StarDestroyer.Net BBS

On the TFN side, Kudzu just switched sides! He's now arguing with razzy1319!

Kudzu wrote:Your reply to my post was little short of absolutely pathetic and meaningless, razzy.

It is impossible to defend a galaxy with three million soldiers and somehow use eleven thousand or so (being generous and counting in eight hundred or so Clone Intelligence agents) specforce commandoes to completely sabotage the enemy armies until three million soldiers have some semblence of beating them. The Republic held its own in a hotly contested, neck-and-neck war for three years and had well enough soldiers left over to hunt down and destroy the most elite warriors in the known galaxy (the Jedi), secure all remaining Confederacy worlds, deal with early rebellion, and provide planetary security for every Imperial-held world.

We're talking something that is not humanly possible. You can't defend a backwater system with a single clone trooper, and that's how thin they would be spread if they were solely on defensive duty. And we haven't even gotten into vehicle, fighter, and starship crewing yet.

The simplest argument is that if we scale down a million-system civilization to our own little planet Earth, we have a scaling factor of (obviously) at least a million to one. Ergo, this 3-million man clone army would be tantamount to one Earth nation expecting to invade and occupy every other nation on Earth with ... 3 men.

Darth Wong wrote:The simplest argument is that if we scale down a million-system civilization to our own little planet Earth, we have a scaling factor of (obviously) at least a million to one. Ergo, this 3-million man clone army would be tantamount to one Earth nation expecting to invade and occupy every other nation on Earth with ... 3 men.

I've attempted to use that argument, Mike. They just... don't... get it. And that's really sad. The numbers we're given would really require for one soldier to be able to take on everyone on the entire planet... six BILLION to one. It's just not possible for such an invasion to take place.

Master of Ossus wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:The simplest argument is that if we scale down a million-system civilization to our own little planet Earth, we have a scaling factor of (obviously) at least a million to one. Ergo, this 3-million man clone army would be tantamount to one Earth nation expecting to invade and occupy every other nation on Earth with ... 3 men.

I've attempted to use that argument, Mike. They just... don't... get it. And that's really sad. The numbers we're given would really require for one soldier to be able to take on everyone on the entire planet... six BILLION to one. It's just not possible for such an invasion to take place.

They must be either dumber than fenceposts or pathological liars determined to avoid admitting a mistake.

Darth Wong wrote:They must be either dumber than fenceposts or pathological liars determined to avoid admitting a mistake.

You're welcome to read through that thread yourself--if you can bear the stupidity, that is. The most recent round has someone demanding evidence that all 2 quintillion droids fought in a single action against the GAR, and insisting that it's possible for an army to stand up against this numerical difference.

Demand that they explain how, exactly, that is possible.

VT-16 wrote:Demand that they explain how, exactly, that is possible.

Have you read the thread? The clones r teh spezial forcez!11!1 Which still makes NO sense because even modern special forces cannot approach a 1 billion to one kill ratio. They also insist that the CIS forces were poorly led, poorly organized, had NO logistical abilities whatsoever, and that the Republic fleet prevented the droids from doing any landing anywhere. The GAR, of course, never had to defend a single planet because they ignored the backwater ones and the Core worlds could take care of themselves. When you add in the commando missions to sabotage droids, the GAR has a chance!

I hate these people so much.

Have you read the thread? The clones r teh spezial forcez!11!1

Not the thread on TFN, thank god.

I'm sure the soldiers in Iraq would love to hear from these tactical geniuses on how to use their forces more effectively, since they obviously can come up with a way to use 3 million clones against (how many quadrillion?) battle droids on thousands, if not tens of thousands, of planets.

Darth Wong wrote:The simplest argument is that if we scale down a million-system civilization to our own little planet Earth, we have a scaling factor of (obviously) at least a million to one. Ergo, this 3-million man clone army would be tantamount to one Earth nation expecting to invade and occupy every other nation on Earth with ... 3 men.

How big are RC squads? 4 men? 3 isn't so far off, given that one squad can conquer a planet.

I haven't read the entire thread yet, but for the first few pages I have read, I have to say I'm appalled. What these authors are claiming isn't even supported by the EU itself. Take the book Jedi Trial for example...

They claim that the CIS doesn't have good military strategists/leaders. Dooku and Grevious aside, this book shows that Admiral Pors Tonith also had a very sucessful campaign against the republic.

Jedi Trial, pg 18:
Count Dooku had picked Tonith to lead the force against Praestilyn because of his proven ability as a planner. Commanding an army of droids was more like playing a game than engaging in actual combat. Living soldiers bled and died, had to be fed, experienced morale probelms, knew fear and all other emotions common to beings who could think. And though some might feel that using a droid army to inflict pain and death on a force composed of sentient beings was another matter, Tonith not only looked upon the battlfield dry-eyed, but found sustenance, meaning, and sublime purpose in the destruction of his enemies.

furthermore, the book contradicts any notion of the GAR being able to "island-hop" to defend it's terriotries. Although Praestilyn is a backwater shithole, it contained the communications center that was invaluable to the Republic. It still took them FOREVER to try and retake the center after it fell, and because the center was only being defended by local army/millitia (which were far out-numbered) it was very rapidly lost. Sluis Van, which contained one of the Republic's key shipyards, and I would say another "key world" was right next door to Praestilyn. According to the article and the author's reasonings, it should be no problem for Republic forces to launch from Sluis Van and relieve the local militia and repel the invading CIS forces, right?

