What was Palpatine's original plan in TPM?

[Havok]

Uh. Seriously? Did you miss the whole part where Anakin whined that he wasn't as powerful as he should be, or when he was pissed they didn't make him a Master?

And comparing two shows that have what, 26 hours between them so far, dedicated to fleshing out Anakin to the maybe 2 hours of actual screen time Anakin gets in the PT isn't quite fair.

[Metahive]

Uh. Seriously? Did you miss the whole part where Anakin whined that he wasn't as powerful as he should be, or when he was pissed they didn't make him a Master?

I don't see that as an expression of hybris at all. I see that as a childish entitlement-complex of a spoilt, pampered brat. It's a hell of difference between this and, say, Milton's Satan and his "better a ruler in hell than a servant in heaven".
Paris Hilton ain't a model for tragic hybris.

Also, that since none of that comes up when he joins Palpatine, only his whiny "save Padme puleeeeez!", it's moot anyway.

And comparing two shows that have what, 26 hours between them so far, dedicated to fleshing out Anakin to the maybe 2 hours of actual screen time Anakin gets in the PT isn't quite fair.

It's entirely fair since I won't believe for a moment that three movies are not time enough to set someone up as a tragic hero rather than a complete asshole.

[Havok]

OK, I know hybris is an accepted version of hubris, but come the fuck on.

And you don't see his confidence in his pod racing skills, in his lightsaber abilities, in his Jedi abilities, his quest for more power, balking at being given a seat on the council, but NOT being made a Master as hubris? Really? Hubris is the one fucking thing that Lucas, Jake and Hayden competently conveyed with Anakin.

And please, could you point out, when, at ANY time, Anakin is shown as spoiled or pampered? Is it when he was a slave on a desert planet with a bomb inside him, or when he was a member of an order of munks that favor a life of no comfort and no personal belongings? Please enlighten us with these apparently deleted scenes.

And complete asshole? When does that happen? When he helps out the strangers on Tattoine? Saves the Naboo people? Tries to save his mom? Tries to save his best friend and mentor? Falls in love with a girl? Tries to save the woman he loves? Doesn't want to betray his closest friend and confidant? Yeah what a dick.

You know, I think you are right, I won't believe for a moment that three movies are not time enough to set someone up as a tragic hero rather than a complete asshole either. I think they did a fine job and you are just an idiot.

[Metahive]

OK, I know hybris is an accepted version of hubris, but come the fuck on.

Come the fuck on what? Are we down to whining about me sticking closer to the original Greek? Get lost.

And you don't see his confidence in his pod racing skills

Confidence in something he's genuinely good at means hybris? Let me explain, hybris is excessive pride in oneself coupled with never admitting wrongdoing, never asking for forgiveness and never taking the consequences that your actions might have for others into account. Hybris and pride are not synonymous!

his quest for more power

Craving power is not a sign of hybris, someone suffering from it already thinks he's top of the world powerful as explained above.

balking at being given a seat on the council, but NOT being made a Master as hubris?

Little Paris getting a pony, just not the purty white one and subsequently stamping her feet and throwing a temper tantrum isn't a sign of hybris, it's one of immaturity. Achilleus sulking in his tent and wishing pain, death and defeat upon his fellow Greeks until they crawl back and beg for his help just for Agamemnon spurning him, that is hybris.

And please, could you point out, when, at ANY time, Anakin is shown as spoiled or pampered? Is it when he was a slave on a desert planet with a bomb inside him, or when he was a member of an order of munks that favor a life of no comfort and no personal belongings? Please enlighten us with these apparently deleted scenes.

You just mentioned an example, Anakin's extremely unprofessional conduct on the council after he was denied the title of master, despite becoming a member of the council being already a great honor for someone as young as him. That's a sense of entitlement befitting a spoilt rotten.

And complete asshole? When does that happen? When he helps out the strangers on Tattoine? Saves the Naboo people? Tries to save his mom? Tries to save his best friend and mentor? Falls in love with a girl? Tries to save the woman he loves? Doesn't want to betray his closest friend and confidant? Yeah what a dick.

He doesn't want to go and save his mentor, Padme blackmails him into doing it. He tries to save his mom after not giving a shit for ten years and then massacres an entire village, women and children included (but they're evil untermenschen, so it's OK) when he fails in petty vengeance. His relationship with Padme is creepy and marked with obsessive jealousy, something for which he eventually sells out the Republic. He massacres children that trusted in him, he cold-bloodedly tries to murder his wife because she sides with Obi Wan against his insanity. Throughout AOTC he fails at pretty much everything he tries through excessive dumbassery (even manages to lose his lightsaber, the "life of a Jedi", twice) and then whines about Obi Wan being at fault for "holding him back".
As for Palpatine, he's a friend, confidant AND Sith Lord who deliberately plunged the galaxy into a bloody war for petty gain by his own admission. Notice that he's not against Palpatine getting his just desserts, just against Windu executing him on the spot because he wants to extract the knowledge of eternal life from him beforehand. That's true friendship for you.

Movieverse Anakin is an asshole.

His heroics are thus, winning the Pod Race, accidentally destroying the droid control ship and defeating Dooku, but he botches the latter by murdering him. Funnily enough only the first is something he accomplished all by himself and for truly selfless reasons.

You know, I think you are right, I won't believe for a moment that three movies are not time enough to set someone up as a tragic hero rather than a complete asshole either. I think they did a fine job and you are just an idiot.

Since you had to misrepresent the events of the movies pretty badly to arrive at this conclusion, I can safely reject it in good conscience.

[Metahive]

Addendum, he also opts to carry an unconscious Obi Wan around instead of leaving him behind on Grievous' ship, that counts as another selfless deed, too. Sure, they get captured anyway but it's the thought that counts.

So it's actually two genuinely selfless, heroic deeds vs. countless fuck ups and demonstrations of jackassery. Please notice that my crticism was that the movies overplay Anakin's flaws and downplay his heroics, I never said he never did anything good in the movies at all, it's just too extremely limited in my opinion when compared to what he does in the two Clone Wars series.

[Darth Tedious]

I don't want to wade deeply into this argument, but I can give at least one example of actual hubris/hybris/whatever being conveyed in AoTC:

Obi-Wan: If you spent as much time practicing your saber techniques as you did your wit, you'd rival Master Yoda as a swordsman.
Anakin: I thought I already did.
Obi-Wan: Only in your mind, my VERY young apprentice.

Although that could be interpreted as just being arrogance, too.

[Metahive]

Or cocky banter. I already defined hybris above, it's not just being overly proud of one's abilities and accomplishments, it's being proud to the exclusion of everything else about it. Take the examples in classical myth, Niobe taunting Leto, mother of Apollon and Artemis, about having more children than her (the gods murder all her children), Tantalos trying to embarass the gods by making them eat his son (he gets to be forever hungry and thirsty), Sisyphos believing he could cheat death with his wit, which almost fucks up the entire world and ends with him getting banished to eternal punishment in the Tartaros. All knew that talking smack at the gods could have dire consequences not only for them and yet they thought themselves above it. Movieverse Anakin simply doesn't fit all that well into this mould.

An act of hybris on behalf of Anakin might be him charging at Count Dooku in their first confrontation and thereby botching nipping the Clone War in the bud, but that might as well be a result of him being angry about all the dead Jedi in the arena and distraught about the loss of Padme when she fell out of the LAAT. The writing in the prequel trilogy is just not all that great.

