Jedi vs. Zion

[Durandal]

That's acctually a really good point, I can't remember hearing any lound 'bang' when he hit, can anyone else? I mean that if it was an ellastic collision than he just flat out absorbed all the KE, if it was inelastic there should have been some losses due to noise/heat.

You couldn't hear a sound, but that doesn't mean that one was not produced. Aside from that, the collision simply couldn't have been elastic because the total amount of kinetic energy in the system was not the same before and after the collision. The speeder's stabilization systems pretty much guarantee that.

When determining whether a collision is elastic or inelastic, compare it to billiard balls hitting each other. Did Anakin's collision with the speeder look or act anything like two billiard balls colliding? Not really, no.

[Crown]

That's acctually a really good point, I can't remember hearing any lound 'bang' when he hit, can anyone else? I mean that if it was an ellastic collision than he just flat out absorbed all the KE, if it was inelastic there should have been some losses due to noise/heat.

You couldn't hear a sound, but that doesn't mean that one was not produced. Aside from that, the collision simply couldn't have been elastic because the total amount of kinetic energy in the system was not the same before and after the collision. The speeder's stabilization systems pretty much guarantee that.

When determining whether a collision is elastic or inelastic, compare it to billiard balls hitting each other. Did Anakin's collision with the speeder look or act anything like two billiard balls colliding? Not really, no.

Yes ... well ... *runs away laughing*

hehe

Anyway back on target, Connor tells me that we have some infor about Zam's speeder from AOTC ITW, it states that the speed limit for Coruscant was 200 km/hr (55.6 m/s), but that she regularly topped out more than twice that to 400 km/hr (111.1 m/s). Anyone care to give me a time frame for when Anakin grabbed the speeder to get an idea of what kind of lateral Forces were acting on him?

Also would it be safe to assume that this is the tensile strength that his arms can sustain as he was grippin with his fingers for crying out loud?

[Connor MacLeod]

That's acctually a really good point, I can't remember hearing any lound 'bang' when he hit, can anyone else? I mean that if it was an ellastic collision than he just flat out absorbed all the KE, if it was inelastic there should have been some losses due to noise/heat.

You couldn't hear a sound, but that doesn't mean that one was not produced. Aside from that, the collision simply couldn't have been elastic because the total amount of kinetic energy in the system was not the same before and after the collision. The speeder's stabilization systems pretty much guarantee that.

When determining whether a collision is elastic or inelastic, compare it to billiard balls hitting each other. Did Anakin's collision with the speeder look or act anything like two billiard balls colliding? Not really, no.

Yes ... well ... *runs away laughing*

hehe

Anyway back on target, Connor tells me that we have some infor about Zam's speeder from AOTC ITW, it states that the speed limit for Coruscant was 200 km/hr (55.6 m/s), but that she regularly topped out more than twice that to 400 km/hr (111.1 m/s). Anyone care to give me a time frame for when Anakin grabbed the speeder to get an idea of what kind of lateral Forces were acting on him?

Gimme some time to look. but he grabbed in approximately the same rate/time he hit the speeder, IIRC (he was reaching out to grab it just before impact in fact, I think.)

Also would it be safe to assume that this is the tensile strength that his arms can sustain as he was grippin with his fingers for crying out loud?

He might be using the Force to anchor himself rather than just "hold on" - we could infer that his "grip" may be some sort of focusing/concentration gesture akin to hand waving to allow him to hold on.

[Crown]

Ahhh, 'aint numbers fun?

[Connor MacLeod]

He falls and about a few frames before he hits the speeder, so the "time" was about the same as to "hit" the speeder, maybe a few frames longer.

[Crown]

He falls and about a few frames before he hits the speeder, so the "time" was about the same as to "hit" the speeder, maybe a few frames longer.

Okay I'll use the same time variance as before;

0.042 < t < 0.21.

I will do it for 2 cases (55.6 m/s and 111.1 m/s).

Case 1: Speed limit of Coruscant.

v = 55.6 m/s

F = m*Δv/Δt

F = 70 *55.6/0.042 < t < 0.21

F = 18,533.3 to 92,666.7 N or

F = 1899.2 to 9446.1 g

Case 2: Zam's maxed out speed.

v = 111.1 m/s

F = m*Δv/Δt

F = 70*111.1/0.042 < t < 0.21

F = 37,033.3 to 185,166.7 or

F = 3775.1 to 18,875.3 g

Please note that g is for Earth standard gravities (9.81 m/s^2).

[Connor MacLeod]

Wow. tens of thousands of gravities? Thats just plain nasty.

[D.Turtle]

In the scene where Anakin falls onto the Zam's speeder, she is moving the same speed as the rest of the traffic.

[Connor MacLeod]

Doesn't matter. Crown accounted for both examples (speed limit and non speed limit) and the results are still thousands of gees like the prior example, and its quite impressive.

[Crown]

I told you this would happen Connor.