Wrong.

Jedi Trial, pg 16:
"As we speak, a fleet of one hundred twenty six ships," he said, "seventy-five of them capital shipos, is investing Sluis Van to block any reinforcements from that sector. I am at this very moment landing a force of fifty thousand battle droids on Praestilyn in a feint to divert the garrison from the INtergalactic Communications Center. When that operation is fully under way, I will land the main force, composed of, give or take, a million battle droids, crush the defenders ina containment maneuver, and capture the center intact.

Jedi Trial, pg 40:
That was the big problem about going to war:one never got enough sleep. Many times Khamar had requested more troops from Coruscant - as well as capital ships to protect the planet from orbit - but his requests had been refused. The Republic, he knew very well, was engaged on a vast scale, and the force he felt he required to defend Praestilyn had been denied because they were needed in other theaters. WHen he pointed out how strategically important the Intergalactic Communications Center was, he'd been told merely that he'd have to make do and prepare his defensive plan with the forces at his disposal. Not even the Sluissi, who had the ships, would help him; they needed all their spacecraft to protect their shipyards.

All this aside, the force that the Republic ends of sending is only 20,000 clones. And they had to pull it from the reserves on one of Coruscant's moons that were meant for CORUSCANT's defense. All to recover one communication center, be it a very vital one. They also employed the help of mercenaries, but the fact that the GAR has to pull it's reserves from their most important planet in order to do a recovery operation is a bad sign...It definetly doesn't support the notion that the GAR can "island hop" and hold it's core worlds. Praeistlyn wasn't even one of them.

Edit: and a small foot note, during the first failed strike from the Republic forces in combination with the mercs and what remained of the local militia, they suffered 1,000 casualties. Now, I know that not necessarily all of them can be claimed as Clones, but I'm sure a vast majority of them are. The battle doesn't end with the Clones completely mopping up the CIS forces either. They get trounced, and Anakin leads a small strike force to do the rescuing, capture the enemy commander, and get the droids shut down. And it's somewhat of a last-ditch effort after two direct assaults fail. 200-1 kill ratio's eh? Definetly not supported here.

How big are RC squads? 4 men? 3 isn't so far off, given that one squad can conquer a planet.

To be fair, authorial intent aside, their action on Quiilura was never portrayed as conquering the world. They simply assasinated the commander of the CIS garrison on the planet and destroyed their base. It's extremely doubtful from their preformance in the book that they could hold the world if the CIS invested anymore military resources into it (the sum total of the force there was a few hundred droids and Mercs who controlled the planet's capital and spaceport, and they bypassed most of them anyways IIRC.)

So how do these imbeciles reconcile their bullshit with the direct quote from the AOTC novelization where an individual battledroid is said to be roughly at parity with an individual clonetrooper in a firefight? Just ignore it? Bury their heads in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist? Listen to the melodious sound of their own farts as they rush past their ears?

Darth Wong wrote:So how do these imbeciles reconcile their bullshit with the direct quote from the AOTC novelization where an individual battledroid is said to be roughly at parity with an individual clonetrooper in a firefight? Just ignore it? Bury their heads in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist? Listen to the melodious sound of their own farts as they rush past their ears?

If they respond at all, its generally in the vain of "its contradicted by the movies" (an assertion they never bother to back up) or "its CIS propaganda."

<minimalist>Obviously the clones have vastly greater strategic manouverability than the droids, and can thus choose to only engage small numbers of droids because...

...because...

Because the clones are cooler!</minimalist>

I wonder if someone could compare what they are suggesting with the current situation in Iraq. Maybe a concrete real-life example will be a big enough hammer to break the anvil. I've read that counter-insurgency requires a ten to one ratio of soldiers to terrorists. Compare that to what is happening in Iraq, and say that what they are proposing would be billions upon billions of times worse, in fact impossible when one considers three million soldiers wouldn't be enough to hold a single planet.

What are their numbers for local militias and sector defense forces? How do they explain the fact that if the numbers were so low, the Confederacy could have landed all their quadrillions of drones on Coruscant and decapitated the Galactic Republic in one fell stroke? Space superiority? Palpatine ordering Dooku to "hold back"?

Brian

Noble Ire wrote:If they respond at all, its generally in the vain of "its contradicted by the movies" (an assertion they never bother to back up) or "its CIS propaganda."

By "contradicting the movies" do they mean the various scenes in which we see Clones falling left and right and what appears to be at best a 20 droid per Clone casualty ratio?

