The Federation: Wealth measured by reputation/social standing?

PST: discuss Star Trek without "versus" arguments.

Moderator: Vympel

Post Reply
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

The Federation: Wealth measured by reputation/social standing?

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Pulled this analysis off of Reddit (r/DaystromInstitute), and found its case quite compelling, overall:

https://reddit.com/r/DaystromInstitute/ ... l_capital/
The currency of the future is social capital.
To preface: I've been watching Picard and immensely enjoying seeing my favourite Captain back on TV again...seeing Picard and Data in "proper" TNG uniforms made me feel all warm'n'fuzzy, like seeing dear friends again after a very long absence. But in watching PIC, I had a thought about the stark difference between today's Picard showing up at a planet and getting the cold shoulder, versus TNG's Captain showing up and getting the red carpet treatment:

In the 24th century, your personal wealth and power is measured by the amount of social clout you wield and the breadth of your reputation.

I think a generally-accepted premise of the Trek universe is that the Federation exists in a post-scarcity time (and for the moment, let's keep this confined to 'central Federation worlds', and leave out the borderlands and edge cases like DS9 and its gold-pressed latinum, etc.) On Earth and other 'core' worlds, there is no poverty, there is no hunger, there is no want - every Federation citizen is looked-after and provided for.

But people still work. Picard has his vineyard, Joseph Sisko has his restaurant, Jake Sisko is working to become a reporter, Keiko O'Brien is a botanist, and of course all our main cast members are active, working members of Starfleet. If these people aren't getting paycheques, then why are they going to work? If you could get all of your needs met (by way of the Federation's utopian, post-scarcity society) and just go full hedonistic in a holodeck 24/7, then why wouldn't you? What is driving all of these people to go to work instead of being on holo-vacation every day for the rest of their lives?

I propose that the motivations that drive our favourite 24th century people aren't quite so different from those that drive 21st century people today; but instead of money being the thing in limited supply, it's social clout. Current-day people still continue to work even after they've made enough money to meet their basic needs, because in today's world having more money means you have more power (in the "to be able to" sense). Being money-richer than you need to be for survival provides you with the power to take time off work, or engage in leisure activities, or to tailor your lifestyle to better fit your specific preferences, or whatever you choose to spend that power on.

Turning back to the 24th century...if we assume for the moment that in the future, your reputation dictates your wealth, then our TNG-era Picard is filthy rich. He's known far and wide throughout the Federation for his career accomplishments (which I won't retread here), he's in command of Starfleet's flagship, and his voice carries an immense amount of weight with those in power. When TNG-era Picard goes into orbit around your planet, you put on your Sunday best and dust off the good china, because you've got a VIP on your doorstep and he's rich and powerful.

In contrast, look at the reception that PIC-era Picard gets when he shows up at Vashti aboard the La Sirena - they essentially screen his phone call and send him to voicemail. PIC-era Picard is dirt poor; he doesn't command any ship, let alone the flagship; he's had the door of Starfleet slammed in his face, he doesn't have the ear(s) of those in high-ranking positions...he's lost all his social clout. He's lost all his wealth and power.

I think this idea of "reputation as wealth" also explains why people still do real work in the real world, and not just play-work in the holodeck. If Trek people's only motivation for working was because they absolutely loved to do what they do professionally, then why not just do it in the holodeck to get all the pleasure from that activity with none of the unpleasant or dangerous parts? Joseph Sisko could cook with holographic food and not have dishes to clean up afterwards; Jake could write about anything his holodeck-imagination could dream up and never be in any actual danger from a war front; Keiko could tend to holo-plants that would always flower and bloom perfectly and never get her hands dirty, and none of our starship crews would ever be in harm's way. But holodeck activities would never generate real-world results that require skill and ability to achieve...and would therefore not burnish your reputation and increase your wealth.

In the Federation's post-scarcity economy, all of one's physical needs can be taken care of without difficulty. Replicators and Trek's apparently-infinite energy sources make short work of any tangible goods being in demand. But there is only so much reputation to go around. No matter how many widgets or gadgets people need or want to live their best lives in the Federation, only one person can be the top person in their field. Only a small group of people can be the best / most qualified / most knowledgeable / the recognized authorities in their area of expertise, whatever that area is. This is where scarcity still drives the economic activities of the future; this is why people still go to work: to be rich and powerful by way of their personal or professional reputation.

TL;DR: the currency that drives the Federation's economy isn't something tangible and replicator-able, like cash...it's reputation and clout.
Now, I do think there are other reasons some people might choose to work, besides necessity- the sense of fulfillment that comes from actually doing something in the real world, a sense of duty, even the thrill that real world risk adds. But I think that this analysis largely hits the mark. Of course, the idea has been alluded to before in discussions, that higher rank may come with expanded privileges in the Federation, but this gives it an interesting twist. That social standing, likely as a result of social service, is the path to power and luxury in the Federation, even as basic needs are largely provided for.

