A hypothermia question

[Ford Prefect]

I was reading about hypothermia today. While it's fairly simple in regards to what happens as your body temperature drops, with the three 'stages', I was unable to discover any information regarding how quickly ones body temperature will drop in the presence of certain temperatures in the environment. For example, how quickly will your body temperature drop below 30C if the ambient temperature is around -100 degrees? Or lower, in fact.

Can you die in minutes in these sort of temperatures? Or is it slower, faster even?

[Colonel Olrik]

The body loses heat through convective and radiation heat transfer. The convective heat transfer between your body and the surrounding environment depends of its conditions. If the atmosphere is very still and you're adequately protected and not moving, you'll last longer. If it's even slightly windy your body will lose heat much quicker, if you're in water you're fucked since water has so much better heat absorption capacity than air.

[Stuart]

Can you die in minutes in these sort of temperatures? Or is it slower, faster even?

I'm not a doctor so I can't give any reliable medical information on this. However, during the WW2 Arctic Convoys, the survival times of people abandoning sinking ships was regarded as being no more than four or five minutes once they hit the water. There are notes of "miraculous" events of survivors being picked up alive after 15 minutes in the water.

In the Falklands War, it was regarded as being a great advance over WW2 that the survival equipment then available allowed men to survive up to 20 minutes in the water temperatures then prevailing.

I believe the Germans may have done some experiments on how long people could survive at varying temperatures; I don't have any details on that though,

[ThatGuyFromThatPlace]

Yes, it's very possible to die from hypothermia in very few minutes with temperatures as high as -10C depending on other conditions.

Another problem at those low temperatures that isn't touched on much, is that even if you manage to avoid dying from the cold, you will almost certainly die of dehydration. Temperatures that low freeze the moisture in the air causing it to becomes very dry, if your not careful, you can die just as fast of dehydration as if the temperature is 45C.

At temperatures of -100C, your getting into areas where any exposed flesh is nearly instantly frost-bitten regardless of activity or wind, without some very good thermal protection, you can die in scant seconds at that temperature.

[Ford Prefect]

Interesting. Thanks very much guys, that's really useful.

[Sir Sirius]

At temperatures of -100C, your getting into areas where any exposed flesh is nearly instantly frost-bitten regardless of activity or wind, without some very good thermal protection, you can die in scant seconds at that temperature.

There is something called a "super cold treatment" that is advertised as being effective on anything from insomnia to rheumatism. Quote from the site of a Finnish spa (link) that provides such a treatment:

"A Freezing Experince at Haikko! How do you survive the – 110 celsius cold? Come and have an extreme experience at Haikko Super Cold. You will be awarded a diploma for your bravery!

Super Cold treatment is always supervised by our trained staff. You will wear swim suit, headgear and mittens as well as socks and felt slippers. You will spend 1-3 minutes in the cold room, depending on your treatment purpose. Our staff will guide you, inform you the time and supervise the treatment all the time."

No mention people suffering from near instantaneous frostbites all over their bodies and dying of hypothermia within the first few seconds of their several minute long treatment. How dreadfully irresponsible advertising this is. How can these murderers get away with this?

Don't talk of things you know nothing of, dimwit.

[Spin Echo]

At temperatures of -100C, your getting into areas where any exposed flesh is nearly instantly frost-bitten regardless of activity or wind, without some very good thermal protection, you can die in scant seconds at that temperature.

There is something called a "super cold treatment" that is advertised as being effective on anything from insomnia to rheumatism. Quote from the site of a Finnish spa (link) that provides such a treatment:

I'm convinced that the Finns aren't quite human. They also have sauna competitions, where they crank the temperature up to +110 C and see who can stay in the longest.

[Feil]

It's physically impossible to heat liquid water above 100 C, Spin Echo. If they can do that, they're not just inhuman - they're God.

[Spin Echo]

It's physically impossible to heat liquid water above 100 C, Spin Echo. If they can do that, they're not just inhuman - they're God.

I don't know what type of sauna you are thinking of that involves liquid water. The kind I've always dealt with the air temperature is raised above 100C (well, maybe 75C in my case since I'm a wuss) and water is thrown onto hot coals to turn it into steam.

And for extra win, news coverage

[Howedar]

It's physically impossible to heat liquid water above 100 C, Spin Echo. If they can do that, they're not just inhuman - they're God.

Um, wrong.

Pressure very much changes the boiling point of any substance.

[Feil]

It's physically impossible to heat liquid water above 100 C, Spin Echo. If they can do that, they're not just inhuman - they're God.

I don't know what type of sauna you are thinking of that involves liquid water. The kind I've always dealt with the air temperature is raised above 100C (well, maybe 75C in my case since I'm a wuss) and water is thrown onto hot coals to turn it into steam.

