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Darth Wong wrote:

Thanas wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:2) The Jew wanking. Seriously, he actually made a point of saying that all of the great military leaders are always Jews. That stuck out to me like a sore thumb; I actually stopped reading for a minute out of shock, before I continued.

Wait,what? Doesn't he read his history?

In his fictional timeline, all the great future generals of humanity are Jewish. Apparently, less than 1% of the human population contains all of its military genius in the future. That's some real "Master Race" bullshit there.

Hilarious considering the fact that the Jews lost almost all wars with their neighbouring nations and that they were truly shitty generals, abandoning alliances and useful resources due to religious reasons throughout their history. They were only known for dieing en masse and guerilla actions. So where do those great genes suddenly come from? Do suddenly all military academies convert to Judaism en masse?

Sounds like the author is one of those crazy religious fundamentalists with a heavy dose of rascism thrown into the mix.

IIRC, the whole "Jew Master Generals" thing is debunked by Ender himself by calling attention to the fact that the dude that beat the Buggers the second time wasn't a Jew, and that all those great leaders had failed before him. It's a coincidence that one of the characters uses to justify his huge ego.

I could be completely off the mark, however. Been a few years since I've read the book.

Lord Relvenous wrote:IIRC, the whole "Jew Master Generals" thing is debunked by Ender himself by calling attention to the fact that the dude that beat the Buggers the second time wasn't a Jew, and that all those great leaders had failed before him. It's a coincidence that one of the characters uses to justify his huge ego.

I could be completely off the mark, however. Been a few years since I've read the book.

Pretty much yeah. The person advancing this theory is painted as a fucked up retard who is lucky he even manages to tie his own shoelaces together.

I'm reading Black Man, by Richard Morgan, and its a bit shit. With him going on about the differances bewteen hunter-gathers and ones who started agriculture. I don't think there is a difference, especially at a genteic level. I mean training soldiers from birth wouldn't you end up with social retards who can't function right in society like in the film Soldier? But Richard Morgan's books change, Altered Carbon great, Market Forces shit, Broken Angels and Woken Furies not as good as Altered Carbon but Woken Furies is better, though not now where as near as good as I thourght it should be.
With Tom Clancy and Dale Brown people just read them hoping they will be as good as when they were at their best. But neither am. Dale Brown's now are just utter crap. Used to be like Tom Clancy mixed with John Woo, now he's mixing all his books, together. I think he wrote two books about building B1 bombers able to shot down ICBMs with plasma missiles (yeah I know), yet it his latest he chucks in a laser space station from his book Silver Tower (not one of his McLanahan series). Why bother building anti-missiles when you have a space based laser with some super-duper radar that can shoot even ground targets?
While Eric L. Harry's Invasion is just stupid, try reading D.C Alden's Invasion. Stupid and a bit racist (its about a succesful Muslim Invasion of the whole of Europe. In about 5 days. With no seeing any build up.) I do like Eric L. Harry's other books - Arc Light and Protect and Defend.
Laurell K. Hamiltons. Anita Blake books past book 9, are really bad. 800 pages longer than they should be, as the main story only takes up about 100 pages and rest is a.) describing the long hair of vampires, werewolvs etc. b.)the leather bondage clothes they wear. c.) having sex with them. d.) then moaning about it, or arguing with other people about what she doing.

Atlan wrote:Orbitsville, by Bob Shaw.
And you'd be right, except for the fact that in the last chapter it is made clear that the Dyson sphere is a trap and makes you do those things. It's supposed to capture and hold everyone that comes across it, and it's heavily implied that it does so by mind control. It's been ages since I've read it, and I don't quite recall the reasons for this. I might still have the book somewhere.

Hurm I don't recall that part, but if it was there then yes the whole book makes sense. However as I recall it there was no mindcontrol, it was just that this is how people behaved with infinate land etc, etc, and the government or what not tried to cut people off because it removed their power. Of course it could be I misremember, or got so annoyed I didn't catch the last bit.

