those JW's

[Alyrium Denryle]

Luckily I dont have JWs at my door. I have something far worse...Mormons

What i do is i turn thier arguments back on them. I tell them iam a gay athiest, they say "well that is not what will make you happy" I return by asking "who are you to determine what will or will not make me happy"

I then invite them in and get into theological discussions with them using my pre-prepared "mormon notes" gathered from this very site and http://www.religioustolerance.org/homosexu.htm

They leave very quickly.

With JWs I would do the same thing.

[Mr Bean]

Has somone already made somthing like that
A place-card of Caned arrgments VS Morons and JWs?

I'd buy it/Us it

Heck they have them to get in and paplets handed out we should to

(After all they are opposed to rethinking, because as Religion stats, Facts are bad, thinking is bad, you will be assimilated)

[Alyrium Denryle]

Has anyone ever read one of those Chick tracts the Babtists hand out? Those are funny. Here is one on-line for youhttp://www1.lunarpages.com/darkdungeons/page3.html

[BenRG]

The point is not whether you're doing the right thing or not. The point is that your first question should be: "Do you want to learn about us?" and when told no shrug your shoulders and mentally confine us to whatever oblivon or hell you might assume we're destined for, and leave us well enough alone.

I suppose that some people think that we should. The problem is that we have this guilt thing that makes us think that maybe we have a responsibility to help others learn what has made our lives better.

Yes, I know that you are going to say: "Aha! You think that you guys are the best and you have to make everyone else join your religion!" Well, you are partly correct. All religions generally teach that they are the one true faith. Come to think of it, a lot of scientific theories do too, and it often takes the most amazing of efforts to turn that around (Pasteur and bacteria comes to mind). We just admit it.

Seriously, we go nowhere that we are unwelcome. If you don't want us there, then you should stop feeding us lines to take up (probably in an attempt to have a witty exit line). Being human, we tend to jump on slurs and slanders in an attempt to defend ourselves. Also... well we believe strongly enough that we want to help people desperately. From our interpretation of history and prophecy, the ship is sinking and we are telling people to get the life boats.

Now, I have a suggestion. If everyone stops generally treating those with religious faiths of any kind as second-class citizens on this board, I will be glad to let this thread drop. Personally, I have a very low abuse threshold (which is amazing, given my chosen faith). I have no desire to be flamed because others hate my faith and the work that I believe that God has commanded me to carry out. However, I would be grateful if people could stop spewing comments like 'brainwashing' around when I can guarantee that no such thing happens.

That descirption in a post above about one of our meetings using brow-beating and peer pressure? Didn't recognise the description as one of our friendly (and often slightly informal) meetings. I won't use the 'L' word.

[Mr Bean]

I find you more and more funny every time you post

Lets tear apart the lastest post eh? See if we can break through that mental barrier aginst indepdnat thinking.

I will go top to bottom but first I have to share this one..

Seriously, we go nowhere that we are unwelcome

ROTFLMAO! This is the second time I have read somthing on this board that has made my nearly choke from laughing, The First was from David but anyway.
So where is the new JW Headquaters Located
The Moon?
Because I can't think of any place thats JW tollerant. New York Stands as a prime Anti-JW example Hotels have denined them convetion space before and succesfuly defended it as the fact that New York JW are famous for camping out in buildings if you let them in. They even inculded it in Seinfied for bob sake where Krammer invites some in and they spend the rest of the show trying to get them out

Now then to rip into the Post Paragraph by Paragraph

I suppose that some people think that we should. The problem is that we have this guilt thing that makes us think that maybe we have a responsibility to help others learn what has made our lives better

Guilt? Aha! We get to the heart of the matter quickly. You have the stated belif that your veiws are the correct ones and we are all in need of your help
While this may seem fine on the sufrace its the fact that when you add in JW Wiether you like it or not that the main problems arise

Yes, I know that you are going to say: "Aha! You think that you guys are the best and you have to make everyone else join your religion!" Well, you are partly correct. All religions generally teach that they are the one true faith. Come to think of it, a lot of scientific theories do too, and it often takes the most amazing of efforts to turn that around (Pasteur and bacteria comes to mind). We just admit it.

Two things the first is that three of the top five major religions do not state they are the only Correct one. Islam belives that they are the FINAL perfect copy thats not to say the others did not quite get it right, Hudisim and Buddism both have indivudal freedom and seeking your own path on the top three of important things to thier religion
And second I must stress this

All religions generally teach that they are the one true faith. Come to think of it, a lot of scientific theories do too

Say it with me Fokes
Bullshit You sir have no idea how Science Works. Nothing in Science is definite, Things become laws simply because they stand up to hundreds of years of people trying to prove them wrong, There are no absoultes in Science, There are no definates, By its very Deffintion a Theroy is and EDUCATED GUESS!
You sir have no idea how Science works and PLEASE don't pretend you do, Statments such as this mearly revile not only your laymancy but you idiociy as well!