[Bakustra]

Or cocky banter. I already defined hybris above, it's not just being overly proud of one's abilities and accomplishments, it's being proud to the exclusion of everything else about it. Take the examples in classical myth, Niobe taunting Leto, mother of Apollon and Artemis, about having more children than her (the gods murder all her children), Tantalos trying to embarass the gods by making them eat his son (he gets to be forever hungry and thirsty), Sisyphos believing he could cheat death with his wit, which almost fucks up the entire world and ends with him getting banished to eternal punishment in the Tartaros. All knew that talking smack at the gods could have dire consequences not only for them and yet they thought themselves above it. Movieverse Anakin simply doesn't fit all that well into this mould.

An act of hybris on behalf of Anakin might be him charging at Count Dooku in their first confrontation and thereby botching nipping the Clone War in the bud, but that might as well be a result of him being angry about all the dead Jedi in the arena and distraught about the loss of Padme when she fell out of the LAAT. The writing in the prequel trilogy is just not all that great.

To take another example that's actually taught in literature classes, Oedipus never explicitly defied the gods, but rather attempted to defy prophecy. Anakin attempting to save his mother and Padme after foretelling their deaths in dreams is a classic example of heroic hubris, as opposed to the villainous hubris you provide. Hubris doesn't mean pride to the exclusion of all else, it's pride to the point of thinking one can change the ways of the world. In Greek legends, this meant challenging the gods or defying the Fates through attempting to circumvent prophecy. In Star Wars, Anakin attempting to forestall death (and Palpatine attempting to do the same, which is initially brought up in ROTJ and then made hubris through the prequels in an actually fairly clever way) serves the same role. His arrogance and overconfidence in everything else serves to reinforce that, much as Oedipus' boasts in the opening of Sophocles do the same. While the writing in the prequels may not be that great, Lucas at least manages to put this together.

[Metahive]

In Star Wars, Anakin attempting to forestall death (and Palpatine attempting to do the same, which is initially brought up in ROTJ and then made hubris through the prequels in an actually fairly clever way) serves the same role.

Good thought. I must however object that, since the SW universe doesn't share the fatalistic attitude of greece mythology, it can't really be considered hybris when someone tries to protect his loved ones from harm, I would actually have put that as a trace of benevolence in Anakin rather than a crippling character flaw. That he tries to save Padme in the most hare-brainedly retarded manner possible is another matter. Rather than assuring that Padme gives birth in an as safe as possible environment, he instead joins the Sith and helps turning the Republic into a fascistic police state, all for some vague promise of getting taught something that Palpatine himself admits he hasn't figured out yet.

Smooth, Anakin, really smooth.

Hubris doesn't mean pride to the exclusion of all else, it's pride to the point of thinking one can change the ways of the world.

Niobe is an example of hybris yet she isn't trying to change the ways of the world, her pride blinded her to the consequences that arrogantly asserting superiority over the gods would bring about. Odysseus taunting Polyphemos and revealing his real name is another example of hybris that doesn't involve "world changing" aspirations, just people letting their pride get the better of them. I think my definition fits the term a bit better.

[Simon_Jester]

Or cocky banter. I already defined hybris above, it's not just being overly proud of one's abilities and accomplishments, it's being proud to the exclusion of everything else about it. Take the examples in classical myth, Niobe taunting Leto, mother of Apollon and Artemis, about having more children than her (the gods murder all her children), Tantalos trying to embarass the gods by making them eat his son (he gets to be forever hungry and thirsty), Sisyphos believing he could cheat death with his wit, which almost fucks up the entire world and ends with him getting banished to eternal punishment in the Tartaros. All knew that talking smack at the gods could have dire consequences not only for them and yet they thought themselves above it. Movieverse Anakin simply doesn't fit all that well into this mould.

An act of hybris on behalf of Anakin might be him charging at Count Dooku in their first confrontation and thereby botching nipping the Clone War in the bud, but that might as well be a result of him being angry about all the dead Jedi in the arena and distraught about the loss of Padme when she fell out of the LAAT. The writing in the prequel trilogy is just not all that great.

To take another example that's actually taught in literature classes, Oedipus never explicitly defied the gods, but rather attempted to defy prophecy. Anakin attempting to save his mother and Padme after foretelling their deaths in dreams is a classic example of heroic hubris, as opposed to the villainous hubris you provide. Hubris doesn't mean pride to the exclusion of all else, it's pride to the point of thinking one can change the ways of the world. In Greek legends, this meant challenging the gods or defying the Fates through attempting to circumvent prophecy. In Star Wars, Anakin attempting to forestall death (and Palpatine attempting to do the same, which is initially brought up in ROTJ and then made hubris through the prequels in an actually fairly clever way) serves the same role. His arrogance and overconfidence in everything else serves to reinforce that, much as Oedipus' boasts in the opening of Sophocles do the same. While the writing in the prequels may not be that great, Lucas at least manages to put this together.

True.

Interestingly, if we look at the way the ancient Greeks used the idea of hubris, it meant something a bit different to them than it does to literature teachers today. They would charge someone with the crime of "hubris" when that person committed something like assault and battery, or rape. Because to them, "hubris" didn't just mean "act of excessive pride." It means "an act taken to shame or humiliate the victim, in a way that gratifies the perpetrator." And committing such acts, while it did humiliate the victim, also reflected badly on the person doing it: for one citizen to beat up another in the street in ancient Athens humiliated the one who got the beating, but also showed that the one who dealt out the beating was not in control of his emotions and lacked respect for others. In shaming someone else, he shamed himself.

Hubris, in both the literary and legal senses, was often motivated by pride. When Greek heroes fell, it was often because they had grown so proud they committed acts of hubris against the gods- metaphorically speaking, they had slapped the gods in the face. When Oedipus attempts to defy prophecy and boasts about his virtues, he is slapping the gods (or the Fates) in the face, and they punish him accordingly.

Since Greek literature survived the ages while Greek jurisprudence didn't, the sense of "hubris" that survived to the present was the one found in the literature: acts of hubris against the gods, or against nature, which are committed by pridefully trying to overthrow the natural order or defy fate. But there's an underlying meaning of hubris that is somewhat more general, and more common; people who fall because of their overconfidence in their ability to control reality will usually also commit the 'lesser' hubris of wronging individuals in a way that reflects poorly on themselves.

It's interesting to look for examples of 'lesser hubris' in Anakin's character. We do see a few, the biggest one I can think of being the beheading of Count Dooku.
______

Also, Metahive? "Hybris" is a stupid spelling of the word. You're speaking in modern English like the rest of us, use it.

Good thought. I must however object that, since the SW universe doesn't share the fatalistic attitude of greece mythology, it can't really be considered hybris when someone tries to protect his loved ones from harm, I would actually have put that as a trace of benevolence in Anakin rather than a crippling character flaw. That he tries to save Padme in the most hare-brainedly retarded manner possible is another matter. Rather than assuring that Padme gives birth in an as safe as possible environment, he instead joins the Sith and helps turning the Republic into a fascistic police state, all for some vague promise of getting taught something that Palpatine himself admits he hasn't figured out yet.

What's missed here is that while the SW universe isn't as fatalistic as ancient Greek mythology, the Jedi internal culture is. Their notions of the Light Side of the Force are all about detaching oneself from the universe and submerging oneself in mysticism.

