Police Thugs Storm Homes In Minn.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Based on the info we have, there is a good chance that it actually does not. Axes, slingshots, other edged weapons. I own all of those things, a good number of my friends own firearms and full suits of armor. We all have laptops, cell phones etc. Several of my friends like to create armored suits and go at each other with home-made low-explosives (Captain Cyran I am looking at you) and build siege equpment

What info? Oh you mean the articles which only tell one side of the story? Right. I'll wait until the police release their official report.

and I am not as willing as you are to brush aside the very real possibility that the buckets of urine were indeed seized from the very areas where you would expect them to be useful. An attic room apartment, or a left-wing hippy doing water conservation. It is just as reasonable as medium term urine storage for use as a weapon at the very least

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. You brush aside statements made by the police, but embrace those made by the media and those who were raided. I'd like to know why? Do you know these people personally?

Again, if they had reliable information from an informant or another reliable source which said the buckets of urine were going to be used in an illegal manner then it doesn't really matter where they were seized. I wouldn't expect protestors with criminal intent to store buckets of urine in their bedroom, and sleep with it.

Anyway, you and others aren't understanding that it doesn't matter what items were seized. It's the information that the police obtained which indicates what they were going to do with it, and if other items in that information were also present. That information has not been revealed in any article, so far but in a brief summary in the opening article.

[Dark Hellion]

Ok Kamikaze, because this repeatedly happens in every "Police do xxxxx" thread, and it gets annoying to read the same basic thread multiple times per month, lets hash this out.

OP posts story, usually with comment to effect of "man those cops are dicks".

Next, we get the initial round of follow ups, usually a couple people to the left going overboard, calling the police names and suggesting some conspiracy. We get others who want to know the specifics.

Now, those who side with the police repeatedly (such as yourself) decide that despite whatever problems you have with the police's behavior (you have admitted yourself, in this thread you find the warrants a bit dubious) that you must defend the police against the rampaging liberals.

Now, instead of actual non-biased treatment of the polices actions, we have two sides who bicker about asinine bullshit and accomplish nothing. Wheee!

Now, I asked a number of rhetorical questions. I didn't put in specifics, they where general questions within the thread about why some people defend the police up til the point of gross negligence, when the police are supposed to represent a higher professional conduct.

You failed to address that primary point at all. If the police are supposed to represent this authority figure who are as trustworthy as you attempt to portray them, then you would be expressing actual dismay at dubious activities, because such activities are unprofessional.

These threads are annoying because if one favors authoritarian action limited repercussions, you aren't going to state it on this board (because you'll get eaten alive) but when you defend the police knee jerk style it is hard not to read this as your position. The knee jerk is annoying, because you can easily rebut whatever stupid leftist shit that one of the resident leftist shit spewers puts out, but you do so in a fashion that paints you as some fascist dick, instead of someone who is simply applying rational skepticism.

And yes, left-wingers, this is your mess two. Kamikaze isn't the only one to express a biased position, and his is probably even less biased (although probably less ethical as well) so even though its easy to tear at his arguments, you look bad too. The police aren't a totality of oppressive thugs as the attempt to portray them that often sneaks by would suggest. When blatant abuse is evident, the only reason to grasp at straws is frothing at the mouth bias, and it looks just as bad on you as it does on the home-team fans.

I don't mean this as back-seat modding, but to try to start some honest discussion, because every thread of this archetype quickly devolves into a total shitter thread, and both parties are at fault, and perhaps if we actually stopped to have a real discussion instead of pandering points out of every repetition of this, we could spruce up N&P a bit on our own. Cleaning up shit like this is our responsibility too, and these thread archetype is ripe for it.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Ok Kamikaze, because this repeatedly happens in every "Police do xxxxx" thread, and it gets annoying to read the same basic thread multiple times per month, lets hash this out.

OP posts story, usually with comment to effect of "man those cops are dicks".

Next, we get the initial round of follow ups, usually a couple people to the left going overboard, calling the police names and suggesting some conspiracy. We get others who want to know the specifics.

Now, those who side with the police repeatedly (such as yourself) decide that despite whatever problems you have with the police's behavior (you have admitted yourself, in this thread you find the warrants a bit dubious) that you must defend the police against the rampaging liberals.

Now, instead of actual non-biased treatment of the polices actions, we have two sides who bicker about asinine bullshit and accomplish nothing. Wheee!

