is...WORK. You have to put effort and sometimes discomfort into it in order to recieve compensation and , hopefully, some reward. Do you not understand the concept of putting something in in order to get something out? I won't even get into how a great deal of jobs out there do not require a suit and tie (nor a dress). Hell being a Marine requries it only on ceremonial occasions and those are relatively rare actually. Anyway, there is no such thing as getting something for free, some work has to go into it and if you think life is a waste because you might wear slightly uncomfortable clothes to work then that is sad. Let me repeat my disbelief:

You are claiming that life is not worth living because of wearing discomforting clothes to certain jobs?

4) Lack of purpose. Money doesn't really interest me much because besides computer stuff (I don't buy the most expansive fastest stuff by the way) and the occasional warhammer models there isn't much that I want to buy. Except a house in the middle of nowhere perhaps, but that cost a lot more. Status doesn't interest me either, I don't feel the need to compare myself with anyone else. So in short, capitalism like this is not a very nice place for me since it offers me very little.

So life is worthless because you have no purpose? I again repeat to you that that is a sad sad outlook on life and I'd suggest that you find something that you enjoy doing and just do it because otherwise you're gonna end up lying in a gutter somewhere. Seriously you needs some help or a big bear hug because that's a very sad outlook on life.

I sorta like my computer, that's why I spend at least 60 hours a week sitting behind a screen if I get the chance. Those do not include the hours at work, which are another 40 or so. I want to make games, but I'm a crap programmer and I don't think my kind of games would sell, you'd all think I'm the second Derek Smart or something (not got much experience with his games though, battlecruiser kept crashing on my machine so returned it)

So do data processing, or become a SysAdmin, or do something related to computers. I again repeat that you have to put effort into the things you like and if you can find purpose and enjoyment with computers then by God (singualr and non-denominational) go hit that field because the outlook you gave of no purpose is really a sad story which, all hostility aside, would make me think you need a bear hug for comfort.

Also some other reasons but can always spew more later.

Feel free to tell me but if the first three reasons are all your objections that's pretty weak and a repitition of the fact that you find your life directionless just reinforces the validity of my suggestion that you get yourself a big bear hug and a trip to a counselor.

Had multiple counselors and they said I was fine, just very different.

Well keep talking to them and ask them for a nice hug every now and then because of my disbelief in your position that life is worhtless you need it.