Last Abortion Clinic in South Dakota Closes

[Invictus ChiKen]

Okay please correct me if I am wrong but why does it seem that so many on this board think pro-lifers aren't just, ya know in favor of not killing what they believe to be children? (However misguided pro-lifers may or may not be)

[General Zod]

Okay please correct me if I am wrong but why does it seem that so many on this board think pro-lifers aren't just, ya know in favor of not killing what they believe to be children? (However misguided pro-lifers may or may not be)

Because their "beliefs" are based on dogma of institutions known for wanting to control the sex lives of everyone they can the vast majority of the time. Touting abortion as murder is just another attempt at quilting people into not having sex.

[Surlethe]

I am skeptical of any claim that the anti-abortion movement itself exists solely to control the sexual behavior of women, if only because those within the movement are so convinced that abortion is murder. However, as a component in the entire religious right movement, it makes perfect sense that the battle against abortion is one front in the battle to control sexuality.

The issue really boils down to this: the religious right wants to remake American culture in its image. Part of that is its Puritanical sexual morality; part of that is its hard line on abortion. That is why there is so much crossover between the two issues: because they are both part and parcel of the religious right's goal. So when you contemplate anti-abortion and find that there are undercurrents of sexual control in it, it should not be surprising at all: the two are simply two faces of the same monster.

[Patrick Degan]

What the rank-and-file drones in the movement who are easily stirred by emotion and who need their pastors and Benny Hinn or Pat Robertson to do all their thinking for them IS UTTERLY IMMATERIAL to what the object of the exercise is ultimately about, and that is simply power and control. Strip away all the rhetoric and it comes down to a basic drive to keep people obedient to authority, to maximise consequences and suffering for every slightest act to restrict or eliminate altogether freedom of choice, to redirect basic human drives down pathways suitable for those in power. This really is not all that difficult to work out.

[Darth Wong]

Okay please correct me if I am wrong but why does it seem that so many on this board think pro-lifers aren't just, ya know in favor of not killing what they believe to be children? (However misguided pro-lifers may or may not be)

Answer my post, asshole. I'm getting tired of the way you toss attacks and then sneak away.

Don't think I've forgotten that you chose to casually ignore this ultimatum of mine. You have been on thin ice ever since. Frankly, the next time you piss me off, I'll ban you summarily.

[SirNitram]

Anyone who believes this is solely about 'Dead babies', please explain why the movement has only attempted to pass laws that prosecute the doctors, but never the women. In a rational view of 'Abortion == Dead person', both are guilty of murder.

However, if placed in the context of the Religious Right and it's belief women are essentially stupid things who must be guided by men all the time, the woman is the unwitting pawn of the evil doctor's schemes, thus never prosecuted.

[Invictus ChiKen]

Okay please correct me if I am wrong but why does it seem that so many on this board think pro-lifers aren't just, ya know in favor of not killing what they believe to be children? (However misguided pro-lifers may or may not be)

Answer my post, asshole. I'm getting tired of the way you toss attacks and then sneak away.

Don't think I've forgotten that you chose to casually ignore this ultimatum of mine. You have been on thin ice ever since. Frankly, the next time you piss me off, I'll ban you summarily.

Answerded and I over my apologies and a retraction here as well.

[Stark]

Can't we just get a specific debate thread on this topic? It crops up in any abortion thread and quickly derails it from 'hey look at this current event regarding abortion' to 'zomg noes abortion activitists don't think that way'.

[General Zod]

Can't we just get a specific debate thread on this topic? It crops up in any abortion thread and quickly derails it from 'hey look at this current event regarding abortion' to 'zomg noes abortion activitists don't think that way'.

Why bother? Pro-lifer retards would just forget about it a few weeks later and do the same thing yet again in the next abortion related thread.

[Stark]

Yeah, and then they could get ruled. Every abortion thread being a rehash of the same arguments by the same people is amusing, but not informative. Even just moving the relevant posts would be hilarious, but actually challenging these people to a proper debate or shutting the fuck up would seem best.

[Invictus ChiKen]

We'd need to pick a neutral judge and decide who would represent which side.

There is one challenge I'd like to issue, but it will have to wait. I actually plan to offer up cash for this one literally putting my money where my mouth is.

[Imperial Overlord]

We do have a Coliseum for a reason.

[Stark]

We'd need to pick a neutral judge and decide who would represent which side.

There is one challenge I'd like to issue, but it will have to wait. I actually plan to offer up cash for this one literally putting my money where my mouth is.

You're fucking wierd.

[Invictus ChiKen]

You're fucking wierd.

How so I list the parameters we'd need for such a debate and I stated I plan to issue a challenge just as soon as I have some cash on hand to do so.

[Stark]

1) nobody wants your fucking money

2) you're a catholic apologist, and your 'challenge' will be fundamentally broken

In other words, it's bother embarrassingly gauche AND worthless.

[Vehrec]

We do have a Coliseum for a reason.

I second this motion, if two suitable gladiators can be located. The masses need more than just bread, Senators!

