Observing the behaviour of turbolasers and blasters

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Observing the behaviour of turbolasers and blasters

Post by His Divine Shadow »

OK, let's observe the behaviour of turbolasers and weapons based on that principle.
Observation #1 wrote: TIE's firing on the Falcon:a
http://www.hisdivineshadow.com/misc/media/tie/clip1.avi
http://www.hisdivineshadow.com/misc/media/tie/clip2.avi
http://www.hisdivineshadow.com/misc/media/tie/clip3.avi
http://www.hisdivineshadow.com/misc/media/tie/clip4.avi

Tantive IV chase:
http://www.hisdivineshadow.com/misc/med ... refire.avi

Observed fact #1 - The bolts change direction as the guns of the TIE changes direction, the bolts must be a pulse or something travelling in an unknown medium and are not independant entities(like say how a bullet would act after being fired from a weapon).

Observed fact #2 - From the clip showing the Tantive-IV being chased we see the bolts are not affected by gravity.

Theory: There might be an invisible beam that acts as a medium that the destrucive energies travel across.

Reprecussions:
These scenes invalidate ideas that bolts are independant entities or anything along those lines, they're part of a mechanism that we can only see a part of.
Observation #2 wrote:Another clip:
http://www.hisdivineshadow.com/misc/med ... _bolts.avi

Observed fact #1 - We clearly see that there are bolt shield interactions without the presence of a visual bolt in this clip, this means that the bolt is not the destructive part, but merely something that closely correlates with the destructive part.

Theory:
It might be a trail, an analogy would be that of a rocket and it's exhaust

Reprecussions:
This disproves theories like plasma bolts and such because in those, the visible bolt has to be the damaging factor, but it's clearly not, it's just a commonly correlated independant phenomenon that has no bearing on the bolt's destructiveness.

Image
Observation #3 wrote: Image
Image

Clip:
http://www.hisdivineshadow.com/misc/med ... escape.avi

Observed fact #1 - Blaster bolts are sometimes translucent, this would not be possible if they where consisting of hot pressurized matter, nor do they arc the slightest.
They must consist of massless particles of some kind.

Reprecussions:
Blaster bolts cannot consist of plasma or any type of matter.

Observed fact #3 - Bolts are green, this means they do not consist of matter at high temperatures, since there is no temperature at which a surface glows green.

Reprecussions:
Clearly they cannot be plasma weapons due to this since plasma weapons glow white, and the nature of plasma will cause energy to be released from it in the form of white hot light at such rates that the bolt would look like a miniature sun, this is assuming ofcourse that there is some magic contaniment field that would hold it together even when it's left the barrel, in reality without pressure it would expand in size many many times and it would just look like a white hot explosion at the muzzle.
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Re: Observing the behaviour of turbolasers and blasters

Post by His Divine Shadow »

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Observation #1 wrote: TIE's firing on the Falcon:a
http://www.hisdivineshadow.com/misc/media/tie/clip1.avi
http://www.hisdivineshadow.com/misc/media/tie/clip2.avi
http://www.hisdivineshadow.com/misc/media/tie/clip3.avi
http://www.hisdivineshadow.com/misc/media/tie/clip4.avi

Tantive IV chase:
http://www.hisdivineshadow.com/misc/med ... refire.avi

Observed fact #1 - The bolts change direction as the guns of the TIE changes direction, the bolts must be a pulse or something travelling in an unknown medium and are not independant entities(like say how a bullet would act after being fired from a weapon).

Observed fact #2 - From the clip showing the Tantive-IV being chased we see the bolts are not affected by gravity.

Theory: There might be an invisible beam that acts as a medium that the destrucive energies travel across.

Reprecussions:
These scenes invalidate ideas that bolts are independant entities or anything along those lines, they're part of a mechanism that we can only see a part of.
Adding another theory on this one.
Theory:
They are massless but propagate forward at a subluminal speed, it might be so that the medium, i.e. the invisible beam, makes the destructive energies of the bolt travel in a tight helix, so the particles could still travel at C, like massless particles should, while having a subluminal forward propagation.

Another theory on massed observations of weapons fire shows a consistant delay in fired shots, they always take 2-4(sometimes 6) frames to travel to their targets, this would seem to me that if there is a helix at which the energies travel across the tightness of the helix is dependant on the lenght of the invisible beam and that it seems to stretch out with longer ranges, explaining how bolts fired at targets further away travel faster.
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Post by SPOOFE »

Well... for each piece of evidence that supports the interpretations mentioned above, there are others that violate them. For instance, despite the fact that we occasionally see damage dealt to a target before the visible bolt hits, we still see that the damage does not impact its target at the speed of light. However, energy or massless particles would travel exactly at, or very close to, the speed of light.