And for extra win, news coverage

Point conceded.

[ThatGuyFromThatPlace]

The only information I can find on this 'Super Cold Treatment' is from a single Spa, and they don't even claim that the treatment is -110C, let alone that the 1-3 minutes of the treatment is spent wholly at that temperature, though it is implied that the treatment at least reaches that temperature. Claims that the treatment is "usede[sic] around the world" are similarly unsupported.
Even assuming the temperature does reach -110C, it is in a well controlled environment, provided the temperature transition is quick enough, that the treatment is administered in a low pressure environment and that the people undergoing the treatment assume a position conducive to low thermal loss, it is entirely possible that such low temperatures are survivable.
In the wild, you would be dead before you hit the ground, and when they eventually found you, they'd have to be careful not to break pieces off (unless the temperature went up).

[ThatGuyFromThatPlace]

EDIT: survivable without major frostbite, low levels of frost-bite can be recovered from quickly and without damage or pain.

[Sir Sirius]

The only information I can find on this 'Super Cold Treatment' is from a single Spa, and they don't even claim that the treatment is -110C, let alone that the 1-3 minutes of the treatment is spent wholly at that temperature, though it is implied that the treatment at least reaches that temperature.

You fucking liar! The page I linked to and quoted clearly mentions the temperature and the time spent in the room.

Claims that the treatment is "usede[sic] around the world" are similarly unsupported.

Your Google-fu is as weak as your mind is.
Dutch company that manufactures cryotherapy chambers. Even colder that on -150 Cº. This one must kill people in a fraction of a second.
Slovakian spa advertising their cryochamber. Hopefully the lengthy description of the treatment will discourage any further dishonesty. Link to a video on of the facility on YouTube (the part about cold treatment is near the end).
Link to the site of a Finnish manufacturer of cold chambers. Interresting claim they make on that page: "Stay 3 minutes in -110 degrees C and feel great… …In such a short exposure the body maintains its normal temperature. "Sankt Josef Centre for Orthopaedics and Rheumatology in Düsseldorf on cryochamber treatment.

Even assuming the temperature does reach -110C, it is in a well controlled environment, provided the temperature transition is quick enough, that the treatment is administered in a low pressure environment and that the people undergoing the treatment assume a position conducive to low thermal loss, it is entirely possible that such low temperatures are survivable.

The temperature is clearly stated in the paged I linked to and quoted. How does a "controlled environment" effect heat transfer? Any proof that the treatment is administered in a low pressure chamber, the paged I linked to make no mention of that? And finally, quite a change from you've made from your original claims, haven't you?

Quoted here to discourage further dishonesty:
"At temperatures of -100C, your getting into areas where any exposed flesh is nearly instantly frost-bitten regardless of activity or wind, without some very good thermal protection, you can die in scant seconds at that temperature."

In the wild, you would be dead before you hit the ground, and when they eventually found you, they'd have to be careful not to break pieces off (unless the temperature went up).

Some proof of these wild claims apart from the say so of your ignorant ass sure would be nice to see. But I'm not holding my breath in anticipation, dishonest idiots such as you tend to shy away from posting any.

ThatGuyFromThatPlace, time to swallow you're pride and conceed or this will get really ugly.

[Broomstick]

EDIT: survivable without major frostbite, low levels of frost-bite can be recovered from quickly and without damage or pain.

The hell you say.

Yes, you can recover from "low levels" of frostbite without permanent damage, but it's painful as hell. (Speaking from experience, unfortunately)

[Knife]

EDIT: survivable without major frostbite, low levels of frost-bite can be recovered from quickly and without damage or pain.

The hell you say.

Yes, you can recover from "low levels" of frostbite without permanent damage, but it's painful as hell. (Speaking from experience, unfortunately)

While that's true, pain is such a subjective thing in people. There is no way to predict how different people will respond to the same stimuli that should produce the same pain.

[Mayabird]

I believe the Germans may have done some experiments on how long people could survive at varying temperatures; I don't have any details on that though,

It was part of their experimentation on Jews during the Holocaust. They would dunk people into frigid waters in laboratory conditions and see how long they could survive, and also tested different methods of keeping them from dying afterwards.

Most of the 'test subjects' died horribly, of course, as with most of the medical experiments. There is some data to suggest that the Nazis actually did find something that could be useful from these tests, though. One of their methods seemed to have a better survival rate for pulling people out of frigid water than modern methods, but because no one wants to go through Nazi records (and especially quote them in a peer-reviewed journal - that would be career suicide) it's not really known if they did actually find something useful or not.

