House Ways and Means Committee formally demands IRS turn over six years of Trump's tax returns.

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House Ways and Means Committee formally demands IRS turn over six years of Trump's tax returns.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

They're also demanding returns from Trump's trust and other Trump businesses. No subpoena- they're invoking an obscure section of the tax code to demand information from the IRS, though using it to get a President's tax returns is unprecedented.

The IRS has until April 10th. to hand it over, though Trump will likely fight it in court (he's once more using his transparently bullshit "I'm being audited so I can't release my tax returns" excuse).

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/03/us/p ... house.html
WASHINGTON — The chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, using a little-known provision in the federal tax code, formally requested on Wednesday that the I.R.S. hand over six years of President Trump’s personal and business tax returns, starting what is likely to be a momentous fight with his administration.

Representative Richard E. Neal, Democrat of Massachusetts, hand-delivered a two-page letter laying out the request to Charles P. Rettig, the Internal Revenue Service commissioner, ending months of speculation about when he would do so and almost certainly prompting a legal challenge from the Trump administration.

Responding to questions from reporters in the Oval Office, Mr. Trump suggested that he would fight the request because, he said, he was being audited.

“I guess when you have a name, you are audited, but until such time as I’m not under audit I would not be inclined to do that,” he said.

[Read Mr. Neal’s letter to the I.R.S. commissioner.]

The move by Mr. Neal came as other panels controlled by House Democrats were flexing their muscles. The House Judiciary Committee on Wednesday morning authorized its chairman to use a subpoena to try to force the Justice Department to give Congress a full copy of the special counsel’s report and all of the underlying evidence used to reach his conclusions on Russian interference in the 2016 election.

And the chairman of the House Oversight and Reform Committee said that he would soon ask for a vote on a subpoena of his own to compel Mazars USA, an accounting firm tied to the president, to produce a decade’s worth of Mr. Trump’s financial records.

“They have told us that they will provide the information pretty much when they have a subpoena,” the chairman, Representative Elijah E. Cummings of Maryland, told reporters. “And we’ll get them a subpoena.”

Unlike the chairmen of other committees, Mr. Neal is not relying on a subpoena or standard congressional processes. Instead, he is invoking an authority enshrined in the tax code granted only to the tax-writing committees in Congress that gives the chairmen of the House Ways and Means Committee and the Senate Finance Committee the power to request tax information on any filer.

Mr. Neal gave the agency until April 10 to comply with the request, and if he receives the information, he will then confidentially review it with his committee staff.

The provision, which dates in some form to the Teapot Dome scandal of Warren G. Harding’s administration, at least on its face gives the Trump administration little room to decline a request like Mr. Neal’s. It only says that the Treasury secretary “shall” furnish the information.

“President Trump is the first president in nearly a half century to break precedent and refuse to voluntarily release his tax returns,” said Representative Dan Kildee, Democrat of Michigan and a member of the Ways and Means Committee. “The president is the only person who can sign bills into law, and the public deserves to know whether the president’s personal financial interests affect his public decision making.”

The Treasury Department and the I.R.S. did not immediately respond to requests for comment.

But Democrats anticipate that the Trump administration will object to the request and force the matter into the courts, where its adjudication could take months or longer. Though the provision — No. 6103 in the tax code — is invoked frequently by the committee, there is little precedent for using it to view the returns of a president who has not invited the scrutiny.

Republicans have vigorously argued against the request, saying that whatever justification Democrats produce will belie their true intent: to fish for information that could embarrass the president politically.

The House Judiciary Committee approved the authorization of a subpoena for a full copy of the Mueller report. The chairman, Representative Jerrold Nadler of New York, said he would not issue this subpoena right away.

Representative Kevin Brady of Texas, the top Republican on the Ways and Means Committee, called the request “an abuse of the tax-writing committees’ statutory authority.”

“Weaponizing our nation’s tax code by targeting political foes sets a dangerous precedent and weakens Americans’ privacy rights,” Mr. Brady said in a letter to Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin. “As you know, by law all Americans have a fundamental right to the privacy of the personal information found in their tax returns.”