So what wouldn't be hubris in the eyes of someone on the street becomes hubris if you accept the basic premises of Jedi mysticism as being valid in-setting.

[Metahive]

Also, Metahive? "Hybris" is a stupid spelling of the word. You're speaking in modern English like the rest of us, use it.

"Hybris" is a perfectly acceptable spelling of the word in modern English if an unusual one. I personally prefer it over the spelling with an "u" because that's a spelling I consider stupid (would be like spelling "hyper" "huper"). Your objections have been noted and rejected.

What's missed here is that while the SW universe isn't as fatalistic as ancient Greek mythology, the Jedi internal culture is. Their notions of the Light Side of the Force are all about detaching oneself from the universe and submerging oneself in mysticism. So what wouldn't be hubris in the eyes of someone on the street becomes hubris if you accept the basic premises of Jedi mysticism as being valid in-setting.

That's contradicted pretty explicetely in the movies, consider this line from TESB:
YODA: "Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future."

Doesn't sound like a culture of fatalism to me. Maybe Republican era Jedi had a fatalistic outlook, but then I would ask you for evidence from the movies supporting it.

[Havok]

OK. First...

hu-bris
n
over weening pride or self-confidence: ARROGANCE

hu·bris
noun \ˈhyü-brəs\
Definition of HUBRIS
: exaggerated pride or self-confidence

hu·bris (hybrs) also hy·bris (h-)
n.
Overbearing pride or presumption; arrogance: "There is no safety in unlimited technological hubris" (McGeorge Bundy).
[Greek, excessive pride, wanton violence; see ud- in Indo-European roots.]
hu·bristic (-brstk) adj.
hu·bristic·al·ly adv.

hubris [ˈhjuːbrɪs], hybris
n
1. pride or arrogance
2. (Literary & Literary Critical Terms) (in Greek tragedy) an excess of ambition, pride, etc., ultimately causing the transgressor's ruin
[from Greek]
hubristic , hybristic adj

Go ahead and read that last one a few times if you need to champ. Alright, that should just about cover that...

And you don't see his confidence in his pod racing skills

Confidence in something he's genuinely good at means hybris? Let me explain, hybris is excessive pride in oneself coupled with never admitting wrongdoing, never asking for forgiveness and never taking the consequences that your actions might have for others into account. Hybris and pride are not synonymous!

Oh, you mean the thing he was SOOO good at, that he had never even finished a race? Yeah, no over confidence there that day.

his quest for more power

Craving power is not a sign of hybris, someone suffering from it already thinks he's top of the world powerful as explained above.

He already has power, and in case you hadn't noticed, he doesn't just crave power, but honestly feels he should be the most power Jedi ever. Even powerful enough to stave off death. Are you fucking kidding me? That isn't hubris?

balking at being given a seat on the council, but NOT being made a Master as hubris?

Little Paris getting a pony, just not the purty white one and subsequently stamping her feet and throwing a temper tantrum isn't a sign of hybris, it's one of immaturity. Achilleus sulking in his tent and wishing pain, death and defeat upon his fellow Greeks until they crawl back and beg for his help just for Agamemnon spurning him, that is hybris.

Again, moron, since you don't seem to be able to grasp what was beaten over your head, Anakin felt that he was just as powerful as any other Master in that room. He felt he was better than most. He pitched his fit because he wasn't given the rank he felt his power denoted. It's not that he didn't get what he wanted, it was that he felt it was an insult to his own perceived status. Did you even watch these movies?

And please, could you point out, when, at ANY time, Anakin is shown as spoiled or pampered? Is it when he was a slave on a desert planet with a bomb inside him, or when he was a member of an order of munks that favor a life of no comfort and no personal belongings? Please enlighten us with these apparently deleted scenes.

You just mentioned an example, Anakin's extremely unprofessional conduct on the council after he was denied the title of master, despite becoming a member of the council being already a great honor for someone as young as him. That's a sense of entitlement befitting a spoilt rotten.

Being unprofessional means you are spoiled and pampered now? Sorry, that doesn't even come close to being an example of him being pampered or spoiled which is what I asked for. And as I just pointed out, it is an example of someone that thinks that he is one of, if not the most powerful Jedi alive being looked down on and insulted. You know, like how he actually says it's insulting.

And complete asshole? When does that happen? When he helps out the strangers on Tattoine? Saves the Naboo people? Tries to save his mom? Tries to save his best friend and mentor? Falls in love with a girl? Tries to save the woman he loves? Doesn't want to betray his closest friend and confidant? Yeah what a dick.

He doesn't want to go and save his mentor, Padme blackmails him into doing it.

*sigh* NO. He does want to go. The council ORDERS him to stay with Padme and protect her. It is then when Padme pulls the 'Council said protect me and I'm going to save Obi-Wan!' card. Please. Watch the fucking movies if you are going to try to make these sad attempts to argue about them.

He tries to save his mom after not giving a shit for ten years and then massacres an entire village, women and children included (but they're evil untermenschen, so it's OK) when he fails in petty vengeance.

Oh for fucks... yeah, he doesn't care. Right. So I guess the dreams that have been haunting him, not allowing him to sleep, that Obi-Wan keeps telling him to ignore is him not giving a shit. I guess the tenants of the Jedi which call for attachments to be given up, even to family, is just him not giving a shit. You're a fucking idiot. And , yeah, he just finds his mother tortured to the brink of death and she dies in his arms. Then, he slaughters an entire village that he labels "animals". Yup, no over abundance of arrogance there.

His relationship with Padme is creepy and marked with obsessive jealousy, something for which he eventually sells out the Republic.

Uh and creepy has to do with what? Are you suggesting that he doesn't love her? And care to point out this 'obsessive jealousy'? I don't know why I ask, as you haven't shown anything else I have asked you to that you claim exist.

He massacres children that trusted in him, he cold-bloodedly tries to murder his wife because she sides with Obi Wan against his insanity.

Yeah, he is already Darth Vader at this point slugger. We are talking Anakin. Nice try though.

Throughout AOTC he fails at pretty much everything he tries through excessive dumbassery (even manages to lose his lightsaber, the "life of a Jedi", twice)

Obi-Wan lost his lightsaber as well in ROTS and in TPM... this means what? And what does he fail at? He stops the worms from killing Padme. He successfully chases down the assassin. He successfully accompanies Padme home. He successfully tracks down his mother before she died. He directs a successful attack on a droid control ship, he saves Obi-Wan from Dooku and only is defeated due to him being outmatched by an opponent that Yoda could not defeat. He is only briefly knocked unconscious by Dooku at first due to his arrogance in his abilities. Sorry, but once again, the facts don't back up what you claim.

and then whines about Obi Wan being at fault for "holding him back".

Again, because he feels that his abilities EXCEED his master's. Yup, no hubris there. And does this show him as an asshole? Or does it show him as an apprentice that feels he is ready to step out from behind his master, just as Obi-Wan felt in TPM. Yeah, he is a little whiny about it, but an asshole that does not make.

As for Palpatine, he's a friend, confidant AND Sith Lord who deliberately plunged the galaxy into a bloody war for petty gain by his own admission.

And he knows that? Oh that's right. No, he fucking doesn't. Geezus.

Notice that he's not against Palpatine getting his just desserts, just against Windu executing him on the spot because he wants to extract the knowledge of eternal life from him beforehand. That's true friendship for you.