Anyway to put things into perspective, this weekend past the Hungarian F1 GP was held (bloody Ferrari what the hell is wrong with you), and during the Friday qualifying, Jordan's Ralf Firman had an amazing and very dangerous crash.

The BBC reports

Now what is interesting is that the commentators, informed us that his crash was about 40g's. I haven't verified this myself, but I trust Jason and Martin, so I'll take that at face value.

So a race car driver, wearing protective equiptment, head and neck supports, and surrounded by a carbon fibre monocockpit with crash zones, hit a tire wall that cushioned his impact, lost consciencesness, and was taken to hospital after a 40g car crash.

If you read the link above you can see that for yourself.

Anakin's achievement is just flat-out amazing, even when I was using the ultra-concervative 5 sec impact time, let alone the more accurate time's Connor found for me!

[Connor MacLeod]

I told you this would happen Connor.

Bah. This is mild. So far noone is screaming "Jedi fan wanking" yet.

Anyway to put things into perspective, this weekend past the Hungarian F1 GP was held (bloody Ferrari what the hell is wrong with you), and during the Friday qualifying, Jordan's Ralf Firman had an amazing and very dangerous crash.

The BBC reports

Now what is interesting is that the commentators, informed us that his crash was about 40g's. I haven't verified this myself, but I trust Jason and Martin, so I'll take that at face value.

So a race car driver, wearing protective equiptment, head and neck supports, and surrounded by a carbon fibre monocockpit with crash zones, hit a tire wall that cushioned his impact, lost consciencesness, and was taken to hospital after a 40g car crash.

If you read the link above you can see that for yourself.

And this is neglecting that the typical gee forces a human body can withstand are not much more than 10 gees, and usually alot less. (hundreds of gees are possible in some cases, like for the brain, but that is for only small fractions of a second.)

Anakin's achievement is just flat-out amazing, even when I was using the ultra-concervative 5 sec impact time, let alone the more accurate time's Connor found for me!

I thought 5 seconds was the fall time you used? The impact time/time to grab the speeder was no longer than a second (He did both approximately at the same time, though the grabbing might have been slightly longer frame wise but not alot so.) and by all evidence, even if my exact estimates are off (I doubt they are - but even if they are, it won't be by more than a few frames so we're still probably talking about under half a second or even a third of a second) you already did one-second "low end" estimates that put Anakin's feat well in the hundreds of gees range, and thats for only PART of the fall (there is his freefall onto the speeder as well as his grabbing the speeder)

In short, we're talking thousands of gees accurate to within an order of magnitude (IE tens of thousands to hundreds).

Now let the accusations of Jedi Fan Wanking begin!

[CorSec]

Kudos to the math people on this thread. Those are some impressive feats indeed. But I have to ask: Is it possible that Anakin used his acceleration from the freefall and propulsion from Force use to match speeds with Zam's speeder before grabbing it? Has someone already asked this question and I missed it?

[Stravo]

Does anyone remeber when this thread was a fun fanciful fantasy of what would happen if Jedi fought Zionists?

[Darth Wong]

Does anyone remeber when this thread was a fun fanciful fantasy of what would happen if Jedi fought Zionists?

No. Could you please produce some examples of this "fun fanciful fantasy"? As far as I can tell, it started out like any other "vs" thread and stayed that way.

[Durandal]

This is great. I'm like a professor with graduate assistants. I point you two in the right direction, and you do all the grunt work.

[YT300000]

This is great. I'm like a professor with graduate assistants. I point you two in the right direction, and you do all the grunt work.

And you get the rewards.

[CorSec]

Does anyone remeber when this thread was a fun fanciful fantasy of what would happen if Jedi fought Zionists?

If you wanted fun, fanciful fantasy then you obviously posted on the wrong bbs. What'd you think would happen? Did you really think that the people here would just happily guess their way through? Dammit, man! Think before you post!

On a different note, I have to wonder how a Jedi would percieve the people in the matrix. A real live person standing in front of you I would assume projects a certain aura into the Force around them. Would a Jedi be able to discern between a matrix computed Force and the real Force?

If a given Jedi is merely trapped in the Matrix, then it's possible that a given Zionist may have some advantage. But it may not be enough of an advantage to overcome the powers inherent with Force ability.

While Neo is very impressive with his abilities, he still needs to physically manipulate people, others within the construct, in order to help them or hurt them. A Jedi, on the other hand isn't hindered by such a thing.

Single/Dual weapons, regardless of their rates of fire can be negated by Force speed and a lightsabre. Multiple weapons with a high rate of fire can be negated by a Force wall or a Jedi that knows to get the heck out of Dodge. If it comes down to a melee fight, then any Zionist is at an extreme disadvantage. A Jedi's speed (which is faster than anything as yet seen in the matrix) plus the handy-dandy-super-duper lightsabre makes minced meat out of anything and everything that comes within striking distance.

[Crown]

I thought 5 seconds was the fall time you used?

