Virus-X Debate (updated Dec 15!)

SWvST: the subject of the main site.

Moderator: Vympel

User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70027
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Postby Darth Wong » 2003-11-27 05:27pm

Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html

User avatar
Sothis
Jedi Knight
Posts: 664
Joined: 2002-07-03 06:07pm
Location: UK
Contact:

Postby Sothis » 2003-11-27 06:08pm

His reply will be.... to quote Data, 'intriguing.'
Hakuna Matata
The Forums of Sothis! http://www.1-2-free-forums.com/mf/sothis.html

User avatar
Anarchist Bunny
Foul, Cruel, and Bad-Tempered Rodent
Posts: 5458
Joined: 2002-07-12 02:08am
Contact:

Postby Anarchist Bunny » 2003-11-27 06:10pm

Darth Wong wrote:http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/Virus-X/Debate-1a.html

Enjoy.


WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

:D
//This Line Blank as of 7/15/07\\
Ornithology Subdirector: SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences
Wiilite
Image

User avatar
Anarchist Bunny
Foul, Cruel, and Bad-Tempered Rodent
Posts: 5458
Joined: 2002-07-12 02:08am
Contact:

Postby Anarchist Bunny » 2003-11-27 06:23pm

Geez, with the 390 m Rise Nickle-Iron asteroid, its not even .5 gigatons to vap it, which was not the predicted result.
//This Line Blank as of 7/15/07\\

Ornithology Subdirector: SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences

Wiilite

Image

User avatar
aerius
Charismatic Cult Leader
Posts: 13946
Joined: 2002-08-18 07:27pm
Location: YHM

Postby aerius » 2003-11-27 08:18pm

Mike wrote:Sorry, but that doesn't look like a 30 foot diameter, Junior. Like far too many single men, you obviously have a habit of exaggerating your measurements.


Comedy gold, I just about lost it when I read that line. Keep up the good work! :lol:
Image
aerius: I'll vote for you if you sleep with me. :)
Lusankya: Deal!
Say, do you want it to be a threesome with your wife? Or a foursome with your wife and sister-in-law? I'm up for either. :P

User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Postby Ghost Rider » 2003-11-27 09:04pm

Good stuff.

The saddest part is aside from a retort that will be of snide remarks of being too busy, it'll be a cut and paste job of Scooter's site.

I really wish more people would read MoO's dissection of it.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete

User avatar
Lord Poe
Sith Apprentice
Posts: 6988
Joined: 2002-07-14 03:15am
Location: Callyfornia
Contact:

Postby Lord Poe » 2003-11-27 09:09pm

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:Lord Poe, where's you get that Photorp pic?


Did a websearch. Its a vacation photo from the Trek Vegas exhibit. That torp is an actual prop from the TV shows; probably Voyager's "Ashes To Ashes"
Image

"Brian, if I parked a supertanker in Central Park, painted it neon orange, and set it on fire, it would be less obvious than your stupidity." --RedImperator

User avatar
Einhander Sn0m4n
Insane Railgunner
Posts: 18630
Joined: 2002-10-01 05:51am
Location: Louisiana... or Dagobah. You know, where Yoda lives.

Postby Einhander Sn0m4n » 2003-11-27 10:55pm

Lord Poe wrote:
Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:Lord Poe, where's you get that Photorp pic?


Did a websearch. Its a vacation photo from the Trek Vegas exhibit. That torp is an actual prop from the TV shows; probably Voyager's "Ashes To Ashes"

Oh kewl. So that means it's a completely canon and fully accurate photon torpedo model. :D
Image Image

User avatar
Einhander Sn0m4n
Insane Railgunner
Posts: 18630
Joined: 2002-10-01 05:51am
Location: Louisiana... or Dagobah. You know, where Yoda lives.

Postby Einhander Sn0m4n » 2003-11-27 11:14pm

Darth Wong wrote:http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/Virus-X/Debate-1a.html

Enjoy.

What you did to his argument reminds me of what a paper mill does to a tree: Tree Goes In, Tiny Shreds Of Something Completely Unrecognizable As Ever Having Been A Tree Comes Out. :twisted: In short, you completely destroyed him!
Image Image

User avatar
CmdrWilkens
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9092
Joined: 2002-07-06 01:24am
Location: Land of the Crabcake
Contact:

Postby CmdrWilkens » 2003-11-27 11:26pm

I think a debate tactics page needs to be drawn up with the following entry:

Standard Trekkie Debate Tactic #1: Shoot yourself in the foot with evidence that destroys your own argument.
Image
SDNet World Nation: Wilkonia

Armourer of the WARWOLVES
ASVS Vet's Association (Class of 2000)
Former C.S. Strowbridge Gold Ego Award Winner
MEMBER of the Anti-PETA Anti-Facist LEAGUE



"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. "
-Kingdom of Heaven

User avatar
Connor MacLeod
Sith Apprentice
Posts: 14057
Joined: 2002-08-01 05:03pm
Contact:

Postby Connor MacLeod » 2003-11-28 12:21am

Darth Wong wrote:http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/Virus-X/Debate-1a.html

Enjoy.


