Orionsarm.org

[SirNitram]

Assuming I've been reading the math right, it's been observed in hypermatter. No, I'm not bullshitting here; there's RL stuff called hypermatter.

Are you sure this is more than simply a collection of hyperons? That can plausibly be called `hypermatter', though it would have real, positive mass.

Yes, Hypermatter is the name that apparently is given to hyperon-collections. I should note that what I understood of it(And thus might reveal my inadequecies), what I took to be complex mass was mass that was higher than it should have been.

[kojikun]

Alan has changed the part where he says the AIs would immediately begin construction. The entry now says:

A fairer comparison would be for the archailects of the Orion's Arm universe to be magically transported into the FTL universe in question, where they would very quickly discover that FTL, force fields etc are now possible, and be able to begin constructing such devices, as with their vast megascale Jupiter-nodes, Dyson nodes, and Matrioshka-brains they would be able to analyse the physics of the universe very rapidly. Their incredibly fast thought processes would allow them to develop theories and new technologies not only incomparably faster then any human could, but also incomparably more efficient and powerful than the versions used by the FTL universe's original inhabitants. They would then easily conquer and colonise the entire FTL universe. The baseline-intelligence humans and humanoids of those universes would be easily outsmarted, subverted (via memetics) and controlled, and in any case their shipyards would be useless against the manufacturing capacity of thousands of dyson spheres, and their big clumsy capital ships are easily outmaneouvured because they only fight in two dimensions (naval analogy). Even Banks' Culture Minds - far advanced as they are over anything in the Federation or Empire, only seem to qualify at basic transapient/hyperturing grade. (for a good look at higher toposophics, see Vinge's Fire Upon the Deep, and (for more limited archailects) Zindell's Neverness)

[Sarevok]

Super intelligent AIs as depicted in the Orions Arm universe are no more realistic than hyperdrive.

[NecronLord]

which could disable shields since it works at the quantum level

The mind boggles. Explain to me, where anything 'quantum' disables even ST sheilds. Honestly, they complain about Star Trek, and then spew something like that.

For example, a Star Wars ship may have a weapon that blows up an asteroid or even an entire planet. There is no discussion or explanation on how such enormous amounts of energy could be reasonably generated, confined, and directed, excess heat dissipated, and so on.

Thus I think we can infer that gigaton range weapons are beyond them.

manufacturing capacity of thousands of dyson spheres,

Power output of a Sol type star : 3.827 E26 W

Midrange power output calc of a DS hypermatter reactor : (1 e+38 J / 86400 ) 1.157 E33 W

Thus, one DS rector is equal to 3,024,320 Dyson spheres in its energy output, and thus capability to do work (IE build starships sucka).

You were saying something bub?

Now, without resorting the the cop out of "our equally unobtanium AIs will discover everything about this other galaxy," could someone explain to me what prevents a mass galaxy gun assault?

[Admiral Valdemar]

So insane (and unsubstantiated) computing power = flawless victory?

Wow, so just outhinking an enemy means you're guaran-damn-teed to win no matter what? I always thought resources, combat ability and logistics had a factor in this.

[NecronLord]

Indeed.

In every way but computation (and even then, what hard figures are there?) and, admittedly, megastructures, the empire utterly outstrips the Terragen Empires.

[Sarevok]

Indeed.

In every way but computation (and even then, what hard figures are there?) and, admittedly, megastructures, the empire utterly outstrips the Terragen Empires.

The Terragen Empire lags behind in every way including firepower, shielding (they do not even have shields), and propulsion (no FTL drive). A single ISD can bring down their whole galaxy.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Indeed.

In every way but computation (and even then, what hard figures are there?) and, admittedly, megastructures, the empire utterly outstrips the Terragen Empires.

The Terragen Empire lags behind in every way including firepower, shielding (they do not even have shields), and propulsion (no FTL drive). A single ISD can bring down their whole galaxy.

Well they are supposed to be based on reality somewhat so that wouldn't be too hard to accomplish.

[Sarevok]

The Terragen Empire is no more realistic than the Galactic Empire.

[SirNitram]

The Terragen empire is slightly more realistic.. Though not as much as it's worshippers want. It's certainly no more realistic than Niven's Known Space, and not nearly as interesting.

