Gatts(Berserk)is sent to Discworld..

[LadyTevar]

Gentlemen, the 'Shiny Breastplate' comment is once again an example of Discworld Reality.

It means that Carrot's breastplate is well-taken care of, no dents or cracks in the metal. It goes along with the Story of the Well-Keep, Clean-Shaven Upright Hero.

[LadyTevar]

Stupid server errors......
(snip)

Get real. Indication that the armor is sooo crappy that a blow that not only penetrates it, but slices apart the armor going the width of the torso, along with the armor on the arm as well, would be blocked by a shiny breastplate? Indication that in the other picture of Gatts cutting apart two armored men on horseback and the two horses, that the armor there was crappy, and the horses' bodies were made out of soft cheese?

So, the men on horseback were Major Characters? Or were they the equalient of StarTrek's Redshirts?
Remember: Nameless soldiers and evil guardsmen will die quickly and bloodily when the Hero attacks them. It's part of the STORY.

[Cosmic Average]

Oh yes, you just proved that what controls what a character can and can't do is The STORY.

I had a pretty lengthy reply typed out, but when I hit submit, it took me back to the login screen.

Let me explain to one more time..

If I were attempting to argue the merits the shotgun has over the assualt rifle, I wouldn't cite Army of Darkness as an example that shotguns don't need to be reloaded.

What you did was, you stated that Carrot's sword was not chipped when he stabbed a stone pillar. You then discussed Highlander, in which Connor's sword is chipped when he slices into a concrete pillar. Your conclusion was that since Connor's sword chipped and Carrot's sword didn't, Carrot's sword is obviously superior to all others and will easily cut through Gatts' sword.

Do you understand what I'm attempting to convey to you?

Which is what DiscWorld is based on.

And the contestants are in Middle Earth.

[Cosmic Average]

So, the men on horseback were Major Characters? Or were they the equalient of StarTrek's Redshirts?
Remember: Nameless soldiers and evil guardsmen will die quickly and bloodily when the Hero attacks them. It's part of the STORY.

Smason was a named character in armor. Gatts cut him in two.

The general of the Black Rhino army(he was named, can't remember his name immediately), who wore very thick, heavy armor, was cut in two along with the horse he was riding.

[Cosmic Average]

Anyone else is seeing the no-limits fallacy about "cutting thru swords and armor"?

Damn straight! The pro-Carrot side has only provided one example of Carrot stabbing a stone pillar!

Just because it has cut thru SOME swords and armor (those belonging to nameless ensigns... I mean soldiers) doesn't mean it can cut thru any.

I think you mean every sword and armor, but your meaning is clear.

What if you have TWO gatts with swords, would they cut each other simultaneously?
It's obvious that the nameless soldiers have crappy equipment.

And crappy bodies, too! And their horses are crap as well!

[LadyTevar]

Which is what DiscWorld is based on.

And the contestants are in Middle Earth.

Ah... Then you are saying your original scenario wouldn't work.

Concession Accepted.

[Cosmic Average]

Ah... Then you are saying your original scenario wouldn't work.

Concession Accepted.

Please click this link.
https://galvatron.enetexperience.com/~a ... 9ae#791533

You'll do good to note that the post is made on page two of this thread. If you won't actually read the argument presented..


And also, I noticed you failed to comment on the rest of my post.

[ShinjiGohan]

Upon reading the post. Apparantly those saying Gatts woiuld lose is because he isn't the typical perfect knight in shining armor. His cannon arm isn't typical, so its easily cut, his sword in extraordinarilly big so it'd fail, though he's wearing a realistic helmet (back when he was a member of the Band of hte Hawk), but it isn't a shiny helmet so that'd fail as well....

If Zodd, and the other god hand whose strength far surpass that of a normal human couldn't crack, much less cut the Dragon Slayer in half with a Kushan (SP?) sword, even to the point where they comment that the Dragon Slayer is a demonic sword... this coming FROM demons! I highly doubt a "perfect, sterotypical sword, thats shiny" (you do know that a shiny sword, IE is highly polished is rather thin and should break with ease, and if the edge is shiny then it is dull), weilded by someone that has normal human strength will "downsize" the dragon slayer.

Also due to the brand, Gatsu lives in a world between the real world and the demonic world. And most spells aren't effective against him, especially spells to seal places from people. And considering the live hell that he's endured, ain't no spell is going to scare him (no hallucination would work, and due to the property of the brand, it'd likely make the hallucination real, and he'd deal with it was easily as he does with the rest of his fights.).