The Catcher In The Rye By JD Salinger, had to be the worst book I've ever read. It's completely pointless, we follow te protangonist: Holden Caulfield. Who whines. Constantly. We pick up his tale at a random point and we leave it again at a random point none the wiser and considerably more annoyed.

Ace Pace wrote:

Lord Relvenous wrote:IIRC, the whole "Jew Master Generals" thing is debunked by Ender himself by calling attention to the fact that the dude that beat the Buggers the second time wasn't a Jew, and that all those great leaders had failed before him. It's a coincidence that one of the characters uses to justify his huge ego.

I could be completely off the mark, however. Been a few years since I've read the book.

Pretty much yeah. The person advancing this theory is painted as a fucked up retard who is lucky he even manages to tie his own shoelaces together.

Putting it together in a slightly longer form what Card wrote was that ever since the 1st Bugger War the head military personnel have always been Jewish...maybe intentionally maybe not. In other words for roughly 100 odd years of Earth history starting at some point in the 21st century the international alliance to repel the Buggers always has a Jew as its cheif of staff due to the myth that "Jewish Generals Don't Lose" and card does speciically cal it a myth. He then points out that during the last big war all 3 of the top military offices (Hegemon, Polemarch, and Strategos) were held by Jews but the actual commander who won the battle, and did so after the main fleet was torched, was a "half-Maori New Zealander"

As an aside back to Mike's poitns:

1) I didn't see the "evil fascists suppresing religion" deal. Its moreso that Ender's parents get to practice non-conformance with population limitation laws that are in contravention of Catholic and Mormon doctrine. Whether such a law is neccesarry or not I think we could safely say that the Catholic Church and the LDS church would strongly object to universal laws limiting the number of children a family can have. Moreover the impressions of the conflict are supplied to Ender by Graff...whose purpose is to seperate Ender form his family as quickly as possible, and then by Ender's ignorance of Islam. Given that he wa raised in a hybrid Catholic/Mormon family in the US is it all that suprising that as of age 6 when he left he had no idea what Islam is? In other words I just don't see it, now that's not to say it isn't there because it most definately is in just about every book afterwards.

3) That's Dink and Ender. Several of the others seem just fine. Pol Slaterry and Carn Carby both appear very well adjusted and they are held out as relatively solid players. Moreover Alai is clearly a well adjusted individual and he is Ender's right hand man throgh the end of the book.

4) I can't speak to that. I think that the cycle of how he is broken down and recovers, how he faces each challenge is interesting. Sure its light on the actual details and I have trouble believing that a 22nd century space based military would be teaching formation battles in space as an ideal but as a depection of a training program for gifted kids being steered towards the military I think its a rather interesting exercise, but your mileage may vary.

Darth Wong wrote:How do people like this get publishers?

In some cases, it's because they're famous, and their fans are gullible enough to buy anything with their name on it. In others, it's because the books appeal to the sociopathic nuts in a certain fringe; 'The Turner Diaries' appeal to white supremists and anti-Semitics who want nothing more than to kill every Jew and non-white person in the US, and '"Gore" misspelled' appeals to sadists and masochists.

I'm a sadist and also a bit of a masochist, and Gor does not appeal to me. Just pointing out even I think that series is a steaming pile of shit.

CmdrWilkens wrote: Putting it together in a slightly longer form what Card wrote was that ever since the 1st Bugger War the head military personnel have always been Jewish...maybe intentionally maybe not. In other words for roughly 100 odd years of Earth history starting at some point in the 21st century the international alliance to repel the Buggers always has a Jew as its cheif of staff due to the myth that "Jewish Generals Don't Lose" and card does speciically cal it a myth. He then points out that during the last big war all 3 of the top military offices (Hegemon, Polemarch, and Strategos) were held by Jews but the actual commander who won the battle, and did so after the main fleet was torched, was a "half-Maori New Zealander"

Thank you. That was what I was remembering, but I did not want to post specifics, have them be wrong, and lose the ability to communicate my point in the process.