That would mean that, if there is some sort of "invisible beam" along which the bolts propogate, then this beam - or some other mechanism - slows down the bolt or "damage-dealing" portion of the attack, for one reason or another. This would require exotic means of energy transfer, one which I can't think of to match the evidence as viewed. It could have something to do with the relative strengths of the variable yields of the blasts... a shot turned up to full intensity could behave differently than one set lower.

We have another problem if we assume that the bolt is just a side-effect of the actual damage-dealing portion: Why would the bolt travel slower than the actual blast? This would require either an energy expenditure that creates matter from energy - requiring a SHITLOAD of energy, and thus putting a huge differential of strengths based on range - or we assume, again, that there's some exotic mechanism that's slowing the energy down in a vacuum. Or we can assume that the actual blast travels at the same speed as the bolt, and the bolt simply travels immediately behind, but then we're back at square one anyway.

Furthermore, your screen caps of the Naboo transport being shot at demonstrates another interesting phenomenon... in that scene, you can see energy blasts travelling faster than turbolaser shots seen in, say, TESB. In fact, I think it's well-known that there's a HUGE variable between the propogation speeds of blaster bolts throughout the series. What would cause this? A mechanism of the targetting computer? Why would it ever be desireable to slow down the speed of your blast?

Frankly, I just call it funky and leave it at that.

EDIT: Just saw your "Helix" idea. Interesting, and one I'll have to think about...
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

We have another problem if we assume that the bolt is just a side-effect of the actual damage-dealing portion: Why would the bolt travel slower than the actual blast?
The actual bolt travelling through the "medium" might cause a ripple or somesuch effect that causes a part of it's energy to react in an unknown fashion with the invisible medium, this might result in a burst of light along a certain spectral range, in the case of imperial weapons, green.
This would require either an energy expenditure that creates matter from energy - requiring a SHITLOAD of energy
I am not sure it is turned into matter, I'd merely say the green, or red, light is just EM radiation, not actual matter.

On another note, I wonder if the helix theory(which is originally MW's not mine) might have been on the mind of Dr. Saxton, given his mention of spinning the beam in order to decrease wasted energy released laterally?
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Addendum to original topic, quotes and evidence:
========================
Pg. 3: Energy weapons fire invisible energy beams at lightspeed. The visible "bolt" is a glowing pulse that travels along the beam at less than lightspeed...The light given off by visible bolts depletes the overall energy content of a beam, limiting its range. Turbolasers gain a longer range by spinning the energy beam, which reduces waste glow.
========================
-Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections

========================
"Ten seconds," Han told Leia and Dorja, and reached for the triggers to the concussion-missile tubers.

Anticipation drew a metallic streak down his tongue. He felt a prickle of sweat on his scalp.

"Five." he triggered the first pair of concussion missiles, knowing that unlike the laser cannon, they did not strike at the speed of light."

"Two." Han triggered another pair of missiles. The Millenium Falcon's engines howled as they fought the pull of the dovin basal's gravity.

"Fire." the dovin basal swept past, and suddenly the display lit up with the six approaching coralskippers. The combined power of the eight turbolasers ifired straight at them.

The six coralskippers had also split into two Vs of three craft each, the formations on slightly diverging courses, but both formations were running into the Falcon and her armament at a combined velocity of over ninety percent of the speed of light. None of them had shifted their dovin basals to warp space defensively ahead of them, and the pilots had only an instant to perceive the doom staring them in the face, and no time to react. The first vic ran right into the first pair of missiles and the turbolaser fire, and all three erupted in fire as their coral hulls shattered into fragments.
========================
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

Hey, HDS, while this really doesn't have to do with anything, I thought I'd at least let you know about it.

There is evidence of what a blaster bolt looks like head on:
http://index.echostation.com/trilogy/detentionblock.htm

It's the picture to the left of the headline "The Last Thing You'll Ever See", close to the bottom of the page.

Some commentary is also present.

