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Master of Ossus wrote:Also, Surlethe managed to save part of the TFN Community Sound-Off thread.

I'm reasonably sure he'd be happy to have you republish it.

By all means, republish it. My geocities site probably doesn't have enough bandwidth to reliably host it, anyway.

Lord Poe wrote:

Master of Ossus wrote:Wayne, what did the member who she banned say?

He said: " Must...resist....criticizing Traviss...." in her blog quotes. Then Traviss made a call to her suck up. Moose earlier blocked his blog because he dared say anything about Traviss. So Moose labelled him a troll, and banned him. All can be found here:

+http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... 5&tstart=0

By accident, I stumbled across this Wookieepedia profile:
+http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/User:Cull_Tremayne

Could he have a point? Have anyone noticed if criticism towards other authors is more accepted over at the OS forums? (It wouldn't surprise me with the absurd and unrightful banning of the user who posted a joke in Traviss' blog comments.)

Cull_Tremayne wrote:It's absolutely mind-boggling to me that I can insult Vonda N. McIntyre to no end on the official site and no one will say a thing to me, but if I even think about criticizing Karen Traviss' work, I'm likely to be banned from the site. Biased much?

This guy's right. Criticism of other authors (especially Saxton) and their works seems to be ok on a lot of forums. The TFN retards might jump in to defend WEG/novel minimalism, but I don't remember anyone ever calling me "Talifan" and telling me that I shouldn't be so insulting to the authors or their books. Unlike other authors, Traviss has built up a subset of fanboy asskissers to back her up.

I looked for the example he mentioned (Vonda N. McIntyre) and one member wrote the following in the thread Bad Things in the EU:

The roll of toilet paper known as The Crystal Star.

Source: +http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... &start=420

It recieved cheers from other members, but where were the moderators (i.e. Dark Moose) then? That's far worse than anyone have said about Karen Traviss' works.



EDIT: Great, Lord Poe! I hope that you'll have time to flesh it out!

Karen Traviss wrote:f***cktards

How many letters are in fucktards?

Now, attention-by-trashing sells books for me

Well, that explains a lot of her attitude. She's deliberately provoking people to use as redshirts in later works.

Apart from Harlan Ellison, I know almost no writers who call the TTTs on it

Most of the Baen authors I know will redshirt people. It's usually a friendly thing (tossing in friends as guest characters until they die), but particularly gruesome deaths are (from what I'm told) occasionally from someone irritating them.

But I've come from a trade where nasty is part of the job description

That's odd. Mike Williamson and I have had arguments online, but we've always managed to agree to disagree (I fear we each believe the other is hopelessly utopian). Wen Spencer and I have never fought each other despite my offering some criticism of her work. Hell, I've worked as a proofreader for short stories that've been published - do I seem like a nasty person?

Now, the social inadequates who flame and troll authors do exactly the same to other fans.

Did someone say flaming fans is a sign of social inadequacy? Pot calling kettle, pot calling kettle, come in, kettle.

Damn, all that from one LJ post.

Maybe... she meant to say fooocktards? 3 "o" for 3 million clOnes?

Stas Bush wrote:Maybe... she meant to say fooocktards? 3 "o" for 3 million clOnes?

Could be. Maybe it's just that her math issues extend down to single digits.

Well, if Traviss is either to stupid or too proud to admit to making a mistake (which anyone who has taken a look at Coruscant would realize), I guess I won't be spending any money on her books anytime soon.

I'm kinda concerned about the legacy books, if she makes mistakes like that....

I've already gotten VERY selective about which SW material to buy. I was thinking about checking out the Republic Commando books before I saw Traviss' online antics. Now, I'm damned if she's getting money from me.

The difference isn't the stupid minimalism itself, but the context. Labyrinth of Evil had the retarded 1.2 million number, but didn't dwell on it (also referring to it as the "original army" and showcasing enough Coruscant security troops to pretty much dash the idea anyway) and Outbound Flight had shitty little ships taking on a TF fleet because Thrawn's just so terribly smart.

The difference is, these were GOOD READS, and the authors involved haven't, to my knowledge, degenerated into paranoid lunatics who openly insult Star Wars fans who don't "get in line" behind them. "Odds" was just a terrible work on every level, existing only or her self-aggrandizement and failing to tell any sort of decent story to justify its existance beyond the "retcon."

The difference is, these were GOOD READS, and the authors involved haven't, to my knowledge, degenerated into paranoid lunatics who openly insult Star Wars fans who don't "get in line" behind them

Tim Zahn never did.