Ok, so after a quick re-reading of Ender's Game, here's my thoughts.

3) Moreover Alai is clearly a well adjusted individual and he is Ender's right hand man throgh the end of the book.

Reinforcing this idea that Alai is both an exceptional commander and well-adjusted, Ender states that he can trust Alai with half the fleet and vague goals. Alai also shows himself capable of making friends and sustaining relationships. He is after all the bridge between Ender and Bernard, two bitter enemies.

4) I can't speak to that. I think that the cycle of how he is broken down and recovers, how he faces each challenge is interesting.

Agreed.

Sure its light on the actual details and I have trouble believing that a 22nd century space based military would be teaching formation battles in space as an ideal but as a depection of a training program for gifted kids being steered towards the military I think its a rather interesting exercise, but your mileage may vary.

IMO opinion, it doesn't. Formations are the accepted norm for all army commanders, but the military's ideal commander (Ender), sees past it. Ender does not use formations, instead placing importance on tactical flexibility at the toon level, even going so far as to have half-toon divisions. In my understanding of the book, the game was another challenge meant for the chosen commander, and not just the unfair aspect of it. The teachers wanted to find a commander that could think independently and eschew accepted ideas of battle, instead implemently more practical and viable ideas. Ender is the ideal, and he did not use formations. Therefore I would say the military's ideal modus operandi was not formations.

The original Ender's Game short story is much better--by which I mean it's pretty good, if forgettable. What makes it so much better than the novel is that it doesn't try to inflate a simple "gotcha!" plotline into a 300+ page book by way of adding all the crap that people are complaining about in this thread. It's basically a story about a child who thinks he's being trained to command a space fleet but in actuality has genocided an entire alien race. There really doesn't need to be a whole lot of sociological crap thrown in, and it doesn't make the ending any more of a whammy.

Seriously, we're talking about the literary equivalent of a New Outer Limits episode.

Crazedwraith wrote:The Catcher In The Rye By JD Salinger, had to be the worst book I've ever read. It's completely pointless, we follow te protangonist: Holden Caulfield. Who whines. Constantly. We pick up his tale at a random point and we leave it again at a random point none the wiser and considerably more annoyed.

Finally! I thought I was the only one who detests this "great" book and it's whiny main character.

I also never was able to finish The Stranger. Why are novels with these angsty loser protagonists and virtually no plot always hailed as high literature? I'll take Harry Flashman over Holden Caulfield any day of the week.

Akumz Razor wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:The Catcher In The Rye By JD Salinger, had to be the worst book I've ever read. It's completely pointless, we follow te protangonist: Holden Caulfield. Who whines. Constantly. We pick up his tale at a random point and we leave it again at a random point none the wiser and considerably more annoyed.

Finally! I thought I was the only one who detests this "great" book and it's whiny main character.

I also never was able to finish The Stranger. Why are novels with these angsty loser protagonists and virtually no plot always hailed as high literature? I'll take Harry Flashman over Holden Caulfield any day of the week.

TV tropes has the answer:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... rtIsAngsty

I think many 'classic' books suffer for cultural reasons. Shit like Great Gatsby or most of Dickens is glacial anachronistic shit, but in synopsis or broad terms, the narrative IS good, it IS interesting etc. It's just that writing standards/styles have changed so much that to a modern reader they are terrible.

As far as Turtledove goes, I can enjoy his books for the good (Fun-to read about) ideas they have, and am able to get past the crappy repetitive writing, occasional Cut-out characters (Sams Carsten and Yeager anyone?) and lack of an editor with balls to eliminate that to get to the good ideas behind it.

Turtledove may need to improve his writing, but the initial ideas, and effects on a society with changed history are intriguing and fun to read about.

-Space aliens invading on a massive scale DURING World War II; Scientific development and social change: Good

Angst, diplomacy and "Tosev 3 Big uglies" Sam Yeager-sue? Annoying as all hell.

