Manticore vs. The Tau

[Akaramu Shinja]

Specialist Games homepage

Check on the right for new Tau fleet stuff and check under BFG section for all other tau fleet rules.

Also they have all BFG fluff/rules up for free now, as well as other specialist games ranges. Guess they rely entirely on models for those ranges.[/url]

[18-Till-I-Die]

Many thanks

[Akaramu Shinja]

As far as I can tell, nobody has really commited one way or another in this thread. Is this a stalemate of uncertainty?

[Nephtys]

It seems so. I'm willing to wager that ship to ship, Manticore has a superiority especially through missile firepower, and defensive capability, but the Tau it seems outnumber them with a multisystem nation.

[18-Till-I-Die]

I beleive the Tau would win. One on one, the Tau and Manties seem almost identical (after reading the fluff i'm convinced someone is ripping someone off, just not who) but the Tau are advanced in other ways as well. Namely they dont need huge wedge fields, they seem to have smaller more powerful fields, and so would be less obvious on sensors i'd suspect.

But if i had to bet my money would be on the Tau.

[Falkenhayn]

I beleive the Tau would win. One on one, the Tau and Manties seem almost identical (after reading the fluff i'm convinced someone is ripping someone off, just not who) but the Tau are advanced in other ways as well. Namely they dont need huge wedge fields, they seem to have smaller more powerful fields, and so would be less obvious on sensors i'd suspect.

But if i had to bet my money would be on the Tau.

How? Where?

The SKoM is a carbon copy of the British Empire. The Tau are a communist oligarchy dependent on brainwashing and socialist propaganda and a religous faith in high technology to both expand and maintain public order.

[18-Till-I-Die]

I was reading the technical aspects of teh Tau fleet. Gravity sails, multi-layered 'hyperspace', heavy relience on guided missiles, gravity shields and even a wedge, 'deflector' on the front of their ships. I think Games Workshop was reading a little Honorverse when they were coming up with some of that. Basically, technologically, they are extremely similar but with teh Tau being more compact and, it appears, more advanced.

Culturally you're of course correct, they are nothing alike. It's only technologically that they have several similarities.

That being said, i still put my money on the Tau as they seem slightly more advanced.

[Dahak]

I was reading the technical aspects of teh Tau fleet. Gravity sails, multi-layered 'hyperspace', heavy relience on guided missiles, gravity shields and even a wedge, 'deflector' on the front of their ships. I think Games Workshop was reading a little Honorverse when they were coming up with some of that. Basically, technologically, they are extremely similar but with teh Tau being more compact and, it appears, more advanced.

Culturally you're of course correct, they are nothing alike. It's only technologically that they have several similarities.

That being said, i still put my money on the Tau as they seem slightly more advanced.

The Honorverse has such things as sails and broadsides because DW did a Hornblower-in-space series. Thus, he modelled his technology so that he had sails, broadsides, and maneuvres and such akin to the age of sails.

[Imperial Overlord]

It appears that Tau FTL is one-fifth the speed of IoM or about six times as fast as HH FTL.

[Akaramu Shinja]

It appears that Tau FTL is one-fifth the speed of IoM or about six times as fast as HH FTL.

Not to be rude, but I already said that

[Akaramu Shinja]

I'm going to go with the Tau for the overall war, but the missiles of the Mantie ships will be a problem for them. Though I don't think it's so lopsided that the Tau would be losing in droves. After a few battles initially the Tau would most likely adjust their tactics as we've seen in their history and use what they have the Manties don't. Strike craft. Lots and lots of Mantas flying in close and ripping the Mantie ships up under their protective sidewalls and wedge.

One major concern for me would be just how many ships the Tau have initially. We don't have any concrete numbers, so one tactic the Manties could pull (assuming they outnumber them) is rushing their home planet (assuming they knew where it was, and assuming the Tau didn't just attack Manticore while they were en route with their slow FTL..) and level it from orbit asap, as well as all orbitals and other resources in the system (again assuming massive numerical advantage).

[fgalkin]

Its unlikely the Manties outnumber the Tau given the size of their empires.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[andrewgpaul]

Some new stuff has popped up. That would be the new Tau Commerce Protection fleet. The fluff is long and explains that while the other fleet is their mainstay, they produced these as pure combat ships, going off the knowledge gained from the Orca and Hero classes of ships. Apparently the older ships (Orca and Hero) were developed with modularity in mind, while the new ships aren't. Making them expensive and harder to build, but are "sleaker" and more akin to Tau ground warmachine designs.

It also indicates that while it's called the Commerce Protection fleet, it is actually their most advanced ships and are used only when needed.

Things of note from this:
They have two new escorts. One of which (the Castellan class) is capable of FTL travel without gravitic hooks. The other is better than an Orca and carried on the new Tau battleships. Yes, they now have battleships! As well as the new Protector cruiser, which is far superior to the Hero.

Another thing not brought up is the Demiurg. The Tau employ their ships in battle occasionally. Would they be allowed according to the OP?

Where is this from? A website? I'd love to read some of the fluff, so if you could drop a link i'd be greatful

Out-of-universe, this stems from the two different miniature ranges; the 'Commerce Protection Fleet' is, I think, the Forge WOrld-produced resin ships (here), while the other fleet is the metal Specialist Games range (here). Note that Forge World's new Imperial Armour book, vol. 3, The Taros Campaign appears to have stats for the Forge World ships, and may override the article on the Specialist Games website (here).