Not much, but it's just a little something.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

SPOOFE wrote:Well... for each piece of evidence that supports the interpretations mentioned above, there are others that violate them. For instance, despite the fact that we occasionally see damage dealt to a target before the visible bolt hits, we still see that the damage does not impact its target at the speed of light. However, energy or massless particles would travel exactly at, or very close to, the speed of light.
I am aware of this, I form my theories with this in mind, hence the helix theory which I really only expand upon from the mention MW gave it on his TL page.
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Post by SPOOFE »

I think this helix thingy idea can serve as the "some mechanism" that I referred to, that causes the "apparent bolt" to travel slower than light.
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Post by ClaysGhost »

SPOOFE wrote:Well... for each piece of evidence that supports the interpretations mentioned above, there are others that violate them. For instance, despite the fact that we occasionally see damage dealt to a target before the visible bolt hits, we still see that the damage does not impact its target at the speed of light. However, energy or massless particles would travel exactly at, or very close to, the speed of light.
Exactly at.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

ClaysGhost wrote:
SPOOFE wrote:Well... for each piece of evidence that supports the interpretations mentioned above, there are others that violate them. For instance, despite the fact that we occasionally see damage dealt to a target before the visible bolt hits, we still see that the damage does not impact its target at the speed of light. However, energy or massless particles would travel exactly at, or very close to, the speed of light.
Exactly at.
Thats not particularly helpfull, you have any contributions to make? Or atleast a disagreement, where I to guess at what you said it would be that you think they're not massless.

Note, I never said they would propagate at C forward, infact this is my whole point
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Post by ClaysGhost »

His Divine Shadow wrote: Thats not particularly helpfull, you have any contributions to make? Or atleast a disagreement, where I to guess at what you said it would be that you think they're not massless.
I thought it was reasonably clear what I said; apologies if it wasn't. I have no position on whether they're massless or not. Two options were mentioned in this sentence:
SPOOFE wrote: However, energy or massless particles would travel exactly at, or very close to, the speed of light.
The correct option is the first, I think; there is at least one reference frame where the momentum (p) of a massless particle travelling in empty space at speed < c vanishes (one at rest with respect to the particle). The particle has zero rest mass, and so in that frame both terms in the special relativistic energy formula

E^2 = (p * c)^2 + (m0 * c^2)^2

are zero, and the particle has zero energy and momentum. As far as I can see, that means it ceases to exist in any physically meaningful sense (how can you detect an energyless, momemtumless particle?). However, in any inertial frame that is moving with respect to this first frame, the particle has momentum and hence energy, and be detectable! So I can make this particle appear and disappear by picking an appropriate reference frame. The only way out of this is if the particle travels at c, in which case I cannot construct an inertial reference frame in which the particle is static (or even moving at v < c), due to the constancy of the speed of light in all frames. Therefore, to avoid unobservable behaviour, massless particles could only travel at c.

I was hoping to avoid all that :)
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

I was more of the opinion that the particle in question travels at C and has momentum, possibly a photon or something like it, which travels in a medium.

And today we've been able to slow down light inside a medium, right?
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Post by ClaysGhost »

His Divine Shadow wrote:I was more of the opinion that the particle in question travels at C and has momentum, possibly a photon or something like it, which travels in a medium.

And today we've been able to slow down light inside a medium, right?
Yes, but at no point in those media does a photon travel at less than c. The "signal" is slowed by (in everyday materials) the repeated absorption/re-emission of photons, but the photons themselves always travel at c. I think it's unlikely that a TL spontaneously creates some medium along the beam path that interacts with the massless beam - practicalities aside, there's no obvious reason why you'd want to intentionally slow the TL beam through a medium when you could have it travel at c all the time.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

ClaysGhost wrote:Yes, but at no point in those media does a photon travel at less than c. The "signal" is slowed by (in everyday materials) the repeated absorption/re-emission of photons, but the photons themselves always travel at c.
And it's the same here, the particles travel at C, just not directly forward.
And I believe a theory like this is required because they are definitly massless according to visual evidence(do you agree?) and they definitly travel at subluminal velocities(sometimes an exception has occured).
I think it's unlikely that a TL spontaneously creates some medium along the beam path that interacts with the massless beam - practicalities aside, there's no obvious reason why you'd want to intentionally slow the TL beam through a medium when you could have it travel at c all the time.
Correct, no obvious reasons.
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Post by ClaysGhost »