It's a big controversy now. Yes, the experiments were cruel, horrible, and completely unethical, but we can't change the past, and if we can save a few lives in the future because of it, why shouldn't doctors and scientists be allowed to analyze it and see if the data is valid?

[ThatGuyFromThatPlace]

ThatGuyFromThatPlace, time to swallow you're pride and conceed or this will get really ugly.

Spoken like a younger, more foolish me. at least you didn't change my attributions to 'ThatIdiotFromThatPlace'

The only information I can find on this 'Super Cold Treatment' is from a single Spa, and they don't even claim that the treatment is -110C, let alone that the 1-3 minutes of the treatment is spent wholly at that temperature, though it is implied that the treatment at least reaches that temperature.

You fucking liar! The page I linked to and quoted clearly mentions the temperature and the time spent in the room.

No, the page you linked clearly asks the question "How do you survive the -110 celsius cold?" and then goes on to explain about spending 1-3 minutes in 'the cold room' with no further mention of explicit temperatures involved. Implicitness in not to be confused with explicitness.

Claims that the treatment is "usede[sic] around the world" are similarly unsupported.

Your Google-fu is as weak as your mind is.
Dutch company that manufactures cryotherapy chambers. Even colder that on -150 Cº. This one must kill people in a fraction of a second.
Slovakian spa advertising their cryochamber. Hopefully the lengthy description of the treatment will discourage any further dishonesty. Link to a video on of the facility on YouTube (the part about cold treatment is near the end).
Link to the site of a Finnish manufacturer of cold chambers. Interresting claim they make on that page: "Stay 3 minutes in -110 degrees C and feel great… …In such a short exposure the body maintains its normal temperature. "Sankt Josef Centre for Orthopaedics and Rheumatology in Düsseldorf on cryochamber treatment.

That's better, though you've still only come up with one other spa that uses the treatment (Further research has turned up one or two spas that *may* use the treatment but their websites are only available in languages I can't read)
The aquacity link provides some nice claims, though the claimed temperature varies (video says -138 IIRC, page says -120) an 'acclimation chamber' is an interesting variation none of the other links have (though images on the Hakiko page support that they might have them as well) and the heavy insulation and air-lock style doors could easily support low-pressure environments (though not stated anywhere on the pages) which would prevent heat transfer.
Despite the acclimation chambers, transition to low extreme low temperatures seems to be quick, which would prevent formation of ice-crystals and other nasties associated with low temperatures and also gives the body/skin temperature less time to drop.

Even assuming the temperature does reach -110C, it is in a well controlled environment, provided the temperature transition is quick enough, that the treatment is administered in a low pressure environment and that the people undergoing the treatment assume a position conducive to low thermal loss, it is entirely possible that such low temperatures are survivable.

The temperature is clearly stated in the paged I linked to and quoted. How does a "controlled environment" effect heat transfer? Any proof that the treatment is administered in a low pressure chamber, the paged I linked to make no mention of that? And finally, quite a change from you've made from your original claims, haven't you?

Quoted here to discourage further dishonesty:
"At temperatures of -100C, your getting into areas where any exposed flesh is nearly instantly frost-bitten regardless of activity or wind, without some very good thermal protection, you can die in scant seconds at that temperature."

A controlled environment simply means that measures are taken to minimize heat transfer, I.E. low pressure environments, people positioned and instructed for minimal heat transfer, quick transitions etc.
hands, feet, and faces are covered, minimizing the greatest frost-bite threats, and I already mentioned the quick transition to temperature.
irrespective of wind and activity is not irrespective of other good safety precautions.
also, look up 'hyperbole' sometime.

In the wild, you would be dead before you hit the ground, and when they eventually found you, they'd have to be careful not to break pieces off (unless the temperature went up).

Some proof of these wild claims apart from the say so of your ignorant ass sure would be nice to see. But I'm not holding my breath in anticipation, dishonest idiots such as you tend to shy away from posting any.

According to the National Weather Service, temperatures as high as -37C can produce frostbite in ~five minutes.
A variety of sources average/comfortable human skin temperature (the temperature of the body to a depth of ~3mm) is ~34-37C, while your 'Cryochambers' reportedly reduce skin-temperature to ~2C, cold enough that the core body temperature is going to be rapidly hypothermic unless some other method of preventing heat transfer is available than is specified.

In short, relying on the promotional literature of some spas (lets leave the 'home' cryochamber manufacturers out of this, I can't believe you would find anything of merit in "immersing [yourself] in 'cryogenic' gas") does not 'scientific evidence' make. If the marketing lingo is to be believed (to the extent of the temperatures and lack of safety procedures involved) these things are very dangerous and easily deadly, either somebody is lying (have you looked up hyperbole yet?) or omissions as to the extent of safety procedures are being made (in either case, sounds suspiciously like 'marketing' to me, not facts).