No I was referring to the very first post where I was being ultra-ultra-conservative where I used an impact time of 1 to 3 (5?) seconds

This is great. I'm like a professor with graduate assistants. I point you two in the right direction, and you do all the grunt work.

*Grumbles*

[Mad]

On a different note, I have to wonder how a Jedi would percieve the people in the matrix. A real live person standing in front of you I would assume projects a certain aura into the Force around them. Would a Jedi be able to discern between a matrix computed Force and the real Force?

I'd just assume that for this thread, the Matrix accurately models the Force such that the Jedi can't tell any difference.

As for TK abilities intersecting... We're not sure exactly how Neo's abilities work. He didn't set the velocities of the bullets to 0, because they didn't immediately stop. So he either modified their accelerations, some other data member that isn't immediately obvious (a target_velocity or other variable that has no real-world counterpart), created a counter force, or called a Matrix function to do it for him.

In any case, there would appear to be a way for Neo to counter the Jedi's powers to some extent. Let's assume a Force push is used (some other TK attack, like a Force choke, may require more detail but follow the same principles). Depending on the method Neo uses:

1) Modify accelerations. The result of the push would set an acceleration to a non-zero value. Neo would have to set it back to 0.

2) Other data member. It would depend on the data and its use. Say if it was a target_velocity variable, Neo should change the target_velocity such that the system would do the work.

3) Create counter force. Duh. He's being pushed one way, he pushes back the other way.

4) Call Matrix function. There's no evidence that I know of that says that Neo had to actually call system functions instead of modifying values directly. If this was the case, however, Neo would have to call a function to apply counter force. Since the system is accurately modeling the Force, he should have access to those functions. Finding those new functions would be the tough part.

[Slartibartfast]

If Anakin has his lightsabre then Neo has his spoon.

[Connor MacLeod]

This is great. I'm like a professor with graduate assistants. I point you two in the right direction, and you do all the grunt work.

Considering how often you appear to be drunk and stoned, you need people to do your work for you if anything is to get done

[Connor MacLeod]

Does anyone remeber when this thread was a fun fanciful fantasy of what would happen if Jedi fought Zionists?

No. Could you please produce some examples of this "fun fanciful fantasy"? As far as I can tell, it started out like any other "vs" thread and stayed that way.

Not really. Those who would usually scream "Jedi Wanking" are notably silent now. Even that moron Omega-13 apperas not to be participating. (or he got his head shoved up his ass and just hasnt been able to get free yet)

[CorSec]

If Anakin has his lightsabre then Neo has his spoon.

Are you saying there is no lightsabre?

[Durandal]

I'd just assume that for this thread, the Matrix accurately models the Force such that the Jedi can't tell any difference.

As for TK abilities intersecting... We're not sure exactly how Neo's abilities work. He didn't set the velocities of the bullets to 0, because they didn't immediately stop. So he either modified their accelerations, some other data member that isn't immediately obvious (a target_velocity or other variable that has no real-world counterpart), created a counter force, or called a Matrix function to do it for him.

In any case, there would appear to be a way for Neo to counter the Jedi's powers to some extent. Let's assume a Force push is used (some other TK attack, like a Force choke, may require more detail but follow the same principles). Depending on the method Neo uses:

1) Modify accelerations. The result of the push would set an acceleration to a non-zero value. Neo would have to set it back to 0.

2) Other data member. It would depend on the data and its use. Say if it was a target_velocity variable, Neo should change the target_velocity such that the system would do the work.

3) Create counter force. Duh. He's being pushed one way, he pushes back the other way.

4) Call Matrix function. There's no evidence that I know of that says that Neo had to actually call system functions instead of modifying values directly. If this was the case, however, Neo would have to call a function to apply counter force. Since the system is accurately modeling the Force, he should have access to those functions. Finding those new functions would be the tough part.

The problem is that the bullets remained in the air. Neo had to have modified their x and y velocity components. While it didn't look like it, those bullets had to have been dropping as they were traveling toward him. So not only did Neo stop them in mid-flight, but he counteracted the gravitational force on them, as well.

However, this does not mean that he had to manipulate or call any functions. It just means that he set the positions of the bullets manually, rather than letting them be determined by the position function in the physics engine.

[Mad]

The problem is that the bullets remained in the air. Neo had to have modified their x and y velocity components. While it didn't look like it, those bullets had to have been dropping as they were traveling toward him. So not only did Neo stop them in mid-flight, but he counteracted the gravitational force on them, as well.

However, this does not mean that he had to manipulate or call any functions. It just means that he set the positions of the bullets manually, rather than letting them be determined by the position function in the physics engine.

Of course, it means that he didn't directly set their velocities to 0. If he did, the bullets would've stopped immediately, without taking the time to slow down. He may have slowly modified their velocity values, though. Perhaps to prevent the system from trying to counter his hack.

In any case, I don't see why a Jedi's TK power and Neo's Matrix manipulation power wouldn't be able to intersect on some level. One may be more powerful than the other, but there's no evidence that either would automatically be immune to defensive measures by the other.