Judge complaining about not getting a raise.

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The Kernel
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Post by The Kernel »

Darth Wong wrote:Burden of proof falls upon the person who says something is happening. If they are indeed unable to get and keep qualified people, then by all means, increase salary. I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is the idea that the supply/demand curve can be used as a theoretical justification for jacking up salaries and benefits even if this is not happening.
I said that as a general rule if you don't keep salaries competitive then you will lose the most talented people. I don't think you disagree with that in the private sector, you just pointed out that in the public sector people don't flock away from their jobs if they don't get raises. I don't know of any data to support that or see any reason why it would be different for public employees.
That's what we see with CEOs, and is one of the reasons that CEO compensation has ballooned out of control in the last 20 years with no corresponding increase in apparent CEO effectiveness.
It's funny but I've never worked in a company with an overpaid CEO, mostly because most of the companies I've worked in, the CEO has been the founder. When you are running a company in order to increase the value of your investment, there is actually a big incentive to keep your salary down (case in point: my current CEO is the lowest paid member of the executive team).
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Post by The Kernel »

brianeyci wrote:Heh heh heh what a joke The Kernel.

Earlier in the post Glocksman posted a lawyer leaving a top law firm (probably paying millions in stock options and benefits given the amounts people are throwing around here 200k after a couple years) for a position as a DC judge. So it looks like you're trying to fabricate something that doesn't exist. Power means just as much as money to some highly qualified people, or why did a woman at head of a multi-billion dollar company leave for a shot at Prime Minister in Canada. If power makes up for money, why give extra money when we don't have to. No lack of qualified applicants, then this whole line of reasoning is crap.
Oh gee, a single example! That must mean that you can keep judgeships filled with well qualified applicants at salaries far below the market rate!
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Post by Darth Wong »

The Kernel wrote:It's funny but I've never worked in a company with an overpaid CEO, mostly because most of the companies I've worked in, the CEO has been the founder. When you are running a company in order to increase the value of your investment, there is actually a big incentive to keep your salary down (case in point: my current CEO is the lowest paid member of the executive team).
You can only appeal to your personal situation so much. The fact is that CEO compensation has exploded in general over the last few decades, and in most decent-sized companies, the CEO is not the founder. And it's a real problem, because the ratio of earnings between the CEO and the next highest-ranking executive is often as much as 10x, which is an outlandishly large ratio.
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Post by The Kernel »

Darth Wong wrote:
The Kernel wrote:It's funny but I've never worked in a company with an overpaid CEO, mostly because most of the companies I've worked in, the CEO has been the founder. When you are running a company in order to increase the value of your investment, there is actually a big incentive to keep your salary down (case in point: my current CEO is the lowest paid member of the executive team).
You can only appeal to your personal situation so much. The fact is that CEO compensation has exploded in general over the last few decades, and in most decent-sized companies, the CEO is not the founder. And it's a real problem, because the ratio of earnings between the CEO and the next highest-ranking executive is often as much as 10x, which is an outlandishly large ratio.
Agreed, I was just pointing this out to show that being a CEO doesn't automatically mean you are overpaid.

It's actually the so called "profitability CEOs" that are the vastly overpaid ones, not the "growth/startup CEOs". Although I'm not sure why, it's apparently really hard to find a CEO that can maximize profit in a company rather than innovate and expand a company.
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Post by Darth Wong »

One interesting thing I saw pointed out by an executive once is that when the ratio of earnings between one tier of the executive suite and another tier is too large, then political intrigue and backstabbing becomes far more intense. The competition to get to the next tier becomes utterly ruthless, which hurts the company in many ways.
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Post by brianeyci »

The Kernel wrote:Oh gee, a single example! That must mean that you can keep judgeships filled with well qualified applicants at salaries far below the market rate!
What market rate asshole. Is there a private sector system of justice which I am not aware of, which gives people the prestige and power of being a judge.

My one example is more than you have, nothing. You got an example of a judge position which cannot be filled by a qualified applicant because the money is too low? Then your idea goes down the shitter friend, have a nice day.
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Post by The Kernel »

Which is precisely why it is stupid to base salary tiers purely on title. Salary should be based on the amount of responsibility you have at the executive level, not the title itself.
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Post by The Kernel »

brianeyci wrote: What market rate asshole. Is there a private sector system of justice which I am not aware of, which gives people the prestige and power of being a judge.
And what price tag would you put on having the power hmmm? This looks like a classic "no limits" fallacy. If you are right about this than you can just pay the judges $30k a year and expect qualified applicants. Of course you won't get them because your entire line of reasoning is bullshit.
My one example is more than you have, nothing. You got an example of a judge position which cannot be filled by a qualified applicant because the money is too low? Then your idea goes down the shitter friend, have a nice day.
One person is not a statistically useful sample size no matter how much you might want it to be. DEAL WITH IT.