Thank you for playing though, and have a nice day.

[Sir Sirius]

'ThatIdiotFromThatPlace'

That would have far too kind to a dishonest shit eating butt maggot like you.

No, the page you linked clearly asks the question "How do you survive the -110 celsius cold?" and then goes on to explain about spending 1-3 minutes in 'the cold room' with no further mention of explicit temperatures involved. Implicitness in not to be confused with explicitness.

Ok, I need a little help from the audience of this little debate (if there is any). Did anyone (apart TGFTP) upon reading the page I linked to not understand that temperature of the cold room is -110 Cº?

That's better, though you've still only come up with one other spa that uses the treatment (Further research has turned up one or two spas that *may* use the treatment but their websites are only available in languages I can't read) .

Do you really belief that there would be a single spa in the world offering such services if the consequences of exposure to these temperatures were anything akin you're wild and far out claims?

The aquacity link provides some nice claims, though the claimed temperature varies (video says -138 IIRC, page says -120) an 'acclimation chamber' is an interesting variation none of the other links have (though images on the Hakiko page support that they might have them as well) and the heavy insulation and air-lock style doors could easily support low-pressure environments (though not stated anywhere on the pages) which would prevent heat transfer.

Or the rooms are insulated because they are extremely cold. Post proof of low pressure rooms or stop bringing them up all the time, dimwit.

Despite the acclimation chambers, transition to low extreme low temperatures seems to be quick, which would prevent formation of ice-crystals and other nasties associated with low temperatures and also gives the body/skin temperature less time to drop.

If you are asserting that the formation of these ice crystals is what causes the near instantaneous frostbites and death within seconds you spoke of post proof of it already or concede.

A controlled environment simply means that measures are taken to minimize heat transfer, I.E. low pressure environments, people positioned and instructed for minimal heat transfer, quick transitions etc.

Where in the pages I’ve linked do they speak low pressure environments, special positions or instructions on how to minimize heat transfer? No where, that’s where. Hell the girls in that video just walked around, like the treatment description said. You are just pulling all of this shit out of your ignorant lying little ass, yet again.

hands, feet, and faces are covered, minimizing the greatest frost-bite threats, and I already mentioned the quick transition to temperature.

Gee, did you figure that all by you’re self or did you read from the links I provided… what a genius you are. Oh, and you did claim that at -100 Cº any exposed skin would be nearly instantly frostbitten. What about all the areas of the body you did list, shouldn’t those be effected?

also, look up 'hyperbole' sometime.

Oh, please, All you’re furious dodging, lying and eveding isn’t going to change that fact that you posted those claims, now stand by them like a man or concede, don’t backpedal like a little rat. No reasonable (or semi-reasonable) interpretation of your previous wild claims, hyperbole or not, could be reconciled with reality.

And let's be honest, there was no hyperbole in your first post in this thread. The dead before hitting the ground in your second post I can accept, but near instantaneous frostbites and death within a scant few seconds in the first one I ain't buying. You clearly meant that post to be informative.

According to the National Weather Service, temperatures as high as -37C can produce frostbite in ~five minutes.
A variety of sources average/comfortable human skin temperature (the temperature of the body to a depth of ~3mm) is ~34-37C, while your 'Cryochambers' reportedly reduce skin-temperature to ~2C, cold enough that the core body temperature is going to be rapidly hypothermic unless some other method of preventing heat transfer is available than is specified.

You lying little weasel! When I asked for proof for you’re wild claims I was talking about your asinine assertions of near instantaneous frostbites and death within a scant few seconds. And all succeed in posting is proof of frost bites occurring within five minutes and some blather about ”comfortable skin temperatures”. Christ you are so fucking dishonest evasive little weasel that it is actually sickening.

In short, relying on the promotional literature of some spas (lets leave the 'home' cryochamber manufacturers out of this, I can't believe you would find anything of merit in "immersing [yourself] in 'cryogenic' gas") does not 'scientific evidence' make.

This debate is about your wild claims of near instantaneous frostbites and death within in seconds at temperatures of -100 Cº, not the supposed benefits of cryotherapy. Do not attempt to derail the discussion with this red herring again, you lying little weasely sack of shit.

If the marketing lingo is to be believed (to the extent of the temperatures and lack of safety procedures involved) these things are very dangerous and easily deadly, either somebody is lying (have you looked up hyperbole yet?) or omissions as to the extent of safety procedures are being made (in either case, sounds suspiciously like 'marketing' to me, not facts).