-Timeline 191:

The civil war continued into WWI and II, Custer as a Fossilized idiot with a brilliant fluke, (Tanks) Mormon and Black Socialist rebellions, USA allied with Imperial Germany at odds with the CSA, France and Britain?

Great Ideas.

The Little things:

Featherston's journey to power and motivations-excellent

The Contrast in lives between Chester Martin and Jefferson Pinkard (Both steelworkers, Martin in the North, Pinkard in the South,) as Martin becomes a union organiser and Pinkard a concentration-camp commander-fascinating.

-All the little things-preeminence of football, changed culture, etc-Great.

-poorly written sex scenes, constant reminders that yes, Sam Carsten does have pale skin, and repetitive interludes- Aggravating.

Besides, I think He's getting a bit better-Man With the Iron Heart (Heydrich survives, and Nazi Germany uses modern terror tactics against the occupying Allies) was pretty decent.

In conclusion, My opinion is that he is a good idea man with lousy, spineless editors and a repetitive writing style. I am still able to derive some enjoyment from the ideas.

ANYONE can come up with a good idea; that's not what being an author is about. Being an author is about WRITING, and Turtledove's writing sucks shit, and the only appeal is to alt-history people. This hurts him, since alt-history is almost entirely shit agenda-driven oversimplistic nonsense. Books that have horrible wank, repetition, fumbling attempts and human relationships etc are the product of a bad writer, the end. Declaring he's 'getting better' after, what, thirty fucking years is just inane.

DrMckay wrote:Besides, I think He's getting a bit better-Man With the Iron Heart (Heydrich survives, and Nazi Germany uses modern terror tactics against the occupying Allies) was pretty decent.

Wait, what? That makes no sense at all. There is no way the german population would have supported those things. No way.

How does he explain that?

Thanas wrote:

DrMckay wrote:Besides, I think He's getting a bit better-Man With the Iron Heart (Heydrich survives, and Nazi Germany uses modern terror tactics against the occupying Allies) was pretty decent.

Wait, what? That makes no sense at all. There is no way the german population would have supported those things. No way.

How does he explain that?

A whole lot of SS men stuck in a mountain and most Germans being huge Nazi party supporters. I didn't find that book any better than his older stuff. Turtledove is nothing compared to Stuart.

DrMckay wrote:As far as Turtledove goes, I can enjoy his books for the good (Fun-to read about) ideas they have, and am able to get past the crappy repetitive writing, occasional Cut-out characters (Sams Carsten and Yeager anyone?) and lack of an editor with balls to eliminate that to get to the good ideas behind it.

Turtledove may need to improve his writing, but the initial ideas, and effects on a society with changed history are intriguing and fun to read about.

-Space aliens invading on a massive scale DURING World War II; Scientific development and social change: Good

Angst, diplomacy and "Tosev 3 Big uglies" Sam Yeager-sue? Annoying as all hell.

-Timeline 191:

The civil war continued into WWI and II, Custer as a Fossilized idiot with a brilliant fluke, (Tanks) Mormon and Black Socialist rebellions, USA allied with Imperial Germany at odds with the CSA, France and Britain?

Great Ideas.

The Little things:

Featherston's journey to power and motivations-excellent

The Contrast in lives between Chester Martin and Jefferson Pinkard (Both steelworkers, Martin in the North, Pinkard in the South,) as Martin becomes a union organiser and Pinkard a concentration-camp commander-fascinating.

-All the little things-preeminence of football, changed culture, etc-Great.

-poorly written sex scenes, constant reminders that yes, Sam Carsten does have pale skin, and repetitive interludes- Aggravating.

Besides, I think He's getting a bit better-Man With the Iron Heart (Heydrich survives, and Nazi Germany uses modern terror tactics against the occupying Allies) was pretty decent.

