LongVin wrote:Also I am quite intelligent, I just follow a realistic model of politics and believe in America First policies.
Realistic in what world?
And a <insert country here> First policy would only work as long as that country is in a position to force others to go along with it. A position that is not carved in stone, if history is any indicator. So sooner or later, the countries who kept quiet for political expedience might remember the things they had to swallow and may see to retaliate in kind.
Just ignoring everyone else on the planet is not quite the most intelligent strategy to adopt.
Great Dolphin Conspiracy - Chatter box
"Implications: we have been intercepted deliberately by a means unknown, for a purpose unknown, and transferred to a place unknown by a form of intelligence unknown. Apart from the unknown, everything is obvious." ZORAC GALE Force Euro Wimp Human dignity shall be inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all state authority.
LongVin wrote:
And I never said it was morally right for them to beat the prisoners. I just said it should be excused.
That's such a relief. 'Okay, it's morally reprehensible, and it's illegal as hell, but that doesn't mean we should, y'know, actually do something about it.'
Well, other than the LongVin definition of do something about it which is cover it up best as you can.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
LongVin wrote:no Objective Morality is something that is completely independent of human thought. In light of a better term it would be like a morality put down by God "Thou shall not kill"
Subjective Morality would be changing that and going "Thou shall not kill except groups XYZ." Now even if everyone believes "Thou shall not kill except groups XYZ" it is still subjective because its a product of a human mind that is just applied on a large scale. Objective Morality is something that cant be changed basic human instinct says its wrong to kill people but by a way a person is brought up it can be tweaked and changed though the fundamental stays the same.
Oh so a fundie to huh. Gets better and better.
You know, "thou shalt not kill" is not exclusive to religion.
How can an idea be independent of human thought when humans have to think it for it to exist?
When you use subjective and objective in a debate, subjective means unquantifiable and unverfiable independently and objective means quantifiable and qualifiable and evidence existing. I thought this was obvious but I guess not, you prefer to use the moron's definition of subjective and objective to mean whether something is "fundamental" that isn't in any dictionary I know of.
And I never said it was morally right for them to beat the prisoners. I just said it should be excused.
In other words, in LongVin land, who cares about morals as long as America wins. So you are morally bankrupt, congratulations.
LongVin wrote:
And I never said it was morally right for them to beat the prisoners. I just said it should be excused.
And at which point, in your world, would immoral behaviour not be excused but penalised?
It doesn't take much to make up a flimsy excuse.
After all, them Jews were racial impure. So, killing them should be excused...
Great Dolphin Conspiracy - Chatter box
"Implications: we have been intercepted deliberately by a means unknown, for a purpose unknown, and transferred to a place unknown by a form of intelligence unknown. Apart from the unknown, everything is obvious." ZORAC GALE Force Euro Wimp Human dignity shall be inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all state authority.
LongVin wrote:no Objective Morality is something that is completely independent of human thought. In light of a better term it would be like a morality put down by God "Thou shall not kill"
Subjective Morality would be changing that and going "Thou shall not kill except groups XYZ." Now even if everyone believes "Thou shall not kill except groups XYZ" it is still subjective because its a product of a human mind that is just applied on a large scale. Objective Morality is something that cant be changed basic human instinct says its wrong to kill people but by a way a person is brought up it can be tweaked and changed though the fundamental stays the same.
Oh so a fundie to huh. Gets better and better.
You know, "thou shalt not kill" is not exclusive to religion.
How can an idea be independent of human thought when humans have to think it for it to exist?
When you use subjective and objective in a debate, subjective means unquantifiable and unverfiable independently and objective means quantifiable and qualifiable and evidence existing. I thought this was obvious but I guess not, you prefer to use the moron's definition of subjective and objective to mean whether something is "fundamental" that isn't in any dictionary I know of.
And I never said it was morally right for them to beat the prisoners. I just said it should be excused.
In other words, in LongVin land, who cares about morals as long as America wins. So you are morally bankrupt, congratulations.
Brian
*sigh* yes just because I make a mention to religion that makes me a fundie.
And once again I stated that in war morals must take a backseat to victory. You don't win wars by being all rainbows, flowers and sunshine.
Objective can be defined as a Universal Truth no matter what it can never be changed.
LongVin wrote:
And I never said it was morally right for them to beat the prisoners. I just said it should be excused.
And at which point, in your world, would immoral behaviour not be excused but penalised?
It doesn't take much to make up a flimsy excuse.
After all, them Jews were racial impure. So, killing them should be excused...
I stated before that it can be execused as an isolated incident if it becomes a chronic problem the internal discplinary action should be taken.
LongVin wrote:*sigh* yes just because I make a mention to religion that makes me a fundie.
Why mention it then.
And once again I stated that in war morals must take a backseat to victory. You don't win wars by being all rainbows, flowers and sunshine.
Proof that Abu Ghraib or the recent British beatings helps you win the war then? No?
Objective can be defined as a Universal Truth no matter what it can never be changed.
