UCP wins Alberta elections.

[The Romulan Republic]

Score another one for the far Right. Not exactly unexpected, but the size of the margin is dispiriting, and makes me feel even more concerned about this fall's Federal election:

https://ww.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/ ... -1.5099183

Jason Kenney has capped his three-year goal of uniting Alberta's political right, leading his United Conservative Party to a majority election win over the province's first NDP government.

"Today Albertans have chosen hope over fear, and unity over division," a jubilant Kenney told supporters in Calgary on Tuesday night. "They have chosen free enterprise values over the politics of resentment.

"Friends, tonight the silent majority has spoken."

Oh, that's some priceless Orwellian doublespeak there. In fact, Alberta chose resentment of women and foreigners and minorities over unity. Of course, we all know "division" and "the politics of resentment" are code for "SJW WAR ON WHITE MEN!" Because how dare women or minorities be resentful of continued discrimination, or demand an equal piece of the pie.

[Coop D'etat]

Resentment of foriegners, women and minorities weren't significant factors in the Alberta campaign.

Resentment of the Federal Government, Vancouverites, Quebec and Montreal were highly significant factors. The whole campaign turned on two competing visions of how to best secure Albertan interests in a federation that many Albertans feel takes them for granted. Notley pushing responsible cooperation backed with firmness if necessary, Kenney pushing a program of universal aggression.

The white male bit of resentment doesn't occupy all that much mindshare in Albertan populist conservatism. The rural ultra conservatives conceive of themselves on religious (ultra-Protestant fanaticism on American lines) rather than ethnic concerns, the Calgary business crowd does not give a good goddamn about skin colour, they care about money. The local racism is against First Nations, not so much immigrants (hardly anyone resents someone for coming to Alberta to take a job, a good half the population of all skin colours imaginable came here to get a job, its a unifying thing).


So resentment factors into it massively, but not in the simplistic ways you think it does importing an outside ideological lens to these matters. Alberta politics aren't American politics and if you frame everything in the world in Democrat versus Republican terms you won't understand it one bit.


The big missed opportunity for Albertan progressives was the lack of support for their program they got in left wing circles outside the province, which by and large spat on the overtures made from Edmonton under Notley. She got the Federal government effectively on board for pipeline building, which was an underrated win, but couldn't keep governments in British Columbia and Quebec from taking every step possible to prevent Albertan access to the sea for exports, so her decarbonization in return for pipelines strategy was deemed a loser and median opinion went towards a campaign of aggressively asserting Provincial interests by any means necessary.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'm sure there are other factors, but I mean, its not exactly a secret that the UCP has some issues with racism. Just saying...

But either way, voters picked resentment over good policy. They'll pay for that choice soon enough, as programs meant to help the poor and middle class get eroded.

[Coop D'etat]

I'm sure there are other factors, but I mean, its not exactly a secret that the UCP has some issues with racism. Just saying...

But either way, voters picked resentment over good policy. They'll pay for that choice soon enough, as programs meant to help the poor and middle class get eroded.

UCP almost never gets embarrassing racism eruptions. They frequently get embarrassing anti-gay or anti-abortion eruptions. There's a reason for this, the local conservative movement is organized on pro-religious and pro-business lines representing their foundational interest groups (rural south Alberta religous kooks and Calgary suits). This election represented a return to that previous power structure that the old PC dynasty relied upon, after the previous two elections had Edmonton and Calgary come together to elect more moderate governments and shut rural Alberta out of power.

And in the grand tradition of Albertan conservative parties in power, they plan to keep funding everything just the same, hoping that the price of oil will pick up and thus royalty revenues will pick up the short fall. There really isn't much by the way of service cuts in the UCP platform.

[The Romulan Republic]

UCP racism: https://pressprogress.ca/ucp-candidate- ... ages-show/

One of the star candidates for Jason Kenney’s United Conservative Party argued white supremacist terrorists face a double-standard compared to Islamic terrorists and echoed white nationalist rhetoric in a Facebook conversation following a 2017 terror attack perpetrated by a neo-Nazi in Charlottesville, Virginia.

Caylan Ford, who is seeking to represent the riding of Calgary-Mountain View in the 2019 provincial election, also expressed anxiety over “the replacement of white peoples in their homelands” and suggested “Western culture” would collapse if “another race” takes over in Europe and North America.

The private Facebook Messenger messages, obtained exclusively by PressProgress, were supplied by a long-time Muslim conservative with deep ties to the party who requested anonymity citing the threat of retribution.

The authenticity of the messages was verified independently and original copies of the messages were reviewed in-person. The source also provided PressProgress with a sworn affidavit attesting Caylan Ford sent them the messages and that they “have not been altered or edited in any way.”

After PressProgress supplied her with copies of the messages, Ford did not deny authoring them but instead asked “who shared these statements with you?” Ford did not respond to subsequent e-mails asking if she intended to provide a statement or offer any additional context to her statements.

On August 15, 2017, two days after a neo-Nazi drove a car into a crowd of anti-racist counter-protesters at the Charlottesville “Unite the Right” rally, the Muslim conservative says Ford attempted to engage them in a dialogue over Facebook Messenger in an attempt to find “common ground.”

The whistleblower said they chose to share the private messages because they say it shows Ford “flirting with white nationalism,” something that deeply disturbs them in the wake of last week’s deadly terror attacks on two mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand.

“After 50 Muslims were gunned down in New Zealand during peaceful prayer, does Jason Kenney really want a candidate who says white supremacists are misunderstood?”

“Kenney needs to disqualify her immediately,” they said. “These comments alone could ruin the campaign.”

Kenney, who handpicked Ford and invited her to move to Calgary from Ottawa to run as a UCP candidate, has praised her as “the personification of what I call a new generation of leadership.”

The UCP leader has invested substantial capital into promoting Ford – for months, she has been the only candidate Kenney is running sponsored ads for on his personal Facebook page.

While political leaders in Canada and around the world have denounced racism and anti-Muslim bigotry, Ford’s social media has so far remained silent on the subject – although the Facebook Messenger messages may shed some light on her thinking.