Defying modern presidential norms, Mr. Trump has refused since he became a candidate for president to release any of his tax returns. Democrats suspect the tax information could provide clues to wrongdoing by Mr. Trump, and they made getting the documents one of their top oversight priorities when they reclaimed control of the House in January.

[A New York Times investigation showed that the president engaged in suspect tax schemes as he reaped riches from his father.]

Mr. Neal said he was making the request as part of his committee’s oversight of “the extent to which the I.R.S. audits and enforces the federal tax laws against a president.” Under I.R.S. policy, the personal tax returns of presidents and vice presidents are supposed to be automatically audited each year. Mr. Neal said the committee was considering legislation related to the issue.

“I take the authority to make this request very seriously, and I approach it with the utmost care and respect,” Mr. Neal said in a statement. “This request is about policy, not politics; my preparations were made on my own track and timeline, entirely independent of other activities in Congress and the administration.”

He added, “I trust that in this spirit, the I.R.S. will comply with federal law and furnish me with the requested documents in a timely manner.”

In addition to Mr. Trump’s personal returns for 2013 to 2018, Mr. Neal requested returns for Mr. Trump’s trust and seven other core Trump business entities that control scores of other Trump operations, including his golf club in Bedminster, N.J. He also asked the I.R.S. to share any information it had related to the entities, including whether they had been audited.

Liberal Democrats have complained for weeks that Mr. Neal, 70 and a roll-up-your-sleeves legislator, was dragging his feet on making the request. They have organized events in his district, taken out advertisements and produced legal briefs meant to make a case that he should act and act quickly.

Mr. Neal said throughout that he was chiefly concerned with crafting a request, alongside the House general counsel and the Ways and Means Committee staff, that could withstand legal challenge.

“I am certain we are within our legitimate legislative, legal and oversight rights,” he said on Wednesday.

In the Judiciary Committee, the chairman, Representative Jerrold Nadler of New York, said he would not immediately issue the subpoena for the Mueller report. But the party-line vote won by Democrats who control the committee ratchets up pressure on Attorney General William P. Barr as he decides how much of the nearly 400-page report to share with lawmakers.

“I will give him time to change his mind,” Mr. Nadler said in his opening statement. “But if we cannot reach an accommodation, then we will have no choice but to issue subpoenas for these materials.”

The committee also approved subpoenas for five former White House aides who Democrats said were relevant to an investigation into possible obstruction of justice, abuse of power and corruption within the Trump administration.

They included Donald F. McGahn II, a former White House counsel; Stephen K. Bannon, the president’s former chief strategist; Hope Hicks, a former White House communications director; Reince Priebus, the president’s first chief of staff; and Annie Donaldson, a deputy of Mr. McGahn.
Edit: Everyone will know doubt be looking for evidence of business deals with Russian oligarchs, but I'm also keeping an eye out for any indications of pay offs to former sex abuse victims. Anyway, there's definitely going to be something interesting there, though God knows how much the public will ever see.
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Re: House Ways and Means Committee formally demands IRS turn over six years of Trump's tax returns.

Post by aerius »

What took the fucking morons this long to go after his finances?
If this happened on day 1, there's a good chance Trump will either be a lame duck or out of office by now.
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Re: House Ways and Means Committee formally demands IRS turn over six years of Trump's tax returns.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

aerius wrote: 2019-04-03 09:39pm What took the fucking morons this long to go after his finances?
If this happened on day 1, there's a good chance Trump will either be a lame duck or out of office by now.
The Democrats had no control of Congress until last winter.

After that, the article basically explains it- the committee chair says he took his time because he wanted to make sure to craft a request that would stand up to the inevitable legal challenge, although liberal Democrats have been pushing him to move faster and put a lot of political pressure on him to do so.
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Re: House Ways and Means Committee formally demands IRS turn over six years of Trump's tax returns.

Post by aerius »

So let me get this straight. The Dems didn't have control over the House or Senate, yet they managed to get both a House and Senate commission investigation into the alleged Russian collusion in addition to the Mueller Report, and all this time they couldn't request his tax forms or any other shit on his finances. I find that hard to believe.
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Re: House Ways and Means Committee formally demands IRS turn over six years of Trump's tax returns.