As for the aforementioned Warp Missiles, they do indeed travel partly in warpspace, and thus bypass shields and armour, detonating inside the target. At least, that's how the titan-mounted ones work. I can't remember if there are starship torpedpo equivalents (and I don't think the WD torpedo variants article is online).

[Akaramu Shinja]

Actually the Specialist Games one overides Foregworld (assuming the forgeworld rules are different, which I don't think they are considering they were released so close to each other). All Games-Workshop produced material overides it, and they intended to use the Forgeworld ones fully as the designers have been mentioning it for ages on the boards. This means that you can officially use them in tournaments without question as opposed to use "Counts As" rules.

[Black Admiral]

As for the aforementioned Warp Missiles, they do indeed travel partly in warpspace, and thus bypass shields and armour, detonating inside the target. At least, that's how the titan-mounted ones work. I can't remember if there are starship torpedpo equivalents (and I don't think the WD torpedo variants article is online).

They're not listed in the torpedo variant article IIRC, however this is the discussion mentioning them (this is talking about a small warp rift that the warp-reactive bridge window filter picked up):

"How?"

"Interesting you should ask," said Vekk. "DiGoryan here and I were just discussing the same thing. We thought it might be a subspace propulsion rig at first, those solid-state numbers they had docked at Hydraphur a few years back."

"But that, of course, would cause infra-quantum fluctuations far beyond the range of what we are currently acquiring," said the Navigator, DiGoryan, folding his long, intricate fingers into a steeple beneath his chin.

Chloure nodded. He had no idea what they were talking about. He could organise the details of an entire planetary economy, but the vagaries of warp science were simply beyond him.

"We believed it was a psychoportive weapons system powering up," continued DiGoryan. "But, of course, the astropaths have detected nothing that might suggest such a thing."

[andrewgpaul]

Means absolutely nothing. I'd need to read the novel, see it in context. 'Psychoportive' is not a term I've seen used anywhere else, although it does suggest something powered by warp/psychic energy. Could be a warp missile, a D-Cannon, Shokk Attack gun, Sonic Blaster ...

[Imperial Overlord]

Means absolutely nothing. I'd need to read the novel, see it in context. 'Psychoportive' is not a term I've seen used anywhere else, although it does suggest something powered by warp/psychic energy. Could be a warp missile, a D-Cannon, Shokk Attack gun, Sonic Blaster ...

I've seen psychoportive used in other places (D&D psionics comes first to mind). It's transport via psychic abilities, which in 40K suggests to me teleportation through the warp.

[andrewgpaul]

When I said I'd not seen the term anywhere else, I meant in 40K, although I managed to guess the meaning.

[The Dark]

How good is the acceleration on Tau strike craft? Manty PD does well at striking down missiles that accelerate at 800,000 m/s^2, so without some incredibly good strike craft they're going to have problems.

[Imperial Overlord]

How good is the acceleration on Tau strike craft? Manty PD does well at striking down missiles that accelerate at 800,000 m/s^2, so without some incredibly good strike craft they're going to have problems.

Not so good, although probably better than LACs based on how fast capital ships move in Sabbat Martyr. Of course they don't have giant impeller wedges with "please target me" signs.

[Nephtys]

A missile's impeller signature is not that big at all, less than a hundred meters across IIRC. And it can be hit reliably traveling at velocities faster than any ship with countermissiles or PD Lasers.

So far, what I see both sides have.
Tau: Numbers. Planets. FtL Speed. (Possibly) Sensors. Communism.
Manticore: Firepower. Tactics. Defensive Systems.

[Coalition]

I'd see the Tau as having the defensive advantage, and a little on the firepower as well.

Tau shields can withstand 600 gigatons of firepower before collapsing. That translates to ~1000 Manty missiles per ship, to drop its shields (not counting ECM).

For firepower, the AI guided missiles could use the Triple-ripple style of attacking. Each missile is a 60 gigaton warhead (each volley of missiles is 10 missiles, damage per volley is 600 gigatons). So the first missile comes into range, and detects anti-missile fire. It detonates, blinding the counter missiles. The next one detonates afterwards, repeating, and keeping the Manty ship blind.

The 9th or 10th missile gets in range, and lets loose the 60 gigaton warhead at point blank range.

Unfortunately, those missiles can only be fired at one volley per fifteen minutes, there will be a massive first wave, then the Tau will rotate shields in and out of the front line, to keep their shields strong.

The Manties will be able to dodge away from the Tau, most likely, but if the Tau can spot the shipyards, they will simply close and engage them.

[Dahak]

The Manties will be able to dodge away from the Tau, most likely, but if the Tau can spot the shipyards, they will simply close and engage them.

The yards, at least the big ones, Hephaestos, Vulcan, are protected by bubble sidewalls and have their own point defense

[Jadeite]

Except it doesn't need to be uber-godly; it just has to know avoid the big honking grav anoms.

And I was specifically speaking of sidewalls.

Anyway, assuming even rough parity, the Tau will roll this by superior numbers.

It'll also need to get past the counter-missiles, ECM, and PD laser clusters.

[NecronLord]

I have serious doubts about this supposed numerical advantage of the Tau's. The Democles Gulf Crusade was based around seven IoM capital ships, and yet the Tau didn't simply swamp that with numbers.