That is a poor reason to say that Gatsu would lose.

[Jawawithagun]

Upon reading the post. Apparantly those saying Gatts woiuld lose is because he isn't the typical perfect knight in shining armor. His cannon arm isn't typical, so its easily cut, his sword in extraordinarilly big so it'd fail, though he's wearing a realistic helmet (back when he was a member of the Band of hte Hawk), but it isn't a shiny helmet so that'd fail as well....

If Zodd, and the other god hand whose strength far surpass that of a normal human couldn't crack, much less cut the Dragon Slayer in half with a Kushan (SP?) sword, even to the point where they comment that the Dragon Slayer is a demonic sword... this coming FROM demons! I highly doubt a "perfect, sterotypical sword, thats shiny" (you do know that a shiny sword, IE is highly polished is rather thin and should break with ease, and if the edge is shiny then it is dull), weilded by someone that has normal human strength will "downsize" the dragon slayer.

Also due to the brand, Gatsu lives in a world between the real world and the demonic world. And most spells aren't effective against him, especially spells to seal places from people. And considering the live hell that he's endured, ain't no spell is going to scare him (no hallucination would work, and due to the property of the brand, it'd likely make the hallucination real, and he'd deal with it was easily as he does with the rest of his fights.).



That is a poor reason to say that Gatsu would lose.

No, we're saying the Discworld is working by a certain set of rules and by those rules Gatts as he has been observed falls into a certain role and by the rules pertaining this role he cannot win against certain other roles, one of which Carrot falls into.
The Discworld is all about those rules.

[2000AD]

Hence why someone moved the contest off the discworld and to middle earth. The main argument now is that Carrots sword (which was pushed into a stone (Marble IIRC) pillar with as at least much effort as it takes to impale a man, without damaging the blade) would be able to break Gatts sword (Just a big hunk of iron from what i've picked up).

[Jawawithagun]

Hence why someone moved the contest off the discworld and to middle earth. The main argument now is that Carrots sword (which was pushed into a stone (Marble IIRC) pillar with as at least much effort as it takes to impale a man, without damaging the blade) would be able to break Gatts sword (Just a big hunk of iron from what i've picked up).

And on Middle Earth Carrot would be fucked ... but I don't think Gatts would be able to lift that huge sword of his on ME as such a feat of superhuman strength seems out of line for even the most extreme abilities observed there.

[2000AD]

Hence why someone moved the contest off the discworld and to middle earth. The main argument now is that Carrots sword (which was pushed into a stone (Marble IIRC) pillar with as at least much effort as it takes to impale a man, without damaging the blade) would be able to break Gatts sword (Just a big hunk of iron from what i've picked up).

And on Middle Earth Carrot would be fucked ... but I don't think Gatts would be able to lift that huge sword of his on ME as such a feat of superhuman strength seems out of line for even the most extreme abilities observed there.

Why would Carrot be fucked? His sword should still easily be able to break Gatt's (if it is the "big lump of iron" that it is claimed to be) and that'll give Carrot the opotunity to carve him up.

[Smiling Bandit]

The fact that the sword did not chip and snap shows that it's a rather strudy sword. The fact there's a hole indicates that it did somehow displace the stone, unless if you wish to argue that it somehow made the stone disappear.

basically, in th disc, Carrot's sword is an arbitrary Plank Blade. It cuts anything he needs it to. It doesn't cut things if he doesn't. It doesn't break, because that isn't something Carrot needs it to do.

This isn't really revalent because the sharpness of the point isn't really in dispute, we're looking at the sharpness along the edge. The fact that it could stick inside the body and the pillar indicates that it's not a frictionless, Planck-Length blade.

Arbitrary. Much like the Disc itself.

And, in fact, with a Plank blade you don't really need any force to cut anything. As long as you (or gravity or something) can move aside the intervening object (and without friction that's awesomely easy) you can cut it. It doesn't matter if its collapsed neutronium or a single atom of oxygen. You can cut it.

However, even though Carrot doesn't have that in Middle Earth (unless we want to give them both all their powers, in which case Carrot still wins) he'll take it because Carrot most certainly is the Rightful King. Gatt, in Middle Earh, is just a big jerk with too much time on his hands.

But lets say that they miraculously find a neutral ground, where the laws favor neither of them and neither of them has any magical, mystical, or divine backup in any way. Carrot wins. Gatts can't even carry his stuff without the "anime rules of weight", nor pick up his sword. At close range Carrot cuts him down. At long range Carrot plugs him with a crossbow.