If you don't want us there, then you should stop feeding us lines to take up (probably in an attempt to have a witty exit line). Being human, we tend to jump on slurs and slanders in an attempt to defend ourselves. Also... well we believe strongly enough that we want to help people desperately. From our interpretation of history and prophecy, the ship is sinking and we are telling people to get the life boats.

Reiligons trripe mearly interjection his views into this debate and providing some obvious things
IE people don't like being called dumbass's
The last line is realy the only important one, We thing the worlds gonna end, Repent with us or burn sums it up nicely

Now, I have a suggestion. If everyone stops generally treating those with religious faiths of any kind as second-class citizens on this board, I will be glad to let this thread drop. Personally, I have a very low abuse threshold (which is amazing, given my chosen faith). I have no desire to be flamed because others hate my faith and the work that I believe that God has commanded me to carry out. However, I would be grateful if people could stop spewing comments like 'brainwashing' around when I can guarantee that no such thing happens .

First I object in the STRONGEST to your suggestion that ANY of us treat people less depending on thier religious beliefs(Note I said less not diffrent) Second most people don't disliek your faith its the prestation they have such huge problems with
Third Brainwashing is a vaild religious tatic and JWs have been assocated with it and minor reiligons have often used it(Called Cults by the media) for its a vaild tatic when personal faith does not suffice mental intimdation and mood altering druges will suffice. Not that I've seen any drug use by JWs simply the Former

That descirption in a post above about one of our meetings using brow-beating and peer pressure? Didn't recognise the description as one of our friendly (and often slightly informal) meetings. I won't use the 'L' word.

The L Word? Lie? A good choice I consider one of my good traites besides self awarness is my scrupuluss honsetly

The case in question was a dare from an old friend who was a Pscyhology proffeser asked me to go to one and take notes and afterwords identify which and what mental tricks they where using to try and get me to join, I was there for roughly 72 mintues twenty of which was devoted to new memebers( I was not the only new person there) in a temple located in downtown Chicaco where exactly I don't know(I was not the one driving)

Well theres another post ripped apart lets see if you can acutal defend yourself the next time

[BenRG]

I find you more and more funny every time you post

Lets tear apart the lastest post eh? See if we can break through that mental barrier aginst indepdnat thinking.

I will go top to bottom but first I have to share this one..

quote"Seriously, we go nowhere that we are unwelcome"

ROTFLMAO! This is the second time I have read somthing on this board that has made my nearly choke from laughing, The First was from David but anyway.
So where is the new JW Headquaters Located
The Moon?
Because I can't think of any place thats JW tollerant.

This was the only bit that sounded like halfway-rational thinking, and I had to reply.

Where is our world HQ?

New York... Well, Brooklyn, actually. The main office with its' logo "Read God's Word The Holy Bible Daily" is practically a city landmark.

Lots of people like having our conventions in their hotels and stadiums as we keep things nice and clean.

It is clear that your particular objection is that we don't keep our faith to ourselves, but insist on letting other people know that we think we have found a better way. Bad us.

About the scientific theory being an educated guess? I actually agree. Especially with difficult sciences like cosmology, where you are frequently dealing with events that are both very far away and long, long ago. Oh, and there might be subtle differences in the laws of physics too. However, given the absoloutist and almost... religious attitude of some scientists, you would think that their ideas were the Holy Writ itself.

I do know a little about science, actually. I read and loved "The Elegant Universe" and "Darwin's Black Box".

No more replies from me on this exhausted thread. I shouldn't have replied in the first place, but the horrible and rather hateful attitude being shown towards people whose only crime (if a crime it be) is to live by their faith had to have some kind of response.

People's perception of us is of a brainwashed cult, even though we are nothing of the kind (no charismatic human leader, no physical seperation from the rest of society and... yes, you guessed it... no brainwashing). Because of this, nothing I could say would gain your respect or convince you that we should be tolerated.

Yes, you are going to say that, because of our preaching work, we don't deserve tolerance. You see, that proves my point.

Bye now.

[Mr Bean]

New York... Well, Brooklyn, actually. The main office with its' logo "Read God's Word The Holy Bible Daily" is practically a city landmark.

Never been and thats not always been true at least from what I can find on the web
Give me a few days and I'll see if I can dig in when your headquaters moved in and how much of an uproar it caused

Lots of people like having our conventions in their hotels and stadiums as we keep things nice and clean.