He's my favorite author. Even if his "dreadnoughts" are small and few. At least he understands that cloning on a Galactic scale means turning out clones at a "per hours" rate. And damn, his books are one of the best SW reads ever. His characters, his plots... His Thrawn and Mara Jade.

More than that, he accepted full responsibility for what he wrote, instead of shouting "LFL made me do it" as if he's some slave-girl. In one of the interviews he was asked about his mistakes and some minor "out of prequel" details in the TT (like Pellaeon serving for helluvalot of years and other). He replied that LFL only told him to keep the events of Clone Wars and etc. off-hands, i.e. make up no "versions" of the Wars, but the rest was all up to him.

How very, very different is that from KT, now that she tried to hide behind LFL's back and cry "numbers came from on high".

And Zahn - at least he admits it openly - tries to keep stuff consistent at least between his own books. But he never said anything like "I'd like to reinterpret George's concept of Clone Wars". Traviss just did.

Hell, we're comparing a self-absorbed reporter who thinks she's a military "know-how" gal to a Hugo-level writer. That's very illustrative. Zahn just doesn't give a fuck and takes responsibility for his work. He's also not really into fan contact, not surprising with his level he's a bit like GL himself, and his Thrawn Cycle stands very separate in quality from the rest of EU, also in terms of self-reliance. Traviss surronds herself with asslickers and churns out POOR stories with no point other than simply "retconning" George's vision into her own.

She's a loser. Big time.

Here're more death threats sent by Karen's defenders against one of her detractors.

Ku Qlaani wrote:

Quiet_Mandalorian wrote:This is the sort of thing I'm complaining about. In the course of my interactions on the boards here, I've never stooped to the level of calling someone an "idiot" or "idiotic", "childish", or, God forbid, a "w***er", etc, no matter how stupid I thought their positions or their arguments were. It's just common courtesy.

No, you just talked about wanting to "hunt down" those who criticised Karen, described me as your "first target" and went into great detail about how you'd kill Sharky if you were a mandalorian, which Im sure was all fun and games to you and your little gang but it was off-topic, childish and idiotic, this isn't flaming or baiting, this is my opinion, and quite probably the opinion of any rational person who might have read all that crap. Your accusations are, as always, baseless, in fact you don't seem to have a point, you just claim I keep proving it.

From: +http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 957120/p11

A few posts later from the same thread:

Quiet_Mandalorian wrote:

Master_of_Ossus wrote:I wasn't going to get involved in this, but am I reading this right that you think posting DEATH THREATS (even in jest) against other members is better than flaming them, provided that you post them about nearly all members?

Yep.

Commander5052 wrote:

Master_of_Ossus wrote:

Commander5052 wrote:...I've got 20 creds saying the2ndquest will delete the past few posts like on the ARC Thread.
And Q-K, Fandos have their own ways of having fun. They just might seem childish to you since you're not a Fando.

Look, if you guys seriously think that posting DEATH THREATS against people is fun, then I don't know how you can argue that flaming others is such a bad thing. Posting death threats violates multiple parts of the TOS agreement, specifically sections against posting hateful and threatening messages, and that forbid the posting of materials that encourage conduct constituting criminal offenses. It also constitutes a criminal offense in and of itself in many areas. I'm not trying to play mod, here, but IMO such activities cross the line on multiple levels. Other users on this very thread have also posted their opinions that posting death threats should be outlawed--and I fully agree with them. I don't think that such materials belong anywhere near ANY threads--particularly ones that are trying to promote civility and tolerance on the boards.

Ossus, I, a. Am not the one who posted a death threat, and b. That's what we do at the ARC Thread. I once called something Ryan Kaufman had written corny, and he said, I quote, "I will be dispatching Ordo. You will soon hear your doorbell. I reccomend you make peace with the Force before answering it.

I do apologize for me and my fellow Fandos offending you, though.

Emphasis mine.

So that's typical fando culture? Well, nuff said. "The followers are well worth their God".

IT LIVES!!!!!

http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/swds/talifa ... issty.html

Comments please, before it goes "live". Some of the graphics may take a bit to load; they are .bmps... I'll have to wait 'till I get home to properly optimize them.

The movie, which I assume to be "Talifans!", isn't working. Still, good stuff.

I like the title; and, overall, I think it's a well-done job. I especially enjoyed the exchange between Master of Ossus and Ms Traviss.

One thought:

Karen Traviss wrote:Where: eW = energy available (in watts)

You could equate this to Timothy Jones, couldn't you?

Darth Yoshi wrote:The movie, which I assume to be "Talifans!", isn't working. Still, good stuff.

Yeah, I don't know why everything isn't loading. Geocities must be doing maintinence or something.

What an unpleasant person.