At this point, he has been utterly betrayed by Palpatine and yes, his motives are selfish, I mean, what a jerk off for wanting to save his wife's life, , but notice that he is the ONLY person in that room that is still striving to do the right thing. Mace is in the middle of a coup, Palpatine is a traitor, and Anakin wants Mace to stay his hand and put him on trial. What a lame ass.

Movieverse Anakin is an asshole.

There is an asshole here, but it ain't Movieverse Anakin.

His heroics are thus, winning the Pod Race, accidentally destroying the droid control ship and defeating Dooku, but he botches the latter by murdering him. Funnily enough only the first is something he accomplished all by himself and for truly selfless reasons.

Catching Padme's attempted assassin. Saving Obi-Wan from Dooku. Saving Obi-Wan in his starfighter. Saving Obi-Wan on the crashing Separatist ship. Successfully landing half a capital ship, again saving Obi-Wan and Palpatine. Facts facts facts. Crazy facts.

You know, I think you are right, I won't believe for a moment that three movies are not time enough to set someone up as a tragic hero rather than a complete asshole either. I think they did a fine job and you are just an idiot.

Since you had to misrepresent the events of the movies pretty badly to arrive at this conclusion, I can safely reject it in good conscience.

You've made it pretty clear that you only know the movies from hearsay, so I think we can all just stick with calling you an idiot.

Oh yeah...

OK, I know hybris is an accepted version of hubris, but come the fuck on.

Come the fuck on what? Are we down to whining about me sticking closer to the original Greek? Get lost.

Hey, if you wanna keep on being a pretentious twit, like using that archaic spelling of Achilles, fine by me.

[Metahive]

Go ahead and read that last one a few times if you need to champ. Alright, that should just about cover that...

Dude, one thing about dictionaries is that they both cover specific and casual layman uses of the word. Just because the public at large abuses hybris as just another synonym for pride doesn't mean it's kosher to do so.

Oh, you mean the thing he was SOOO good at, that he had never even finished a race? Yeah, no over confidence there that day.

Pod races have high casualty rates as we see, simply surviving them is a feat on its own and that's just what we see in the movie. In the EU we are even told that humans are said to be physically unable to compete!

He already has power, and in case you hadn't noticed, he doesn't just crave power, but honestly feels he should be the most power Jedi ever. Even powerful enough to stave off death. Are you fucking kidding me? That isn't hubris?

No, because the movies go out of their way to enforce that impression. He's got OVER 9000 midichlorians after all ("more than Master Yoda"), is called the "most gifted student of the Force" by Yoda (in the 2D Clone Wars though) and he was conceived via a life creating force ritual, showing it's not out of the realm of possibility to look into it. It's not arrogance when the numbers and facts back you up. His own power is not something Anakin is sorely mistaken about, it's temperance and wisdom that he shuns.

Again, moron, since you don't seem to be able to grasp what was beaten over your head, Anakin felt that he was just as powerful as any other Master in that room. He felt he was better than most. He pitched his fit because he wasn't given the rank he felt his power denoted. It's not that he didn't get what he wanted, it was that he felt it was an insult to his own perceived status. Did you even watch these movies?

Tell me again how that's hybris rather than an immature sense of entitlement? Seniority and experience are much bigger factors when it comes to a seat in the council or the rank of master than just raw midichlorian counts, both things Anakin lacks. I might remind you that he also got knighted ahead of time and without having to go through the necessary trials, so him throwing a hissy fit here, after receiving a great honor is just childish and ungrateful to the extreme.

I might also add that the novelization added a wholly different reason for Anakin's outrage, the rank of master was required to have access to Jedi Holocrons which Anakin hoped would contain knowledge about life preserving measures, so there you go.

Being unprofessional means you are spoiled and pampered now? Sorry, that doesn't even come close to being an example of him being pampered or spoiled which is what I asked for. And as I just pointed out, it is an example of someone that thinks that he is one of, if not the most powerful Jedi alive being looked down on and insulted. You know, like how he actually says it's insulting.

If you don't see this as the actions of a spoilt rotten, I can't help you. Read what I wrote above.

*sigh* NO. He does want to go. The council ORDERS him to stay with Padme and protect her. It is then when Padme pulls the 'Council said protect me and I'm going to save Obi-Wan!' card. Please. Watch the fucking movies if you are going to try to make these sad attempts to argue about them.

Maybe you should heed your own advice.

INTERIOR: COCKPIT, NABOO STARSHIP - SUNSET

ANAKIN and PADMÉ watch a hologram of MACE WINDU.

MACE WINDU: (V.O.) Anakin, We will deal with Count Dooku.
The most important thing for you is to stay where you are.
Protect the Senator at all costs. That is your first
priority.

ANAKIN: Understood, Master.

The hologram switches off. PADMÉ is looking at the readout
on the ship's control panel.

PADMÉ: They'll never get there in time to save him. They
have to come halfway across the galaxy. Look, Geonosis is
less than a parsec away.

PADMÉ starts to hit buttons and flick switches. ANAKIN puts
a hand over hers, stopping her. She stares at him.

ANAKIN: If he's still alive.

PADMÉ: Annie, are you just going to sit here and let him
die?? He's your friend... your mentor...

ANAKIN: He's like my father, but you heard Master Windu. He
gave me strict orders to stay here.

PADMÉ: He gave you strict orders to protect me...

PADMÉ pulls her hand free and flicks more switches. The
engines fire.

PADMÉ: ...and I'm going to save Obi-Wan. So if you plan to
protect me, you will have to come along.

"Oooh, who knows, maybe he's already dead". Yeah, that's some eagerness. Do not ever think you can lecture me about what happens in the movies again, it's clear now you are working from rose-tinted fanboy memory.

Oh for fucks... yeah, he doesn't care. Right. So I guess the dreams that have been haunting him, not allowing him to sleep, that Obi-Wan keeps telling him to ignore is him not giving a shit. I guess the tenants of the Jedi which call for attachments to be given up, even to family, is just him not giving a shit. You're a fucking idiot. And , yeah, he just finds his mother tortured to the brink of death and she dies in his arms. Then, he slaughters an entire village that he labels "animals". Yup, no over abundance of arrogance there.

He had ten years to give a shit about her whereabouts, but he didn't even bother to find out that she was freed and married. That's great filial piety right here. Also, slaughtering people in murderous rage is not arrogance, that's...murderous rage. Are you frickin' autistic that you're so unable to correctly identify mindsets and feelings?

Uh and creepy has to do with what? Are you suggesting that he doesn't love her? And care to point out this 'obsessive jealousy'? I don't know why I ask, as you haven't shown anything else I have asked you to that you claim exist.

If you don't find obsessive jealousy creepy that's not my problem, that's just you being unable to relate to people, even fictional ones on an emotional plain again.

Yeah, he is already Darth Vader at this point slugger. We are talking Anakin. Nice try though.

I do not count Anakin and Vader as two different people, sorry. Anakin's neither possessed or otherwise brainwashed into becoming Vader, that's all his own doing and a result of his own choices. Also, if Vader and Anakin are indeed completely seperate entities then what's the point of Luke trying to redeem him? He should have called for an exorcist instead.

Obi-Wan lost his lightsaber as well in ROTS and in TPM... this means what? And what does he fail at? He stops the worms from killing Padme. He successfully chases down the assassin. He successfully accompanies Padme home. He successfully tracks down his mother before she died. He directs a successful attack on a droid control ship, he saves Obi-Wan from Dooku and only is defeated due to him being outmatched by an opponent that Yoda could not defeat. He is only briefly knocked unconscious by Dooku at first due to his arrogance in his abilities. Sorry, but once again, the facts don't back up what you claim.