So all websites I’ve linked to a grossly misrepresenting and flat out lying about their services and products… and I'm supposed to accept this just because you’re lying ignorant puss seeping ass says so. I’d laugh if your habitual intellectual dishonest weren’t so infuriating.

[Broomstick]

EDIT: survivable without major frostbite, low levels of frost-bite can be recovered from quickly and without damage or pain.

The hell you say.

Yes, you can recover from "low levels" of frostbite without permanent damage, but it's painful as hell. (Speaking from experience, unfortunately)

While that's true, pain is such a subjective thing in people. There is no way to predict how different people will respond to the same stimuli that should produce the same pain.

As a general rule, the people I've seen/known suffering from frostbite are generally groaning, crying, sobbing, and otherwise indicating that it's more than just a mild thing.

Having your fingers go numb, or get that painful tingle from spasming blood vessels constricting from cold is not frostbite.

Let me tell what frost bite feels like. Turn on a stove burner. Slam your hand down on it. That's what frostbite feels like, and the damage is very similar to that of a burn because the tissue damage is similar, despite being caused by cold instead of heat. And no fair pulling your hand away.

[ThatGuyFromThatPlace]

'ThatIdiotFromThatPlace'

That would have far too kind to a dishonest shit eating butt maggot like you.

your mistake then.

No, the page you linked clearly asks the question "How do you survive the -110 celsius cold?" and then goes on to explain about spending 1-3 minutes in 'the cold room' with no further mention of explicit temperatures involved. Implicitness in not to be confused with explicitness.

Ok, I need a little help from the audience of this little debate (if there is any). Did anyone (apart TGFTP) upon reading the page I linked to not understand that temperature of the cold room is -110 Cº?

maybe I was too kind, you shoudl probably also look up implicate.
[qoute]

That's better, though you've still only come up with one other spa that uses the treatment (Further research has turned up one or two spas that *may* use the treatment but their websites are only available in languages I can't read) .

Do you really belief that there would be a single spa in the world offering such services if the consequences of exposure to these temperatures were anything akin you're wild and far out claims?
[/quote] do you even know the dangers of regular hot spas? Let alone some of the even more questionable activities taken by mroe than a few spas int he recent past? ( I imagine you can still find Botox house calls available from some spas in Southern California, administered by honest-to-goodness interns, there was a big to-do after a few people died, as if that's ever stopped the rich and famous from getting what they want)
Also, marketing.

The aquacity link provides some nice claims, though the claimed temperature varies (video says -138 IIRC, page says -120) an 'acclimation chamber' is an interesting variation none of the other links have (though images on the Hakiko page support that they might have them as well) and the heavy insulation and air-lock style doors could easily support low-pressure environments (though not stated anywhere on the pages) which would prevent heat transfer.

Or the rooms are insulated because they are extremely cold. Post proof of low pressure rooms or stop bringing them up all the time, dimwit.

As I've said in pretty much every post so far, the spas don't say anything about low-pressure environments, or really any other safety-precautions that aren't immediately obvious again, marketing, or do you believe that you can buy pills over the phone that will let you lose 50 pounds without exercising or watching what you eat and have no or mild side-effects. Be honest now, have you bought any 'herbal male enhancers'? Because those claims are about as realistic as an extended. non-fatal stay in sub -100C temps without basic safety precautions, some of which I outlined as a purely theoretical exercise. One mentioned on the Aquacity site after some further review is pretty interesting, apparently, before enetering the cryo-chamber, you are wiped down so residual moisture doesn't freeze to your skin. While the chamber int he video seems to be full of water-vapor, which would have trouble forming in -100C temps. I'll give it the benefit of the doubt though, could be any-number of other chemical vapors, maybe to reduce the heat transmission capabilities of air in the chamber.

Despite the acclimation chambers, transition to low extreme low temperatures seems to be quick, which would prevent formation of ice-crystals and other nasties associated with low temperatures and also gives the body/skin temperature less time to drop.

If you are asserting that the formation of these ice crystals is what causes the near instantaneous frostbites and death within seconds you spoke of post proof of it already or concede.

Are you really that ignorant of this debate? Ice crystals forming in tissue is the fucking definition of frostbite, grab a dictionary you ignorant cunt.

A controlled environment simply means that measures are taken to minimize heat transfer, I.E. low pressure environments, people positioned and instructed for minimal heat transfer, quick transitions etc.

Where in the pages I’ve linked do they speak low pressure environments, special positions or instructions on how to minimize heat transfer? No where, that’s where. Hell the girls in that video just walked around, like the treatment description said. You are just pulling all of this shit out of your ignorant lying little ass, yet again.