Darth Yoshi wrote:The movie, which I assume to be "Talifans!", isn't working. Still, good stuff.

Works fine for me.

And I love the disclaimer at the end. "Coincidental" indeed.

Good show!

Lord Poe wrote:IT LIVES!!!!!

http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/swds/talifa ... issty.html

Comments please, before it goes "live". Some of the graphics may take a bit to load; they are .bmps... I'll have to wait 'till I get home to properly optimize them.

Good job man. I don't get involved in these kinds of debates because evidentally many, more capable than I, are already doing that. But still, the fact you're doing it is something to be commended.

Lord Poe wrote:IT LIVES!!!!!

http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/swds/talifa ... issty.html

Comments please, before it goes "live". Some of the graphics may take a bit to load; they are .bmps... I'll have to wait 'till I get home to properly optimize them.

Overall, well done. It does get to heart of the matter(as does MoO's debate with her...gotta love that "It's fun to attack a woman!" line she does throw out), that she has attacked and ignored other authors and claims that she's right in her cause and obviously everyone disagreeing are misogynist pigs.

What is sad is really none of this would happen if she would for but one second see that 3 million wouldn't work in if we invaded China, let alone the scale she's going for. Instead she ties everything to 3 million and tries to actually state that Lucas is off his rocker and really this is all one giant scam by Palpatine.

Here's a question I'd like her to give a straight answer to:
How many clone troopers are needed to completely secure an average planet?

Just a number, no other bullshit. 20,000? A million? How many?

One planet of Earthlike population with a moderately restive population would completely devour the whole resources of the Clone Army a dozen times over. As with Star Trek troop counts, the only explanation of this can be total and utter ignorance of military matters.

For perspective one might throw this number at her--the Netherlands has a potential conscription pool of 2.8 million men. Of course, total mobilization would have severe negative results on the Dutch economy, but in an extreme emergency (say, an invasion by the Grand Army of the Republic), one of the Earth's smaller nations can nearly match the entire clone army in numbers.

The CIA World Factbook is a very fun tool in this context, with it's mobilization potential figures.

You'll never get a straight answer, if she needs to lower numbers she'll just make some story of 2 leet mando's sabotaging an entire planet. We all know droids with brittle sabotaged armour don't fire back they just stand there and get punished by commandos.

Meest wrote:You'll never get a straight answer, if she needs to lower numbers she'll just make some story of 2 leet mando's sabotaging an entire planet.

Things are really bad when sarcastic insults like this are not so far off from the real thing. One of the bullshit arguments raised by the fandos has been that one RC squad captured an entire planet by themselves in one of Traviss's books. From what I've read, this isn't actually the case, but the fanboys, and possibly authorial intent sees it that way.

From the other thread, I did a quick count of the clonetrooper formations. Assuming my eyesight wasn't totally off, it looked like the large boxes are formations of 24 rows and 24 files, and there looked to be 31 of the formations clearly visible. This works out to just over 17,000 troopers, plus a few for the smaller formations at the front of the large groups (command groups?). This would be just over half a percent of the entire army for a long drawn-out war gathered to board 22 out of over 1000000 troop ships for the war.

Anyone else see a little scaling problem here? Just to match the number of troop ships built would require a planned number of clones of over 775 million, assuming no garrisoning of troops, replacement of casualties, and re-use of ships. With even minimal garrisons, we're easily over the billion mark for troopers. Looking at the casualties from the Battle of Geonosis, where it looks like a third of the force may have been eliminated, figuring that the units were already "flash-trained" to be experienced, and that Geonosis was a major battle but on a minor, relatively poorly armed world, we're looking at probably needing another billion just to replace casualties over the course of the war.

Jim Raynor wrote:

Meest wrote:You'll never get a straight answer, if she needs to lower numbers she'll just make some story of 2 leet mando's sabotaging an entire planet.

Things are really bad when sarcastic insults like this are not so far off from the real thing. One of the bullshit arguments raised by the fandos has been that one RC squad captured an entire planet by themselves in one of Traviss's books. From what I've read, this isn't actually the case, but the fanboys, and possibly authorial intent sees it that way.

Oh, they did undermine the CIS' military hold on a world (admittedly with the help of a Jedi padawan, and some space support).

Of course, it was a nowhere, Outer Rim farming world with only a handful of real settlements, ruled by some petty, no-name Neimiodian businessman, and controlled by "rogue Mandalorian" or something like that, with the assistance of a few untrained mercs and a small detachment of battle droids. Truly, such a fortess makes the Neimoidian purse worlds seem like worthless specks.

Sometimes, I'm not sure who's worse; Traviss, or her drones.