Edit: It also makes me wonder if the Federation's culture is really that different from the Klingons'. The Klingons gain prestige as warriors by following the Klingon honour code- while Federation citizens gain privilege by acting "honourably" within the Federation's social code (ie engaging in some form of accepted public service).
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
aerius
Charismatic Cult Leader
Posts: 14795
Joined: 2002-08-18 07:27pm

Re: The Federation: Wealth measured by reputation/social standing?

Post by aerius »

Plausible. The Federation is like the PRC where you get a social credit score for both conforming to the party rules and working towards advancing the goals of the party. Picard tanked his social credit score when he basically gave Starfleet a giant FU with his resignation and then sitting around on his farm for the next 14 years.
Image
aerius: I'll vote for you if you sleep with me. :)
Lusankya: Deal!
Say, do you want it to be a threesome with your wife? Or a foursome with your wife and sister-in-law? I'm up for either. :P
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: The Federation: Wealth measured by reputation/social standing?

Post by The Romulan Republic »

aerius wrote: 2020-02-19 07:20pm Plausible. The Federation is like the PRC where you get a social credit score for both conforming to the party rules and working towards advancing the goals of the party. Picard tanked his social credit score when he basically gave Starfleet a giant FU with his resignation and then sitting around on his farm for the next 14 years.
Well, aside from the notable lack of disappeared activists and concentration camps for religious/ethnic minorities in the Federation.

The Federation's great achievement, socially, is arguably that it seems to have figured out how to largely achieve compliance through soft rather than hard power.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 16351
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: The Federation: Wealth measured by reputation/social standing?

Post by Gandalf »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2020-02-19 07:22pmWell, aside from the notable lack of disappeared activists and concentration camps for religious/ethnic minorities in the Federation.
Given that they have a lot of space and resources, it might be easier to encourage "dissident" populations to have their own colonies.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: The Federation: Wealth measured by reputation/social standing?

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Gandalf wrote: 2020-02-19 08:44pm
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2020-02-19 07:22pmWell, aside from the notable lack of disappeared activists and concentration camps for religious/ethnic minorities in the Federation.
Given that they have a lot of space and resources, it might be easier to encourage "dissident" populations to have their own colonies.
True, and that fits the Federation ethos pretty well, although as the Marquis situation showed, there obviously is a limit to how much latitude colonies are given.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 18670
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Re: The Federation: Wealth measured by reputation/social standing?

Post by Rogue 9 »

Someone watched The Orville before writing this; Commander Grayson gives this exact explanation to someone at some point regarding work in the Planetary Union's moneyless economy. :razz:
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician
User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 18670
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Re: The Federation: Wealth measured by reputation/social standing?

Post by Rogue 9 »

Ghetto edit: It occurred to me. The scene in question was in the episode where she's trying to get Lt. Lamarr to take the job of chief engineer and tries to talk him into it by pointing out that the Planetary Union's currency is social standing and he'd have a lot more as chief engineer who applied himself than as a goof-off navigator.
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician
Adam Reynolds
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2354
Joined: 2004-03-27 04:51am

Re: The Federation: Wealth measured by reputation/social standing?

Post by Adam Reynolds »

This is almost certainly the case. If you want a lot more detail there is a fairly recent book called Trekonomics that covers the idea more. It might be where the author of that post got the idea.

As a random thought exercise I enjoy playing with, I've recently been thinking about fictional characters from other series and how they'd interact in such an economy. It actually works surprising well for most characters, as even a character like Iron Man would be fine in this context, with his clout a result of his intelligence and effectiveness as an engineer. The only real downside is that you have to actually give antagonists an ideological or personal motivation instead of a simple financial one. You can't have a simple antagonist who is evil for financial reasons. You also can't really have heroic mercenaries or characters in debt, unless the debt is reputational. So Han Solo doesn't actually work cleanly.
Rogue 9 wrote: 2020-02-20 06:54pm Ghetto edit: It occurred to me. The scene in question was in the episode where she's trying to get Lt. Lamarr to take the job of chief engineer and tries to talk him into it by pointing out that the Planetary Union's currency is social standing and he'd have a lot more as chief engineer who applied himself than as a goof-off navigator.
Aren't navigators actually the third in command in reality?
User avatar
Feil
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1944
Joined: 2006-05-17 05:05pm
Location: Illinois, USA

Re: The Federation: Wealth measured by reputation/social standing?

Post by Feil »

So do you think Captain Picard can write his favorite Shakespearean actors a check for 10,000 Reputations to have them come perform for him? If he wants to make his vineyard bigger, can he go to the Reputation bank and get a Reputation loan?
User avatar
Eternal_Freedom
Castellan
Posts: 10399
Joined: 2010-03-09 02:16pm
Location: CIC, Battlestar Temeraire

Re: The Federation: Wealth measured by reputation/social standing?

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Not is so many words, but yes, quite possibly. Being asked to come and perform by the legendary Jean-Luc Picard would enhance the actor's own reputation and standing. The vineyard example is more difficult, that would probably involve speaking to his neighbors and/or whoever owns/possesses the land he wants to take over and come to some agreement with them. "Reputation" isn't a direct substitute for conventional currency.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
Post Reply