[Cairber]

Okay please correct me if I am wrong but why does it seem that so many on this board think pro-lifers aren't just, ya know in favor of not killing what they believe to be children? (However misguided pro-lifers may or may not be)

If it was all about saving babies, then the same groups would be fighting for pregnancy not to be a preexisting condition on individual health insurance, they would not vote against health care for children, they would not partner with companies that prey on the poor or undeducated and cause the deaths of children (nestle!- partner of many prolife institutions)...there are so many issues I could add to this list that lead to the deaths of children yet the prolife movement sides against the path that would help save lives almost every time. It's all about saving the children until the children are born.

And then there is the fact that none of them seem to want to address the issue that married women get abortions and older, rich women get abortions. They want to continually paint this as an issue of the poor because it's easy to step on those women. It's easy to shame them and keep them down; they don't have the social or political capital.


I think someone with better debate skills would be able to articulate my thoughts better. I would like to see this in the Coliseum.

[Invictus ChiKen]

If it was all about saving babies, then the same groups would be fighting for pregnancy not to be a preexisting condition on individual health insurance, they would not vote against health care for children, they would not partner with companies that prey on the poor or undeducated and cause the deaths of children (nestle!- partner of many prolife institutions)...there are so many issues I could add to this list that lead to the deaths of children yet the prolife movement sides against the path that would help save lives almost every time. It's all about saving the children until the children are born.

And then there is the fact that none of them seem to want to address the issue that married women get abortions and older, rich women get abortions. They want to continually paint this as an issue of the poor because it's easy to step on those women. It's easy to shame them and keep them down; they don't have the social or political capital.

You make a very strong point, really there is nothing I can say against it. Other than I myself feel that being pro-life means more than being anti-abortion it also means being there for the child and the family before the birth, during the birth and afterwords.

Kill off as many of the causes for abortions and watch the numbers go down. At least this is how I feel.

Thank you very much for your input Cairber

[Cairber]

I see a really big difference between groups that fall under "pro-life Democrats" and "pro-life Republicans". Most pro-lifers, in general, are in the latter category. But there are pro-life Democrats, and, if you go to the sites of organizations (such as the general "Democrats for Life") you will see that they specifically call for "empowering women", and they want initiatives like WIC expansion, sex education, ending of discrimination against pregnant women, making the adoption tax credits permanent, etc.

I think that, possibly, people who are pro-life but are working to lower the number of abortions through means like these are not the ones everyone here is talking about as holding women down and controlling them. It's the other 70% of them that do the stuff like I talked about in my last post.

[Stark]

It's kinda wierd for people to talk about the 'causes of abortion', like it's a natural disaster or soemthing. It's even more ironic for a catholic to demand more birth control, more sex education, and less poverty... although I don't think his brain actually realises that's what he said.

This IS the guy who thought a literal baby-machine would remove the need for abortions, after all.

[Invictus ChiKen]

I see a really big difference between groups that fall under "pro-life Democrats" and "pro-life Republicans". Most pro-lifers, in general, are in the latter category. But there are pro-life Democrats, and, if you go to the sites of organizations (such as the general "Democrats for Life") you will see that they specifically call for "empowering women", and they want initiatives like WIC expansion, sex education, ending of discrimination against pregnant women, making the adoption tax credits permanent, etc.

I think that, possibly, people who are pro-life but are working to lower the number of abortions through means like these are not the ones everyone here is talking about as holding women down and controlling them. It's the other 70% of them that do the stuff like I talked about in my last post.

I see thanks again Cairber. I can't really state my position well nor can I explain how it works but this is my view in a nutshell:

All life is precious even those hypothetical frozen embryos that are brought up in our debates. However a 12 year old over child takes president over a pietre(spelling?) dish full of them and sometimes it is best to abort to save the mothers life.

I just wish I knew how to explain it properly but my best attempts are Epic Fail... There worse there Divine Fail.

[DPDarkPrimus]

In other words "abortion is bad except when it isn't".

[Stark]

Yeah, except you can't explain why without refering to your irrelevant belief system. That's why you always, always lose these debates.

[Invictus ChiKen]

It's kinda wierd for people to talk about the 'causes of abortion', like it's a natural disaster or soemthing. It's even more ironic for a catholic to demand more birth control, more sex education, and less poverty... although I don't think his brain actually realises that's what he said.

This IS the guy who thought a literal baby-machine would remove the need for abortions, after all.

Yes I am all for more education and less poverty. An I'm not to happy about the Holy Mother Church's teachings on birth control and I'm not to crazy about Priestly Celibacy in the Latin Rite... Not sure why people don't just switch to the Eastern if they want to be married Priests so bad.

For those that don't know the Holy Roman Catholic Church has 20 rites and 19 of them allow married men to be Priests.

But if you want a list of my issues with the Church Stark feel free to PM me.

An yes I realize I am must appear to be a really odd person you should see the reactions I get from fellow Catholics.

[Cairber]

It is really interesting to look at this website for the National Right To Life Committee:

http://www.capwiz.com/nrlc/issues/

Look at that list. See how they are even trying to get health coverage for the unborn child, yet no where on the list do they show the Democrat for Life Bill which is called The Pregnant Women Support Act. You can read about this act here: link .

I am not saying I support the legislation, but it is telling that the main Republican coalition against choice fails to even list this legislation, which aims to lower abortion by empowering pregnant women and doing things like guaranteeing them insurance.