In one exchange about the Charlottesville terror attack, the UCP candidate argued white supremacist terrorists face a double-standard compared to other terrorists.

“When the perpetrator is an Islamist, the denunciations are intermingled with breathless assurances that they do not represent Islam, that Islam is a religion of peace, etc.” Ford wrote.

“When the terrorists are white supremacists, that kind of soul-searching or attempts to understand the sources of their radicalization or their perverse moral reasoning is beyond the pale.”

Ford complained that “anyone who shares even some of their views” gets “painted with the same brush.”

Although Ford offered “strong borders and immigration control” as a few examples of “views” a respectable, high-brow conservative might share with a white supremacist terrorist, she went on to share a few others.

“I am somehow saddened by the demographic replacement of white peoples in their homelands,” Ford wrote, echoing a narrative common with white nationalists.

She added: “it’s clear that it will not be a peaceful transition.”

The “great replacement” is a common cry of French far-right leader Marine LePen’s Front National, which borrowed the term from a conspiracy theory popularized by French author Renaud Camus which falsely claims a shadowy cabal of global elites are deliberately replacing white Europeans with Muslim immigrants.

The far-right terrorist in New Zealand last week left a manifesto that was also titled “the great replacement,” echoing many of the same themes.

That’s not the only thing Ford says makes her feel “sad.”

Later in the conversation, Ford declared “I think it is unlikely that Western culture will survive without Western peoples” if “another race” becomes dominant.

“Why would another race want to cast away their own culture to adopt someone’s elses,” Ford wrote.

Kenney’s party has previously disqualified two UCP nomination candidates over anti-Muslim social media activity: Todd Beasley and Maureen Gow Zelmer.

Another nomination candidate, Lance Coulter, was disqualified after three UCP candidates were photographed partying with members of the Soldiers of Odin, a far-right hate group.

“A polite racist is still a racist,” UCP executive director Janice Harrington stated in a letter to Coulter at the time explaining the reasoning for his disqualification.

The UCP also banned Adam Strashok, an anti-Semitic, white nationalist who ran the call centre for Kenney’s leadership campaign, leading the UCP leader to promise he would create a special online database to track racist extremists inside his party.

Muslim communities in Alberta faced several hate-motivated incidents last year, notably including an arson attack at a mosque in Edson and members of the Soldiers of Odin harassing worshippers at an Edmonton-area mosque.

Most recently, hate mail emblazoned with a UCP logo was sent to another Edmonton-area mosque.

So yeah. The homophobia and anti-abortion stuff you mentioned is just pilling on, at that point.

As to the economic stuff... Eh, maybe I'm just jaded, but I've seen a pattern when conservative governments get elected, and no its not just in the US. So I don't expect better of the UCP. I hope that you're right and I'm wrong, I really do, but I've seen too many Right wing governments given the benefit of the doubt and then go for hard line policies that hurt everyone who isn't rich, male, Christian, straight, and white to be feeling charitable any more.

[Coop D'etat]

Look, this is a situation where your lack of local knowledge is painfully apparent.

Would a UCP government be a painful disaster for many, many, reasons. Absolutley.

They just aren't the reasons you're imagining them to be. Think more in terms of hasseling the gays for no reason, kicking at the foundations of Confederation for no productive purpose, pointless kabuki theatre fights with Ottawa, random antagonism of First Nations all are on the menu. I just wouldn't expect demonization of immigrants or attacks on woman's issues. Those just aren't in the local political playbook, they aren't issues that gain traction for right wing politics.

[The Romulan Republic]

Look, this is a situation where your lack of local knowledge is painfully apparent.

Would a UCP government be a painful disaster for many, many, reasons. Absolutley.

They just aren't the reasons you're imagining them to be. Think more in terms of hasseling the gays for no reason, kicking at the foundations of Confederation for no productive purpose, pointless kabuki theatre fights with Ottawa, random antagonism of First Nations all are on the menu. I just wouldn't expect demonization of immigrants or attacks on woman's issues. Those just aren't in the local political playbook, they aren't issues that gain traction for right wing politics.

You yourself mentioned anti-abortion stuff, which falls under "attacks on womens' issues". Antagonizing First Nations falls under racism (not anti-immigrant, no, but definitely racism), in addition to the examples I cited above. As for attacks on the foundations of Confederation... so you're saying they're proto-secessionists? That's if anything even worse, though I'm not really surprised.

I mean, I am sure there are Alberta-specific ways they will suck I'm unaware of, but I expect they'll also suck in all the usual ways.

Edit: I do tend to view the Right as a single organism to some extent, which crosses international boundaries. There are reasons for that. Even leaving aside cases of direct collusion, which don't apply here, we live in a globalized world. The same memes and propaganda that get people out to vote for Trump get read by Canadians. We have seen a global surge in far Right movements taking political power, very often in sympathy (and in some cases in open alliance) with one another. And we have seen a surge in Right-wing politics in Canada since Trump took office, likely in part due to being embolden by Trump and Trumpism. So while these parties are not all identical, it is also not entirely without merit to regard them as interconnected parts of a global movement.

[Tribble]

Look, this is a situation where your lack of local knowledge is painfully apparent.

Would a UCP government be a painful disaster for many, many, reasons. Absolutley.

They just aren't the reasons you're imagining them to be. Think more in terms of hasseling the gays for no reason, kicking at the foundations of Confederation for no productive purpose, pointless kabuki theatre fights with Ottawa, random antagonism of First Nations all are on the menu. I just wouldn't expect demonization of immigrants or attacks on woman's issues. Those just aren't in the local political playbook, they aren't issues that gain traction for right wing politics.

You yourself mentioned anti-abortion stuff, which falls under "attacks on womens' issues". Antagonizing First Nations falls under racism (not anti-immigrant, no, but definitely racism), in addition to the examples I cited above. As for attacks on the foundations of Confederation... so you're saying they're proto-secessionists? That's if anything even worse, though I'm not really surprised.

I mean, I am sure there are Alberta-specific ways they will suck I'm unaware of, but I expect they'll also suck in all the usual ways.