His Divine Shadow wrote: And it's the same here, the particles travel at C, just not directly forward.
The first few objections that come to mind are that if the particles do not travel directly forward, so as to match the propagation speed of the bolt, then you should see the beam dropping in gravitational fields, and also that an already complicated weapon has got even more complicated because there's some sort of extra force keeping the massless particles in a spiral formation, which must increase energy requirements/reduce efficiency.
And I believe a theory like this is required because they are definitly massless according to visual evidence(do you agree?) and they definitly travel at subluminal velocities(sometimes an exception has occured).
I don't think that follows. Something in the weapon travels at subluminal velocities - that doesn't necessarily imply anything about the speed of the massless carrier particles, especially the evidence you have shown in the past has beams without visible emission striking before the bolt. I also thought that many sources talk about lightspeed TL weapons.
Correct, no obvious reasons.
There are some obvious reasons against. At the least this would have to delay firing, because the medium could not be projected faster than the massless beam, and all it seems to do is reduce the capabilities of the weapon, not increase them.
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Post by Mad »

SPOOFE wrote:That would mean that, if there is some sort of "invisible beam" along which the bolts propogate, then this beam - or some other mechanism - slows down the bolt or "damage-dealing" portion of the attack, for one reason or another. This would require exotic means of energy transfer, one which I can't think of to match the evidence as viewed. It could have something to do with the relative strengths of the variable yields of the blasts... a shot turned up to full intensity could behave differently than one set lower.

We have another problem if we assume that the bolt is just a side-effect of the actual damage-dealing portion: Why would the bolt travel slower than the actual blast? This would require either an energy expenditure that creates matter from energy - requiring a SHITLOAD of energy, and thus putting a huge differential of strengths based on range - or we assume, again, that there's some exotic mechanism that's slowing the energy down in a vacuum. Or we can assume that the actual blast travels at the same speed as the bolt, and the bolt simply travels immediately behind, but then we're back at square one anyway.

Furthermore, your screen caps of the Naboo transport being shot at demonstrates another interesting phenomenon... in that scene, you can see energy blasts travelling faster than turbolaser shots seen in, say, TESB. In fact, I think it's well-known that there's a HUGE variable between the propogation speeds of blaster bolts throughout the series. What would cause this? A mechanism of the targetting computer? Why would it ever be desireable to slow down the speed of your blast?

Frankly, I just call it funky and leave it at that.

EDIT: Just saw your "Helix" idea. Interesting, and one I'll have to think about...
My current work in progress hypothesis is an extention to the "ripple" theory. Under the ripple idea, an invisible lightspeed beam is fired and the visible bolt is a ripple in the beam. But that alone doesn't explain the delay between firing and damage in most instances.

So my hypothesis to fix that is that the beam is fired and the bolt appears at the start and "ripples" down the beam at sublight, but that initial beam is only a relatively weak warm-up beam as the weapon prepares to fire. After a couple frames (typically 2-4 according to HDS), there is a power spike where the main portion of the damage is released.

The speed of the bolt may be controllable, perhaps by the strength of the warm-up beam. This means that the bolt typically hits the target when the power spike hits. This may be intentional so as to assist in keeping the beam on target for when the weapon is ready to fire.

This helps explain both the delay between firing and damage, the reason for mismatched timing in some cases, and the visible bolts changing their vector in mid-flight in HDS' clips.

However, bolts don't always change their direction in mid-flight. Take, for example, the TIE fighter during the Battle of Yavin that fires at an X-wing, misses, and hits the Death Star surface. The bolts there all have different vectors, even though multiple bolts are in-flight. (This would mean multiple warm-up bolts being fired at once, each in a different direction, by my hypothesis.) Another TIE chasing an X-wing also had multiple visible bolts flying in different directions at once, as did the Falcon while escaping from the Death Star.

On the other hand, some weapons, like blaster bolts, can't have a carrier-beam to sustain them. This means they shouldn't alter their direction in mid-flight without hitting something. Such as when Han fires a blaster in the trash compactor, it bounces around but he moves his blaster while trying to evade the bolt (which is still dangerous, as seen in lightsaber bolt deflection). It would appear that a different operational theory is required for hand blasters than from ship-mounted lasers.