[Mad]

A fairer comparison would be for the archailects of the Orion's Arm universe to be magically transported into the FTL universe in question, where they would very quickly discover that FTL, force fields etc are now possible, and be able to begin constructing such devices, as with their vast megascale Jupiter-nodes, Dyson nodes, and Matrioshka-brains they would be able to analyse the physics of the universe very rapidly.

So they will immediately be able to test for things they don't know exist? The AIs are supposed to just know which direction to look for to access subspace or hyperspace without having any equipment to test for it?

Their incredibly fast thought processes would allow them to develop theories and new technologies not only incomparably faster then any human could, but also incomparably more efficient and powerful than the versions used by the FTL universe's original inhabitants.

And AI programs of the universe in question couldn't have been utlilized to analyze and enhance their own technologies to the same point? Even after thousands of years in some universes?

[ClaysGhost]

~= "Wormholes need negative mass"

Negative energy density, not negative mass. Negative mass is not required by wormholes. Negative energy density making up some part of the Universe is one interpretation that can be made from supernova, CMB and lensing results; at the moment it is the favoured interpretation although that may well change with time. For wormholes, the problems are rather that you need an awful lot of this exotic matter and there is not the slightest evidence at the moment that negative energy density is a property that can be concentrated, as far as I'm aware.

[kojikun]

So they will immediately be able to test for things they don't know exist? The AIs are supposed to just know which direction to look for to access subspace or hyperspace without having any equipment to test for it?

No, but the AI do have equiptment that can test for new laws of physics etc, and will be able to figure out theories to explain them faster then any human.

And AI programs of the universe in question couldn't have been utlilized to analyze and enhance their own technologies to the same point? Even after thousands of years in some universes?

Obviously not, since they don't exist.

[Mad]

No, but the AI do have equiptment that can test for new laws of physics etc, and will be able to figure out theories to explain them faster then any human.

Think about what you just wrote...

First, how does one test for new laws of physics? First, you need observation. What are you going to observe about subspace when you don't have any equipment to detect it? What about the Force? SW (to my knowledge) doesn't even have tech to detect the Force itself, and yet the OA AIs are supposed to know exactly where to look?

At best, the equipment would have to guess about where to look for these changes. Then the concept of algorithm termination comes into play; there's no guarantee that the equipment will make the correct guesses in any viable amount of time (before being destroyed by the Borg, an ISD, or what-have-you).

And why would a starship carry equipment to test for new laws of physics? It'd be wasteful to carry such equipment unless a change in physics is expected. And, well, physical laws aren't exactly known for spontanously changing...

(As an aside, general practice in versus debates is to assume both universes follow the same ruleset and that inhabitants from the universes simply haven't discovered the alternate rules the other universe has. Under that general practice, then, a "Vs" OA universe would already have subspace/hyperspace/etc as features of their home universe, but they simply haven't discovered them! Thus, the argument that their equipment can find it would be errornous; instead, it'd be next to useless as far as they are concerned.)

And AI programs of the universe in question couldn't have been utlilized to analyze and enhance their own technologies to the same point? Even after thousands of years in some universes?

Obviously not, since they don't exist.

So now Star Wars and Star Trek don't have AI (or even expert systems)?

[kojikun]

Mad: The laws of physics would be radically different in the SW universe then in this universe. Things would operate different. Observations of non-conforming properties of subatomic particles and higher dimensional physics would clue the AIs into the difference. But thats not to say they'd do it INSTANTLY. Just faster then humans. And The Force is just pfeh.

AIs in OA tend to have a thing for discovering new laws of physics so they can use them to their advantage and achieve higher toposophic levels. Besides, these AIs are the size of gas giants. A particle accelerate would be insignificantly small in mass.

Response to your aside: the situation where the AIs are transported into the SW universe assumes that the laws of physics are not the same in thw SW universe as in the OA universe. If the universes were the same, then the AI would only need to capture a single hyperdrive capable vessel in order to analyze the technology. How its going to capture one, I don't know. Maybe its a freight vessel or something. But thats more detail then we're getting into.

