Plants vs. Jedi (Trigun spoilers)

[The Yosemite Bear]

Plants (Nanotech Andriods with some mystic powers like Vash and Knives)

vs.

Jedi

equal numbers.

[Shinova]

Plants (Nanotech Andriods with some mystic powers like Vash and Knives)

Nanotech androids???


Well, if you mean basically lots of people like Vash and Knives, not sure. What are they armed with?

[The Yosemite Bear]

Ok, the big power plants that provide power and proform the terraforming are Plants. In the last part of the series it is revealed that Knives and Vash are Terraforming Powerplants! Vash can't remember much of what he can do. Knives on the otherhand can consume people in blackness, repair himself, and crafted the angel arm weapons. (Which requires them to re-arrange their bodies in order to use.)

[Shinova]

Ok, the big power plants that provide power and proform the terraforming are Plants. In the last part of the series it is revealed that Knives and Vash are Terraforming Powerplants! Vash can't remember much of what he can do. Knives on the otherhand can consume people in blackness, repair himself, and crafted the angel arm weapons. (Which requires them to re-arrange their bodies in order to use.)

Well, I know what they are (I disagree with the consume people in blackness part, in that it's probably from one of those plant bulbs nearby at that scene but anyway), but I'm asking what are they armed with in this particular instant?


(And somehow I doubt they're androids---they seem very much biological, albeit really really strong and fast)

[The Yosemite Bear]

Andriods refers to most any form of artificial life.

They were found inside the seed ship, by Knive's own statement they are both plants. Knives can apparently repair himself, Vash can not. They have evedenced a molecular control ability in order to re-arrange their bodies to perform the "Angel Arm" stunt, in the very least. Also the Commune with tech ability demonstrated in several episodes. At the core of one of the Plant bulbs was shown to be a woman just before the bulb was destroyed by one of the gung ho guns.

Thus while they appear to be biological, thus like Friday, Nexus andriods & Naomi Armitage's daughter, they technically qualify as andriods. They have to be a product of some nanotech, because they were fabricated by machines to replicate a biological function. (Their cells replenish/rearrange themselves)

Actuall since I don't want to go Lightsaber vs. Angel Arms, this is an unarmed battle.

[Singular Quartet]

Andriods refers to most any form of artificial life.

Andriod, by definition, means a robot desgined to mimic a human's appearance (Data) Vash and Knives are just gen-modded humans.

They were found inside the seed ship, by Knive's own statement they are both plants. Knives can apparently repair himself, Vash can not. They have evedenced a molecular control ability in order to re-arrange their bodies to perform the "Angel Arm" stunt, in the very least. Also the Commune with tech ability demonstrated in several episodes. At the core of one of the Plant bulbs was shown to be a woman just before the bulb was destroyed by one of the gung ho guns.

Actually, Plants are, as stated in the anime (towards the end, when Wolfwood and Vash are on the ship) to be others like Vash and Knives in some sort of temperol stasis, and that they produce energy as such. Vash can't repair himself because he sems to subconciously refuse to let himself. The Angel arm stunt... *shrugg* The commune with Tech abilty, however, seemed more like Vash just talking to the Plants inside their bubbles, just like he did with Legato in a couple of eps.

Actuall since I don't want to go Lightsaber vs. Angel Arms, this is an unarmed battle.

Jedi are never without their lightsaber.

[Connor MacLeod]

Last time I recalled this, the idea was that Angel Arms can produce kiloton-range yields IIRC at the upper limit. It takes time to deploy them, however. (Unless they have some sort of telekinesis, the recoil issue will probably dictate an even lower yield, however.)

However, the problem is I dont recall ever seeing an indication of what is required to "kill" a plant (unless we use Knives as an example) which renders the debate difficult.

Additionally, what kind of Jedi are we talking about? Knight? Master? Padawan? "canon" set of abilities, or someone unusual like Corran Horn, etc.

[The Dark]

Andriods refers to most any form of artificial life.

Andriod, by definition, means a robot desgined to mimic a human's appearance (Data) Vash and Knives are just gen-modded humans.

Actually, the American Heritage Dictionary defines android as "an automaton that is created from biological materials[/i] and resembles a human" (emphasis added).

Although Webster's defines it as either a machine or automaton (does not specify biological or not) in human shape. It comes from the Greek Andros (man) and Eidos (form), so its literal meaning is "form of man."

[Shinova]

Anyway, if its totally unarmed combat, then it could go either way.