Lots of people don't. Sorry for the Commparson but lots of people thought Hitler was a nice fine gentelmen and his policys where a good idea
Others.....
Well you know the rest

It is clear that your particular objection is that we don't keep our faith to ourselves, but insist on letting other people know that we think we have found a better way. Bad us.

The fact you think you've found a better way and a pre-law student could prove otherwise is the problem silly you

About the scientific theory being an educated guess? I actually agree. Especially with difficult sciences like cosmology, where you are frequently dealing with events that are both very far away and long, long ago. Oh, and there might be subtle differences in the laws of physics too. However, given the absoloutist and almost... religious attitude of some scientists, you would think that their ideas were the Holy Writ itself.

Cosmology intresting choice because its one of those nasty sciences that as a side course disprove creation through Divine means. Odd Choice for a Comprason. As for you second part abourt Religous Scientists
People get set in there ways, can't help it however thats a problem of idioits coming back into play. And Arrgoence, Very Arrogent people Scientists are(And sometimes for good reasons, if they want to think they got it exactly right? Let em at least till you can disprove them)

I do know a little about science, actually. I read and loved "The Elegant Universe" and "Darwin's Black Box".

Your comments say otherwise inculding your contiued attemps to link Religion with Science in a not quite Sutble way of say Science is just another Religion.

No more replies from me on this exhausted thread. I shouldn't have replied in the first place, but the horrible and rather hateful attitude being shown towards people whose only crime (if a crime it be) is to live by their faith had to have some kind of response.

Hateful? There have yet to be one truely hateful comment directed at you or your religion. Your crime is for lack of saying it any better. Is being an idiotc, Claming knowledge of that which you do not and try to pass it off as otherwise are your crimes
That and joing a religion with lots of annoying people

People's perception of us is of a brainwashed cult, even though we are nothing of the kind (no charismatic human leader, no physical seperation from the rest of society and... yes, you guessed it... no brainwashing). Because of this, nothing I could say would gain your respect or convince you that we should be tolerated.

There is no list of things to do before you can claim brainwashed Cult, You can be brainwashed and not be in a cult. You can be Charismatic and not be in a cult, You can be Phyicsly seperated and not in a cult.
And second there are quite a few things that you could say that would gain our respect and conive us to tolerate you, You however are so stuck in your mind-set not to see the blinding light of obvious right in front of you.
Your methods of gaining respect and tolerance have been laid out in front of you in this very thread
Do you have the witt to see them?
Or are you SO stuck in your poor me boo hoo rut not to see whats just beyond your own nose!


~The Enigmatic Mr Bean

[Iceberg]

From personal experience, it has been sufficient to inform the Jehovah's Witnesses of being a practising Roman Catholic. For some reason, those who have been informed of this fact have suddenly lost interest in attempting conversion and politely excused themselves.

Another great way to get rid of them in a hurry is to come to the door innocently holding a chef's knife that has small bits of hacked-up beef clinging to it. For some reason, that seems to get rid of 'em in a hurry... especially when you accidentally spilled the meat-juice-laden butcher tray on your apron.

[Lagmonster]

Seriously, we go nowhere that we are unwelcome. If you don't want us there, then you should stop feeding us lines to take up (probably in an attempt to have a witty exit line). Being human, we tend to jump on slurs and slanders in an attempt to defend ourselves. Also... well we believe strongly enough that we want to help people desperately. From our interpretation of history and prophecy, the ship is sinking and we are telling people to get the life boats.

Fine, fine, fine. So you put yourselves in a position of possibly being mistreated by people that, in your opinion, don't know any better? While that sounds somewhat akin to a form of egotistical martyrdom, it's obvious we are going to disagree on whether your brand of help is necessary (for a multitude of reasons that are not relevant to my point). So, let me ask you this: What do you say to those members of your faith, like the kind that I deal with on regular occasions, who cross any reasonable boundaries of 'we want to teach you our faith' and stomp into the territory of 'you will listen to us, now, RIGHT now, and asking us to leave makes us more insistant to the point of telling you that you aren't listening because you don't know anything about the real world, and all this regardless of whether you have gone through all the steps from polite dismissal to vehment mentioning of the fact that you have a dinner party arriving in ten minutes and no, we will not bloody well be here to talk to them, even though we know we will, and will then wander around to the side of your house and tap on your dining room patio door until you close the blinds and frankly get your guests a tad worried that we are going to do something unexpected or rash.' (over-winded, but an excellent example of the singular experience that caused me to ban them from my doorstep forever).