So now Star Wars and Star Trek don't have AI (or even expert systems)?

I meant ones paralelling the archailects in Orions Arm. OA follows Singularity-based curves for computational power. Even with the standard Base-2 exponential curve with the equation F(x)=2^(2x/3), the intelligence/computational power of a standard AI would increase by 8E2,000 over 10,000 years.. assuming the laws of physics allow for it to do so (and OA assumes they do), so the AIs in OA are significantly more advanced then anything seen in Star Wars.

[kojikun]

btw, if you didn't get the exponential equation, its the equation for Moore's Law that computational power doubles every 18 months. If x is one year, then thats 2/3 of one doubling period in the law. Thats used as a power of 2 to get the doubling effect.

[Hotfoot]

I meant ones paralelling the archailects in Orions Arm. OA follows Singularity-based curves for computational power. Even with the standard Base-2 exponential curve with the equation F(x)=2^(2x/3), the intelligence/computational power of a standard AI would increase by 8E2,000 over 10,000 years.. assuming the laws of physics allow for it to do so (and OA assumes they do), so the AIs in OA are significantly more advanced then anything seen in Star Wars.

And that assumption is no better or worse than assuming that physics allows for some form or another of FTL travel. Moore's Law isn't even a Law, it's just what newspapers called it. The most optimistic of estimates assume that it might remain true for another decade. That's ten years, not 10,000. It would be like taking a quote from someone in the aviation industry some fifty years ago saying "Airplanes are getting faster and faster, by my calculations, the speed of aircraft should double every two years," and then stating that it is now perfectly reasonable to expect faster than light travel to have developed 10,000 years in the furture.

[SirNitram]

btw, if you didn't get the exponential equation, its the equation for Moore's Law that computational power doubles every 18 months. If x is one year, then thats 2/3 of one doubling period in the law. Thats used as a power of 2 to get the doubling effect.

Moore's Law, the biggest load of crap ever to be mistaken for a law. Does your lack of intelligence not register that there's a size limit on practical transistors?

[kojikun]

<snip>

True. But I wasn't arguing realism, just capabilities of the AIs based on the assumed rules of the OA universe, thats all.

Moore's Law, the biggest load of crap ever to be mistaken for a law.

Agreed. It's a piss poor "law" that only acts as a general guide.

Does your lack of intelligence not register that there's a size limit on practical transistors?

Whoa hey, wtf? I didn't mention transistors at all, and I said the we're talking OA universe physics, not real physics, so ease off.

[Mad]

Mad: The laws of physics would be radically different in the SW universe then in this universe. Things would operate different. Observations of non-conforming properties of subatomic particles and higher dimensional physics would clue the AIs into the difference. But thats not to say they'd do it INSTANTLY. Just faster then humans.

Why would subatomic particles/higher dimensional physics have to behave differently than they do in the OA universe? For all we know, the stuff could behave exactly the same (after all, we certainly don't know the specifics of how SW or ST physics work) and the differences exist in a domain the AIs haven't even touched.

And The Force is just pfeh.

Was that a dodge?

AIs in OA tend to have a thing for discovering new laws of physics so they can use them to their advantage and achieve higher toposophic levels. Besides, these AIs are the size of gas giants. A particle accelerate would be insignificantly small in mass.

And where has this equipment along with AIs discoverd new laws of physics? Why didn't they discover those laws before? Seems to me more like the laws haven't changed so much as the AI has discovered something about physics it didn't know before. Meaning there still seems to be bits of physics from the OA universe that the AIs don't even understand. And then they're supposed to figure out completely foreign technologies like hyperdrive or warp in any reasonable period of time?

Response to your aside: the situation where the AIs are transported into the SW universe assumes that the laws of physics are not the same in thw SW universe as in the OA universe. If the universes were the same, then the AI would only need to capture a single hyperdrive capable vessel in order to analyze the technology. How its going to capture one, I don't know. Maybe its a freight vessel or something. But thats more detail then we're getting into.

Evidence? Can the Borg assimilate every piece of technology they come in contact with, no matter how advanced? Can the Federation adapt any technology they find, no matter how advanced? What makes the OA AIs capable of this when dealing with technology the likes of which they've never come across? (And try to give some quantative answer instead of "because they're advanced enough...")