Now, I asked a number of rhetorical questions. I didn't put in specifics, they where general questions within the thread about why some people defend the police up til the point of gross negligence, when the police are supposed to represent a higher professional conduct.

You failed to address that primary point at all. If the police are supposed to represent this authority figure who are as trustworthy as you attempt to portray them, then you would be expressing actual dismay at dubious activities, because such activities are unprofessional.

These threads are annoying because if one favors authoritarian action limited repercussions, you aren't going to state it on this board (because you'll get eaten alive) but when you defend the police knee jerk style it is hard not to read this as your position. The knee jerk is annoying, because you can easily rebut whatever stupid leftist shit that one of the resident leftist shit spewers puts out, but you do so in a fashion that paints you as some fascist dick, instead of someone who is simply applying rational skepticism.

And yes, left-wingers, this is your mess two. Kamikaze isn't the only one to express a biased position, and his is probably even less biased (although probably less ethical as well) so even though its easy to tear at his arguments, you look bad too. The police aren't a totality of oppressive thugs as the attempt to portray them that often sneaks by would suggest. When blatant abuse is evident, the only reason to grasp at straws is frothing at the mouth bias, and it looks just as bad on you as it does on the home-team fans.

I don't mean this as back-seat modding, but to try to start some honest discussion, because every thread of this archetype quickly devolves into a total shitter thread, and both parties are at fault, and perhaps if we actually stopped to have a real discussion instead of pandering points out of every repetition of this, we could spruce up N&P a bit on our own. Cleaning up shit like this is our responsibility too, and these thread archetype is ripe for it.

You are... right.

Alright Sith. Does one of us want to put together a summary of what information we have so far? I can do it tomorrow, but I need to get some sleep (I didnt last night...) but if you are up longer you can.

Then we can look at what we have, see what we can definitely conclude (get a bit of background info on the groups involved, see if they are likely to support violence, etc) and then we can see what information we need to reach a general conclusion.

I am rather biased against trusting authority figures, especially insular groups of authority figures, so just getting that out. And I do have a bit of a reactionary/extremist streak in my personality that sometimes I need a gentle reminder of (thanks Helion)

[Kamakazie Sith]

Ok Kamikaze, because this repeatedly happens in every "Police do xxxxx" thread, and it gets annoying to read the same basic thread multiple times per month, lets hash this out.

OP posts story, usually with comment to effect of "man those cops are dicks".

Next, we get the initial round of follow ups, usually a couple people to the left going overboard, calling the police names and suggesting some conspiracy. We get others who want to know the specifics.

Now, those who side with the police repeatedly (such as yourself) decide that despite whatever problems you have with the police's behavior (you have admitted yourself, in this thread you find the warrants a bit dubious) that you must defend the police against the rampaging liberals.

Now, instead of actual non-biased treatment of the polices actions, we have two sides who bicker about asinine bullshit and accomplish nothing. Wheee!

Now, I asked a number of rhetorical questions. I didn't put in specifics, they where general questions within the thread about why some people defend the police up til the point of gross negligence, when the police are supposed to represent a higher professional conduct.

You failed to address that primary point at all. If the police are supposed to represent this authority figure who are as trustworthy as you attempt to portray them, then you would be expressing actual dismay at dubious activities, because such activities are unprofessional.

These threads are annoying because if one favors authoritarian action limited repercussions, you aren't going to state it on this board (because you'll get eaten alive) but when you defend the police knee jerk style it is hard not to read this as your position. The knee jerk is annoying, because you can easily rebut whatever stupid leftist shit that one of the resident leftist shit spewers puts out, but you do so in a fashion that paints you as some fascist dick, instead of someone who is simply applying rational skepticism.

And yes, left-wingers, this is your mess two. Kamikaze isn't the only one to express a biased position, and his is probably even less biased (although probably less ethical as well) so even though its easy to tear at his arguments, you look bad too. The police aren't a totality of oppressive thugs as the attempt to portray them that often sneaks by would suggest. When blatant abuse is evident, the only reason to grasp at straws is frothing at the mouth bias, and it looks just as bad on you as it does on the home-team fans.