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aerius wrote: 2019-04-03 09:50pm So let me get this straight. The Dems didn't have control over the House or Senate, yet they managed to get both a House and Senate commission investigation into the alleged Russian collusion in addition to the Mueller Report, and all this time they couldn't request his tax forms or any other shit on his finances. I find that hard to believe.
It is worth noting, since it might have been forgotten over the last couple years of mudslinging, that a lot of Republicans actually initially backed the appointment of Mueller. He was a Republican himself, had a reputation for being non-partisan and for not leaking to the press, and they probably hoped that appointing Mueller would make it all just quietly go away. Plus, Russia is one of the few issues where large numbers of Republican legislators have been willing to break with Trump at least a little (though not to the point of actually trying to get him out of office), such as passing sanctions he opposed.

Edit: In fact, it was Rod Rosenstein, the Republican Deputy AG, who made the decision to appoint Mueller in the first place.
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Re: House Ways and Means Committee formally demands IRS turn over six years of Trump's tax returns.

Post by aerius »

I'm not talking about the Mueller report. I'm talking about the House Report and the Senate Report. With no control of either legislature, the Dems managed to get a full investigation going in both, and yet they couldn't request a fucking tax return?
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Re: House Ways and Means Committee formally demands IRS turn over six years of Trump's tax returns.

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aerius wrote: 2019-04-03 10:05pm I'm not talking about the Mueller report. I'm talking about the House Report and the Senate Report. With no control of either legislature, the Dems managed to get a full investigation going in both, and yet they couldn't request a fucking tax return?
I mean, you specifically mentioned the Mueller report as well as the Congressional investigations.

Like I said, Russia is a topic where occassionally Republicans will break from Trump a bit, as long as it isn't to a degree that risks bringing the whole Presidency/party down. But even then, do recall that the House investigation at least was, under the Republicans, regarded as a complete joke, with Nunes "recusing" himself and then selectively leaking stuff to support Trump's narrative.
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Re: House Ways and Means Committee formally demands IRS turn over six years of Trump's tax returns.

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aerius wrote: 2019-04-03 10:05pm I'm not talking about the Mueller report. I'm talking about the House Report and the Senate Report. With no control of either legislature, the Dems managed to get a full investigation going in both, and yet they couldn't request a fucking tax return?
Only the chairman of the Ways and Means Committee has the authority to ask. Until January said chairman was a Republican, who wasn't going to do that. The IRS doesn't answer to any old Congresscritter.
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Re: House Ways and Means Committee formally demands IRS turn over six years of Trump's tax returns.

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Rogue 9 wrote: 2019-04-03 11:22pm
aerius wrote: 2019-04-03 10:05pm I'm not talking about the Mueller report. I'm talking about the House Report and the Senate Report. With no control of either legislature, the Dems managed to get a full investigation going in both, and yet they couldn't request a fucking tax return?
Only the chairman of the Ways and Means Committee has the authority to ask. Until January said chairman was a Republican, who wasn't going to do that. The IRS doesn't answer to any old Congresscritter.
The Democrats' ability to act was very limited prior to last fall. The November elections really did make a difference, and we're seeing that now in this sudden surge of investigations, and the hard line on the Shutdown as well.

I'd still like to see more, faster, of course, but this here is proof that elections do matter.
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Re: House Ways and Means Committee formally demands IRS turn over six years of Trump's tax returns.

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Rogue 9 wrote: 2019-04-03 11:22pm Only the chairman of the Ways and Means Committee has the authority to ask. Until January said chairman was a Republican, who wasn't going to do that. The IRS doesn't answer to any old Congresscritter.
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Re: House Ways and Means Committee formally demands IRS turn over six years of Trump's tax returns.

Post by bilateralrope »

I wonder how Trump would react to the IRS saying: We weren't auditing him yesterday.
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Re: House Ways and Means Committee formally demands IRS turn over six years of Trump's tax returns.