In conclusion, My opinion is that he is a good idea man with lousy, spineless editors and a repetitive writing style. I am still able to derive some enjoyment from the ideas.

The alien invasion thing doesn't work. You have to make them morons NOT to over run Earth in a week.

Likewise for the civil war. There is no way the war could have continued- the South was bleed dry by the short period it was fighting.

It is similar for the doing anything with the Nazis win WW2- it just doesn't work without massively breaking history.

ANYONE can come up with a good idea; that's not what being an author is about. Being an author is about WRITING, and Turtledove's writing sucks shit, and the only appeal is to alt-history people. This hurts him, since alt-history is almost entirely shit agenda-driven oversimplistic nonsense. Books that have horrible wank, repetition, fumbling attempts and human relationships etc are the product of a bad writer, the end. Declaring he's 'getting better' after, what, thirty fucking years is just inane.

Stark is right. I could suggest an improvement to the Chronicles of Narnia that would make it 10 times more awesome. I wouldn't be able to actually write it though.

I never attempted to defend Turtledove's writing talents (or lack therof,) or get other people to spontaneously start liking the books I merely tried to explain why I could find his books enjoyable on some level, even for the sheer absurdity of it (Guns of the South, anyone?)

Similar to this is is my enjoyment of SM Stirling's books, Stock military character/uber southern aristocrat society/weird wiccan prophesy mumbo-jumbo aside, the worlds he draws, Flashman Descendant in a British-Indian Empire Swordfighting on a dirigible, survivors building new social networks after the collapse of technology, etc, are so fascinating.

However, there are several truly irredeemably awful authors (Kevin J. Anderson, I'm looking at you.)

As far as Stuart's work goes, I really enjoyed what I was able to read online, in the TBOverse, and look forward to getting the books at some point.

As far as my tastes run; while I consider Turtledove's and much of Stirling's work enjoyeble pulp, I absolutely prefer the work of authors like George MacDonald Fraser and Aaron Allston.

Samuel wrote:Likewise for the civil war. There is no way the war could have continued- the South was bleed dry by the short period it was fighting.

At least Turtledove does not go as Southern apologist as pre-Civil War propaganda, i.e., portraying the slaves as better off than freemen (specifically, factory workers in the North). And portraying the CSA as a wannabe Nazi Germany is portraying the slavers just the way they were.

It is similar for the doing anything with the Nazis win WW2- it just doesn't work without massively breaking history.

Unfortunately, very few Americans paid attention in their high school history classes, and those classes were broken in the first place (at least, the classes were broken when I was in high school).

I noticed a lot of right-wing nuts, specifically, GOP members, among the bad books' authors. To this, I have to add a left-wing nut who hypocritically acts just like a right-wing nut: David Brin.

There's 'The Life Eaters'. When I took a quick look at the local library's copy, I mistakingly thought Chris Turing (the American soldier to whom Loki granted superpowers, and who defied Odin) and the Norse gods' Emissary (the superpowered double-agent who secretly helps the surviving Allies) were the same person. Then I borrowed the book, and found this wasn't so: the Emissary was a cupbearer of Swedish descent who, as a child, witnessed Turing's defiance, and was inspired to rebel against his masters. Note the Emissary's background: He was not a Jew with the good fortune of being born with blond hair and blue eyes, desiring vengeance against those who sent his not-as-Aryan-looking friends and family to the gas chambers. He was a child of privilege from a nation that was not another one of the Nazis' artillery ranges, and presumably a Nazi ally. For him to turn "traitor" is like an al-Qaida operative's firstborn son deciding, "USA is a great nation! Americans are good people! I should help the CIA and FBI prevent terror attacks, because bin Laden is a villain who kills a lot of people!" after hearing George W. Bush's, "Bring it on!" speech.

Then there's his portrayal of the Abrahamic religions' followers (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) as the "good guys" because they refuse to use necromancy, i.e., commit mass murders to summon a supernatural entity, the process through which the Nazis summoned the Norse gods as allies. What, was he that fucking ignorant of world history? Did he sleep through classes on the Crusades and pogroms? Not read the family Bible, which has multiple scenes where God specifically orders his "Chosen people" to commit genocide against a defeated enemy?