Edit: I do tend to view the Right as a single organism to some extent, which crosses international boundaries. There are reasons for that. Even leaving aside cases of direct collusion, which don't apply here, we live in a globalized world. The same memes and propaganda that get people out to vote for Trump get read by Canadians. We have seen a global surge in far Right movements taking political power, very often in sympathy (and in some cases in open alliance) with one another. And we have seen a surge in Right-wing politics in Canada since Trump took office, likely in part due to being embolden by Trump and Trumpism. So while these parties are not all identical, it is also not entirely without merit to regard them as interconnected parts of a global movement.

While those issues were in play, I never really got the sense that they were central to the UCP and the election campaign as a whole. It seemed more like what Coop D'etat was saying about Albertan resentment against the Feds, B.C. and Quebec.

Quite frankly I don't blame them. For a long time now the rest of Canada has been happily taking in Alberta oil revenue while simultaneously telling Albertans to go f*ck themselves at every opportunity. We love to preach about the evils of those nasty Albertans and their dirty oil... while taking in the revenue and importing oil from such lovely places as Saudi Arabia. We're against oil tanker traffic... if its Albertan. If not then that's perfectly fine, thank you very much. And it's clear now that electing left-wing governments make no real difference because other left wing governments will still happily throw them under the bus at every opportunity. The fact that can't even ship our own oil reserves in our own country and thus good parts of our country have to import our oil while the oil we produce has to be sold to the US at far below market rates is pathetic.

One wonders if Alberta would be better off joining the US at this point; most of the oil they ship goes through the US anyways, so they might as well get better value for it.

[aerius]

Clearly, Alberta just wants to be like Ontario. We voted in a Conservative government after that clown show of an NDP government in the early 90s, and Alberta is now doing the same. All you guys gotta do now is find a Ford family of your own and you'll be just like us!

[Tribble]

Clearly, Alberta just wants to be like Ontario. We voted in a Conservative government after that clown show of an NDP government in the early 90s, and Alberta is now doing the same. All you guys gotta do now is find a Ford family of your own and you'll be just like us!

To be fair, the Alberta NDP did everything they could to try and balance the needs of the economy with environmental concerns and a long term phase out of oil. It was the other left wingers that were the problem, namely BC, Quebec and the Feds (whose support was luke warm at best).

What a missed opportunity that was! If other progressives weren’t so busy throwing stones at Notley they may have realized they were in a prime position to gradually reshape Alberta’s economy into being something more environmentally friendly and sustainable.

[Coop D'etat]

Clearly, Alberta just wants to be like Ontario. We voted in a Conservative government after that clown show of an NDP government in the early 90s, and Alberta is now doing the same. All you guys gotta do now is find a Ford family of your own and you'll be just like us!

To be fair, the Alberta NDP did everything they could to try and balance the needs of the economy with environmental concerns and a long term phase out of oil. It was the other left wingers that were the problem, namely BC, Quebec and the Feds (whose support was luke warm at best).

What a missed opportunity that was! If other progressives weren’t so busy throwing stones at Notley they may have realized they were in a prime position to gradually reshape Alberta’s economy into being something more environmentally friendly and sustainable.

I don't think the feds deserve any of the blame on that, they pretty much did as much as they reasonably could under the circumstances trying to ride herd on the whole thing. They were the only ones trying to do things that weren't just in their narrow electoral interest with the backing they gave pipeline construction.

It's the coastal BCers and broader environment groups who have the most to answer for. Their purity pony approach to politics doesn't have a lick of strategic sense to it. These are people far happier having fratenal knife fights rather than do the hard work of meaningfully changing policy for the long term.

[The Romulan Republic]

Look, this is a situation where your lack of local knowledge is painfully apparent.

Would a UCP government be a painful disaster for many, many, reasons. Absolutley.

They just aren't the reasons you're imagining them to be. Think more in terms of hasseling the gays for no reason, kicking at the foundations of Confederation for no productive purpose, pointless kabuki theatre fights with Ottawa, random antagonism of First Nations all are on the menu. I just wouldn't expect demonization of immigrants or attacks on woman's issues. Those just aren't in the local political playbook, they aren't issues that gain traction for right wing politics.

You yourself mentioned anti-abortion stuff, which falls under "attacks on womens' issues". Antagonizing First Nations falls under racism (not anti-immigrant, no, but definitely racism), in addition to the examples I cited above. As for attacks on the foundations of Confederation... so you're saying they're proto-secessionists? That's if anything even worse, though I'm not really surprised.

I mean, I am sure there are Alberta-specific ways they will suck I'm unaware of, but I expect they'll also suck in all the usual ways.

Edit: I do tend to view the Right as a single organism to some extent, which crosses international boundaries. There are reasons for that. Even leaving aside cases of direct collusion, which don't apply here, we live in a globalized world. The same memes and propaganda that get people out to vote for Trump get read by Canadians. We have seen a global surge in far Right movements taking political power, very often in sympathy (and in some cases in open alliance) with one another. And we have seen a surge in Right-wing politics in Canada since Trump took office, likely in part due to being embolden by Trump and Trumpism. So while these parties are not all identical, it is also not entirely without merit to regard them as interconnected parts of a global movement.

While those issues were in play, I never really got the sense that they were central to the UCP and the election campaign as a whole. It seemed more like what Coop D'etat was saying about Albertan resentment against the Feds, B.C. and Quebec.

Quite frankly I don't blame them. For a long time now the rest of Canada has been happily taking in Alberta oil revenue while simultaneously telling Albertans to go f*ck themselves at every opportunity. We love to preach about the evils of those nasty Albertans and their dirty oil... while taking in the revenue and importing oil from such lovely places as Saudi Arabia. We're against oil tanker traffic... if its Albertan. If not then that's perfectly fine, thank you very much. And it's clear now that electing left-wing governments make no real difference because other left wing governments will still happily throw them under the bus at every opportunity. The fact that can't even ship our own oil reserves in our own country and thus good parts of our country have to import our oil while the oil we produce has to be sold to the US at far below market rates is pathetic.

One wonders if Alberta would be better off joining the US at this point; most of the oil they ship goes through the US anyways, so they might as well get better value for it.