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bilateralrope wrote: 2019-04-03 11:53pm I wonder how Trump would react to the IRS saying: We weren't auditing him yesterday.
"The IRS says they weren't auditing me. Total exoneration!"
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Re: House Ways and Means Committee formally demands IRS turn over six years of Trump's tax returns.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

House Dems have given the IRS an April 23rd deadline to turn over Donald's tax returns:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/13/politics ... index.html
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Re: House Ways and Means Committee formally demands IRS turn over six years of Trump's tax returns.

Post by Gandalf »

I wonder if Trump and his team are holding on to his tax returns in order to create a parallel of Obama's birth certificate, where Trump was made to look ridiculous?

So much energy and effort has been expended over the subject that for many anything short of and IOU signed from Trump to Putin will be a disappointment.
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Re: House Ways and Means Committee formally demands IRS turn over six years of Trump's tax returns.

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Gandalf wrote: 2019-04-15 08:55pm I wonder if Trump and his team are holding on to his tax returns in order to create a parallel of Obama's birth certificate, where Trump was made to look ridiculous?

So much energy and effort has been expended over the subject that for many anything short of and IOU signed from Trump to Putin will be a disappointment.
That may be their hope (like how they and their supporters crowed about complete exoneration when Trump didn't get indicted for conspiracy with Russia, despite their being numerous things about Barr's summary that reflect very poorly on the Trump regime). But its also likely that there's something bad in there, for them to go to this much trouble.

I won't speculate as to what. It could be anything from evidence of tax fraud, to business deals with Russian oligarchs and/or other unsavory parties, to evidence of payoffs to rape victims (IIRC, one former high-ranked Republican Congressman went down that way a while back), to just the embarasment of Trump not being as rich as he claims he is. Or any combination of the above.
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Re: House Ways and Means Committee formally demands IRS turn over six years of Trump's tax returns.

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Gandalf wrote: 2019-04-15 08:55pm I wonder if Trump and his team are holding on to his tax returns in order to create a parallel of Obama's birth certificate, where Trump was made to look ridiculous?

So much energy and effort has been expended over the subject that for many anything short of and IOU signed from Trump to Putin will be a disappointment.
I'd disagree with you on that for three reasons

1. Trump is currently under investigation by multiple agencies for misstatements of his wealth. We already had press reports that Trump and the Trump Co have claimed higher debt to get lower taxes and higher profits in order to lower insurance bills, in his web of taxes there's an excellent chance there's going to be some obvious "this doesn't look right" in there

2. Trump has notoriously claimed to be a billionaire but how much of a billionaire has always been an issue, he's had between two to nineteen billion dollars which is fine if that's over several years, but it was over several weeks meaning there's a possibility that number is going to turn out to be a lot lower which will be a nice campaign thing because Trump the uber rich businessman has been the long running Trump "brand"

3. Trump and Co simply don't have the ability to plan that far ahead. This was as confirmed in numerous insider books that they had not even plan to win the election and they were ruining him as a the Republican presidential nominee. Everything from Fire and Fury (AKA the book of Steve Bannon quotes) to Bob Woodward's Fear (AKA holy shit how did you get these people on the record saying this?) spelled out the Trump campaign and Trump himself actively fought "wasting" money on a transition team in case he won the presidency.

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Re: House Ways and Means Committee formally demands IRS turn over six years of Trump's tax returns.

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Yeah, long-term masterminds they are not, by most accounts. Trump's a skilled con man, but more by throwing so much random bullshit out there so shamelessly that its hard to keep track of it all or form a coherent counterargument. He's basically Littlefinger's "Chaos is a ladder" in action.
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Re: House Ways and Means Committee formally demands IRS turn over six years of Trump's tax returns.

Post by Solauren »

Actually, by tracking his (and his businesses) tax returns from 2013 to 2018, the could show if Trump actually de-vested himself of his business interests, or if he owns businesses that are profiting from his executive decisions.

I believe not de-vesting himself of his business interests is a serious crime for the POTUS. Businesses he is/was associated with directly benefiting from his actions or decisions would also be a serious problem.
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Re: House Ways and Means Committee formally demands IRS turn over six years of Trump's tax returns.