Brin's ham-fisted preaching reminds me of a scene in 'Generation Kill', whose reporter-turned-author saw a Canadian pacifist physically assault an American photographer who made pro-war statements.

I thought Sundiver and Startide Rising were good.

Xess wrote:

Thanas wrote:

DrMckay wrote:Besides, I think He's getting a bit better-Man With the Iron Heart (Heydrich survives, and Nazi Germany uses modern terror tactics against the occupying Allies) was pretty decent.

Wait, what? That makes no sense at all. There is no way the german population would have supported those things. No way.

How does he explain that?

A whole lot of SS men stuck in a mountain and most Germans being huge Nazi party supporters. I didn't find that book any better than his older stuff.

That is criminally ignorant...so the Nazis just sit there in the bunker and for some reasons the starving german population supports those guys who brought war on them in the first place? Especially considering that they depend to a large deal on the goodwill of the allies for food and shelter? But yeah, let's all risk that for the glory of the reich...which consists of a few guys stuck in a mountain. Hilarious. Also, why is the US unable to flush those guys out in the mountains? How do those guys get food? The Alps are not really impossible to control as WWI pointed out.

I suspect Turtledove just wanted to write a "Terrorists against occupiers. Rah" book and picked a subject he knows nothing about but believes the public will buy what he is peddling.

Note the Emissary's background: He was not a Jew with the good fortune of being born with blond hair and blue eyes, desiring vengeance against those who sent his not-as-Aryan-looking friends and family to the gas chambers. He was a child of privilege from a nation that was not another one of the Nazis' artillery ranges, and presumably a Nazi ally.

You know it is possible for people who have been treated well by a regime to turn against it, and you didn't have to be a star-of-David-wearing jew to feel the Nazi regime a bit oppressive, I have no idea how that's supposedly changed when they have gods on their side (Heimdall is supposed to have senses good enough to be a one man police state). Plus people do, just occasionally, develope a conscience about the evils that their own side do even if they're not personally effected.
And of course if he was raised a Lutheran the idea of allying with pagan gods might make him uncomfortable.

I think many 'classic' books suffer for cultural reasons. Shit like Great Gatsby or most of Dickens is glacial anachronistic shit, but in synopsis or broad terms, the narrative IS good, it IS interesting etc. It's just that writing standards/styles have changed so much that to a modern reader they are terrible.

That is why I hate mandatory reading. You can't seriously expect an average kid to understand the subtleties and whatnot of the work in question.

Give an average person any work of the great Greek poets, even in perfect English translation, and they will get bored because they don't understand it or find it talking about things that they don't care about (unless they are pretentious or because you accidentally picked someone who actually understands the period and writing of the tiem). After all, its hard for a modern person to view the Greeks attacking Troy as heroes, because they are essentially pirates trying to loot a city.

Today's definition of hero is radically different than what it was in ancient Greece. In ancient Greece, the polis's men returning from a successful raids were heroes because they brought slaves and riches for their family, that eventually got around. Back in the day, raids were common and most capable men joined, bringing riches to the family. Today's definition of a hero is that of someone who sacrifices much of himself in one way or another to the benefit of society. Slavery is illegal and unethical in today's view and looting is considered criminal.

So, why should we cheer the men that are essentially looting a city? Because of some weak, feeble excuse about the idiocy of their gods and some woman that in no way would justify the acts involved for a modern reader.

Some works walk away enough from their time period to be understandable today, but very few of them are treated the marvels of literature.

What's worse, is the language. I'd take a revised edition of Shakespear anytime over the original. Sure, the original may have more brilliance and whatnot, but it doesn't matter how good the artistic massage is if they use language, expressions or symbols that make no sense today. Having less but clearer artistic message is better that having more but obscure.