I don't mean this as back-seat modding, but to try to start some honest discussion, because every thread of this archetype quickly devolves into a total shitter thread, and both parties are at fault, and perhaps if we actually stopped to have a real discussion instead of pandering points out of every repetition of this, we could spruce up N&P a bit on our own. Cleaning up shit like this is our responsibility too, and these thread archetype is ripe for it.

I typed out a long reply, but I realized that it was just a nitpick. This is a good idea, so we'll reboot this thread.

[Kamakazie Sith]

You are... right.

Alright Sith. Does one of us want to put together a summary of what information we have so far? I can do it tomorrow, but I need to get some sleep (I didnt last night...) but if you are up longer you can.

Then we can look at what we have, see what we can definitely conclude (get a bit of background info on the groups involved, see if they are likely to support violence, etc) and then we can see what information we need to reach a general conclusion.

Sounds like a good idea.

Let's start with this..

Welcome RNC

I am rather biased against trusting authority figures, especially insular groups of authority figures, so just getting that out. And I do have a bit of a reactionary/extremist streak in my personality that sometimes I need a gentle reminder of (thanks Helion)

Well, I am a police officer so I'm not close to being bias free.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Sounds like a good idea.

Let's start with this..

Welcome RNC

Ok, these people are nuts. Not violent, but certainly nuts and not operating in anything resembling a legal capacity.

And if they posted this shit on their website, the intel was... certainly legit and if what they find is indicative of them being bent on doing thing more illegal than protesting without permits, then they had every reason to treat members of this particular group the way they did.

Now that doesnt necessarily mean that what they collected means anything. Or at least some of the stuff. The caltrops for example, kinda depends on what type of caltrops. If they are Bond-Car caltrops, OK. Arrest them. If they are cast-iron replicas of medieval or roman caltrops in a display case... not so much

[Kamakazie Sith]

Ok, these people are nuts. Not violent, but certainly nuts and not operating in anything resembling a legal capacity.

And if they posted this shit on their website, the intel was... certainly legit and if what they find is indicative of them being bent on doing thing more illegal than protesting without permits, then they had every reason to treat members of this particular group the way they did.

Now that doesnt necessarily mean that what they collected means anything. Or at least some of the stuff. The caltrops for example, kinda depends on what type of caltrops. If they are Bond-Car caltrops, OK. Arrest them. If they are cast-iron replicas of medieval or roman caltrops in a display case... not so much

Agreed. Though I was looking at some other videos posted here, and in one they were reading off the list of items OKed to be seized and it seems like it was a catch all list(everything from firearms to these items), and that bugs me because it is lazy and doesn't reflect the information found on their webpage.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Ok, these people are nuts. Not violent, but certainly nuts and not operating in anything resembling a legal capacity.

And if they posted this shit on their website, the intel was... certainly legit and if what they find is indicative of them being bent on doing thing more illegal than protesting without permits, then they had every reason to treat members of this particular group the way they did.

Now that doesnt necessarily mean that what they collected means anything. Or at least some of the stuff. The caltrops for example, kinda depends on what type of caltrops. If they are Bond-Car caltrops, OK. Arrest them. If they are cast-iron replicas of medieval or roman caltrops in a display case... not so much

Agreed. Though I was looking at some other videos posted here, and in one they were reading off the list of items OKed to be seized and it seems like it was a catch all list(everything from firearms to these items), and that bugs me because it is lazy and doesn't reflect the information found on their webpage.

Might they be capitalizing on something legit in order to play up the Evil Hippy angle to the press?

I mean... why fabricate something completely when half truths are easier?

[Kamakazie Sith]

Might they be capitalizing on something legit in order to play up the Evil Hippy angle to the press?

I mean... why fabricate something completely when half truths are easier?

I don't know if it's an attempt to play up the evil hippy angle, or just an attempt to make sure they completely disrupt any operations this group is trying to run. Could be either or...

[SirNitram]

While I don't have much of an opinion on this, due to lack of information I don't think is somewhat tilted one way or another, I will limit my contributions to this interesting tidbit.

Link

ST. PAUL, Minn. - Taxpayers should be off the hook for any damages stemming from claims of police misconduct related to the Republican National Convention under a first-of-its-kind agreement.

The deal required the Republican Party's host committee to buy insurance covering up to $10 million in damages and unlimited legal costs for law enforcement officials accused of brutality, violating civil rights and other misconduct.

Other cities who hosted conventions in recent years — including Denver, Boston, New York and Philadelphia — either covered those costs from their general budgets or used tax money to buy insurance policies.