Jedi have precog and Force speed. Plants have sheer speed, reflexes, and power. Though I'm more inclined to say that with some of the examples of speed demonstrated on Trigun, the Plants might have an edge.

[Shroom Man 777]

What about force push and force choke?

[Shinova]

What about force push and force choke?

Force Choke: I think this'll depend on how much a Plant can take and whether the Plant can still rush the Jedi while being choked.

Force Push: It'll work. But all you do is push them back. Nothing'll change unless you follow-up with something.

[Darth Fanboy]

What about force push and force choke?

Force Choke: I think this'll depend on how much a Plant can take and whether the Plant can still rush the Jedi while being choked.

Force Push: It'll work. But all you do is push them back. Nothing'll change unless you follow-up with something.

Legato showed that mind control powers work against them. I would use a mind trick to make one of them put a gun to his head.

If that didn't work then I woulfd use the force push, one of those force pushes done right could really fuck up a plant. using the force to propel sharp obejcts, Sand, Broken Glass, would also work against them.

[Icehawk]

I was under the impression that Vash and Knives are members of the uber angel race which seem to reside inside the Powerplants. The powerplants are just like any other man made object but the weird beings inside which seem to power them are the real mystery that is never explained.

After I finished the series it seemed obvious to me that Vash and Knives are heavily linked to those beings and that they are very likely members of their kind that somehow got separated.

[Shinova]

Legato showed that mind control powers work against them. I would use a mind trick to make one of them put a gun to his head.

There is more evidence that Legato's powers are telekinetic in nature, rather than telepathic. Also keep in mind that Plants have some telepathic ability as well---at the very least they can speak to similarily mind-speak-capable people.

If that didn't work then I woulfd use the force push, one of those force pushes done right could really fuck up a plant. using the force to propel sharp obejcts, Sand, Broken Glass, would also work against them.

A Plant is much stronger than a human, and wasn't there a discussion on something about living things being much harder to move via Force than nonliving things? (despite what Yosemite Bear said, the Plants are most definetly living, breathing beings.)

Also unless you somehow fully immobilize a plant, he/she can dodge said sharp objects rathe easily if they're under bullet-speed. (Vash dodged almost a hundred rounds from a sitting position in one episode)

[Shinova]

Oh and about the mind-trick thing:



In the episode where Dominique the Cyclops fights Vash, Vash demonstrates that he can resist the mind-freezing effects of the Demon Eye, which is pretty strong since it can apparently affect many people at once and even Legato as well, seemingly.

[Darth Fanboy]

Legato showed that mind control powers work against them. I would use a mind trick to make one of them put a gun to his head.

There is more evidence that Legato's powers are telekinetic in nature, rather than telepathic. Also keep in mind that Plants have some telepathic ability as well---at the very least they can speak to similarily mind-speak-capable people.

Then use telekenesis to accomplish that same objective, But Legato did in fact posess people. Like those children right before the battle with Horn Freak. One could argue extreme TK manipulation but afterwards they could not recollect the experience, leading me to believe it was more of mind trick

A Plant is much stronger than a human, and wasn't there a discussion on something about living things being much harder to move via Force than nonliving things? (despite what Yosemite Bear said, the Plants are most definetly living, breathing beings.)

unless you can prove that it will not work at all, then its still a possibility

Also unless you somehow fully immobilize a plant, he/she can dodge said sharp objects rathe easily if they're under bullet-speed. (Vash dodged almost a hundred rounds from a sitting position in one episode)

I doubt Even Vash could Dodge a cloud of sand mixed with tiny fragments of glass. I mean it is a cloud, thats like running in the rain and trying not to get wet, Of course he could use his coat as a form of protection and be mostly okay but his vision would be impaired. leaving an opening for the Jedi. I would guess that by doing something like that, then tossing the lightsaber, A Jedi could win...possibly As long as there was no Angel Arm usage

This is a tuffy.

[Shinova]

Then use telekenesis to accomplish that same objective, But Legato did in fact posess people. Like those children right before the battle with Horn Freak. One could argue extreme TK manipulation but afterwards they could not recollect the experience, leading me to believe it was more of mind trick

Does Jedi TK do things like move people's individual limbs?