'videos' also show pictures of obese women losing a uhndred pounds in a month and transforming into beautiful models with no excess skin at all and no ill effects. DO you know what the pressure was in the cryochamber? do you have any proof other than an pleasant voice-over that the temperature int he chamber was actually -110C? This isn't debating some blockbuster where we more-or-less assume what's we're led to believe is happening is the truth for purposes of debate. This is the real world where people use video and print as a medium to actively deceive you into buying bullshit alternative treatments I'll provide proof of special instruction etc. the fucking instant you provide proof that these people are trying to do anything but scam the jet-setting spa crowd out of more money than they lose to regular spas.

hands, feet, and faces are covered, minimizing the greatest frost-bite threats, and I already mentioned the quick transition to temperature.

Gee, did you figure that all by you’re self or did you read from the links I provided… what a genius you are. Oh, and you did claim that at -100 Cº any exposed skin would be nearly instantly frostbitten. What about all the areas of the body you did list, shouldn’t those be effected?

Do you not understand anything I'm trying to say? If these people are actually doing what they say they're doing, there are a million and one safety procedures not present in their press that are designed to prevent injury and death, some of these precautions may include the things I've already mentioned, the point is, their advertisements are not the whole truth, or even nothing but the truth, in reality I imagine (though can't be sure) that they are in fact everything but the truth. That is the nature of advertising.

also, look up 'hyperbole' sometime.

Oh, please, All you’re furious dodging, lying and eveding isn’t going to change that fact that you posted those claims, now stand by them like a man or concede, don’t backpedal like a little rat. No reasonable (or semi-reasonable) interpretation of your previous wild claims, hyperbole or not, could be reconciled with reality.

And let's be honest, there was no hyperbole in your first post in this thread. The dead before hitting the ground in your second post I can accept, but near instantaneous frostbites and death within a scant few seconds in the first one I ain't buying. You clearly meant that post to be informative.

If you won't buy hyperbole, then I'll make this clear, You probably would not die in seconds from temperatures below -100C, unless safety precautions are taken, you will suffer near instant frostbite to the ears, nose, fingers, toes etc. and frostbite to any other exposed skin a small number of seconds later. There it is, no hyperbole.

According to the National Weather Service, temperatures as high as -37C can produce frostbite in ~five minutes.
A variety of sources average/comfortable human skin temperature (the temperature of the body to a depth of ~3mm) is ~34-37C, while your 'Cryochambers' reportedly reduce skin-temperature to ~2C, cold enough that the core body temperature is going to be rapidly hypothermic unless some other method of preventing heat transfer is available than is specified.

You lying little weasel! When I asked for proof for you’re wild claims I was talking about your asinine assertions of near instantaneous frostbites and death within a scant few seconds. And all succeed in posting is proof of frost bites occurring within five minutes and some blather about ”comfortable skin temperatures”. Christ you are so fucking dishonest evasive little weasel that it is actually sickening.

You fucking ignorant little shit, you find information that explicitly states how quickly you will suffer frostbite at temperatures that don't even exist naturally on this planet, the best information I could find on short notice was from the National Whether service regarding more sensible temperatures, extrapolation (and some math, since the second link gives information on skins heat conductivity and what not) says that at those much lower temperatures, frostbite sets in much quicker (who would have thought)

Also, any ignorant pond scum that's ever taken high-school physics could tell you that to drop the skin temperature by ~32C (from 34C-2C as claimed by your link, assuming that the skin has a rough volume of 8Liters and similar thermal properties to water) you'd be transferring plenty of heat to drop the temperature of a person ~3.2C (Assuming the rough volume of a person to be 80Liters, and that people have similar thermal properties to water)

that puts you deep into stage 2 hypothermia, extremities are turning blue and you've lost muscle control. Sound very 'safe' to you?

If the marketing lingo is to be believed (to the extent of the temperatures and lack of safety procedures involved) these things are very dangerous and easily deadly, either somebody is lying (have you looked up hyperbole yet?) or omissions as to the extent of safety procedures are being made (in either case, sounds suspiciously like 'marketing' to me, not facts).

So all websites I’ve linked to a grossly misrepresenting and flat out lying about their services and products… and I'm supposed to accept this just because you’re lying ignorant puss seeping ass says so. I’d laugh if your habitual intellectual dishonest weren’t so infuriating.

what part of marketing don't you understand? or are all people angelic saints who would never lie to your obviously intelligent and discerning self, especially not to make a quick buck? Did you completely miss the recent thread on 'natural bottled spring water' actually being tap water sold at a ridiculous mark-up despite federal regulations ot the contrary? And that was from several big companies that had already been chastised for that sort of behavior before. But no, little spas catering to trophy-wives and children born with silver-spoons up their asses would never stoop to such low tactics would they? And the tooth fairy leaves a dollar under your pillow and the easter bunny lays eggs full of candy and just fucking grow up already, you'll have to stop living with your parents some day (well, not need per se, I suppose) might as well figure out how the world works now. Even if the companies involved aren't out-right lying about every facet of their operation, they are at least omitting what safety precautions being taken. If you prefer, believe that, these companies are hardly required to be forthright about how they go about securing their customers' lives in their promotional material.[/i]