Ugg, please tell me you're not a god damn Western secessionist. Those people are the absolute bottom of the barrel when it comes to Canadian politics, even ignoring that they also overlap heavily with the white nationalist/Neo-Nazi crowd (I know from personal experience, because my cousin is friends with some prominent advocates of separatism).

[Tribble]

You yourself mentioned anti-abortion stuff, which falls under "attacks on womens' issues". Antagonizing First Nations falls under racism (not anti-immigrant, no, but definitely racism), in addition to the examples I cited above. As for attacks on the foundations of Confederation... so you're saying they're proto-secessionists? That's if anything even worse, though I'm not really surprised.

I mean, I am sure there are Alberta-specific ways they will suck I'm unaware of, but I expect they'll also suck in all the usual ways.

Edit: I do tend to view the Right as a single organism to some extent, which crosses international boundaries. There are reasons for that. Even leaving aside cases of direct collusion, which don't apply here, we live in a globalized world. The same memes and propaganda that get people out to vote for Trump get read by Canadians. We have seen a global surge in far Right movements taking political power, very often in sympathy (and in some cases in open alliance) with one another. And we have seen a surge in Right-wing politics in Canada since Trump took office, likely in part due to being embolden by Trump and Trumpism. So while these parties are not all identical, it is also not entirely without merit to regard them as interconnected parts of a global movement.

While those issues were in play, I never really got the sense that they were central to the UCP and the election campaign as a whole. It seemed more like what Coop D'etat was saying about Albertan resentment against the Feds, B.C. and Quebec.

Quite frankly I don't blame them. For a long time now the rest of Canada has been happily taking in Alberta oil revenue while simultaneously telling Albertans to go f*ck themselves at every opportunity. We love to preach about the evils of those nasty Albertans and their dirty oil... while taking in the revenue and importing oil from such lovely places as Saudi Arabia. We're against oil tanker traffic... if its Albertan. If not then that's perfectly fine, thank you very much. And it's clear now that electing left-wing governments make no real difference because other left wing governments will still happily throw them under the bus at every opportunity. The fact that can't even ship our own oil reserves in our own country and thus good parts of our country have to import our oil while the oil we produce has to be sold to the US at far below market rates is pathetic.

One wonders if Alberta would be better off joining the US at this point; most of the oil they ship goes through the US anyways, so they might as well get better value for it.

Ugg, please tell me you're not a god damn Western secessionist. Those people are the absolute bottom of the barrel when it comes to Canadian politics, even ignoring that they also overlap heavily with the white nationalist/Neo-Nazi crowd (I know from personal experience, because my cousin is friends with some prominent advocates of separatism).

Oh for f*cks sakes.

If you disagree with the actual points I made above, feel free to debate those. However, if you wish to continue your assertion that i must somehow be a white nationalist / Neo Nazi sympathizer I demand you demonstrate on this board right now that is the case, and/or flag my comments to a Moderator for review. If you are unwilling and/or unable to do so I demand that you retract your assertions and apologize. I’m sure I’m not the only one who is getting sick of being accused of being a Neo Nazi whenever I have an opinion you disagree with.

[Jub]

Quite frankly I don't blame them. For a long time now the rest of Canada has been happily taking in Alberta oil revenue while simultaneously telling Albertans to go f*ck themselves at every opportunity. We love to preach about the evils of those nasty Albertans and their dirty oil... while taking in the revenue and importing oil from such lovely places as Saudi Arabia

Maybe if Alberta would have invested in other sources of revenue besides oil perhaps the province wouldn't have such an issue with things like carbon taxes and pipelines. Not to even mention that the methods in use are less than environmentally friendly and that the only thing standing between existing and cleaner methods are greedy businesses and a series of provincial governments unwilling to rock that particular boat.

BC, my home province, doesn't really benefit from equalization payments either having received the second least from transfer payments behind only what Alberta has received. Furthermore, Alberta has increased its incoming transfer payments by a large amount between '05-'06 and '15-'16 according to this paper, see specifically pages 21 to 23 for the information in question. So while you do spend a lot on equalization payments you also get a lot of other funding back and at a vastly increased rate compared to every province which isn't Ontario or Quebec.

As for importing Oil, we'd have to do that anyway unless Alberta has suddenly become a refiner of its own oil, which it hasn't. The plan is to ship the unfinished product to China for refinement so they can sell it back to us, which would still be importing Oil from a 'lovely place' as you put it.

So yeah, don't bring BC into this just because we've said no to your pipeline. We don't need the headaches it will cause us because, unlike Alberta, we're actually committed to being on the right side of climate change.

EDIT: Retracted a section about provincial debt levels and spending as, while Alberta going from 'debt free' in 2004 to a projected debt of $71.1 billion in 2020 is alarming BC can't exactly throw stones in that particular regard.

[The Romulan Republic]

While those issues were in play, I never really got the sense that they were central to the UCP and the election campaign as a whole. It seemed more like what Coop D'etat was saying about Albertan resentment against the Feds, B.C. and Quebec.

Quite frankly I don't blame them. For a long time now the rest of Canada has been happily taking in Alberta oil revenue while simultaneously telling Albertans to go f*ck themselves at every opportunity. We love to preach about the evils of those nasty Albertans and their dirty oil... while taking in the revenue and importing oil from such lovely places as Saudi Arabia. We're against oil tanker traffic... if its Albertan. If not then that's perfectly fine, thank you very much. And it's clear now that electing left-wing governments make no real difference because other left wing governments will still happily throw them under the bus at every opportunity. The fact that can't even ship our own oil reserves in our own country and thus good parts of our country have to import our oil while the oil we produce has to be sold to the US at far below market rates is pathetic.

One wonders if Alberta would be better off joining the US at this point; most of the oil they ship goes through the US anyways, so they might as well get better value for it.

Ugg, please tell me you're not a god damn Western secessionist. Those people are the absolute bottom of the barrel when it comes to Canadian politics, even ignoring that they also overlap heavily with the white nationalist/Neo-Nazi crowd (I know from personal experience, because my cousin is friends with some prominent advocates of separatism).

Oh for f*cks sakes.