As for "CIS propaganda" that has already been dealt with. It would be like the Japanese during WWII suddenly claiming that they had pulled hundreds of millions of soldiers out of their collective asses and expecting people to believe them.

Do these people realize that US Elite Special Forces personel in Mogadishu, who where not outnumbered on a level anywhere near what these guys are suggesting the Clones are, had to fucking run away to avoid getting slaughtered? Oh sure, they inflicted an insanely high number of casualties on the enemy, but we are talking about untrained militias, just guys with guns. The droids are quite clearly shown in the movies, and it is spelled out in the novelization of AotC, to have military proficiency in the same league, though not the same level, as Clones. Hell, the Jedi in the arena scene in AotC weren't that badly outnumbered (about 20-1), yet they would have been slaughtered if the Clones hadn't shown up.

By "contradicting the movies" do they mean the various scenes in which we see Clones falling left and right and what appears to be at best a 20 droid per Clone casualty ratio?

Hell if I know. The most in-depth rebutal to this was that it was "unsupported by onscreen evidence" or something.

As for "CIS propaganda" that has already been dealt with. It would be like the Japanese during WWII suddenly claiming that they had pulled hundreds of millions of soldiers out of their collective asses and expecting people to believe them.

Apparently, TF.ner's would.

Darth Wong wrote:So how do these imbeciles reconcile their bullshit with the direct quote from the AOTC novelization where an individual battledroid is said to be roughly at parity with an individual clonetrooper in a firefight? Just ignore it? Bury their heads in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist? Listen to the melodious sound of their own farts as they rush past their ears?

Basically. When informed that the clones would have to kill somewhere in the neighborhood of hundreds of millions of droids for every clone that went down, one guy started rambling about how I needed to watch the Clone Wars cartoons, because a ton of droids died in that. As if that would somehow total tens of thousands or millions to one kill ratios.

Noble Ire wrote:

How big are RC squads? 4 men? 3 isn't so far off, given that one squad can conquer a planet.

To be fair, authorial intent aside, their action on Quiilura was never portrayed as conquering the world. They simply assasinated the commander of the CIS garrison on the planet and destroyed their base. It's extremely doubtful from their preformance in the book that they could hold the world if the CIS invested anymore military resources into it (the sum total of the force there was a few hundred droids and Mercs who controlled the planet's capital and spaceport, and they bypassed most of them anyways IIRC.)

100 droids, the mercs wee killed by the Major when he got the droids.

And it still took orbital bombardment to accomplish this.

Where is this discussion going on, i have to see some of the other side's responses.

3 million...fucking please...we saw three million Clones fighting in the CW cartoons AT LEAST! Fuck at the Battle of Coruscant when they shoot out into space, we see what looks like hundreds of thousands or MILLIONS of ships blasting away at each other. 3 million clones my fat Warsie ass.

And you know i was one of those willing to except the 'units=clones' theory from the movies, because i was also thinking probably there were like millions of droids. That it was somewhat even. I know that is way too low but it was ok for me. If this is what they were implying i really feel stupid for arguing in favor of that at the time.

Did George Lucas say this...or just one of his underlings?

Did George Lucas say this...or just one of his underlings?

It was Karen Traviss and Ryan Kaufman (of DHC.) However, Kaufman eventually admitted that the 3-5 million number was too low, and that the actual number is meant to be ambigous, per orders from LFL. The only people still arguing are a few clueless posters on TFN.

Noble Ire wrote:

Did George Lucas say this...or just one of his underlings?

It was Karen Traviss and Ryan Kaufman (of DHC.) However, Kaufman eventually admitted that the 3-5 million number was too low, and that the actual number is meant to be ambigous, per orders from LFL. The only people still arguing are a few clueless posters on TFN.

Yeah, it is rather telling that the people that authored the article stopped trying to defend the numbers several pages ago.

It's telling they even TRIED. Why pull the 'don't be a nerd, just accept the ficshun' rubbish when they clearly knew their numbers were far too small, and they'd been told to be non-specific? They're clearly tards of the worst sort.

Many Star Wars authors minimalize SW (along with the rabid fanboys) because they don't have an understanding and appreciation for the astronomical size that the SW galaxy is. If they just took one semester of college astronomy, they would come to understand the enormity of the universe. Which is interesting, because the only SW author so far to have an understanding and appreciation for the universe is attacked as being a maximalist by a vocal portion of the SW community. Who do you trust more when it comes to numbers? Someone who understand the magnificence of the universe (interestingly enough, where the quintillion number comes from) or a lay author?

Which is interesting, because the only SW author so far to have an understanding and appreciation for the universe is attacked as being a maximalist by a vocal portion of the SW community. Who do you trust more when it comes to numbers? Someone who understand the magnificence of the universe (interestingly enough, where the quintillion number comes from) or a lay author?

Alright, I've got nothing. Who is it your refering to?