He does not successfully chase the assassin down, he almost manages to lose him when he suggests a shortcut and then does a retarded stunt that causes both to crash and the assassin to run away. The only reason they managed to catch up is because the assassin stupidly tried to sneak up on Obi Wan for no reason. He also only has to save Obi Wan from Dooku because he charged like an idiot at Dooku and got himself knocked out. Yoda is not outmatched by Dooku, Dooku has to resort to putting Obi Wan's and Anakin's life in danger to distract him and get away. Didn't watch the movies in years, eh?
Do not lecture me about facts when you have to distort them in a frankly outrageous manner.

Again, because he feels that his abilities EXCEED his master's. Yup, no hubris there. And does this show him as an asshole? Or does it show him as an apprentice that feels he is ready to step out from behind his master, just as Obi-Wan felt in TPM. Yeah, he is a little whiny about it, but an asshole that does not make.

Given that, as already outlined, Anakin's problem is mainly one of lack of moderation and experience, the value of which the stoic Jedi should have pummeled into his skull in the ten years between TPM and AOTC, it is indeed pretty assholish for him to be such a whiny hoser anyway. TPM's Anakin was more mature than his Christensen incarnation, what the fuck went wrong?

And he knows that? Oh that's right. No, he fucking doesn't. Geezus.

So given that he finds out Palpy is a Sith Lord, and that there's a rule of two for Sith, as Yoda explains in TPM, meaning that Dooku was affiliated to him, Anakin is too stupid to add two and two together? You know, I think Anakin is a moron, but not that much of a moron.

At this point, he has been utterly betrayed by Palpatine and yes, his motives are selfish, I mean, what a jerk off for wanting to save his wife's life, , but notice that he is the ONLY person in that room that is still striving to do the right thing. Mace is in the middle of a coup, Palpatine is a traitor, and Anakin wants Mace to stay his hand and put him on trial. What a lame ass.

You were the one talking about how much of a friend Palps and Anakin were. I would also dispute that saving Palps at this point was Anakin trying to do the "right thing" given that immediately afterwards he sells out on a whim and seals the end of the Jedi Order and the Republic. Lameass doesn't quite capture it.

Catching Padme's attempted assassin. Saving Obi-Wan from Dooku. Saving Obi-Wan in his starfighter. Saving Obi-Wan on the crashing Separatist ship. Successfully landing half a capital ship, again saving Obi-Wan and Palpatine. Facts facts facts. Crazy facts.

Needing Obi Wan to capture the assassin, botching the rescue on Geonosis and needing to be rescued himself, allowing Dooku to fight them one-on-one thereby ensuring his getaway and preventing the Clone War from getting nipped in the bud,, selling out the Republic, killing children, killing your wife, building up a fascist police state. Facts facts facts. Crazy facts.

You've made it pretty clear that you only know the movies from hearsay, so I think we can all just stick with calling you an idiot.

Textbook irony, douchebag.

Hey, if you wanna keep on being a pretentious twit, like using that archaic spelling of Achilles, fine by me.

From down below the bottom of the barrel where you dwell pretty much everyone with at least half a clue must look like a pretentious twit.

I'm done with you. It's been made clear that you're the one here needing to watch the movies again AND pay closer attention before you can spout off. A hearty fuck from the olympic heights to the pretentious cave-dwelling imbecile below.

[Bakustra]

In Star Wars, Anakin attempting to forestall death (and Palpatine attempting to do the same, which is initially brought up in ROTJ and then made hubris through the prequels in an actually fairly clever way) serves the same role.

Good thought. I must however object that, since the SW universe doesn't share the fatalistic attitude of greece mythology, it can't really be considered hybris when someone tries to protect his loved ones from harm, I would actually have put that as a trace of benevolence in Anakin rather than a crippling character flaw. That he tries to save Padme in the most hare-brainedly retarded manner possible is another matter. Rather than assuring that Padme gives birth in an as safe as possible environment, he instead joins the Sith and helps turning the Republic into a fascistic police state, all for some vague promise of getting taught something that Palpatine himself admits he hasn't figured out yet.

Smooth, Anakin, really smooth.

Oedipus acts entirely benevolently, even heroically for the information he knows and the cultural beliefs of the Greeks, but he nevertheless ends up committing the most monstrous acts a Greek could, patricide and incest. Tragic heroes are often those whose flaw or flaws are not bad in and of themselves (consider Othello) but instead open them up to the actions which destroy them.

While SW as a whole doesn't share that attitude of fatalism, the Jedi do (going all the way back to ESB) and while I think that the Jedi are often wrong in the context of the films, the problem that Anakin has is that he accepts the idea of fate but believes he can defy it. He also sees his mother die in front of him because he took direct action to save her, and Palpatine is the only person who's willing to help him- or so he thinks.

Hubris doesn't mean pride to the exclusion of all else, it's pride to the point of thinking one can change the ways of the world.

Niobe is an example of hybris yet she isn't trying to change the ways of the world, her pride blinded her to the consequences that arrogantly asserting superiority over the gods would bring about. Odysseus taunting Polyphemos and revealing his real name is another example of hybris that doesn't involve "world changing" aspirations, just people letting their pride get the better of them. I think my definition fits the term a bit better.

The Greeks believed that the way of the world was that the gods were on top. Asserting superiority over the gods is trying to change the ways of the world by propelling yourself up to their rank, (nefarious social climbing) like Cassiopeia and Arachne. Odysseus taunting Polyphemus is daring Poseidon, Polyphemus' divine father, to wreak his vengeance upon him and his crew, and is again asserting his superiority (if indirectly) via claiming that he can mutilate the children of Poseidon at will. And so Poseidon answers.

Also, with regards to transcription of ancient Greek into English, which do you prefer as a spelling for the friend of Patroclus and son of Thetis, Achilles, Achilleus, Akhilleus, or Akhilles?

What's missed here is that while the SW universe isn't as fatalistic as ancient Greek mythology, the Jedi internal culture is. Their notions of the Light Side of the Force are all about detaching oneself from the universe and submerging oneself in mysticism. So what wouldn't be hubris in the eyes of someone on the street becomes hubris if you accept the basic premises of Jedi mysticism as being valid in-setting.

That's contradicted pretty explicetely in the movies, consider this line from TESB:
YODA: "Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future."

Doesn't sound like a culture of fatalism to me. Maybe Republican era Jedi had a fatalistic outlook, but then I would ask you for evidence from the movies supporting it.

YODA: Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is.

Right from the ROTS script. In addition, Yoda in TESB says, in response to Luke saying "I can't just let them die":

YODA: If you honor what they fight for, then yes.

Right after the TESB quote. The Jedi have a fairly fatalistic outlook on death.

[Metahive]

Oedipus acts entirely benevolently, even heroically for the information he knows and the cultural beliefs of the Greeks, but he nevertheless ends up committing the most monstrous acts a Greek could, patricide and incest. Tragic heroes are often those whose flaw or flaws are not bad in and of themselves (consider Othello) but instead open them up to the actions which destroy them.