I meant ones paralelling the archailects in Orions Arm. OA follows Singularity-based curves for computational power. Even with the standard Base-2 exponential curve with the equation F(x)=2^(2x/3), the intelligence/computational power of a standard AI would increase by 8E2,000 over 10,000 years.. assuming the laws of physics allow for it to do so (and OA assumes they do), so the AIs in OA are significantly more advanced then anything seen in Star Wars.

They're quantitatively more powerful than the computers of the 25,000+ year old tech progression of SW, how, exactly? Why are we going to assume that OA hasn't hit the roadblock but then go and assume that SW has? (Remember, a small SW droid -- actualy, an even smaller data crystal -- can hold the plans to the Death Star, and the entire plans can be analyzed well under 24 hours to find a weakness...)

[kojikun]

Why would subatomic particles/higher dimensional physics have to behave differently than they do in the OA universe? For all we know, the stuff could behave exactly the same (after all, we certainly don't know the specifics of how SW or ST physics work) and the differences exist in a domain the AIs haven't even touched.

True, but we are assuming that both universes are seperate with unique laws of physics, remember?

Was that a dodge?

No, but Jedi's don't win wars, ships and guns do. Tho you're right, in SW theres no mechanical way of manipulating the Force. The limitations of SW intelligences might be part of this, but who knows. Unless a Sith Lord is going to be using his magick to crush Jupiter brains, it's not much of an issue.

And where has this equipment along with AIs discoverd new laws of physics?

Most likely the changes would be observed in high energy accelerator experiments. If higher dimensions are more easilly accessible in the SW universe then in ours, high energy experiments will show this by an extremely different mass/energy level after then before, indicating that matter or energy had to have been shunted into higher dimensions that we can't move in. This would mean that the laws of physics have changed.

Why didn't they discover those laws before? Seems to me more like the laws haven't changed so much as the AI has discovered something about physics it didn't know before. Meaning there still seems to be bits of physics from the OA universe that the AIs don't even understand.

Different universe, different rules. This was assumed in the original page.

And then they're supposed to figure out completely foreign technologies like hyperdrive or warp in any reasonable period of time?

Humans were able to develope "modern" hyperdrive in SW over a period of about 25,000 years (i believe). The AIs in OA are millions of times faster and smarter then humans. The math could be worked out in seconds. the experimentation would require a but of time, however.

Evidence? Can the Borg assimilate every piece of technology they come in contact with, no matter how advanced? Can the Federation adapt any technology they find, no matter how advanced? What makes the OA AIs capable of this when dealing with technology the likes of which they've never come across? (And try to give some quantative answer instead of "because they're advanced enough...")

Borg do not have the ability to analyze particle-by-particle the operation of a technology. And the assimilation problem has always been an issue of time to develop the technology required. It's like the daVinci jet plan analogy. Give daVinci the plans to a jet plane and he can't build it because he doesn't have the technology. That does not, however, mean he doesn't have the plans. We were talking about analysing the technology and replicating it, without a finite time layed out. What makes them capable is their ability to analyze things to such a small scale that they could have plans for a hyperdrive, or whatever, down to the position of atoms. If materials are standard matter and not some new physics, then replicating it is just a matter of putting the right stuff in the right place. If there is new physics involved in constructing the materials, thats where the AIs would need to find the new laws of physics. This would actually help them, because they would have a fundemental particle set to work with like we did 100 years ago.

They're quantitatively more powerful than the computers of the 25,000+ year old tech progression of SW, how, exactly?

Displayed intelligence and computational abilities.

Why are we going to assume that OA hasn't hit the roadblock but then go and assume that SW has? (Remember, a small SW droid -- actualy, an even smaller data crystal -- can hold the plans to the Death Star, and the entire plans can be analyzed well under 24 hours to find a weakness...)

True that R2D2 can hold schematics and the plans can be analyzed for flaws in under 24 hours, but those tasks would not require intelligences equal to OA archailects. The process of calculating a route between stars would be childs play to an archailect, as it would to a modern day supercomputer. Finding a clear path between a few hundred billion stars would be nothing.