I doubt Even Vash could Dodge a cloud of sand mixed with tiny fragments of glass. I mean it is a cloud, thats like running in the rain and trying not to get wet, Of course he could use his coat as a form of protection and be mostly okay but his vision would be impaired. leaving an opening for the Jedi. I would guess that by doing something like that, then tossing the lightsaber, A Jedi could win...possibly As long as there was no Angel Arm usage

That's IF there's a glass wall or window nearby for a Jedi to shatter and throw at the Plant. And there's no reason a Plant has to try to run through a shower of glass. He/she could just run around it incoming glass and toward the Jedi (Vash vs E.G. Mine fight---showing that Vash has fast lateral running speed as well as quick minute movements to dodge bullets)


Anyway, this whole debate so far is hinging on the assumption that the Plant is unarmed while the Jedi still has his lightsabre, which already puts the Plant at a huge disadvantage.

[Shinova]

And Angel Arm is a no-no anyway, since t he chargeup sequence is so long. Unless you mean using it the normal-way as a revolver. But Force-wall would block that.

[Shinova]

Also, aren't Jedi supposed to be able to block KT shots or something? I heard this somewhere.

[Darth Fanboy]

Depending on how close to the Jedi Vash is, there is no way unless he can move instantaneous that he would be able to dodge, especially ifVash didnt know what was about to happen. he has a tendency to be caught off guard by unfamiliar opponents at first. Also depends on how large this cloud is and if the Jedi uses his precog to figure out which way Vash is moving.

Broken glass was an example, I assume most places where this battle takes place there will be a supply of loose debris handy for a jedi to utilize.

Of course Vash would have to be armed. using his standard revolver a Jedi stops the bullets in mid air before they reach him. If He is given a blaster pistol like Han Solos then the Jedi has thatnifty Bolt bblocking saber technique. Since I am unsure of Vash's hand to hand combat skills I would have to say that up close and personal, he will get thrashed by a Jedi, who would still have the force and precog as well as any sort of warrior training he may have recieved.

As for TK being used on limbs, well, I dont see why it couldnt. In fact with your other argument about The force working better when it comes to manipulating non living things well, Vash does have a fake arm with an autmoatic weapon in it.

A Jedi who knew what he was up against might even be able to use the force to prevent the bullet from even leaving the barrel of the gun, messing it up royally.

I will concede that we never saw the true depth of Vash or Knives' powers and that if they truly reach their full potential I think they could royally fuck up your avg Jedi. As we saw them in Trigun though, they never displayed enough strength other than the angel Arms that makes me think they could win.

[Solauren]

Jedi vs Vash

Vash fires guns
Jedi hauls him up into the air
Jedi uses Lightsaber to cut off arms

if Vash is not a real life form... (i.e aDroid to a Jedi)
Force crush it into a ball of metal

[Gil Hamilton]

Jedi vs Vash

Vash fires guns
Jedi hauls him up into the air
Jedi uses Lightsaber to cut off arms

if Vash is not a real life form... (i.e aDroid to a Jedi)
Force crush it into a ball of metal

Well, Vash probably wouldn't start by firing, since he's more about saving the butterfly and the spider than to start gunning down a stranger.

Knives on the other hand...
Knives fires gun
Jedi fails in a head, with a hole in his head, as the Jedi have never demonstrated the ability to be able to block something as fast moving as a bullet.

[Ghost Rider]

Jedi vs Vash

Vash fires guns
Jedi hauls him up into the air
Jedi uses Lightsaber to cut off arms

if Vash is not a real life form... (i.e aDroid to a Jedi)
Force crush it into a ball of metal

Well, Vash probably wouldn't start by firing, since he's more about saving the butterfly and the spider than to start gunning down a stranger.

Knives on the other hand...
Knives fires gun
Jedi fails in a head, with a hole in his head, as the Jedi have never demonstrated the ability to be able to block something as fast moving as a bullet.

Yes, and in Genosis...the blaster shots were moving slower then bullets and the not the calculated 1 KM/sec.

I'm sure most gun are far beyond this capability

[Gil Hamilton]

Yes, and in Genosis...the blaster shots were moving slower then bullets and the not the calculated 1 KM/sec.

I'm sure most gun are far beyond this capability

Or like how it takes a quarter second for the blaster bolt from Jango Fett to cross the distance from his gun to the Jedi he guns down on Geonosis. Yes, Ghost Rider, that blaster bolt was moving at 1 km/sec. I guarantee you that I can find a dozen instances of blaster bolts moving about as fast as baseballs for every instance you can find of them moving as fast as slugs from real guns and that's the truth.

[Ghost Rider]

I see...so when I can see in movies that bullets go about 10-20 m/s I can say obviously that has no application to low or high end whatsoever?

And how does this prove the Jedi CANNOT block Bullets again?