I would however argue that Oedipus doesn't kill Laios out of hybris but out of unbridled anger over a cowardly attack from behind, a spur of the moment action fueled by a lack of moderation (hey, something he shares with Anakin). Othello is one case that had me face-palming throughout. Hey dude, how about hearing out your spouse's side of the issue? How about not unquestioningly trusting that shifty-eyed n'er do well, "Honest" Iago? The play makes it rather hard for me to sympathize with the protagonist because of this.

While SW as a whole doesn't share that attitude of fatalism, the Jedi do (going all the way back to ESB) and while I think that the Jedi are often wrong in the context of the films, the problem that Anakin has is that he accepts the idea of fate but believes he can defy it. He also sees his mother die in front of him because he took direct action to save her, and Palpatine is the only person who's willing to help him- or so he thinks.

Emm, you did notice I quoted from ESB where this idea of fatalistic Jedi is thorogouhly rejected? "Always in motion the future is". Yoda implores Luke to abstain from mindless actionism because he can't trust the force vision to have told him the whole story and he's right, not only do his friends manage to escape on their own, he runs right into a trap set for him and gets out with serious physical and psychological scars.
Interestingly all characters in the whole movie hexalogy who act on visions from the Force tend to get shafted by it, as if the Force is taunting them.

The Greeks believed that the way of the world was that the gods were on top. Asserting superiority over the gods is trying to change the ways of the world by propelling yourself up to their rank, (nefarious social climbing) like Cassiopeia and Arachne. Odysseus taunting Polyphemus is daring Poseidon, Polyphemus' divine father, to wreak his vengeance upon him and his crew, and is again asserting his superiority (if indirectly) via claiming that he can mutilate the children of Poseidon at will. And so Poseidon answers.

Didn't dispute that, just the "hybris is always an act of trying to change the world" bit. Not acknowledging the established order maybe, but not necessarily an attempt to overthrow it.

Also, with regards to transcription of ancient Greek into English, which do you prefer as a spelling for the friend of Patroclus and son of Thetis, Achilles, Achilleus, Akhilleus, or Akhilles?

I used Achilleus because of Havok's fit of Grammar Nazidom. I'm OK with the usual spelling of "Achilles" and "Patroclus" instead of "Patroklos". It's just that I deplore the transcription of "ὕβρις" as "hubris". Just because it looks like a modern "u" doesn't mean it has to be taken as such. Nobody spells it "hupersensitivíty" or "Dionusos" either.

YODA: Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is.

Right from the ROTS script. In addition, Yoda in TESB says, in response to Luke saying "I can't just let them die":

YODA: If you honor what they fight for, then yes.

Right after the TESB quote. The Jedi have a fairly fatalistic outlook on death.

I do not take that as a message that fates are unavoidable, just that death shouldn't be taken as an ultimate evil. I must also add that when Luke says he can't let them die, Obi Wan objects and tells him he can't possibly know that they will.

LUKE: I can't keep the vision out of my head. They're my friends. I've
got to help them.

YODA: You must not go!

LUKE: But Han and Leia will die if I don't.

BEN'S VOICE: You don't know that.

Luke looks toward the voice in amazement. Ben has
materialized as a real, slightly shimmering image near Yoda.
The power of his presence stops Luke.

BEN: Even Yoda cannot see their fate.

I do not take that as a support for Jedi fatalism, rather the opposite, at the very least as a plea to think things through rather than to act on half-knowledge.

[Darth Tedious]

Again, I don't want to delve deep into this (now pretty fierce) debate, but this caught my attention.

Needing Obi Wan to capture the assassin, botching the rescue on Geonosis and needing to be rescued himself, allowing Dooku to fight them one-on-one thereby ensuring his getaway and preventing the Clone War from getting nipped in the bud,, selling out the Republic, killing children, killing your wife, building up a fascist police state. Facts facts facts. Crazy facts.

Did I miss something?

[Metahive]

He might not have strangled her to death directly, but it were his actions that caused her to "lose the will to live". I do not find that disputable unless you have information that it was actually the medical droid who clubbed her to death when Obi Wan wasn't looking.

Wouldn't put it past that bugger actually.

[Darth Tedious]

Those medical droids can be a shifty bunch...

On a slight diversion while things are quiet, have you read Mike Wong's theory about what may have caused her death? It's pretty neat, and actually puts more (albeit unconscious) responsibility for Padme's death on Anakin/Vader.

[Metahive]

A pregnant woman had just lived through several heavy emotional shocks (Republic becomes a dictatorship, her husband is a childkiller etc.) and suffered physical trauma severe enough to put her unconscious for more than five minutes yet they can't find anything wrong with her physically? I never trusted that medical droid, especially when he put Padme in the most unsafe position possible to give birth. He must have been angry about all his droid compatriots he lost in the Clone War. Hey, maybe he was a covert op like R3-S6.

[Simon_Jester]

The Jedi may not believe in their own ability to accurately perceive the future, but that doesn't mean they don't believe in fate. The entire idea that their visions are even meaningful, that they have access to truths about the world via mysticism, depends on the idea that they can perceive things which are fated to happen, however imperfectly.

All that talk about destiny is meaningful. The Jedi preoccupation with the prophecy about the Chosen One in the prequels, that's meaningful. There's something there that underlies their worldview, and it's a very reasonable philosophy to adopt given that their Force abilities really do give them considerable power to see events in advance by way of clairvoyance.

They don't always assume they know what's going to happen in advance. But when they're confident enough in a given vision or premonition, they do tend to treat it like a fundamental reality of the world, rather than some possibility which they can avert easily by acting on it.

[Metahive]

The biggest gripe I have with the notion of the Jedi as fatalists is, well, they do not appear to be very accepting of fate and destiny, they do actually work hard to improve their own lives and those of the galaxy at large. If they were destiny-compliant fatalists they might as well just sit in their temple and meditate all day since everything happens according to the "will of the Force" anyway, but that's not what they do. They do not regard the Clone War, the rise of the Sith or the Empire as fait accompli that was destined to happen, they actively go out and try to avert what they regard to be a potentially bad future. No, they're are most certainly not fatalists, their whole self-proclaimed purpose as guardians of peace in the galaxy proves it wrong.

[Havok]

Go ahead and read that last one a few times if you need to champ. Alright, that should just about cover that...

Dude, one thing about dictionaries is that they both cover specific and casual layman uses of the word. Just because the public at large abuses hybris as just another synonym for pride doesn't mean it's kosher to do so.

In other words, you dismiss the accepted, correct use of the word for your own personal one. Gotchya.

Oh, you mean the thing he was SOOO good at, that he had never even finished a race? Yeah, no over confidence there that day.

Pod races have high casualty rates as we see, simply surviving them is a feat on its own and that's just what we see in the movie. In the EU we are even told that humans are said to be physically unable to compete!

Actually dumbass, Anakin says that in the movie. Further evidence that you haven't actually seen the movies. And way not to address the point. Seems par for the course for you.

He already has power, and in case you hadn't noticed, he doesn't just crave power, but honestly feels he should be the most power Jedi ever. Even powerful enough to stave off death. Are you fucking kidding me? That isn't hubris?

No, because the movies go out of their way to enforce that impression. He's got OVER 9000 midichlorians after all ("more than Master Yoda"), is called the "most gifted student of the Force" by Yoda (in the 2D Clone Wars though) and he was conceived via a life creating force ritual, showing it's not out of the realm of possibility to look into it. It's not arrogance when the numbers and facts back you up. His own power is not something Anakin is sorely mistaken about, it's temperance and wisdom that he shuns.