[Mad]

True, but we are assuming that both universes are seperate with unique laws of physics, remember?

But nobody said where those differences were located. You're assuming they'll be somewhere that OA technology can detect. There is no guarantee that this is the case.

What happens if the differences are outside the domain that OA tech can detect?

No, but Jedi's don't win wars, ships and guns do. Tho you're right, in SW theres no mechanical way of manipulating the Force. The limitations of SW intelligences might be part of this, but who knows. Unless a Sith Lord is going to be using his magick to crush Jupiter brains, it's not much of an issue.

There's obviously a way to access the Force, since biological life can. SW hasn't figured it out, though. So, are you claiming that OA tech will be able to access the Force? After all, it's definitely new physics...

Most likely the changes would be observed in high energy accelerator experiments.

Nice doge. I asked where OA tech has discovered new physics. Again, it sounds to me like OA has an incomplete knowledge of its own physics. I see no reason why it should suddenly be able to figure out completely foreign physics.

If higher dimensions are more easilly accessible in the SW universe then in ours, high energy experiments will show this by an extremely different mass/energy level after then before, indicating that matter or energy had to have been shunted into higher dimensions that we can't move in. This would mean that the laws of physics have changed.

You're assuming that they're more easily accessible. SW/ST may simply have access to exotic particles along with the sheer power required to accomplish the tasks. We don't know how the tech works, and hoping that it's just "easier" in SW/ST so that OA can emulate it is a weak argument.

And what happens if it's more difficult, but SW has simply found a way around it that we haven't? OA would be quite screwed then, eh?

Less assumptions, more evidence, please.

Why didn't they discover those laws before? Seems to me more like the laws haven't changed so much as the AI has discovered something about physics it didn't know before. Meaning there still seems to be bits of physics from the OA universe that the AIs don't even understand.

Different universe, different rules. This was assumed in the original page.

Again, you dodged my question about OA AIs discovering "new" physics within their own universe. Same universe, same rules. OA has an incomplete understanding of their own universe, I highly doubt they'll easily pick up completely foreign details in alternate universes...

Humans were able to develope "modern" hyperdrive in SW over a period of about 25,000 years (i believe). The AIs in OA are millions of times faster and smarter then humans. The math could be worked out in seconds. the experimentation would require a but of time, however.

Because SW never, ever uses droids to help along with anything, right? You're making assumptions again.

Displayed intelligence and computational abilities.

Give specific examples that are superior to what SW has been seen accomplishing.

True that R2D2 can hold schematics and the plans can be analyzed for flaws in under 24 hours, but those tasks would not require intelligences equal to OA archailects.

Why would intelligence be required over raw processing power in physics analysis? What evidence is there that SW's 25,000+ year old computer technology has less computational ability than OA's ~10,000 year old computer technology?

The process of calculating a route between stars would be childs play to an archailect, as it would to a modern day supercomputer. Finding a clear path between a few hundred billion stars would be nothing.

And it's nothing for a number of SW computers, as well. Of course, hyperjump calculations require more than just knowing the particular path to follow...

[SirNitram]

Whoa hey, wtf? I didn't mention transistors at all, and I said the we're talking OA universe physics, not real physics, so ease off.

Moore's law is about Transistors, Kojikun. This is another case of you needing to learn what the fuck you're talking about. Moore's law states how often the number of transistors should increase.

[kojikun]

But nobody said where those differences were located. You're assuming they'll be somewhere that OA technology can detect. There is no guarantee that this is the case.

What happens if the differences are outside the domain that OA tech can detect?

The only way I can see this happening is if the distances involved in smashing particles together are reliant on energies far beyond what OA technology can provide. However, the fact that the various physical laws can be utilised with comparatively little energy (see note at the end of the sentence), that it's unlikely that all the laws of physics in the SW universe will be inaccesibble to the OA AIs. (Note: there has to be some non-supertech method of initiating the supertech processes in SW, otherwise they would have no way ot getting to the supertech in the first place. example: even if hypermatter reactors work on new laws of physics, you still have to start one up, which means those new laws cannot require more power or energy then standard energy sources can provide, otherwise you wouldnt be able to start the reactor because its the only power source capable of starting itself).