If you disagree with the actual points I made above, feel free to debate those. However, if you wish to continue your assertion that i must somehow be a white nationalist / Neo Nazi sympathizer I demand you demonstrate on this board right now that is the case, and/or flag my comments to a Moderator for review. If you are unwilling and/or unable to do so I demand that you retract your assertions and apologize. I’m sure I’m not the only one who is getting sick of being accused of being a Neo Nazi whenever I have an opinion you disagree with.

I did not say you are a white supremacist or neo nazi sympathizer. I will neither defend, retract, nor apologize for a position I did not take. I asked if you are a Western separatist, because you expressed sympathy for Albertan resentment toward the Federal government, repeated Western separatist talking points about how the big bad Feds take money from Alberta, and suggested that Alberta should join the US. I noted that there is strong overlap between Western separatist and white nationalists/Neo-Nazis, but I did not call you one.

Do any of you dumb fucks actually read what I say, or do you just see my name attached to a post, and immediately assume I must be lying/hysterical/hypocritical without bothering to comprehend what I'm actually saying? Or are you just lying?

As to the rest of your points... maybe, like Jub said, Albert shouldn't be so dependent on an increasingly outdated and environmentally destructive resource?

[Tribble]

I did not say you are a white supremacist or neo nazi sympathizer. I will neither defend, retract, nor apologize for a position I did not take. I asked if you are a Western separatist, because you expressed sympathy for Albertan resentment toward the Federal government, repeated Western separatist talking points about how the big bad Feds take money from Alberta, and suggested that Alberta should join the US. I noted that there is strong overlap between Western separatist and white nationalists/Neo-Nazis, but I did not call you one.

Do any of you dumb fucks actually read what I say, or do you just see my name attached to a post, and immediately assume I must be lying/hysterical/hypocritical without bothering to comprehend what I'm actually saying? Or are you just lying?

Actually, I think that's exactly what you were implying; why else would you have phrased things that way? It would have more than sufficed to have asked whether or not I supported Alberta separating without throwing in the whole bit about them being "absolutely bottom of the barrel" and "overlapping heavily with the white nationalist/Neo-Nazi crowd".

How exactly were you expecting me to respond to that? Were you hoping for "Ya, you got me, I'm totally an Albertian separatist and love 'dem white nationalists /Neo Nazis, long live the Furher!"? Were you expecting me to start wasting my time defending myself from your needless bulls*it? Or were you just trolling and/or being wayyyyy overdramatic, in which case congrats?


To answer your question btw, I don't think Alberta should separate; where perhaps I differ from others is that I acknowledge there are potential benefits if they left (and joined the US (namely that they would likely get a better price for their oil) , though I feel the consequences outweigh the benefits.

Maybe if Alberta would have invested in other sources of revenue besides oil perhaps the province wouldn't have such an issue with things like carbon taxes and pipelines. Not to even mention that the methods in use are less than environmentally friendly and that the only thing standing between existing and cleaner methods are greedy businesses and a series of provincial governments unwilling to rock that particular boat.

BC, my home province, doesn't really benefit from equalization payments either having received the second least from transfer payments behind only what Alberta has received. Furthermore, Alberta has increased its incoming transfer payments by a large amount between '05-'06 and '15-'16 according to this paper, see specifically pages 21 to 23 for the information in question. So while you do spend a lot on equalization payments you also get a lot of other funding back and at a vastly increased rate compared to every province which isn't Ontario or Quebec.

As for importing Oil, we'd have to do that anyway unless Alberta has suddenly become a refiner of its own oil, which it hasn't. The plan is to ship the unfinished product to China for refinement so they can sell it back to us, which would still be importing Oil from a 'lovely place' as you put it.

So yeah, don't bring BC into this just because we've said no to your pipeline. We don't need the headaches it will cause us because, unlike Alberta, we're actually committed to being on the right side of climate change.

EDIT: Retracted a section about provincial debt levels and spending as, while Alberta going from 'debt free' in 2004 to a projected debt of $71.1 billion in 2020 is alarming BC can't exactly throw stones in that particular regard.

IMO B.C. and Quebec both may have missed the forest for the trees here.

Let's be clear on this: Albertan oil will continue to ship no matter how much B.C. and Quebec hate the idea. While they may be able to obstruct and/or delay new pipelines being built they have no real authority to prevent Alberta from shipping via existing pipelines and rail. Nor can they stop Alberta from simply expanding capacity to the US (which incidentally is expediating the Keystone pipeline because they know a good deal when they see one). If the goal was to stop Albertan oil from shipping, at best all they did was accomplish nothing by maintaining the existing status quo.

But it's a lot more than just that. For example, how much revenue over the years has Alberta and Canada lost due to much of that oil being shipped to the US at far below market rates? I don't have any studies off the top of my head, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's billions of dollars worth- which is billions that didn't go into our economy, social services, environment etc.

How much is it costing Canadians to import oil, and in particular refined oil products as opposed to doing it domestically? Because I 100% agree that at the very least we should be able to ship and refine our oil for domestic use rather than rely on others. The current status quo is absurd IMO.

What is the impact of shipping more oil via rail (which is what's likely going to happen once oil prices start to rise again) as opposed to if we have shipped it via pipeline? While oil pipelines can leak, IIRC rail safety is not exactly stellar in Canada. Which one is worse?

More importantly, what is going to be the environmental impact in Alberta (and by extension Canada) now that the Conservatives are back in charge? This is a real sticking point for me - if the goal was to ultimately reduce and eliminate Alberta's dependence on an oil economy, why on earth did all the other left-wing parties do their best to throw the Alberta NDPs under the bus??? At least they were trying to take some steps in the right direction. Now that the Tories are back, "environment" is a dirtier word in Alberta than "tar-sands", and good luck getting them to cooperate on anything. Were the other left wing groups seriously thinking that wouldn't happen? Or were they secretly hoping Alberta would flip again so they'd have their usual boogeyman to target? Or did they simply not see the bigger picture?