And believe it or not, you will get lower quality applicants the lower you keep salaries. This is as indisputable as the law of gravity; your ignorance of capitalism is not my problem.
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Post by The Kernel »

I'd just like to point out that by brianeyci's logic, the military pays their soldiers plenty to attract talented people because Pat Tillman walked away from a multi-million dollar NFL contract to enlist. After all, you can't put a price on patriotism!
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Post by brianeyci »

You make the claim, you provide the evidence asshole. The one counterexample is enough to show that there is possibility you're wrong, and that's all I have to show given you made the claim. Did that change around here? If you say that low salaries are a problem for judges, then there has to be evidence. Cost of living or inflation are not evidence, nor has anything posted in this thread or the newspaper article. Deal with it.

If I'm right, keep judge salaries the same, until a problem emerges. Or do you not understand don't fix what's not broken.
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Post by brianeyci »

The Kernel wrote:I'd just like to point out that by brianeyci's logic, the military pays their soldiers plenty to attract talented people because Pat Tillman walked away from a multi-million dollar NFL contract to enlist. After all, you can't put a price on patriotism!
You are one big fucking ass. I didn't say lower their salaries to 30k, nor did I say that money doesn't matter in attracting qualified applicants. I said that money was not the only factor, and that power and prestige can make up for money and there's no reason to assume it doesn't given we have examples of people giving up money for power. I did not say, money didn't matter at all.

The price on power right now for a judge: 135k. If you say there's something wrong with that, you give the evidence dingbat. Your attempt to strawman me was pathetic.
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Post by The Kernel »

brianeyci wrote:You make the claim, you provide the evidence asshole.
The evidence is in every HR textbook on the market. Try opening a fucking book sometime.
The one counterexample is enough to show that there is possibility you're wrong, and that's all I have to show given you made the claim. Did that change around here? If you say that low salaries are a problem for judges, then there has to be evidence. Cost of living or inflation are not evidence, nor has anything posted in this thread or the newspaper article. Deal with it.
Once again, since you didn't get it the first time:

ONE EXAMPLE IS NOT STATISTICALLY USEFUL IN THE SLIGHTEST! It doesn't matter what counter-evidence I provide, a single example is NEVER a useful statistic.
If I'm right, keep judge salaries the same, until a problem emerges. Or do you not understand don't fix what's not broken.
You apparently think this is a black/white issue which it's not. It's not just a question of whether or not you have people to fill the positions. I'm sure Jimmy Joe Bob with his law degree from Bob Jones University would be glad to be a judge for $30k a year, but that doesn't mean you keep an acceptable standard of quality for your hires.

Jesus, how fucking hard is this for you to understand? District court is not McDonalds, not all employees are created equal.
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Post by The Kernel »

brianeyci wrote: You are one big fucking ass. I didn't say lower their salaries to 30k, nor did I say that money doesn't matter in attracting qualified applicants. I said that money was not the only factor, and that power and prestige can make up for money and there's no reason to assume it doesn't given we have examples of people giving up money for power. I did not say, money didn't matter at all.

The price on power right now for a judge: 135k. If you say there's something wrong with that, you give the evidence dingbat. Your attempt to strawman me was pathetic.
The evidence is right in the OP you fucking idiot. If you have disgruntled employees, then you are going to have a recruiting problem.
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Post by brianeyci »

The Kernel wrote:The evidence is in every HR textbook on the market. Try opening a fucking book sometime.
I am perfectly willing to be educated and accept evidence which says that raising the salaries of public sector employees to match inflation is necessary to retain qualified applicants. Have you posted such evidence? Of course not. Maybe there's a textbook out there that says, rubbing your ass gives me rabies.
Once again, since you didn't get it the first time:

ONE EXAMPLE IS NOT STATISTICALLY USEFUL IN THE SLIGHTEST! It doesn't matter what counter-evidence I provide, a single example is NEVER a useful statistic.
You are one fucking dumb shit. Do you have any mathematical training at all? A counter example is a way of showing that a condition, higher pay for better employees, is not a sufficient condition, and therefore you must provide more evidence. That is what the counter example means, not that it is statistically significant. In other words, put your money where your mouth is and show me this manpower and skilled applicant shortage for judges.

This is also pretty hilarious coming from you asshole, when you brought up your personal experiences regarding your work in different places. Pot calling kettle black anybody.
You apparently think this is a black/white issue which it's not. It's not just a question of whether or not you have people to fill the positions. I'm sure Jimmy Joe Bob with his law degree from Bob Jones University would be glad to be a judge for $30k a year, but that doesn't mean you keep an acceptable standard of quality for your hires.