And since someone asked, Carrot doesn't particularly train in any advanced style of super-martial-arts. He has a better teacher - actual fights. He commonly breaks up disputes between angry Dwarves and irritated Trolls, which involves avoiding flying axes and flying rocky fists. His muscles are pretty good, since he can knock Trolls silly. Trolls in discowrld basically being walking piles of rock, metal, and gemstones. He also survived all of those threats, which included everything from dragons to other Things.

However, he takes people more seriously than they often deserve, which is why he followed the Marquis de Queensbury rules in the fight with the werewolf. He thought that was how people were "supposed" to fight, where before he was following ideas of "get outta the axe-head's path of destruction" and "kick 'em inna wossnames".

But you can't separate fantasy characters from their world.

[Slartibartfast]

Anyone else is seeing the no-limits fallacy about "cutting thru swords and armor"?

Damn straight! The pro-Carrot side has only provided one example of Carrot stabbing a stone pillar!

Which gives it a lower limit that is pretty high. All you have is a sword going thru metal of unknown quality worn by fleshy people (aka redshirts), who have a tendency to stand still while being gutted. Then you extrapolate: cuts thru THAT metal, then it can cut thru anything, even harder metal, because flesh is harder than metal, too.

Here's a hint: often a better sword can cut thru a lesser sword. You aren't discovering the wheel here.

Just because it has cut thru SOME swords and armor (those belonging to nameless ensigns... I mean soldiers) doesn't mean it can cut thru any.

I think you mean every sword and armor, but your meaning is clear.

Oh, has it, really? Has it cut thru one of Discworld's characters swords? How about real life armor? Yeah, I bet in your mind the character jumped out of the pages of your little comic book and started slashing tanks and things. Well, gee whiz that's some strong shit you're smoking.

Not to mention that you just stated as fact that there aren't any more weapons or armor left in Gats universe (since he HAS CUT THRU EVERY SWORD AND ARMOR in existence).

What if you have TWO gatts with swords, would they cut each other simultaneously?
It's obvious that the nameless soldiers have crappy equipment.

And crappy bodies, too! And their horses are crap as well!

Damn straight. They also attract ranged weapons fire that otherwise wouldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Oh by the way you keep picking on the meaningless fluff from posts and ignoring the real arguments (about the two Gatts), which is quite dishonest and doesn't show much intelligence, either.

[Bill Door]

I wonder how well Gatts would do against Detrius' crossbow...
I mean, its only a seige weapon, which has been adapted to fire sheaves of arrows very very fast...

[Slartibartfast]

BTW yesterday finished reading the first book. Damn funny but also consistent, I mean even if the reality is fucked up and the situations are funny, it's not as over-the-top as say, Hitchhiker's. It is basically regular fantasy (maybe a bit outrageous) with lots of humor.

[SirNitram]

BTW yesterday finished reading the first book. Damn funny but also consistent, I mean even if the reality is fucked up and the situations are funny, it's not as over-the-top as say, Hitchhiker's. It is basically regular fantasy (maybe a bit outrageous) with lots of humor.

Glad to know we've recruited another. Carrot first appears in the book Guards! Guards! and makes appearances in Men At Arms, Feet Of Clay, Jingo, The Fifth Elephant, Night Watch, and The Last Hero. Another that's good to grab, but very nearly a standalone compared to most of the others, is Small Gods.

[LadyTevar]

BTW yesterday finished reading the first book. Damn funny but also consistent, I mean even if the reality is fucked up and the situations are funny, it's not as over-the-top as say, Hitchhiker's. It is basically regular fantasy (maybe a bit outrageous) with lots of humor.

They will eventually move away from the D&D and more into satirism, but it just makes them better.

[Slartibartfast]

BTW yesterday finished reading the first book. Damn funny but also consistent, I mean even if the reality is fucked up and the situations are funny, it's not as over-the-top as say, Hitchhiker's. It is basically regular fantasy (maybe a bit outrageous) with lots of humor.

Glad to know we've recruited another. Carrot first appears in the book Guards! Guards! and makes appearances in Men At Arms, Feet Of Clay, Jingo, The Fifth Elephant, Night Watch, and The Last Hero. Another that's good to grab, but very nearly a standalone compared to most of the others, is Small Gods.

Well, I've been meaning to read it sooner or later, but for some reason I just kept pushing it back. I'm like that with books, I think I read Clarke's 2010 like a year after I was given the book.

[Cyborg Stan]

basically, in th disc, Carrot's sword is an arbitrary Plank Blade. It cuts anything he needs it to. It doesn't cut things if he doesn't. It doesn't break, because that isn't something Carrot needs it to do.

Evidence? All we have is an example of piercing a stone pillar, which is different from cutting one.

Here's a hint : You would not be able to see the hole left by a Planck Length blade.

And, in fact, with a Plank blade you don't really need any force to cut anything. As long as you (or gravity or something) can move aside the intervening object (and without friction that's awesomely easy) you can cut it. It doesn't matter if its collapsed neutronium or a single atom of oxygen. You can cut it.

You still need force to break bonds. (In your world, do things fall apart if you hang them over the ground?) And you still expect us to accept that it acts like a Planck Length blade on your say-so.

However, even though Carrot doesn't have that in Middle Earth (unless we want to give them both all their powers, in which case Carrot still wins) he'll take it because Carrot most certainly is the Rightful King. Gatt, in Middle Earh, is just a big jerk with too much time on his hands.

You can't have an objective result from subjective rules. There's no guarnetee that the rules would work in Carrot's favor. (Sometimes it's dramatic nessicity for the rightful ruler to die, so that the illegimate son has something to go claim and people to have revenge against. Are we going to start arguing what can make the better fanfic?) Read the end of Jingo : Vimes has the Appointment Imp thing from the alternate version of him where he doesn't go to Al-Khali. There, it lists out who dies one by one - Carrot included - after Ankh-Morpork gets invaded by said Al-Khali. Hardly stunning evidence of the Rightful King aura's ability to deflect weapons now, is it?

But lets say that they miraculously find a neutral ground, where the laws favor neither of them and neither of them has any magical, mystical, or divine backup in any way. Carrot wins. Gatts can't even carry his stuff without the "anime rules of weight", nor pick up his sword. At close range Carrot cuts him down. At long range Carrot plugs him with a crossbow.

Nice job completely fucking over suspension of disbelief. I suppose you're one of the types that giddidly points out that we can't go faster than light in Galatic Empire vs Real World debates?

And since someone asked, Carrot doesn't particularly train in any advanced style of super-martial-arts. He has a better teacher - actual fights. He commonly breaks up disputes between angry Dwarves and irritated Trolls, which involves avoiding flying axes and flying rocky fists. His muscles are pretty good, since he can knock Trolls silly. Trolls in discowrld basically being walking piles of rock, metal, and gemstones. He also survived all of those threats, which included everything from dragons to other Things.

However, he takes people more seriously than they often deserve, which is why he followed the Marquis de Queensbury rules in the fight with the werewolf. He thought that was how people were "supposed" to fight, where before he was following ideas of "get outta the axe-head's path of destruction" and "kick 'em inna wossnames".

It's obviously not working too well. You know why mental training is useful? It's so you don't think that a life-or-death fight will be fought in ways that don't hurt your opponent. It does not say much about him if he decided to follow the advice of book instead of his own experience.

Also note that even if we do ignore this bit of stupidity, Carrot is the equivalent of a policeman, which aren't in the business of killing people. On top of that, how many people actually try to kill Carrot, who more often than not is Everybody's Friend. The two examples that I remember this is not the case is the Werewolf fight, where he got his ass handed to him, and an alternative version of him that got killed. (This being a Rightful King vs Evil Invader scenario, and he didn't even die last.)

But you can't separate fantasy characters from their world.

Despite it being required for a vs. scenario?

[Cyborg Stan]

Which gives it a lower limit that is pretty high. All you have is a sword going thru metal of unknown quality worn by fleshy people (aka redshirts), who have a tendency to stand still while being gutted. Then you extrapolate: cuts thru THAT metal, then it can cut thru anything, even harder metal, because flesh is harder than metal, too. :roll:

Can you say "Suspension of Disbelief"? Maybe that was a cannon fodder stone pillar the sword was shoved through.

Maybe you'll also like to argue that Carrot's arms and neck are also stronger than the metal shown, because a breastplate sure in the hell would not protect them.

Here's a hint: often a better sword can cut thru a lesser sword. You aren't discovering the wheel here.

Show that Carrot's sword is better signficantly better than that the cut sword, and the entire width of the armor. We do know it's been repeatedly described as a Pretty Normal Sword, and at one point shoved into a pillar, which may or may not have an expendable one, if we like to bring up your side's stupidities. Are you saying that it's going to stronger than a sword that's about 50 times it's thickness?

Oh, has it, really? Has it cut thru one of Discworld's characters swords?

Considering that Bezerk does not take place on Discworld, then no.

How about real life armor?

Considering that Bezerk is not real life, no. Any more red herrings you wish to throw out?

Yeah, I bet in your mind the character jumped out of the pages of your little comic book and started slashing tanks and things. Well, gee whiz that's some strong shit you're smoking.

Any comparisons to what they did in the pictures would start with using real life as the baseline, including the armor and swords used. Or should we say that Turbolasers aren't real and they don't occur in Star Trek, so they can't beat Federation shields?

Not to mention that you just stated as fact that there aren't any more weapons or armor left in Gats universe (since he HAS CUT THRU EVERY SWORD AND ARMOR in existence). :roll:

When in doubt, let's attack the phrasing of the argument. Yeah, big man here. If you can't infer what he meant, you're a fucking retard.

Note : This is what is said :

Just because it has cut thru SOME swords and armor (those belonging to nameless ensigns... I mean soldiers) doesn't mean it can cut thru any.

I think you mean every sword and armor, but your meaning is clear. :D

He was correcting you. Are you such a dumbass that you don't think that SOME implies ANY?

Damn straight. They also attract ranged weapons fire that otherwise wouldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

I also suppose that Shizon's character shields bend light away from him, negating claims of crappy aim. I also suppose that background characters act like black holes that attract every projectile in a 50 mile radius. Can you say "Suspension of Disbelief"? It's got alot of syallables, but I'm sure you'll make it someday.

Oh by the way you keep picking on the meaningless fluff from posts and ignoring the real arguments (about the two Gatts), which is quite dishonest and doesn't show much intelligence, either.

Okay then, let's make another argument. Carrot vs Carrot. Would the infinite sharpness or the infinite hardness come into play? Stay tuned!

Okay, that wasn't an argument at all.

[ShinjiGohan]

Upon reading the post. Apparantly those saying Gatts woiuld lose is because he isn't the typical perfect knight in shining armor. His cannon arm isn't typical, so its easily cut, his sword in extraordinarilly big so it'd fail, though he's wearing a realistic helmet (back when he was a member of the Band of hte Hawk), but it isn't a shiny helmet so that'd fail as well....

If Zodd, and the other god hand whose strength far surpass that of a normal human couldn't crack, much less cut the Dragon Slayer in half with a Kushan (SP?) sword, even to the point where they comment that the Dragon Slayer is a demonic sword... this coming FROM demons! I highly doubt a "perfect, sterotypical sword, thats shiny" (you do know that a shiny sword, IE is highly polished is rather thin and should break with ease, and if the edge is shiny then it is dull), weilded by someone that has normal human strength will "downsize" the dragon slayer.

Also due to the brand, Gatsu lives in a world between the real world and the demonic world. And most spells aren't effective against him, especially spells to seal places from people. And considering the live hell that he's endured, ain't no spell is going to scare him (no hallucination would work, and due to the property of the brand, it'd likely make the hallucination real, and he'd deal with it was easily as he does with the rest of his fights.).



That is a poor reason to say that Gatsu would lose.

No, we're saying the Discworld is working by a certain set of rules and by those rules Gatts as he has been observed falls into a certain role and by the rules pertaining this role he cannot win against certain other roles, one of which Carrot falls into.
The Discworld is all about those rules.

So a weaker, worse swordsman, with inferior equipment Carrot will win just because of roles? Gatsu's character kills the people that eats people of Carrots roles for breakfast.

[SirNitram]

So a weaker, worse swordsman, with inferior equipment Carrot will win just because of roles? Gatsu's character kills the people that eats people of Carrots roles for breakfast.

Except they don't have a Story around them. As I've shown, for a Discworldian, this is more powerful than 'oh, character shields'.

[DPDarkPrimus]

Actually... Carrot isn't that great of an unarmed fighter, since he utilizes the style of fighting by the Duke of... some hard to remember name.

Anyways, if someone with enough strength gets a blow on him, then it's all over. Sure, he can absorb a regular person's blow, and then knock them to hell, but if the person has exceptional strength...

(I'm basing this all off a bit near the end of The Fifth Elephent, if you must know.)

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Actually... Carrot isn't that great of an unarmed fighter, since he utilizes the style of fighting by the Duke of... some hard to remember name.

Anyways, if someone with enough strength gets a blow on him, then it's all over. Sure, he can absorb a regular person's blow, and then knock them to hell, but if the person has exceptional strength...

(I'm basing this all off a bit near the end of The Fifth Elephent, if you must know.)

The... the what? Fifth Elephent?