Also, how does restricting Alberta (and by extension Canada's) oil really help things on the international stage? Yes, Albertan crude is dirtier - but the market for oil is there, and if we're not selling it someone else will. Is it really worse to sell Albertian oil (especially with the NDP in charge) as opposed to the world getting its oil Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Venezuela, Russia, the US etc? While Canada's far from perfect in environmental and human rights, in comparison to other OPEC countries I'd say we're far from the worst. Are you seriously suggesting that its better for other countries like Saudi Arabia to maintain more dominance? Quite frankly I'd prefer getting my oil from Alberta rather than a country that does things like opress women and execute homosexuals, but maybe that's just me.

My point being that IMO this isn't just a black and white issue, and that I think Albertans do have some genuine grievances with other provinces, though can go a bit overboard.

Btw in case you didn't know I live in Toronto - and yes, I fully support Canada East, even if it only extended to Ontario. The previous Liberal government supported it, and I don't think there's any question that the PC Party would should it be revived. Hell I'd be happy if they built the thing to Toronto and started refining the oil right here as opposed to the status quo.

[The Romulan Republic]

I did not say you are a white supremacist or neo nazi sympathizer. I will neither defend, retract, nor apologize for a position I did not take. I asked if you are a Western separatist, because you expressed sympathy for Albertan resentment toward the Federal government, repeated Western separatist talking points about how the big bad Feds take money from Alberta, and suggested that Alberta should join the US. I noted that there is strong overlap between Western separatist and white nationalists/Neo-Nazis, but I did not call you one.

Do any of you dumb fucks actually read what I say, or do you just see my name attached to a post, and immediately assume I must be lying/hysterical/hypocritical without bothering to comprehend what I'm actually saying? Or are you just lying?

Actually, I think that's exactly what you were implying; why else would you have phrased things that way? It would have more than sufficed to have asked whether or not I supported Alberta separating without throwing in the whole bit about them being "absolutely bottom of the barrel" and "overlapping heavily with the white nationalist/Neo-Nazi crowd".

How exactly were you expecting me to respond to that? Were you hoping for "Ya, you got me, I'm totally an Albertian separatist and love 'dem white nationalists /Neo Nazis, long live the Furher!"? Were you expecting me to start wasting my time defending myself from your needless bulls*it? Or were you just trolling and/or being wayyyyy overdramatic, in which case congrats?


To answer your question btw, I don't think Alberta should separate; where perhaps I differ from others is that I acknowledge there are potential benefits if they left (and joined the US (namely that they would likely get a better price for their oil) , though I feel the consequences outweigh the benefits.

Alright, let me be clear: I'm not saying that you're a white supremacist or anything. I am saying that there are a lot of ties between the secessionists and white supremacists, so... be careful of the company you keep?

Thank you for clarifying your views on secession. Personally, as you can probably tell, I am strongly opposed. I believe that in most cases (including Alberta's), secessionist movements embody an outdated, isolationist provincialism that runs contrary to what we need and what makes sense in an interconnected, technologically-advanced world, which is greater unity. I believe that they are needlessly divisive, increase the risk of civil strife, and tend to weaken, not strengthen countries, and that even if not explicitly racist or xenophobic, tend by their nature to be a vehicle for xenophobic isolationists, and a tool for divide and conquer strategies by hostile nations. Thus, I believe that secession is justified only as a last measure to protect a persecuted minority when all others have failed.

I also think that whatever benefits might have applied to joining America in the past, right now joining that cluster fuck is a fool's bet unless you're really into xenophobic Kleptocracy and constitutional crises. Although theoretically, I would be open to the entirety of Canada joining America in a North American Union at some point in the future.

[Jub]

Let's be clear on this: Albertan oil will continue to ship no matter how much B.C. and Quebec hate the idea. While they may be able to obstruct and/or delay new pipelines being built they have no real authority to prevent Alberta from shipping via existing pipelines and rail. Nor can they stop Alberta from simply expanding capacity to the US (which incidentally is expediating the Keystone pipeline because they know a good deal when they see one). If the goal was to stop Albertan oil from shipping, at best all they did was accomplish nothing by maintaining the existing status quo.

That was never the goal. I don't think people in BC much care if the oil gets shipped, I certainly don't. I do care if it gets shipped through lands where the owners have said no. There's also been a lot of propaganda on both sides like the pro-pipeline side showing maps of the inlet with like 3/4 of the islands removed while the no-pipeline side has ignored the risks of transporting oil via train and claims that shipping via pipeline could be safer than transporting via train.

My main point is that when the owners of the land your pipe needs to go through say no to the pipeline, especially native groups who've been shit on by stuff like this before, you stop the pipeline.

But it's a lot more than just that. For example, how much revenue over the years has Alberta and Canada lost due to much of that oil being shipped to the US at far below market rates? I don't have any studies off the top of my head, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's billions of dollars worth- which is billions that didn't go into our economy, social services, environment etc.

Maybe, but could a billion dollars completely reverse the effects of an environmental disaster caused by a tanker spill or a burst valve on a pipe? That's BC's main issue.

How much is it costing Canadians to import oil, and in particular refined oil products as opposed to doing it domestically? Because I 100% agree that at the very least we should be able to ship and refine our oil for domestic use rather than rely on others. The current status quo is absurd IMO.

I don't understand why there aren't refineries in Alberta so we don't need to ship the raw product out and buy in the finished product.

What is the impact of shipping more oil via rail (which is what's likely going to happen once oil prices start to rise again) as opposed to if we have shipped it via pipeline? While oil pipelines can leak, IIRC rail safety is not exactly stellar in Canada. Which one is worse?

I've seen claims both ways, but the issue with leaks from a pipe is that they tend to go unnoticed for longer than a train accident. A train accident can be worse in the near term but a leaking pipe can do damage undetected over a period of decades.

More importantly, what is going to be the environmental impact in Alberta (and by extension Canada) now that the Conservatives are back in charge? This is a real sticking point for me - if the goal was to ultimately reduce and eliminate Alberta's dependence on an oil economy, why on earth did all the other left-wing parties do their best to throw the Alberta NDPs under the bus??? At least they were trying to take some steps in the right direction. Now that the Tories are back, "environment" is a dirtier word in Alberta than "tar-sands", and good luck getting them to cooperate on anything. Were the other left wing groups seriously thinking that wouldn't happen? Or were they secretly hoping Alberta would flip again so they'd have their usual boogeyman to target? Or did they simply not see the bigger picture?