You got the Londo quote wrong. It would have fitted so much better if you'd said the entire line:

"Ah, arrogance and stupidity all in the same package. How efficient of you."

User avatar
Connor MacLeod
Sith Apprentice
Posts: 14057
Joined: 2002-08-01 05:03pm
Contact:

Postby Connor MacLeod » 2003-11-28 12:26am

CmdrWilkens wrote:I think a debate tactics page needs to be drawn up with the following entry:

Standard Trekkie Debate Tactic #1: Shoot yourself in the foot with evidence that destroys your own argument.


That's #2. #1 is "Contradict yourself by claiming not to follow suspension of disbelief, then actually act as if you are doing so, except for ignoring things which would inconvenience ou or invalidate your argument."

Clearly, Virus-X attacked SoD in order to give himself an "out" in case Mike tried to smash his arguments by pointing out the visuals aren't consistent with his pretended firepower figures (which they aren't.) Its the old "dialogue over visuals" excuse, really. He wants to have the high end firepower but does not want to be forced to adhere to the methodology required to have it.

I bet he brings up the Borg Isokinetic Mine example in his next reply :D

User avatar
The Kernel
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7438
Joined: 2003-09-17 02:31am
Location: Kweh?!
Contact:

Postby The Kernel » 2003-11-28 01:07am

Do guys like this really think that by throwing around big names like Wilson Clouds they actually look smart? I didn't know what the fuck a Wilson Cloud was (until I read Mike's reply anyways) but it was obvious as shit that Virus-X didn't either. Can't Trek get one goddamn knowledgable debater that is also older than twelve?

Maybe Darkstar can pay a physics professor to come down and refute Mike's arguments :lol:

User avatar
Stravo
Official SD.Net Teller of Tales
Posts: 12806
Joined: 2002-07-08 12:06pm
Location: NYC

Postby Stravo » 2003-11-28 01:10am

This guy's arguments were essentially Darkstar lite and as Mike aptly pointed out the old "Warsie cultists" thing grew VERY old VERY fast. He was essentially inserting it as a tag line after nearly every sentence like a mantra in the hopes that it would dispel logic.

After a lot of ad hominims and hand waving he essentially said "Dialogue over visuals" and the pictures speak for themselves as long as they are pro Trek oh and let's not forget "Warsie cuiltists."

Mike I can tell you had fun writing this rebutal unlike the previous Dorkstar debate.

EDIT: Oh and he is a creationist as well? What is it about Creationists and stupidity?
Wherever you go, there you are.

Ripped Shirt Monkey - BOTMWriter's Guild Cybertron's Finest Justice League
This updated sig brought to you by JME2
Image

User avatar
Lord of the Farce
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2198
Joined: 2002-08-06 10:49am
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Postby Lord of the Farce » 2003-11-28 01:13am

Connor MacLeod wrote:I bet he brings up the Borg Isokinetic Mine example in his next reply :D


Yes! Please! I'd love to hear how he'll try to turn "affect an entire system" into "destroy an entire system" now-a-days.
"Intelligent Design" Not Accepted by Most Scientists

User avatar
Connor MacLeod
Sith Apprentice
Posts: 14057
Joined: 2002-08-01 05:03pm
Contact:

Postby Connor MacLeod » 2003-11-28 01:44am

The Kernel wrote:Do guys like this really think that by throwing around big names like Wilson Clouds they actually look smart? I didn't know what the fuck a Wilson Cloud was (until I read Mike's reply anyways) but it was obvious as shit that Virus-X didn't either. Can't Trek get one goddamn knowledgable debater that is also older than twelve?

Maybe Darkstar can pay a physics professor to come down and refute Mike's arguments :lol:


From what I recall, the whole "Wilson cloud" thing, this originated in the MSN discussions he's been sniping at Mike from for awhile. Very likely, he was tossing around names like that expecting that there would be noone knowledgable enough to know he was bullshitting (the way Mike pointed it out) and thus would likely not be able to call him on it.

Whether or not he genuinely believed he could fool Mike, or just cut and paste it without bothering to look at what he posted, I dont know

User avatar
Master of Ossus
Darkest Knight
Posts: 18212
Joined: 2002-07-11 01:35am
Location: California

Postby Master of Ossus » 2003-11-28 02:29am

Ghost Rider wrote: I really wish more people would read MoO's dissection of it.