So feeling that you should be more powerful than DEATH is not hubris by your standard? And are you actually saying that because he is actually capable of the things he is completely over arrogant about, that he can't be arrogant about them? Oh my gawd, you are a fucking moron.

Again, moron, since you don't seem to be able to grasp what was beaten over your head, Anakin felt that he was just as powerful as any other Master in that room. He felt he was better than most. He pitched his fit because he wasn't given the rank he felt his power denoted. It's not that he didn't get what he wanted, it was that he felt it was an insult to his own perceived status. Did you even watch these movies?

Tell me again how that's hybris rather than an immature sense of entitlement? Seniority and experience are much bigger factors when it comes to a seat in the council or the rank of master than just raw midichlorian counts, both things Anakin lacks. I might remind you that he also got knighted ahead of time and without having to go through the necessary trials, so him throwing a hissy fit here, after receiving a great honor is just childish and ungrateful to the extreme.

So again, it's not hubris because of your say so, even though the facts and definitions show that it is. And how is it an immature sense of entitlement, when you just spent the above talking about how the "numbers and facts" back it up. It can't be immature if it's a fact right?

I might also add that the novelization added a wholly different reason for Anakin's outrage, the rank of master was required to have access to Jedi Holocrons which Anakin hoped would contain knowledge about life preserving measures, so there you go.

Yup, there goes Anakin wanting to save his wife again. Such an asshole. If anything that just shows that it isn't an immature sense of entitlement, like you claim, and that he is mearly frustrated that he can not save his wife be an asshole.

Being unprofessional means you are spoiled and pampered now? Sorry, that doesn't even come close to being an example of him being pampered or spoiled which is what I asked for. And as I just pointed out, it is an example of someone that thinks that he is one of, if not the most powerful Jedi alive being looked down on and insulted. You know, like how he actually says it's insulting.

If you don't see this as the actions of a spoilt rotten, I can't help you. Read what I wrote above.

HEY RETARD. You still have not shown an example of him BEING SPOILED or PAMPERED as I have repeatedly asked. WHEN AND WHERE DOES THAT HAPPEN? You can not just say someone is spoiled because they are shown getting insulted and being upset about it. You have to prove that they are spoiled and pampered as you claim with actual evidence as required by the rules of the site. And now, as I pointed out above, it obviously isn't anything you have claimed it is.

*sigh* NO. He does want to go. The council ORDERS him to stay with Padme and protect her. It is then when Padme pulls the 'Council said protect me and I'm going to save Obi-Wan!' card. Please. Watch the fucking movies if you are going to try to make these sad attempts to argue about them.

Maybe you should heed your own advice.

INTERIOR: COCKPIT, NABOO STARSHIP - SUNSET

ANAKIN and PADMÉ watch a hologram of MACE WINDU.

MACE WINDU: (V.O.) Anakin, We will deal with Count Dooku.
The most important thing for you is to stay where you are.
Protect the Senator at all costs. That is your first
priority.

ANAKIN: Understood, Master.

The hologram switches off. PADMÉ is looking at the readout
on the ship's control panel.

PADMÉ: They'll never get there in time to save him. They
have to come halfway across the galaxy. Look, Geonosis is
less than a parsec away.

PADMÉ starts to hit buttons and flick switches. ANAKIN puts
a hand over hers, stopping her. She stares at him.

ANAKIN: If he's still alive.

PADMÉ: Annie, are you just going to sit here and let him
die?? He's your friend... your mentor...

ANAKIN: He's like my father, but you heard Master Windu. He
gave me strict orders to stay here.

PADMÉ: He gave you strict orders to protect me...

PADMÉ pulls her hand free and flicks more switches. The
engines fire.

PADMÉ: ...and I'm going to save Obi-Wan. So if you plan to
protect me, you will have to come along.

"Oooh, who knows, maybe he's already dead". Yeah, that's some eagerness. Do not ever think you can lecture me about what happens in the movies again, it's clear now you are working from rose-tinted fanboy memory.

Lets see: Anakin wants to rescue Obi-Wan. Check.
He is ordered to NOT do so and stay and protect Padme. Check.
Padme insists on going to help Obi-Wan. Check.
Anakin by virtue of his order, has to go with her. Check.

Thanks for quoting the relevant scene to prove exactly what I just said.

So care to show where the BLACK MAIL is that you claim happened? No? How about you just keep finding things that don't actually exist.

Oh for fucks... yeah, he doesn't care. Right. So I guess the dreams that have been haunting him, not allowing him to sleep, that Obi-Wan keeps telling him to ignore is him not giving a shit. I guess the tenants of the Jedi which call for attachments to be given up, even to family, is just him not giving a shit. You're a fucking idiot. And , yeah, he just finds his mother tortured to the brink of death and she dies in his arms. Then, he slaughters an entire village that he labels "animals". Yup, no over abundance of arrogance there.

He had ten years to give a shit about her whereabouts, but he didn't even bother to find out that she was freed and married. That's great filial piety right here. Also, slaughtering people in murderous rage is not arrogance, that's...murderous rage. Are you frickin' autistic that you're so unable to correctly identify mindsets and feelings?

I'm sure all our autistic members will appreciate using that as an insult, but that is another matter.
And please. People go years without seeing loved ones. It doesn't mean they don't give a shit about them. And nice how you just IGNORE the FACT that the Jedi forbid personal attachments. I.E. Contact with Anakin's mother. Obi-Wan hadn't seen his mom since he was around one. Is he an asshole too? Your arguments are pathetic.

Uh and creepy has to do with what? Are you suggesting that he doesn't love her? And care to point out this 'obsessive jealousy'? I don't know why I ask, as you haven't shown anything else I have asked you to that you claim exist.

If you don't find obsessive jealousy creepy that's not my problem, that's just you being unable to relate to people, even fictional ones on an emotional plain again

Are you fucking stupid? I ask you "how he is an asshole?" One of the replies are that "His relationship with Padme is creepy and marked with obsessive jealousy" To which I reply with the above quote, to which you reply to with the above gibberish. Is this getting too complicated for you? HOW DOES BEING CREEPY MAKE ANAKIN AN ASSHOLE? PLEASE SHOW THE EXAMPLES OF OBSESSIVE JEALOUSY THAT YOU CLAIM EXIST.

Yeah, he is already Darth Vader at this point slugger. We are talking Anakin. Nice try though.

I do not count Anakin and Vader as two different people, sorry. Anakin's neither possessed or otherwise brainwashed into becoming Vader, that's all his own doing and a result of his own choices. Also, if Vader and Anakin are indeed completely seperate entities then what's the point of Luke trying to redeem him? He should have called for an exorcist instead.

Really? Really? OK, lets do this...

YODA: Twisted by the dark side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is . . . Consumed by Darth Vader.

The good man who was your father, was destroyed.

Hmmm. Who are we going to listen to? Someone that can barely comprehend the movies or the foremost experts on the Sith and Jedi?

Obi-Wan lost his lightsaber as well in ROTS and in TPM... this means what? And what does he fail at? He stops the worms from killing Padme. He successfully chases down the assassin. He successfully accompanies Padme home. He successfully tracks down his mother before she died. He directs a successful attack on a droid control ship, he saves Obi-Wan from Dooku and only is defeated due to him being outmatched by an opponent that Yoda could not defeat. He is only briefly knocked unconscious by Dooku at first due to his arrogance in his abilities. Sorry, but once again, the facts don't back up what you claim.