Basically, I was originally stating that any good idea, given to enough people, will eventually find its way into the mind of someone who, despite all the moral lessons in the world, is not a nice person. My question, in a more concise form, is what do you say to people who cross that line, in your own faith? Or do you believe that all JW's are doing the right thing, regardless of how efficiently they alienate the people they talk to?

[Graeme Dice]

If they bring a child with them inform them that you believe it is child abuse to do so.

[Alyrium Denryle]

From birth religious indoctrination IS brainwashing. Brainwashing is simply telling someone that something is true without contradictions long enough that they believe it. Now you can speed up the process by torturing them and breaking thier will. However bringing a child to church fom the day they are born to the day they leave the house is brainwashing.

[Darth Wong]

Alternate approach: tell them that you would love to sit down and talk with them about their religious beliefs, with just two conditions:

• They give you their home address and telephone number so that you can bother them at their home instead of yours.
• You reserve the right to show up at any time, day or night, any day of the week, without any warning whatsoever, and expect them to be cordial.

And of course, if they say no, you get to accuse them of being "intolerant".

[LordChaos]

How can you not be interested in something you probably know next-to-nothing about?

The same way I'm not interested in anything anyone tries to sell me over the phone. I am an informed consumer. If I want something, I will contact you. Otherwise, you are invading my privacy univited. If I say "I'm not interested", I AM NOT INTERESTED. Not "I don't know, and I just want you to leave me allone" but "I have zero interest in anything you could possibly have to say".

I dare you to take that approach with me. It's called harrasment, and tends to net the plantiff a tidy sum.

Alternately, I could do just like I normaly do. Slam the door in your face before you finish the first sentence. but I think I'll start the filling harrasment charges... it's soo much more entertaining.

[Darth Wong]

Now, I have a suggestion. If everyone stops generally treating those with religious faiths of any kind as second-class citizens on this board, I will be glad to let this thread drop. Personally, I have a very low abuse threshold (which is amazing, given my chosen faith).

Oh goody. Now you're trotting out the "we're so persecuted" bullshit. Stop bothering people in their homes, and they'll stop accusing you of being an asshole. Do you see me disrupting a Jehovah's Witness service and distributing explicit pornography? Of course not, because while Jehovah's Witnesses have sworn allegiance to a moronic belief system, I still respect their right to do so without badgering in their own homes or places of worship, and without having unwanted materials which offend them being shoved in their faces. Unfortunately, they refuse to extend the same courtesy to everyone else.

Please drop this fucking persecution complex. You aren't being treated as a "second-class citizen on this board" (a complaint that many JW's have probably made on many boards around the world). Your rights are exactly the same as every other board member's rights. However, those other board members have freedom of speech, which means that they can tell you exactly what they think of your belief system and its rude, intrusive marketing practices. Deal with it.

I have no desire to be flamed because others hate my faith and the work that I believe that God has commanded me to carry out.

You're not being flamed because others hate your faith. Hatred implies a desire to cause harm, and no one is talking about harming your institutions or you. You are being flamed because you proudly confess to acting like an asshole, ie- bothering people in their own homes with your intrusive marketing campaign. You are being flamed for the same reason that a telemarketing or mass E-mailing executive would get his ass flamed off in these same forums.

However, I would be grateful if people could stop spewing comments like 'brainwashing' around when I can guarantee that no such thing happens. That descirption in a post above about one of our meetings using brow-beating and peer pressure? Didn't recognise the description as one of our friendly (and often slightly informal) meetings. I won't use the 'L' word.

You don't recognize the brow-beating because you don't step out of line. That's the whole point of Pavlovian conditioning; everyone loves you if you're a good little JW, and you don't receive the brow-beating and peer pressure unless you do something naughty. When you do, you're made to feel as if it's your fault for being a sinner, and not their fault for being the Thought Police.

I've been to a JW "meeting". Everybody agrees. Nobody challenges the status quo. Nobody questions the answers which are spoon-fed down every participant's mouth. They give you the text, they give you the "proper" interpretations of that text, they give you questions to be asked regarding the text, and they give you the "correct" answers for those questions, all in a handy little pamphlet. Then, they walk around asking the questions for which they have so thoughtfully provided answers, and each person recites the canned answer to the delight and approval of the crowd. All in attendance reward the test subject, er ... friend with positive reinforcement, er ... praise and love. It is a classic example of a Pavlovian conditioning session. In fact, it is exactly the same way you train a dog: direct his actions so that his choices are all made for him, and then praise him when he follows through.