Alberta was always going to flip at some point. It's almost better that it's now because if the rest of the nation can force things like a carbon tax to stick and pass a few laws about environmental impact we can show that the UCP was even less effective than the NDP and get them voted out all the quicker.

Also, how does restricting Alberta (and by extension Canada's) oil really help things on the international stage? Yes, Albertan crude is dirtier - but the market for oil is there, and if we're not selling it someone else will. Is it really worse to sell Albertian oil (especially with the NDP in charge) as opposed to the world getting its oil Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Venezuela, Russia, the US etc? While Canada's far from perfect in environmental and human rights, in comparison to other OPEC countries I'd say we're far from the worst. Are you seriously suggesting that its better for other countries like Saudi Arabia to maintain more dominance? Quite frankly I'd prefer getting my oil from Alberta rather than a country that does things like opress women and execute homosexuals, but maybe that's just me.

Slowing the rate of burn either by slowing extraction or raising prices is one way to marginally change the rate at which fossil fuels are burned. Plus, as long as Alberta isn't capable of refining most of what they extract they're still benefiting China at least as much as Canada by extracting the oil anyway.

Plus fuck Alberta on principle. They're the dirtiest province even if they never extract another barrel of crude because they're still mainly getting their electricity from burning fossil fuels. This might not be a way to coerce them into cleaning their act up on that front but given that they show no signs of fixing that we can at least tax the hell out of them from their pollution.

Btw in case you didn't know I live in Toronto - and yes, I fully support Canada East, even if it only extended to Ontario. The previous Liberal government supported it, and I don't think there's any question that the PC Party would should it be revived. Hell I'd be happy if they built the thing to Toronto and started refining the oil right here as opposed to the status quo.

I had no idea where you live, but that does clarify your point of view somewhat. Also, I'd refining oil in Ontario too, maybe replace a few now-defunct automotive plants with oil refineries and get people back to work.

[Coop D'etat]

Jub, being a Vancouver area dude with no clue about how the oil industry works, yet having extremely strong opinions about what people who depend on it for their livelihoods should be doing after he heard some bullshit and thought about the subject for 30 seconds is a marvelous demonstration of why people inland of him are so ticked at folks like him, i.e. overconfident, mal-informed urban twits.
-
Canada, and Alberta in particular does massive amounts of petroleum refining. A good chunk of the city of Edmonton is covered by refineries. The gas Jub uses locally in Vancouver, is refined in a Edmonton refinery and send over the pipe Jub opposes expanding for him to use. We aren't ignorant savages who don't know how to do anything but dig things up and sell them to our betters like he's implying. The notion the plan is to ship the oil to China, have them refine it and import it back is the kind of ill-informed nonsense that sadly passes for commentary on the subject from his neck of the woods.

It however, makes no sense at all to refine the product prior to foreign export. You don't refine oil prior to export because

1) refined product doesn't travel well, unlike crude.
2) each region has its own particular refined blend based in the particular industrial needs of the location. Thus its a market dominated by local production who are keyed into their customer's needs rather than mass production from far away.
3) Refining is a capital intensive, but low profit margin business. Its only a particularly good industry to be in beyond local needs if you're like Texas and have had the built capacity to do it for generations. It makes minimal sense to make a massive investment to get more into the business which won't pay off in ROI.

Ultimately this is the same reason BC exports raw soft lumber, not pre-made buildings. The profitable export market is for the raw material to be converted to the particular needs of the importer, so it the better business to be in. But you don't see people saying the solution to Vancouver'and Victoria's chronic abysmally poor wages compared to cost of living is to build up carpentry shops.

This isn't some great idea that us poor Albertan hicks haven't gotten into our thick skulls to do. Its a bad idea from people with a hard on for industrial policy who think its somehow more virtuous to be in "manufacturing" rather than "extraction", when the extraction in this case is in fact: higher tech, more labour intensive and commands a better profit margin than the secondary industry.

In short, try to have some idea about what you're talking about before being so self-confidently self-righteous about it.

[Jub]

Canada, and Alberta in particular does massive amounts of petroleum refining. A good chunk of the city of Edmonton is covered by refineries.

That must be why it has that famous smell and yes, I have visited Edmonton before to confirm that it smells like ass.

The gas Jub uses locally in Vancouver, is refined in a Edmonton refinery and send over the pipe Jub opposes expanding for him to use.

The joke's on you, I take transit and have never owned a vehicle. The only continent I've driven on is Oceania and I doubt Alberta had anything to do with the fuel I burned over there.

1) refined product doesn't travel well, unlike crude.
2) each region has its own particular refined blend based in the particular industrial needs of the location. Thus its a market dominated by local production who are keyed into their customer's needs rather than mass production from far away.
3) Refining is a capital intensive, but low profit margin business. Its only a particularly good industry to be in beyond local needs if you're like Texas and have had the built capacity to do it for generations. It makes minimal sense to make a massive investment to get more into the business which won't pay off in ROI.

This pipeline won't save us from having to import refined oil in spite of the fact that we extract more of it than we could use so again, why should anybody not in Alberta care?

Ultimately this is the same reason BC exports raw soft lumber, not pre-made buildings. The profitable export market is for the raw material to be converted to the particular needs of the importer, so it the better business to be in. But you don't see people saying the solution to Vancouver'and Victoria's chronic abysmally poor wages compared to cost of living is to build up carpentry shops.

I wouldn't mind doing more manufacturing of finished wooden goods, especially of the kinds we import, in Canada and especially BC even if such an industry had to be subsidized because it doesn't currently make economic sense to make such cheaply imported goods locally. Just like subsidizing farmers it can make sense to prop up a sector that you'd like to keep some additional capacity for.

As for you taking shots at the cost of living in BC is rich. The reason why prices are high and wages are low out here is that people want to live in BC even when the economy is weaker. They don't want to have anything to do with Edmonton and Calgary the moment the economy takes the slightest of downswings, so every time the price of oil dips people flee Alberta like rats from a sinking ship.