Many, many people have read that piece, and still more of them have read the exerpts of it that DarkStar posted on his website. So much of his rebuttal to that was so funny that it's hard to pick a best line, but I think the part when he's refuting my "Nemesis" calculations by pointing out something that I specifically mentioned in my original work and dismissed constituted a rebuttal of the entire calculation, which he later described as a fallacy.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul

Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner

"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000

"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."

User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70027
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Postby Darth Wong » 2003-11-28 03:07am

Stravo wrote:This guy's arguments were essentially Darkstar lite and as Mike aptly pointed out the old "Warsie cultists" thing grew VERY old VERY fast. He was essentially inserting it as a tag line after nearly every sentence like a mantra in the hopes that it would dispel logic.

After a lot of ad hominims and hand waving he essentially said "Dialogue over visuals" and the pictures speak for themselves as long as they are pro Trek oh and let's not forget "Warsie cuiltists."

He's been busily trying to copy Darkstar's debate tactics.
Mike I can tell you had fun writing this rebutal unlike the previous Dorkstar debate.

Well, it's funny because so many of these arguments are actually Darkstar's arguments (in some cases verbatim), and he tries to use the same techniques so you'd think it would be just as tedious, but the sheer length is not as bad. I suppose he could try and drag it out in order to be just as irritating as Darkstar, but part of the problem with Darkstar was that I just didn't realize any human being could have such intensity of devotion to this subject. Normally when you point out that someone's engaging in obvious fallacies he tries another tack, rather than stubbornly repeating the fallacies while simply lengthening them with each iteration. His method is to simply wear you down with his stubbornness until you get infuriated at him, and it's hard to have any fun that way.

Of course, this clown might try the same tactic, but I strongly suspect he has more of a life than Darkstar, and so he won't be able to do the "swamp you with 100 kB of bullshit until I wear you down" technique.
EDIT: Oh and he is a creationist as well? What is it about Creationists and stupidity?

Yes, he's a confirmed creationist. Even mentions it as one of his interests in his Yahoo profile. And he's a "born again Christian" too.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html

User avatar
2000AD
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6666
Joined: 2002-07-03 06:32pm
Location: Leeds, wishing i was still in Newcastle
Contact:

Postby 2000AD » 2003-11-28 07:09am

Stravo wrote:EDIT: Oh and he is a creationist as well? What is it about Creationists and stupidity?


Isn't stupidity a pre-requisite for being a creationist?
Ph34r teh eyebrow!!11!Writers Guild Sluggite Pawn of Chaos WYGIWYGAINGW so now i have to put ACPATHNTDWATGODW in my sig EBC-Honorary Geordie
Hammerman! Hammer!

User avatar
Rightous Fist Of Heaven
Jedi Master
Posts: 1201
Joined: 2002-09-29 05:31pm
Location: Finland

Postby Rightous Fist Of Heaven » 2003-11-28 07:50am

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/Virus-X/Debate-1a.html

Enjoy.


You got the Londo quote wrong. It would have fitted so much better if you'd said the entire line:

"Ah, arrogance and stupidity all in the same package. How efficient of you."


Not to mention how well would that fit the case we have here.
"The ones they built at the height of nuclear weapons could knock the earth out of its orbit" - Physics expert Envy in reference to the hydrogen bombs built during the cold war.

User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70027
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Postby Darth Wong » 2003-11-28 09:18am

Looks like he's trying to duck my reply. I sent him the following:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/Virus-X/Debate-1a.html

Enjoy.

to which he replied with:
I'll be seeing your response, when you send one.

I responded with:
I'll be seeing your response, when you send one.

I already told you, I put it up at http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Hat ... te-1a.html

Don't pretend you don't know how to click on a link, asshole. You sent me a fucking Word document and you think it's too inconvenient for you to click on a link?

Or is this your way of conceding the debate? If you refuse to click on that link, that is how I will be forced to interpret it.

Is this guy good for anything but running away?
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html

User avatar
KrauserKrauser
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2633
Joined: 2002-12-15 01:49am
Location: Richmond, VA

Postby KrauserKrauser » 2003-11-28 11:28am

I bet he would provide ample stock for my meat puppets.
VRWC : Justice League : SDN Weight Watchers : BOTM : Former AYVB

Resident Magic the Gathering Guru : Recovering MMORPG Addict

User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70027
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Postby Darth Wong » 2003-11-28 12:50pm

More pathetic evasions.
Isaac Pussy Junior wrote:For 1, I don't take orders from you. For 2, I've already told you that I'm not wading through megabytes of garbage, hence direct debating through e-mail. For 3, watch your yapper. I'm trying to speak respectfully to you, but, quite frankly, I'm not bound to do so, when it's never returned. If you want to interpret that as concession, go right ahead, but anyone that can read will see that all you had to do was continue asking me questions, and I'd answer them as time permitted. If you were so hot to 'debate' me, you could've continued. As it is, you're the one looking at concession, because you never answered anything I addressed; you only sent me some 'be seeing you' crap, and a link to your hate mail page.