By the way, photons are affected by gravity just like any other known particle. Otherwise black holes wouldn't be theorized. It's just that light travels so fast that it's out of our visual range in most circumstances before gravity has a chance to visibly alter its course (at 300,000 km/s, it takes a lot of gravity to do anything before the photon is effectively out of range of the gravity well). That blaster bolts are apparently not affected by gravity does not imply that they are massless particles. In the case of turbolasers, it does imply the the bolt is a kind of ripple or something traveling along an invisible beam. But, as the trash compactor scene demonstrates (as well as Jedi deflecting bolts with their lightsabers), hand blasters don't have that invisible carrier beam.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

ClaysGhost wrote:The first few objections that come to mind are that if the particles do not travel directly forward, so as to match the propagation speed of the bolt, then you should see the beam dropping in gravitational fields
Even if it's massless?
I would have believe the drop off to be as small as not to be noticeable.
I don't think that follows. Something in the weapon travels at subluminal velocities - that doesn't necessarily imply anything about the speed of the massless carrier particles, especially the evidence you have shown in the past has beams without visible emission striking before the bolt. I also thought that many sources talk about lightspeed TL weapons
Yes they do, ofcourse there are complications with visuals there.
Ofcourse the bolt is not the dangerous part itself according to me, but more like a side effect that occurs where the bolt's passed, so it's not truly correlated, but most of the time it's close enough that one does not see the difference.

Is the power variation in the beam thats also been proposed(in other threads) a better idea you think?
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Mad wrote:This helps explain both the delay between firing and damage, the reason for mismatched timing in some cases, and the visible bolts changing their vector in mid-flight in HDS' clips.
If this theory works better than the helix theory I have no qualms accepting it above mine, it is alot simpler really and would work better with observed weapons of the same type of technology actually propagating at C.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

His Divine Shadow wrote:
ClaysGhost wrote:
SPOOFE wrote:Well... for each piece of evidence that supports the interpretations mentioned above, there are others that violate them. For instance, despite the fact that we occasionally see damage dealt to a target before the visible bolt hits, we still see that the damage does not impact its target at the speed of light. However, energy or massless particles would travel exactly at, or very close to, the speed of light.
Exactly at.
Thats not particularly helpfull, you have any contributions to make? Or atleast a disagreement, where I to guess at what you said it would be that you think they're not massless.

Note, I never said they would propagate at C forward, infact this is my whole point
I agree with HDS that there appear to be two factors governing propogation: length of bolt and distance to target.

I think predominantly, for whatever reason, the length of the bolt determines the speed for SW "laser" weapons, but with large-scale (ship-to-ship) weaponry, some factor seems to change the propogation speed in longer-ranges despite unchanged bolt length.

However, for all we know, the HTLs, which are never directly observed, might have very rapid propogation rates, and it is simply light/medium or point-defense weaponry that is low-range anyway, and thus has low propogation speeds in ROTJ considering what one would expect to be there speed with 100s of k kilometer ranges.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Mad wrote:By the way, photons are affected by gravity just like any other known particle
I know this, however if we're to assume that the forward propagation rates of blaster bolts are not significantly faster than the ripple behind them, they need to be massless.
Ofcourse if it's like you say and just a timed instance then it's not as certain.
That blaster bolts are apparently not affected by gravity does not imply that they are massless particles.
Well if the ripple is any indication of acutal bolt speed it ought to.
In the case of turbolasers, it does imply the the bolt is a kind of ripple or something traveling along an invisible beam. But, as the trash compactor scene demonstrates (as well as Jedi deflecting bolts with their lightsabers), hand blasters don't have that invisible carrier beam.
It could be that the blaster does have one, but it stops just after it's fired, this could just have the result of making a blaster bolt that will rapidly degenerate.
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Post by NecronLord »

Just as a reference, In the battle in TPM the bolts actually rebound of the grass. Repetedley. :shock:
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Post by ClaysGhost »

His Divine Shadow wrote: Even if it's massless?
Yes. The only thing that makes massless particles appear to be unaffected by gravitational fields is their speed, as Mad pointed out. However, if you force the particles into a spiral so forward propagation speed is comparable to the visible bolt speed, you will see the effect.
Is the power variation in the beam thats also been proposed(in other threads) a better idea you think?
Yes, I think so. It accounts for why the Falcon isn't receiving significant momentum from the TL beam until the impact of the visible bolt in the ESB scene.
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Post by ClaysGhost »

NecronLord wrote:Just as a reference, In the battle in TPM the bolts actually rebound of the grass. Repetedley. :shock:
That's quite bizarre.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

And my somewhat unrelated post gets lost in the infitate debate... :roll:
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

ClaysGhost wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Just as a reference, In the battle in TPM the bolts actually rebound of the grass. Repetedley. :shock:
That's quite bizarre.
They are in the presence of a shield at the time, shields are "fuzzy" so it might be due to that
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