This isn't some great idea that us poor Albertan hicks haven't gotten into our thick skulls to do. Its a bad idea from people with a hard on for industrial policy who think its somehow more virtuous to be in "manufacturing" rather than "extraction", when the extraction in this case is in fact: higher tech, more labour intensive and commands a better profit margin than the secondary industry.

So make your money extracting some of the world's dirtiest oil, just don't cry when the rest of Canada wants nothing to do with it.

In short, try to have some idea about what you're talking about before being so self-confidently self-righteous about it.

Sorry princess, but the pipeline is still a no go and your premiers sad attempt at a turn off the taps law won't withstand a challenge. Too bad, not sad at all about some Albertan trying, and failing, to talk up his province's only source of revenue.

[Jub]

@Coop D'etat I'm sorry, that reply was overly hostile for no reason. I'll give a more detailed reply when I have a moment.

[Coop D'etat]

@Coop D'etat I'm sorry, that reply was overly hostile for no reason. I'll give a more detailed reply when I have a moment.

I accept the apology, but I note with amusement that its contents were appropriately indicative of the problem of lacking inter-regional solidarity and misinformation which has brought us to this state of affairs.

[AniThyng]

The joke's on you, I take transit and have never owned a vehicle. The only continent I've driven on is Oceania and I doubt Alberta had anything to do with the fuel I burned over there.

I'm not sure this is as strong an arguement as it could be, since the logistics that support the transit system and the rest of the city probably use fuel... Use less of it certainly but still...

[Jub]

@Coop D'etat I'm sorry, that reply was overly hostile for no reason. I'll give a more detailed reply when I have a moment.

I accept the apology, but I note with amusement that its contents were appropriately indicative of the problem of lacking inter-regional solidarity and misinformation which has brought us to this state of affairs.

That's actually what I realized as well. I was explaining the broadest strokes of this debate to another student who knew nothing of the pipeline issue and when it came time to list the positives I found that I agreed with them a fair bit.

I think that the core issues are that BC has an image to preserve and a genuine concern, if an overblown one, that increased tanker traffic as well as the pipeline itself will cause harm to our natural beauty. Nature in BC is part of our identity and a lot of our tourism is based around the image of this pristine unspoiled expanse of mountains, lakes, and trees. There's no event, like Stampede in Vancouver to draw people in and when asked what there is to do in Vancouver the answers tend to boil down to hiking, skiing, etc. or enjoying the food or taking in a concert or sporting event.

In this regard, I think that fighting the pipeline is seen as a way of protecting this image, though I wonder how many tourists actually care.

On the economic front, it depends how much of a cut we'll get from the oil passing through. It's possible that BC has calculated that the costs of cleaning up a spill, likely to be mainly incurred by our province, simply aren't properly offset by the income the pipeline will generate locally. The pipeline makes sense for Alberta and for Canada as a whole which is why those two parties are leaning so hard on BC to push it through. I don't know what BC gets out of the deal, perhaps you could enlighten me as to how much carrot BC is being offered to go with all the stick our local news is bringing up.

I'm not sure this is as strong an arguement as it could be, since the logistics that support the transit system and the rest of the city probably use fuel... Use less of it certainly but still...

Skytrain is electric, our power generation is hydro, and "almost half our bus fleet runs on cleaner technology including our electric trolley, hybrid diesel and natural gas buses." Plus we're adding 4 non-trolley electric buses to our fleet this year as a pilot project to further decrease the fossil fuel usage of our already pretty good transit system.

That said we do burn some fossil fuels just on the transit vehicles themselves, let alone their logistics vehicles, and those may come from Alberta. Plus trucking is still a big deal for getting goods of all kinds around the city and as a consumer of these goods, those are also on me. I can just rest a little easier knowing that most use transit or carpool with friends to get around and contribute a smaller carbon footprint due to that.

[Coop D'etat]

The thing about this fight is it has attracted the sort of people that have no qualms about straight up bullshitting or flat out lying to advance their cause. The enviromental movement, particularly on the BC coast, attracts more than their fair share of "by any means necessary" types. They also live for the struggle rather than thinking in terms of advancing tangible goals, so they are impossible partners in forming political coalitions. Hence the biggest wins in the history of their movement was offered to them on a platter in 2015 and they flat out rejected it, and denounced the people offering it. They did almost nothing themselves to bring this about getting these wins either, they were entirely produced by centre-left technocrats getting into office without their help and looking to bring about a broad compromise that advanced everyone's top priorities.

So eventually it came about that the deal on offer to the government of BC was to not oppose Transmountain, which was the most benign project on offer that largely just expanded the existing infrastructure to provide petroleum products to the lower mainland area to also be a viable path to oceanic exports. Technically, BC doesn't have any authority to make a deal in the first place, because its entire a Federal matter to regulate, but to make nice the agreement was made that they'd get a 1 billion dollar bribe in the form of revenue sharing not to obstruct the project. The Federal government was to upgrade the coastal spill protection as well, which likewise is their responsibility to monitor.

A whole bunch of lies to half truths were being told about the tanker traffic to gin up local opposition on the grounds Jub has pointed too about the supposedly pristine coast that is so import to the local identity. The picture they wanted to paint was pristine waters being suddenly sullied by dangerous tanker traffic. The reality is that the exact same waters are a major international shipping trade conduit, serving both Vancouver and Seattle as major world ports. The amount of shipping traffic in the port area itself would be marginal over existing business (as is the supposed threat to tharee local orcas, they're under pressure from commercial shipping in general, not new oil tankers from Burnaby in particular which the environmental review on the subject pretty rightly pointed out). The waters in general are also under pretty heavy oil tanker traffic already, since its the same area Alaskan oil gets shipped to the continental US.

Meanwhile, on the land with the pipeline itself, the exact same pipeline was supplying the VMA itself for generation without much ill-effects to the land. Hardly anyone in the region new that it was there until it became a political issue to mobilize around.


The whole process was plagued by nonsense issues pushed by people with agendas who were looking for fights. As a result, your typical lower mainlander concerned about the issue has gotten about as mislead by propaganda as your stereotypical Alberta Pround meme-warrior.