He does not successfully chase the assassin down, he almost manages to lose him when he suggests a shortcut and then does a retarded stunt that causes both to crash and the assassin to run away. The only reason they managed to catch up is because the assassin stupidly tried to sneak up on Obi Wan for no reason.

Right. Anakin and Obi-Wan caught the assassin, and if Anakin doesn't do that 'retarded stunt' (which was perfectly executed by the way) they have no chance of catching her.

See the thing here is you see Anakin is not PERFECT and you mindlessly equate it to "fails at pretty much everything he tries through excessive dumbassery"
That is fucking idiotic.

He also only has to save Obi Wan from Dooku because he charged like an idiot at Dooku and got himself knocked out.

Right, when he wasn't being hubristic about his abilities. Like you said though, He saves Obi-Wan from Dooku. Thank you.

Yoda is not outmatched by Dooku, Dooku has to resort to putting Obi Wan's and Anakin's life in danger to distract him and get away. Didn't watch the movies in years, eh?

Uh... so Yoda failed, and that is Anakin's fault some how? Care to explain that?

Do not lecture me about facts when you have to distort them in a frankly outrageous manner.

Please, show me ONE fact that I have distorted. That I have not presented exactly how it is seen on screen.

Again, because he feels that his abilities EXCEED his master's. Yup, no hubris there. And does this show him as an asshole? Or does it show him as an apprentice that feels he is ready to step out from behind his master, just as Obi-Wan felt in TPM. Yeah, he is a little whiny about it, but an asshole that does not make.

Given that, as already outlined, Anakin's problem is mainly one of lack of moderation and experience, the value of which the stoic Jedi should have pummeled into his skull in the ten years between TPM and AOTC, it is indeed pretty assholish for him to be such a whiny hoser anyway. TPM's Anakin was more mature than his Christensen incarnation, what the fuck went wrong?

My gawd. You finally picked up something from the movie that you were supposed to! What the fuck went wrong indeed?

And he knows that? Oh that's right. No, he fucking doesn't. Geezus.

So given that he finds out Palpy is a Sith Lord, and that there's a rule of two for Sith, as Yoda explains in TPM, meaning that Dooku was affiliated to him, Anakin is too stupid to add two and two together? You know, I think Anakin is a moron, but not that much of a moron.

Oh wow you really are this fucking dumb. Anakin is asked to betray Palpatine, by the Jedi, far before he has any inkling that Palpatine is the Sith Master they have been hunting. So that also means that he is unaware of any connection between Dooku and Palpatine, especially as it pertains to them both being Sith. WATCH THE FUCKING MOVIES PLEASE!

At this point, he has been utterly betrayed by Palpatine and yes, his motives are selfish, I mean, what a jerk off for wanting to save his wife's life, , but notice that he is the ONLY person in that room that is still striving to do the right thing. Mace is in the middle of a coup, Palpatine is a traitor, and Anakin wants Mace to stay his hand and put him on trial. What a lame ass.

You were the one talking about how much of a friend Palps and Anakin were.

THAT WAS BEFORE HE LEARNED PALPATINE WAS THE SITH LORD HE WAS HUNTING AND THAT HE HAD BEEN BETRAYING ANAKIN SINCE THE DAY HE MET HIM.

I would also dispute that saving Palps at this point was Anakin trying to do the "right thing" given that immediately afterwards he sells out on a whim and seals the end of the Jedi Order and the Republic.

You can 'dispute' it all you fucking want, it is exactly what happened.

Lameass doesn't quite capture it.

Oh, it sums up you and your posts very nicely

Catching Padme's attempted assassin. Saving Obi-Wan from Dooku. Saving Obi-Wan in his starfighter. Saving Obi-Wan on the crashing Separatist ship. Successfully landing half a capital ship, again saving Obi-Wan and Palpatine. Facts facts facts. Crazy facts.

Needing Obi Wan to capture the assassin, botching the rescue on Geonosis and needing to be rescued himself, allowing Dooku to fight them one-on-one thereby ensuring his getaway and preventing the Clone War from getting nipped in the bud, selling out the Republic, killing children, killing your wife, building up a fascist police state. Facts facts facts. Crazy facts.

You're right those are facts and do you know what they show? That Anakin Skywalker is not perfect. GASP! That is it. You think he has to be perfect.
Let's break your little list down anyway:
Needing Obi Wan to capture the assassin: Without Anakin getting the speeder, doing his 'retarded stunt' and forcing the assassin down, Obi-Wan never even gets close. Where is the "excessive dumbassery".
Botching the rescue on Geonosis and needing to be rescued himself: Not perfect GASP, but does it have anything to "excessive dumbassery" as you claim? Prove it.
Allowing Dooku to fight them one-on-one thereby ensuring his getaway and preventing the Clone War from getting nipped in the bud: So it isn't Obi-Wan or Yoda's fault this happened? Just Anakin's?
Selling out the Republic: Hi, I'm Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith.
Killing children: Evil Sith Lord.
Killing your wife: Didn't actually do this, but I'll give it to you. Again, though, Vader, Darth Vader. I kill people.
Building up a fascist police state: Hey, I'm Darth Vader. have you met my buddy Darth Sidious?

You've made it pretty clear that you only know the movies from hearsay, so I think we can all just stick with calling you an idiot.

Textbook irony, douchebag.

Are you sure? You can't even get text book hubris down.

Hey, if you wanna keep on being a pretentious twit, like using that archaic spelling of Achilles, fine by me.

From down below the bottom of the barrel where you dwell pretty much everyone with at least half a clue must look like a pretentious twit.

This is actually a pretty good one.

I'm done with you. It's been made clear that you're the one here needing to watch the movies again AND pay closer attention before you can spout off. A hearty fuck from the olympic heights to the pretentious cave-dwelling imbecile below.

Actually champ, you aren't done with me, unless you care to concede. I have posed questions and demands for proof that you have come nowhere close to providing. So either do so, or concede the argument.



Oh yeah.
Text book hubris. Literally.

Hubris (Hybris) Greek for "insolence," excessive pride that constitutes the protagonist's tragic flaw and leads to a downfall. Disastrous consequences result when hubris causes the protagonist to ignore a wise warning from a god or other important figure, to violate some moral rule, or to try to transcend ordinary limits.

[Metahive]

Havok, I already said I'm not going to further discuss this with you, someone who's either too lazy or too much of dishonest fuck to get the events of the movies right is not worthy of discussion. You either just outright lie ("Anakin caught Zam Vassel [Obi Wan did]") or you omit the incrimating stuff ("Anakin saved Obi Wan from Dooku [after he brought him into this predicament through his own stupidity]"). If that's how you plan to conduct yourself in this debate, there's simply no point going any further. I also out of principle do not discuss with people who try to present Anakin and Vader as two different persons, that's for me the height of prequel fanboyism, as it robs the OT of most of his drama just to make Anakin look a bit better. Fuck you.

What windmills are you tilting at anyway? I never said that Anakin doesn't do anything decent in the movies, just that I think the fuck-ups outweigh the good actions and that I therefore can't empathize with him as a "tragic" hero. The temerity! On hybris, yeah, sorry, but there I prefer the professional definition over popular equivocations. Bakustra does a much better job debating about that than you anyway.

That's my final post to you in this thread. Have a nice day, sir.

[Havok]

Fair enough.
Concession accepted.