But St. Paul officials, led by Mayor Chris Coleman, insisted the committee use its private donations to purchase the insurance policy. They had some leverage because the party had named St. Paul as the location for the convention before striking the city services agreement in January 2007.

"The negotiating team, with the mayor's encouragement, took the firm ground that we had to have the police professional liability insurance paid for by someone other than city taxpayers," said City Attorney John Choi. "Ultimately, and reluctantly on the host committee's part, we were able to secure that."

The deal could save taxpayers millions. Police have arrested nearly 300 people, and many protesters are threatening lawsuits. New York City still faces more than 400 lawsuits from some of the 1,800 people arrested at the 2004 GOP convention, said Laura Postiglione, a spokeswoman in the city's law department.

In St. Paul, some critics say the agreement has only encouraged police to use aggressive tactics knowing they won't have to pay damages.

"It's an extraordinary agreement. Now the police have nothing to hold them back from egregious behavior," said Michelle Gross, who leads Communities United Against Police Brutality. She is considering filing suit after being handcuffed and searched last week during a raid of the St. Paul hub of an anarchist group.

I'm wondering a few things. One, how much is the deterrent to misuse of power, if you remove the costs of lawsuits? Second, this is called a 'First Of A Kind Agreement'; how accurate is this? First for a political convention, first ever, or 'Palin is the first women VP candidate, ignore the Democrats history' level of first ever?

[Pablo Sanchez]

That is truly extraordinary and it amounts to a tacit agreement between the RNC and city government to engage in illegal harassment. In order for there to be settlements of this kind, especially in such an amount, against the Twin Cities police, their behavior would of necessity have to be improper. If their actions were legitimate then there would be minimal settlements to pay for.

Of course, it's likely that the city demanded it, rather than the GOP offering it as an incentive to unethical police practices. St. Paul knew that the political environment around the RNC was even more toxic than 2004, and they wanted to protect themselves financially, especially because the Twin Cities area consists of many independently organized cites which individually are much less capable of absorbing large settlements than NYC.

But yeah, I'm sure this has encouraged them to be even more aggressive.

[Kamakazie Sith]

While I don't have much of an opinion on this, due to lack of information I don't think is somewhat tilted one way or another, I will limit my contributions to this interesting tidbit.

Link

ST. PAUL, Minn. - Taxpayers should be off the hook for any damages stemming from claims of police misconduct related to the Republican National Convention under a first-of-its-kind agreement.

The deal required the Republican Party's host committee to buy insurance covering up to $10 million in damages and unlimited legal costs for law enforcement officials accused of brutality, violating civil rights and other misconduct.

Other cities who hosted conventions in recent years — including Denver, Boston, New York and Philadelphia — either covered those costs from their general budgets or used tax money to buy insurance policies.

But St. Paul officials, led by Mayor Chris Coleman, insisted the committee use its private donations to purchase the insurance policy. They had some leverage because the party had named St. Paul as the location for the convention before striking the city services agreement in January 2007.

"The negotiating team, with the mayor's encouragement, took the firm ground that we had to have the police professional liability insurance paid for by someone other than city taxpayers," said City Attorney John Choi. "Ultimately, and reluctantly on the host committee's part, we were able to secure that."

The deal could save taxpayers millions. Police have arrested nearly 300 people, and many protesters are threatening lawsuits. New York City still faces more than 400 lawsuits from some of the 1,800 people arrested at the 2004 GOP convention, said Laura Postiglione, a spokeswoman in the city's law department.

In St. Paul, some critics say the agreement has only encouraged police to use aggressive tactics knowing they won't have to pay damages.

"It's an extraordinary agreement. Now the police have nothing to hold them back from egregious behavior," said Michelle Gross, who leads Communities United Against Police Brutality. She is considering filing suit after being handcuffed and searched last week during a raid of the St. Paul hub of an anarchist group.

I'm wondering a few things. One, how much is the deterrent to misuse of power, if you remove the costs of lawsuits? Second, this is called a 'First Of A Kind Agreement'; how accurate is this? First for a political convention, first ever, or 'Palin is the first women VP candidate, ignore the Democrats history' level of first ever?

That is just insane. I wonder what would happen when people start filing charges against the police for assault, unlawful detention, etc with the city prosecutor?