Only in Longfuck land. And I remind you what started this semantic whoring spat,
ShortBrain wrote:There is objective morality but subjective morality in the long run can be more powerful since it can constantly be applied to the populace.
...you not understanding that subjective means it cannot be applied consistently to anything.
Putting values aside to gain victory seems like a great idea, especially when the entire fucking reason we fought the war was to endorse and spread a value.
"If one needed proof that a guitar was more than wood and string, that a song was more than notes and words, and that a man could be more than a name and a few faded pictures, then Robert Johnson’s recordings were all one could ask for."
"If one needed proof that a guitar was more than wood and string, that a song was more than notes and words, and that a man could be more than a name and a few faded pictures, then Robert Johnson’s recordings were all one could ask for."
And once again I stated that in war morals must take a backseat to victory.
Oh! That does sound familiar. "I relieve you of the chimaera called conscience". "Conscience is a Jewish invention. Once this conscience is swept..."
So, did really morals "took a backseat to victory", or because of highly amoral conduct of war this "nice" person quoted above fucked up real big, turned the entire world against him and got his country turned into ashes? Or was that some kind of big victory I never knew about?
You don't win wars by being all rainbows, flowers and sunshine.
True. But you certainly lose wars by being a total ass.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...
...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Elfdart wrote:But what if those who swear they'll keep it secret have their fingers crossed behind they backs?
But that would be immoral!
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
LongVin wrote:*sigh* yes just because I make a mention to religion that makes me a fundie.
Why mention it then.
And once again I stated that in war morals must take a backseat to victory. You don't win wars by being all rainbows, flowers and sunshine.
Proof that Abu Ghraib or the recent British beatings helps you win the war then? No?
Objective can be defined as a Universal Truth no matter what it can never be changed.
Only in Longfuck land. And I remind you what started this semantic whoring spat,
ShortBrain wrote:There is objective morality but subjective morality in the long run can be more powerful since it can constantly be applied to the populace.
...you not understanding that subjective means it cannot be applied consistently to anything.
Brian
Because of was thinking of something that could be considered a universal truth. And that was one of the first things that popped into my head.
Now before you make a fuss about it I'll revise my example of a universal truth:
Math. Math has always existed and always will. If Humans weren't here math would still exist in the workings of the universe. People just discover the principles of math they can't create them they can only discover what already exists. Making it Objective and independant from Human thought. No matter what you can't change the laws of math.
Now say hypothetically I somehow convinced everyone in the world 2+2 doesn't equal 4 but it really equals 5 because of <insert weird reason here> and everyone believes it. Now forget the fact society would collapse because of this. But even if everyone believed 2+2=5 it would still only be subjective because it is purely a product of the human mind. 2+2 will always has always equaled 4 even if no one believes it.
also obviously you have never heard the phrase "those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them."
The British built concentration camps during the Beor war.
the public backlash was enormous.
if your supposed to be a democracy, and trying to win hearts and minds, you don't go acting like a fuckin tin pot facist.
The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
Sigh... just got back from a week-long clas at Camp Parks and this is what I find.
LongVin, I was in a position to work with a unit that captured and processed many Iraqi prisoners. We were not the jailers so I cannot account for what went on there; we were the ones that respond to tip-offs and did the "door knocker" missions, processed the detainees (processed as in did the paperwork, not whupped the shit out of them) and then turned them over to the Intel guys, who later would give them to the prisons.
We found that the vast majority of guys that the team got called out on were not insurgents or even dangerous, they were guys that belonged to a political party, religious faction or tribe that someone else didn't like. Or they looked at somone's wife wrong. So they drop a dime, call the Americans and give an anonymous tip thet "this guy has explosives in his house."
We did, on occassion, find and capture people who were engaged in actual terrorism. All detainees were blindfolded and had their hands tied behind their back and that was it as far as our involvement was concerned. They were not allowed to talk amongst themselves.
Regardless of whether the asshole was guilty or not, that kind of treatment shown in the photos is indefensible. You cannot say "we're going in to stop abuse" only to replace it with a different kind of abuse. It makes our position weak and the war longer by validating everything that the fundamentalist Imams have been saying about us. It makes my job more dangerous and my young Soldiers have a harder time as a result.
So your own position is, I think, indefensible. You can be a "smart guy" but in a world where highy-educated chemical engineers have been used to slaughter millions being a "smart guy" does not mean much in the arena of right and wrong. You may not be a Nazi yourself, but people like you make Nazis possible. Enjoy your time on Earth.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around! If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!! Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Longvin: since you believe that morality is subjective, you must not agree with the underlying assumption of all good ethical codes-that human life has value. Congratulations on being a worthless asshole.
wolveraptor wrote:Fixed for you - Kev
You're a kind soul. I'll remember to sacrifice an infant to Moloch so He may bless you.
"If one needed proof that a guitar was more than wood and string, that a song was more than notes and words, and that a man could be more than a name and a few faded pictures, then Robert Johnson’s recordings were all one could ask for."