[Spin Echo]

what part of marketing don't you understand? or are all people angelic saints who would never lie to your obviously intelligent and discerning self, especially not to make a quick buck? Did you completely miss the recent thread on 'natural bottled spring water' actually being tap water sold at a ridiculous mark-up despite federal regulations ot the contrary? And that was from several big companies that had already been chastised for that sort of behavior before. But no, little spas catering to trophy-wives and children born with silver-spoons up their asses would never stoop to such low tactics would they? And the tooth fairy leaves a dollar under your pillow and the easter bunny lays eggs full of candy and just fucking grow up already, you'll have to stop living with your parents some day (well, not need per se, I suppose) might as well figure out how the world works now. Even if the companies involved aren't out-right lying about every facet of their operation, they are at least omitting what safety precautions being taken. If you prefer, believe that, these companies are hardly required to be forthright about how they go about securing their customers' lives in their promotional material.[/i]

Considering these spas came into being from research back in the 80's and 90's about the short term benefits of whole body cryotherapy to rheumatoid arthritis, I don't think they are blowing smoke up people's arses.

I highly doubt the scientific studies were making up the fact the experiments were done at -105C.

[ThatGuyFromThatPlace]

that doesn't alter the fact that they almost certainly aren't advertising the extent of safety precautions being taken.

[Sir Sirius]

maybe I was too kind, you shoudl probably also look up implicate.

Oh, for pete’s sake give up already. Anyone not totaly brain dead understood that page.

do you even know the dangers of regular hot spas? Let alone some of the even more questionable activities taken by mroe than a few spas int he recent past? ( I imagine you can still find Botox house calls available from some spas in Southern California, administered by honest-to-goodness interns, there was a big to-do after a few people died, as if that's ever stopped the rich and famous from getting what they want)
Also, marketing.

Are you really claiming that these spas are offering a service that causes near instantaneous frostbites and kills people in seconds? Christ, I’d figured that you were a loon, but jesus.

As I've said in pretty much every post so far, the spas don't say anything about low-pressure environments, or really any other safety-precautions that aren't immediately obvious again, marketing, or do you believe that you can buy pills over the phone that will let you lose 50 pounds without exercising or watching what you eat and have no or mild side-effects. Be honest now, have you bought any 'herbal male enhancers'?

I’m seeing idle blather and chatter… but once again no evidence of the dishonesty of the spas. Oh, evidence whare are you?

…Because those claims are about as realistic as an extended. non-fatal stay in sub -100C temps without basic safety precautions, some of which I outlined as a purely theoretical exercise.

Once again, post proof that these temperatures are so lethal or concede the point.

One mentioned on the Aquacity site after some further review is pretty interesting, apparently, before enetering the cryo-chamber, you are wiped down so residual moisture doesn't freeze to your skin. While the chamber int he video seems to be full of water-vapor, which would have trouble forming in -100C temps. I'll give it the benefit of the doubt though, could be any-number of other chemical vapors, maybe to reduce the heat transmission capabilities of air in the chamber.

Is there an argument or evidence in there? I can’t see either.

If you are asserting that the formation of these ice crystals is what causes the near instantaneous frostbites and death within seconds you spoke of post proof of it already or concede.

Are you really that ignorant of this debate? Ice crystals forming in tissue is the fucking definition of frostbite, grab a dictionary you ignorant cunt.

Highlighting the relevant sections for the benefit of the habitually evasive. You've claimed near instantaneous frostbites, not just any old frostbites.

'videos' also show pictures of obese women losing a uhndred pounds in a month and transforming into beautiful models with no excess skin at all and no ill effects.

Again, post proof that the spas are cryochamber manufacturers are blatantly lying about that products and service or concede.

DO you know what the pressure was in the cryochamber?

You made the claim of low pressure chambers, you present the evidence for it or concede the point.

do you have any proof other than an pleasant voice-over that the temperature int he chamber was actually -110C?

Uh, repeated mentions of the temperature and similar, even colder, temperatures on several websites… duh. You really are an evasive little rat aren’t you.

This isn't debating some blockbuster where we more-or-less assume what's we're led to believe is happening is the truth for purposes of debate. This is the real world where people use video and print as a medium to actively deceive you into buying bullshit alternative treatments I'll provide proof of special instruction etc. the fucking instant you provide proof that these people are trying to do anything but scam the jet-setting spa crowd out of more money than they lose to regular spas.