Jesus, how fucking hard is this for you to understand? District court is not McDonalds, not all employees are created equal.
You apparently do not know that there are hundreds of thousands of tenured professors in universities with outstanding academic qualifications who would be willing to become judges at the salary of 135k. You say that's not enough, you give the evidence. You have a problem with that my friend.
The evidence is right in the OP you fucking idiot. If you have disgruntled employees, then you are going to have a recruiting problem.
By this evidence, we should cede to teacher's unions all demands because they get disgruntled, and there are recruiting problems for teaching. You are one big asshole, dropping in on a thread late with some persecution complex (we didn't get education to be sneered at by the likes of you har har!) who doesn't see the bigger picture. Grow a brain.
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Post by brianeyci »

Actually you know what, this is bullshit. I'm now entangled in a debate with General Zod and The Kernel over something which I don't particularly give a fuck about, other than my own ego. The newspaper article is lean as fuck, doesn't give specifics, and I'd have to go into research in the judicial system to really prove my point. I've already withdrawn from two debates I really wanted to finish due to lack of time, and this one I don't give a fuck about so I'm conceding this one. I'm really only parroting the views of some other people anyway -- DW, aerius, others have said from the lean evidence in the newspaper article judges are whining, so I'm not going to keep repeating that.
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Post by The Kernel »

brianeyci wrote: I am perfectly willing to be educated and accept evidence which says that raising the salaries of public sector employees to match inflation is necessary to retain qualified applicants. Have you posted such evidence? Of course not. Maybe there's a textbook out there that says, rubbing your ass gives me rabies.
Not just keeping pace with inflation but to offer competitive salaries in general. But since you apparently need education on this subject, fine I'll enlighten you:

Image

This is what's known as a Bell Curve in case you are a moron. The point you see in the center is the average salary paid for a given position (50th percentile) while you see sharp drop offs below and above this line. This one is generic, but one only needs to visit salary.com to get one specific to a given industry/position (I can't hotlink specific graphs and I don't have a space to upload them currently).

You know why less people are employed at the lower rate on that curve? Because the number of people willing to work for that salary drops sharply. Worse yet, if you plug in specifics about your education and work experience the bell curve shifts to the left, which proves EXACTLY what I was saying about qualified people being unwilling to work for lower salaries.

Go on, have fun plugging in statistics and seeing what happens. You will ALWAYS find the averages drifting upwards the more qualifications you plug in, which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that more qualified people are harder to hire at lower salary. So sorry, but you've just lost the entire argument. Next time try to pick a position that is not so thoroughly laughable.
You are one fucking dumb shit. Do you have any mathematical training at all? A counter example is a way of showing that a condition, higher pay for better employees, is not a sufficient condition, and therefore you must provide more evidence. That is what the counter example means, not that it is statistically significant. In other words, put your money where your mouth is and show me this manpower and skilled applicant shortage for judges.
Once again, one example is not statistically useful. How many times before this sinks in moron?
This is also pretty hilarious coming from you asshole, when you brought up your personal experiences regarding your work in different places. Pot calling kettle black anybody.
Yeah I did, and I didn't use them to conclusively make broad statements about ANYTHING (and I certainly didn't try to use them as a statistic), I used them as a point of reference. Furthermore, my personal experiences are far more widespread than a single datapoint as they include my experience with the thousands of people I've worked with and for over the years.
You apparently do not know that there are hundreds of thousands of tenured professors in universities with outstanding academic qualifications who would be willing to become judges at the salary of 135k. You say that's not enough, you give the evidence. You have a problem with that my friend.
:lol:

You think that all it takes to be a judge is academic qualifications? You're dumber than I thought.
By this evidence, we should cede to teacher's unions all demands because they get disgruntled, and there are recruiting problems for teaching. You are one big asshole, dropping in on a thread late with some persecution complex (we didn't get education to be sneered at by the likes of you har har!) who doesn't see the bigger picture. Grow a brain.
I knew strongly unionized industries would come up from you (being a dishonest shitstain and all who purposefully lets the point sail over your tiny little brain), and guess what? It doesn't fucking help your case. In a vacuum an auto worker might be a semi-skilled position that doesn't deserve the salaries of the UAW, but because the UAW exists, the union and labor contracts factor heavily into market salaries for these positions.

It's just like any other requirement for a job, it's a market force which has to be taken into account when assessing salary. The fact that it is artificial and unhealthy for many reasons does not change this ONE IOTA.
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Post by Lonestar »

Darth Wong wrote:That's the key point, really: if public-sector jobs are so underpaid, why are we always hearing public servants threatening to leave for the private sector rather than actually doing so?
Off topic(and personal story, so not really a debating tool) But my mother did just that. :P
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