There's obviously a way to access the Force, since biological life can. SW hasn't figured it out, though. So, are you claiming that OA tech will be able to access the Force? After all, it's definitely new physics...

True, and given the time, the AIs would certainly be able to figure out those new laws. Especially if they can get there hands on someone with force ability and monitor whats going on in the person during those powers activation.

Nice doge. I asked where OA tech has discovered new physics. Again, it sounds to me like OA has an incomplete knowledge of its own physics. I see no reason why it should suddenly be able to figure out completely foreign physics.

Oh, sorry, I thought you mean where they would find the new laws of physics when they're in the SW universe. But where the AIs found new laws of physics is irrelevant. They exist in OA.

You're assuming that they're more easily accessible. SW/ST may simply have access to exotic particles along with the sheer power required to accomplish the tasks. We don't know how the tech works, and hoping that it's just "easier" in SW/ST so that OA can emulate it is a weak argument.

Mm possible. But if the same higher dimensions exist here as there, then it must be easier to access there, because primitive baseline humans can hack the math to do it while superior AIs cannot. The laws of physics must make it easier in the SW universe.

And what happens if it's more difficult, but SW has simply found a way around it that we haven't? OA would be quite screwed then, eh?

That would require intelligences greater then those in OA, something which hasn't been observed in SW. As I said, baselines can hack the math, but superior AI cannot, so the math must be different from universe to universe.

Less assumptions, more evidence, please.

Most of your arguments are assumption as well. "What if" was your last argument. That is an assumption, not a fact or evidence.

Again, you dodged my question about OA AIs discovering "new" physics within their own universe. Same universe, same rules. OA has an incomplete understanding of their own universe, I highly doubt they'll easily pick up completely foreign details in alternate universes...

Again, NOT THE SAME UNIVERSE, NOT THE SAME RULES. This was stated in the OA Vs. page, why don't you understand this?

Because SW never, ever uses droids to help along with anything, right? You're making assumptions again.

Oh, they could have, but their AIs seem to be incapable of anything beyond language skills. Unless you have evidence of superhuman intelligence, then droids and AIs in SW are completely useless.

Give specific examples that are superior to what SW has been seen accomplishing.

2100 level OA technology has displayed intelligence equal to human intelligence, and unquestionably superior to the intelligence of C3PO or R2D2. OA technology continues improving for thousands of years after 2100.

Why would intelligence be required over raw processing power in physics analysis?

Analysis of what portions of experiments must be analysed requires some intelligence behind it.

What evidence is there that SW's 25,000+ year old computer technology has less computational ability than OA's ~10,000 year old computer technology?

From the OA AI History page, its stated that yottahertz nanotic processing was available in 2370. Now, how this is worked I don't know, so don't ask. But the fact remains that in OA, they have processer abilities equivalent to what we'd consider yottahertz processors. This is a good quadrillion times more powerful then modern CPUs, and a few billion times more powerful then the required power for AI. The tasks of finding clear routs between hundreds of billions of stars would be relatively simple to a modern day supercomputer such as the ASCI series. An equivalent number of yottahertz processors would far outpace anything seen in SW.

And it's nothing for a number of SW computers, as well. Of course, hyperjump calculations require more than just knowing the particular path to follow...

Except it takes a few minutes to do. And last I heard, the calculations were navigational in nature.

[Symmetry]

You forgot the FTL warp bubble sensor. It is funny seeing as how they bash sci-fi for having FTL drive but themselves use FTL technology.

The premise behind that one is that its only impossible to make macroscopic warp drives, because while the physics works out the energy requirement is far too high. But small particles can be propelled by such 'drives' because their small size brings the energy requirements down to realistic levels.

They don't realize that the energy requirement problem for lightspeed travel is independent of the size of an object, and applies equally to a single electron as it does to a planet?

Actually, they're right. Its true that the requirement is independant of the mass of the object, but the larger its cross section the greater volume of space has to be distorted (by negitive energy which probably doesn't exist, but oh well). This means that it doesn't require more energy than is in the universe to warp space to transport a particle sized object faster than light, like it would to transport a standard scifi starship.