Again, post proof that the spas and cryochamber manufacturers are flat out lying about that products and service or concede. Deja vu, here.

Do you not understand anything I'm trying to say? If these people are actually doing what they say they're doing, there are a million and one safety procedures not present in their press that are designed to prevent injury and death, some of these precautions may include the things I've already mentioned, the point is, their advertisements are not the whole truth, or even nothing but the truth, in reality I imagine (though can't be sure) that they are in fact everything but the truth. That is the nature of advertising.

For the umpteenth fucking time POST PROOF OF THESE OTHER PROTECTIVE MEASURE OR CONCEDE THE POINT!

If you won't buy hyperbole, then I'll make this clear, You probably would not die in seconds from temperatures below -100C, unless safety precautions are taken, you will suffer near instant frostbite to the ears, nose, fingers, toes etc. and frostbite to any other exposed skin a small number of seconds later. There it is, no hyperbole.

Excellent back-pedalling. Now post proof for these revised claims of yours.

You fucking ignorant little shit, you find information that explicitly states how quickly you will suffer frostbite at temperatures that don't even exist naturally on this planet, the best information I could find on short notice was from the National Whether service regarding more sensible temperatures, extrapolation (and some math, since the second link gives information on skins heat conductivity and what not) says that at those much lower temperatures, frostbite sets in much quicker (who would have thought)

NO! You lying fuck! You made the claim, you find the evidence! Or am I to take that as concession that the evidence for your wild assed claims is not forth coming? Wow, what a surprise.

Also, any ignorant pond scum that's ever taken high-school physics could tell you that to drop the skin temperature by ~32C (from 34C-2C as claimed by your link, assuming that the skin has a rough volume of 8Liters and similar thermal properties to water) you'd be transferring plenty of heat to drop the temperature of a person ~3.2C (Assuming the rough volume of a person to be 80Liters, and that people have similar thermal properties to water)

that puts you deep into stage 2 hypothermia, extremities are turning blue and you've lost muscle control. Sound very 'safe' to you?

The page I linked to mentioning the drop in skin temperature says: ”In such a short exposure the body maintains its normal temperature. Only the surface temperature of the skin drops down to +3..+4 degrees during the cryo-session.”

Surface temperature, not the temperature of the whole skin. Trying again cunt rag.

what part of marketing don't you understand? or are all people angelic saints who would never lie to your obviously intelligent and discerning self, especially not to make a quick buck? Did you completely miss the recent thread on 'natural bottled spring water' actually being tap water sold at a ridiculous mark-up despite federal regulations ot the contrary? And that was from several big companies that had already been chastised for that sort of behavior before.

Oh, please. In order for the water bottle scheme to be analogous to your wild assed claims of the practices of these spas the water companies should have been selling bottled cyanide.

But no, little spas catering to trophy-wives and children born with silver-spoons up their asses would never stoop to such low tactics would they? And the tooth fairy leaves a dollar under your pillow and the easter bunny lays eggs full of candy and just fucking grow up already, you'll have to stop living with your parents some day (well, not need per se, I suppose) might as well figure out how the world works now. Even if the companies involved aren't out-right lying about every facet of their operation, they are at least omitting what safety precautions being taken. If you prefer, believe that, these companies are hardly required to be forthright about how they go about securing their customers' lives in their promotional material.

Blather, blather blather… no evidence in sight. I am not impressed

ThatGuyFromThatPlace post proof:

1. That these spas and cryochamber manufacturers are blatantly lying about their services and products.
2. That safety precautions other then those mentioned are used.
3. That temperatures of –100 Cº and below have the effects you claim and are as dangerous as you claim.

You’ve repeatedly made all of these claims, now back them up with evidence or concede the points. And I remind you that this forums has rules regarding claims and evidence (see DR6 of the Board Policy).

[ThatGuyFromThatPlace]

pay some fucking attention, I provided proof of near instant frostbite and your own fucking video link proves the temperatures aren't as cold as stated given the presence of water vapor. And your own fucking link again shows that at the temperatures present so is advanced hypothermia, somebody is lying here and I don't think it's NOAA or the CDC
Medically, the surface temperature of the skin is defined as the temperature of the surface 4-5mm.

There's rules about ignoring posted evidence too, and you still haven't posted proof that the spas aren't lying, just because a few websites tell you things doesn't mean they're telling the truth, do you have any neutral third-party proofs of the temperature in those chambers? I could post links to wait loss drugs all day long but there wouldn't be any more truth to them for the repetition you broken record, unfavorable ruling fuck, Ive got just as much evidence as you, only mine comes from reputable sources.