Like I said, if you're so hot to debate me, you'd continue. Just as you claim I have time to continue reading your site, when in fact I don't, you certainly have the time to read e-mail; after all, you had enough time to spam me with more than 8 useless letters, and post them, decrying that I think you're a bigot. With that amount of time to waste, you should have enough time set aside for an e-mail debate. If you didn't, then you should've said so, a long time ago.

I'll be expecting your next e-mail, unless you're dropping out of the debate, and, really, I couldn't care less. My life has too many other good things and people in it to crow about Star Trek v. Star Wars 'concessions'.

I responded as follows:
I wrote:
For 1, I don't take orders from you.

You seem to have no problem giving them, when you're looking for excuses to
duck the argument.
For 2, I've already told you that I'm not wading through megabytes of garbage, hence direct debating through e-mail.

Bullshit, and bullshit. Not only is my reply a single page which is nowhere NEAR "megabytes" in size (something you could see for yourself in less than 10 seconds if you clicked on the link), but YOU stopped using straight E-mail when you switched to a Word document.
For 3, watch your yapper.

Why should I?
I'm trying to speak respectfully to you, but, quite frankly, I'm not bound to do so, when it's never returned.

It is not "respect" to lie to someone's face and invent bullshit reasons for evading his rebuttal.
If you want to interpret that as concession, go right ahead, but anyone that can read will see that all you had to do was continue asking me questions, and I'd answer them as time permitted.

This is not a Q&A period, asshole. You are not a teacher, and I am not a student. This is an argument, and YOU switched from E-mail to documents which must be read using a third-party piece of software. Ranting at me for doing the same is nothing more than another pathetic delaying action on your part, and everyone knows it.
If you were so hot to 'debate' me, you could've continued.

I did.
As it is, you're the one looking at concession, because you never answered anything I addressed; you only sent me some 'be seeing you' crap, and a link to your hate mail page.

I sent you a link to an online copy of my rebuttal, which you could see for yourself if you clicked on the link. It is a single page, not my entire website. You are just desperately searching for an excuse to duck out of this debate.
Like I said, if you're so hot to debate me, you'd continue.

I did.
Just as you claim I have time to continue reading your site, when in fact I don't, you certainly have the time to read e-mail; after all, you had enough time to spam me with more than 8 useless letters,

More of your ridiculous "you're spamming me by answering my E-mails" bullshit. And by the way, since I know you've been watching the thread on my webboard that relates to you, it's pretty damned funny of you to claim that you can't find the time to click on a link to see the rebuttal, never mind your pathetic dodge of pretending it's a link to a general Hate Mail page when anyone can look at the link and see that it's obviously dedicated to this debate (hint: the "Virus-X" part of it should make that quite clear).
and post them, decrying that I think you're a bigot. With that amount of time to waste, you should have enough time set aside for an e-mail debate.

You switched to formatted documents including pictures. So did I. This is no excuse, Junior.
If you didn't, then you should've said so, a long time ago.

I'll be expecting your next e-mail, unless you're dropping out of the debate, and, really, I couldn't care less.

Yet again, you look desperately for excuses not to acknowledge my arguments. Yet again, I will defuse your pathetic evasions and delaying tactics by simply copying and pasting. I've saved the rebuttal as an attachment to this E-mail. You'd better find another excuse, Junior.
My life has too many other good things and people in it to crow about Star Trek v. Star Wars 'concessions'.

Yeah, I saw you crying about your personal life on your LiveJournal. Funny thing about your busy personal life; you've had plenty of time to spew on MSN for a very long time about Star Wars and Star Trek, even to the point of ranting that you would physically assault numerous people (myself included) if you could. It's a bit late to pretend you don't care now, isn't it?

It looks like he's also trying to emulate Darkstar's "I'm not running away from the debate; you're running away from the debate!" bullshit. Apparently he didn't notice that nobody bought it when Darkstar did it either.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html

User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Postby Ghost Rider » 2003-11-28 01:01pm

LOL...more comedy gold...especially the whole "Be nice or I won't play with you" bit.

Sorta sad he's ducking out within the first round of discussion.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete

User avatar
Kuroneko
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2469
Joined: 2003-03-13 03:10am
Location: Fréchet space
Contact:

Postby Kuroneko » 2003-11-28 01:10pm

Sheesh. A wannabe schiffer, but a poor-quality one. How hard can it be to abandon a sinking ship?

Better to admit ignorance than prove imbecility.
"The fool saith in his heart that there is no empty set. But if that were so, then the set of all such sets would be empty, and hence it would be the empty set." -- Wesley Salmon


Return to “Star Wars vs Star Trek”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest