WANDAVISION (SPOILERS, SWEETIE!)

[LadyTevar]

Hayward did say that "Under Sokovia Accords" he could take Vision's body and do what he wanted, didn't he?

[Khaat]

The Sokovia Accords reference was that reassembling/reactivating an AI (Vision) was a violation of the Accords (director A-hole was holding that over Wanda, even though he was the one trying to pull it off - eventually succeeding with the drone's residual Wanda-energy.)
Taking possession of Vision was more a "Our Jurisdiction" thing: S.W.O.R.D. does stand for Sentient Weapon Observation Response Division, which sounds very Since-Ultron-Is-Dead-That-Leaves-Just-Vision focused agency.

[Gandalf]

As I recall, the Sokovia Accord document was large enough to act as a doorstop. It may be that there are bits in their to regulate technology and devices in order to cover whatever Stark comes up with next without granting any rights of personhood to any AI. In which case they would apply to Vision as a device and not a person.

Truth is, we just don't know. It's not something that has been dealt with that we've seen.

Vision did sign the Accords, along with the rest of Team Superpowered Dick Cheney. So presumably he has some legal autonomy.

I could see Stark buying him legal personhood between the films.

[Darth Yan]

Hayward wanted Vision rebooted, wanted Vision as his own personal Weapons Platform. Wanda wouldn't do it, and then suddenly there's Westview with a new Vision walking around. HE WANTS VISION UNDER HIS CONTROL. Why? Maybe he wants Vision to the be Ultron that Tony dreamed about, one that would be a protector/defender. We saw how that went, and Hayward is no Tony Stark.

Indeed. Hayward might be a bit more responsible with his killbot than Stark was.

Sudden thought: Hayward probably knows about Tony's Last Project, now in Spiderman's hands. Vision would be a good answer to that problem.

Makes sense. If a teenager is running around with such killing power, it makes sense to have something ready to go in case he goes Columbine.

Given how callous Hayward is about the whole thing (rather like General Ross) I rather doubt it. For all that Tony's a jackass he DOES genuinely want to help people and he is also capable of empathy. Tony was also willing to FIX his mistakes whereas Hayward would probably deny he even MADE one.

[LadyTevar]

Given how callous Hayward is about the whole thing (rather like General Ross) I rather doubt it. For all that Tony's a jackass he DOES genuinely want to help people and he is also capable of empathy. Tony was also willing to FIX his mistakes whereas Hayward would probably deny he even MADE one.

So far I see Hayward denying all his mistakes and trying to blame it all on Wanda.

[Coop D'etat]

As I recall, the Sokovia Accord document was large enough to act as a doorstop. It may be that there are bits in their to regulate technology and devices in order to cover whatever Stark comes up with next without granting any rights of personhood to any AI. In which case they would apply to Vision as a device and not a person.

Truth is, we just don't know. It's not something that has been dealt with that we've seen.

Vision did sign the Accords, along with the rest of Team Superpowered Dick Cheney. So presumably he has some legal autonomy.

I could see Stark buying him legal personhood between the films.

I'd be amused if The Vision isn't technically a citizen, but is incorporated.

[Solauren]

As I recall, the Sokovia Accord document was large enough to act as a doorstop. It may be that there are bits in their to regulate technology and devices in order to cover whatever Stark comes up with next without granting any rights of personhood to any AI. In which case they would apply to Vision as a device and not a person.

Truth is, we just don't know. It's not something that has been dealt with that we've seen.

Vision did sign the Accords, along with the rest of Team Superpowered Dick Cheney. So presumably he has some legal autonomy.

I could see Stark buying him legal personhood between the films.

I'd be amused if The Vision isn't technically a citizen, but is incorporated.

That IS something I can see Tony Stark doing. Especially since Corporations are considered 'Legal Entities' with many of the same rights as citizens.

[Gandalf]

So that was a decent finale. The highlight was Vision winning by having an argument with himself. The lowlight was nobody really acknowledging Wanda's inherent monstrousness in what she did to the town.

[Broomstick]

How do you hold someone as powerful as Wanda accountable unless she's willing to cooperate? It's like jailing Superman - the only reason he's still in the cell is because he hasn't decided to break out.

Wanda's statement about the difference between her and Agatha does hold true - when Wanda did what she did there was a large factor of ignorance about just what it all entailed. When it finally sunk in what the costs and consequences were she did dismantle her false reality. She did not set out to hurt anyone. Agatha, on the other hand, knew that what she did would cause harm and did it anyway, from sucking the life out of others in the past to repeatedly lying to gain the power of a reality-warper.

In the end, Wanda was right - telling the townfolks why she did what she did, hurting them unintentionally, and what it cost her to undo it all would not alter how those townsfolk would feel about her. There isn't really a way for her to make amends. The authorities were in a better position to help those people than she was. In the end, she goes off with the intention of 1) removing herself from society so she won't hurt others and 2) studying to find out more about her power, so she can use it more responsibly going forward. It may not be as satisfying as her being put on trial, or giving everyone a pony, or whatever, but it's actually, to me, a morally satisfying conclusion to the story. No, her punishment might not be adequate compared to the crime/damage but she understands she did something terrible and is taking steps so that she does not accidentally cause such harm again in the future. That's a pretty good character arc.

I'm guessing she'll get mentored by Dr. Strange and that this might lead in to the Multiverse of Madness movie.

[Galvatron]

I'm guessing she'll get mentored by Dr. Strange and that this might lead in to the Multiverse of Madness movie.

Maybe, but the post-credits scene would seem to indicate that she won't need a mentor.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

It's also building towards a Captain Marvel sequel with that Skrull appearing pointing straight up. I wonder where White!Vision went in the end?

[Batman]

I'm guessing she'll get mentored by Dr. Strange and that this might lead in to the Multiverse of Madness movie.

Maybe, but the post-credits scene would seem to indicate that she won't need a mentor.

I dunno. She's definitely getting a 'hold' on her powers but that doesn't mean she won't need a mentor on where to 'point' them. That book AstralWanda was reading looked suspiciously like the one Agatha mentioned and later read from, and that one did not sound like a book Nice Witches should be reading.

[GuppyShark]

It's also building towards a Captain Marvel sequel with that Skrull appearing pointing straight up. I wonder where White!Vision went in the end?

Disney, just give us a Photon movie already. They didn't do a female led or black led movie until Phase 3, get an easy run on the board for Phase 4.

"White" Vision was conspicuous in his absence after his discussion with "Scarlet" Vision. I guess the explanation will be that he needed time to process the new data he had unlocked.

Finally, Wanda's threat to Agatha now makes zero sense because she cancelled the Hex. Agatha is now free to go back to doing what she was doing.

[Batman]

She cancelled the large 'Westview' hex. Who says she didn't leave a tiny 'Agatha only' one in place? That was the impression I got but I agree that could've been explained better.
And DID she nix the hex or did she merely move it from one superimposed on a real town to a 'completely' fictional one Agatha is now stuck in?

[LadyTevar]

Yes, I was crying at the end, so was my sis-in-law, and I think my brother had a sniffle.

Now... great fight between Agatha and Wanda. Like Agatha, I thought the eldritch blasts Wanda was throwing that hit the Hex were just misses. When the Runes popped up, there was a collective cheer from the three of us. I loved Wanda's little smirk when Agatha called her cruel. Agatha created Agnes, "the nosy neighbor", to fit inside Wanda's Hex. Now, Agatha's completely trapped inside that personna, a personna who was 'born in Westview' and who now has no reason to ever leave it. I'm sure Wanda left mind blocks to make sure Agnes wouldn't ever think of leaving.

My brother recognized "Ship of Theseus" logic puzzle immediately. While I was hoping for a merger, I'm ok with Vision getting his memories back, although him simply flying away and having no closure bothers me. I want to know where he went.

The Book Agatha showed Wanda, and read to her about the Scarlet Witch destroying the word? It's the BOOK OF DARKHOLD, aka the Book of the Damned as Agatha called it.
In MCU-TV, it's been seen in "Agents of SHIELD" and "Runaways", and it's Very Bad News. In SHIELD, Ghost Rider threw it into Hell after it was used to create the Alt-Reality the Agents were stuck in. In "Runaways", Morgan le Fey was going to use it to bring The Dark Dimension to Earth, but it vanished when she was defeated. How Agatha got it is unknown.
In the Comics-verse, The Darkhold was the personal spellbook of the Elder God Chthon, and the Necronomicon was a cheap rip-off of the info inside it. It's been mentioned in "Conan" and "Red Sonja" comics. Morgan le Fey was the one to bind it into book-form. Dracula tried to steal it from the Vatican, and it's responsible for Jack Russell's lycanthropy curse. And this is just the 616 versions of it!

[Gandalf]

How do you hold someone as powerful as Wanda accountable unless she's willing to cooperate? It's like jailing Superman - the only reason he's still in the cell is because he hasn't decided to break out.

She had a weird collar on in the raft, so maybe that could indicate they had some means of suppressing her powers?

Hopefully SWORD or whoever gets a lot of anti-magic funding and tools.

Wanda's statement about the difference between her and Agatha does hold true - when Wanda did what she did there was a large factor of ignorance about just what it all entailed. When it finally sunk in what the costs and consequences were she did dismantle her false reality. She did not set out to hurt anyone. Agatha, on the other hand, knew that what she did would cause harm and did it anyway, from sucking the life out of others in the past to repeatedly lying to gain the power of a reality-warper.

In the end, Wanda was right - telling the townfolks why she did what she did, hurting them unintentionally, and what it cost her to undo it all would not alter how those townsfolk would feel about her. There isn't really a way for her to make amends. The authorities were in a better position to help those people than she was. In the end, she goes off with the intention of 1) removing herself from society so she won't hurt others and 2) studying to find out more about her power, so she can use it more responsibly going forward. It may not be as satisfying as her being put on trial, or giving everyone a pony, or whatever, but it's actually, to me, a morally satisfying conclusion to the story. No, her punishment might not be adequate compared to the crime/damage but she understands she did something terrible and is taking steps so that she does not accidentally cause such harm again in the future. That's a pretty good character arc.

I'm guessing she'll get mentored by Dr. Strange and that this might lead in to the Multiverse of Madness movie.

Agatha being maybe worse doesn't excuse Wanda's mass mind rape.

Also, if Wanda was truly ignorant of what she was doing, then she's even worse and a pretty solid argument for the Sokovia Accords. Too bad they were so horrifically implemented.

[Gandalf]

That IS something I can see Tony Stark doing. Especially since Corporations are considered 'Legal Entities' with many of the same rights as citizens.

It would be amusing if Stark registered Vision as a subsidiary of Stark Enterprises, and parked some money with Vision Inc to beat taxes. It would explain how they had a property, car and the like.

If the Avengers are a registered non-profit NGO effectively run out of Stark properties, perhaps the entire income of Stark Enterprises could be tax free.

[Darth Yan]

How do you hold someone as powerful as Wanda accountable unless she's willing to cooperate? It's like jailing Superman - the only reason he's still in the cell is because he hasn't decided to break out.

She had a weird collar on in the raft, so maybe that could indicate they had some means of suppressing her powers?

Hopefully SWORD or whoever gets a lot of anti-magic funding and tools.

Wanda's statement about the difference between her and Agatha does hold true - when Wanda did what she did there was a large factor of ignorance about just what it all entailed. When it finally sunk in what the costs and consequences were she did dismantle her false reality. She did not set out to hurt anyone. Agatha, on the other hand, knew that what she did would cause harm and did it anyway, from sucking the life out of others in the past to repeatedly lying to gain the power of a reality-warper.

In the end, Wanda was right - telling the townfolks why she did what she did, hurting them unintentionally, and what it cost her to undo it all would not alter how those townsfolk would feel about her. There isn't really a way for her to make amends. The authorities were in a better position to help those people than she was. In the end, she goes off with the intention of 1) removing herself from society so she won't hurt others and 2) studying to find out more about her power, so she can use it more responsibly going forward. It may not be as satisfying as her being put on trial, or giving everyone a pony, or whatever, but it's actually, to me, a morally satisfying conclusion to the story. No, her punishment might not be adequate compared to the crime/damage but she understands she did something terrible and is taking steps so that she does not accidentally cause such harm again in the future. That's a pretty good character arc.

I'm guessing she'll get mentored by Dr. Strange and that this might lead in to the Multiverse of Madness movie.

Agatha being maybe worse doesn't excuse Wanda's mass mind rape.

Also, if Wanda was truly ignorant of what she was doing, then she's even worse and a pretty solid argument for the Sokovia Accords. Too bad they were so horrifically implemented.

Given that Hayward is largely responsible for what happened by being a callous asshole it feels weird that you're defending him.
As Tvtropes sums up

Director Hayward has many fans who paint him as a Designated Villain, with the main argument being that Wanda took Westview hostage due to a mental breakdown and he is trying to stop her. This argument conveniently ignores the fact that Hayward violating Vision's will (and according to Jimmy, the Sokovia Accords as well) to rebuild him as Project Cataract and refusing to let Wanda give him a funeral are what caused her mental breakdown in the first place. Furthermore, his main priorities upon learning of the situation in Westview are not rescuing the townsfolk, but using the anomaly to complete Project Cataract and killing Wanda so that the world thinks she was the one who violated Vision's will and revived him. To say nothing of his attempt at the twins' lives (twice), or the monumentally stupid decision to have an FBI agentnote And one who was sent there to investigate the disappearance of someone under the Witness Protection Program, mind you. falsely arrested.


Frankly, this whole mess could have been averted if he hadn't been so heartless.

And there is a difference between acting out of grief and ignorance and acting out of malice.

The difference between Wanda and Agatha is the difference between Tony Stark and Thanos. For all that Tony is a deeply flawed man he DOES care about others is willing to admit when he's wrong and actually wants to do right by the world. Thanos is motivated by a need for validation and lacks the ability to truly care, hence why when he's confronted with proof that he's wrong he decides to burn everything down in a temper tantrum.

One's a flawed but ultimately good man. The other's a sociopathic monster.

[Broomstick]

Agatha being maybe worse doesn't excuse Wanda's mass mind rape.

No, but it could be a mitigating circumstance.