That is not a "meeting"; that is an indoctrination session. If you don't hold the proper beliefs, you're out. Shunned. And since the group holds your entire family in its sway, no child has the courage to make that choice. It is brainwashing in every conceivable sense of the word. And when a curious visitor tries to leave at the end of a service, a succession of people literally block his exit, standing between him and the door in succession to confront him with canned recruiting lines and the sort of ultra high-pressure sales tactics that would provoke a punch in the face at a Circuit City. My wife and I went when she was researching religious cults in university, and she said she was never happier to finally escape a building in her life.

[Emperor Norton II]

There was a whole flock of JW wandering aimlessly through my neighborhood this evening. As I drove up the block I was attempting not to make eye contact with them. No luck on that score, they saw me and tried to ambush me between the car and the front door. All I wanted to do was make diner and drink a beer with the neighbors. Thanks to a large but arthritic Rotwiler I was able to beet a retreat before they got to me.

Moral of this story, it helps if you neighbors large, noisy, free-range puppies...

Just thought I would share this story since it happened tonight.

[Anarchist Bunny]

Just a few ideas from the disturbed one that I am.

Answer the door in full S and M gear.

Answer the door with HIEL HITLER and clearly have a swasitka on your clothing.

Try to give them Mormon pamplets.

Fill a carcoal lighter bottle up with water, answer the door with spraying at their feet and then throw a match.

Tell them your not interested but your imaginary friend is so you'll go backup stairs and they can finish talking to him on the porch.

Answer the door then have a loved one set off the fire alarm, close the door and don't come back.

Accually kill them.

Answer the door in full jedi dress and try to convince them the ways of the force.

Answer the door dressed like a trek character, try to defend that it's an offical religon.

Invite them to join you on the pentigram drawn in red of you floor surrounded by candles.

Don't answer. Follow them home. Come to their door and preach to them the JW ways, if they say that they already are a JW, say you don't believe them and continue preaching.

[Mr Bean]

Try to give them Mormon pamplets.

Acutal this one is brillant!
I'm going down to the local Mormon meeting hall to pick up a bunch of pamplets for this very Purpose!

Try and convert you?
Covert them back!
Bonus points if they run screaming
Triple points if you acutal convert them

[David]

Answer the door dressed like a trek character, try to defend that it's an offical religon.

There are people at sb that might take you up on that.[/quote]

[Anarchist Bunny]

Or you could always just us the Lil' Bastard Brainwashing Kit and try to straighten them out.


PO(TIEHJL:TKSDDDDDDKFKFKFKFKFKFKFKFKFKFsdfaaajk;zds

[LordChaos]

Triple points if you acutal convert them

My dad actualy did that once.....

[Lagmonster]

My boss has the highly unpleasant misfortune of having a mother who became a JW. A co-worker of mine married into the cult. Both my boss and the co-worker humour their family, but do not believe in the tenets of the religion. Both seem to be torn between 'let men worship what gods they will' and 'whack the twit in the head'.

The interesting bit here is a statement my boss made, where she said she felt she had to 'save' her mother from her blind faith. She was vastly uncomfortable because her desire to help her mom shed her irrational beliefs was akin in passion and self-righteousness to her mother when she tried to 'save' her daughter from her lack of faith.

My advice to her amounted to wondering why they couldn't have a relationship that left religion out, like many people can, until I realized that the principles of most western religions - and JW's in particular - are almost unanimously against religious apathy.

And THAT, friends, is what I find particularly horrific. Imagine encountering the fact that your mother or spouse - people you love and trust - are making life decisions and choices that go full in the face of what you believe in, and that their faith holds ties that you can't break, argue with, or deny without hurting the person who holds them. That they want you on their side and can't stop telling you that if you love them you'll join them. Making a child make the decision between her mother and irrational faith, or exclusion and condemnation with tales of wrath and hell.

Ever hear the old campfire ghost story that concludes with a forlorn widow taking her life because her dead husband's shade urges her to join him in a new life on the 'other side' because it's bliss, otherwise he'll haunt her forever because he can't bear to be without her - all the while mourning and feeling guilty because he is in his new otherworldly life without her, not realizing that he's the one trapped outside of life? It's fanciful, but scenarios like those remind me of that ghost story.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Try to convert them to the Dark Side of the Force.

[Anarchist Bunny]

Counter brainwash. Or frame the entire sect of JWs for ritualistic sacrafice of humans and canabilizism, your loved one will honestly have no involvement with it and thier beliefs will suddenly and painfully be revealed to them as a complete fruad.

[Anarchist Bunny]

One more way to deal with those JW(thanks to David for the idea)


God bless America... hell God bless Texas.

[LordChaos]

One more way to deal with those JW(thanks to David for the idea)


God bless America... hell God bless Texas.

Just the thing for home defense. I'll take 2.