After all, while we don't excuse accidentally killing someone we don't punish unintentional manslaughter to the same level as intentional, premeditated killing of a human being. Wanda caused harm and there should be consequences.

She is somewhat like a Typhoid Mary - capable of doing great harm, but potentially controllable. All Typhoid Mary had to do was to refrain from actions that could endanger others, otherwise she could have lived in society. But she refused to stop endangering others and eventually had to locked up for life to protect others. That's Agatha Harkness - all she had to do was not use her magic to hurt others, but she refused and kept hurting people. Wanda, however, is like Typhoid Mary when it was first discovered she was an asymptomatic carrier of the disease - at that point she had, in fact, killed people (I don't think Wanda killed anyone in Westview, although she sure traumatized the fuck out of them so who knows if that's better or worse) but it had been without intent. Wanda is at the point where she has to decide whether to behave in a manner that allows her to be in society, or if she's going to be an outlaw.

Also, if Wanda was truly ignorant of what she was doing, then she's even worse and a pretty solid argument for the Sokovia Accords. Too bad they were so horrifically implemented.

After Westview yes, there are grounds for saying Wanda needs to be restrained. Up until that point, however, I don't think she'd done anything that could be considered criminal within the context of the MCU. Pre-accords there were no rules regarding what she could do with her "enhancements", especially within the borders of Sokovia itself where arguably she was defending her home against invaders (it gets fuzzy, what with Hydra not being part of a government). We don't know her status after Endgame - she'd been "dead" for five years, brought back, and so far as I can see she hadn't done anything wrong in that time period just after the un-Snap. Until Westview. That was when she really, unambiguously crossed the line.

I think, though, that at the tail-end of the Trauma Conga Line she'd just suffered - including having to kill her loved one, seeing him brought back, then watching him get killed again, then, attempting to fulfill his wish to be buried, seeing him being subjected to his worst post-death fear - and note that she did NOT at that point lash out but left SWORD peacefully - she had a breakdown. Granted, that doesn't excuse what she did, either, but I think there is an argument that she wasn't functioning as an entirely sane person at that point. She had never, up to that point, displayed that level of power before. I don't think she was aware what the consequences of her action would be up to that point.

So yes, she should suffer some consequences for what she did. I don't think she deserves to be locked away forever at this point, though (Agatha does - she has a multi-century history of deliberate mind-rape, coercion, and murder). What Wanda needs is some serious grief therapy, probably something for PTSD, and someone like Dr. Strange to evaluate and help her control her power - guarding the planet against that sort of metaphysical threat is his business after all. If it is possible for her to compensate the citizens of Westview for what was done maybe that could be arranged, but for them the best to be offered might be want she did at the end of this series - just get the hell out of their lives. Not everything can be fixed. After all that is when "lock her up" vs. "let her into society again" can be decided.

Explaining why Wanda did what she did is not the same as excusing what she did.

[Solauren]

That IS something I can see Tony Stark doing. Especially since Corporations are considered 'Legal Entities' with many of the same rights as citizens.

It would be amusing if Stark registered Vision as a subsidiary of Stark Enterprises, and parked some money with Vision Inc to beat taxes. It would explain how they had a property, car and the like.

If the Avengers are a registered non-profit NGO effectively run out of Stark properties, perhaps the entire income of Stark Enterprises could be tax free.

I can also see that too. And no one is going to complain if the money saved from taxes goes back into things like global defense, funding the Avengers, and charitable work.

Tony was smart enough to set things up just like that, and also as a way of politely saying "I'm better at running things then the government is."

[LadyTevar]

As for arresting her and punishing her, that might be hard. There's some fan-based talk that she's back in Sokovia for the end-credits scene.

[Broomstick]

Wouldn't that be Mount Wundergore, the supposed birthplace of her and Pietro?

[LadyTevar]

Wouldn't that be Mount Wundergore, the supposed birthplace of her and Pietro?

That's the rumor, yes.
And the rumor continues with the house at the foot of the mountain belongs to Bova, who raised them.
Of course, Bova was a Evolved Cow created by the High Evolutionary, so I doubt MCU is using that bit.

[LadyTevar]

Oh... my Brother, Sis-in-Law, and I have had a disagreement over Rambeau's end credit.

I said that her "mother's old friend" is Fury.
Brother says the "Old Friend" is Capt. Marvel.
Sis-in-law says it's the Head Skrull, who was at their house in the Marvel movie. (And that's how I found out that she'd not seen Spiderman: Far from Home's and its end credits.)

So, folks, let's brainstorm. Is the 'old friend" going to be Fury, Marvel, or Skrull?
Fury and the Skrull, of course, are all up on the spaceship parked in Lagrange orbit. Marvel has been checking in all through the Blip, but considering Rambeau's anger at her, would Rambeau want to see Marvel?

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Why would Rambeau be angry with Danvers? Did I miss something?