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Solauren wrote: 2019-04-15 10:12pm I believe not de-vesting himself of his business interests is a serious crime for the POTUS. Businesses he is/was associated with directly benefiting from his actions or decisions would also be a serious problem.
IANAL, but what I've read on the subject suggests thats not actually the case. POTUS does not HAVE to give up his businesses, its just that most of them choose do to eliminate any question of a conflict of interest.

Its mostly the same case with a release of tax returns, as far as I understand things.
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Re: House Ways and Means Committee formally demands IRS turn over six years of Trump's tax returns.

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Oscar Wilde wrote: 2019-04-16 12:58am
Solauren wrote: 2019-04-15 10:12pm I believe not de-vesting himself of his business interests is a serious crime for the POTUS. Businesses he is/was associated with directly benefiting from his actions or decisions would also be a serious problem.
IANAL, but what I've read on the subject suggests thats not actually the case. POTUS does not HAVE to give up his businesses, its just that most of them choose do to eliminate any question of a conflict of interest.

Its mostly the same case with a release of tax returns, as far as I understand things.
More correct to say it would provide clear evidence of the violation of the emoluments clause if for example Trump properties see a 500% spike in foreign spending by countries he's being extra nice to or if there's a sudden change in outlays but most of that would be in the Trump business records not his personal taxes. His personal taxes gets his wealth, the breakdown of his shell corporations and likely the dodgy tax schemes he's been engaged in since 1990s. Which gives us the big thing, undeclared wealth.

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Re: House Ways and Means Committee formally demands IRS turn over six years of Trump's tax returns.

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I don't know if I would even call that 100% clear evidence, because correlation is not causation, but I can see the point.


And this is a question of curiosity, at one point does one stop scrutinizing Trump's actions in office against his business holdings? Even if he had put his business into a trust, wouldn't the idea be that once 2024 rolls around and he's not President, he's back at his business?
Once he's back at his business and not a politician, does a payment from the Russians for whatever become suspicious in the face of 'things he has done for Russia?'
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Re: House Ways and Means Committee formally demands IRS turn over six years of Trump's tax returns.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

The IRS has missed its second deadline to hand over the returns, and Congressman Pascrell, a senior member of the House Ways and Means Committee, is threatening Contempt charges against Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin, as well as suggesting that the head of the IRS should consider resigning:

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/ ... ns-1271106
Rep. Bill Pascrell, an outspoken advocate of getting President Donald Trump’s tax returns, lashed out today at what he considers administration stonewalling.

Congress could hold Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin in contempt for failing to meet a Wednesday deadline for delivering Trump's returns to House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Richard Neal, Pascrell, a senior Ways and Means member, told POLITICO. He also said IRS Commissioner Chuck Rettig should consider stepping down.

Mnuchin late Wednesday punted on turning over the returns to Neal (D-Mass.), who a week earlier demanded the IRS deliver them by April 10. Mnuchin said he’s consulting with Justice Department lawyers and couldn’t satisfy Neal’s demand in time. Neal is likely to send another letter Friday requesting the returns, Pascrell (D-N.J.) said.

“I want to take a look at contempt of Congress here,” Pascrell said, “because the way Mnuchin talked and the way he writes, he’s very dismissive of the legislative branch of government, particularly if that part of the legislative branch of government is controlled by the Democratic Party.”

It’s incumbent on Congress to defend its Constitutional prerogatives, Pascrell said.

He also questioned why Mnuchin responded instead of IRS Commissioner Chuck Rettig, to whom Neal sent his demand. Treasury secretaries have long deferred to the head of the IRS on these matters, numerous congressional Democrats told Rettig in two days of testimony on Capitol Hill this week, but Rettig repeatedly said Treasury supervises the IRS.

That sort of pre-formulated answer means Rettig should think about stepping down, Pascrell said.

“Richie [Neal] made a request in narrow fashion, correctly, to the IRS commissioner,” Pascrell said. “Now that IRS commissioner must stand up for America, or maybe he should leave his job if he can’t.”
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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The Romulan Republic
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Re: House Ways and Means Committee formally demands IRS turn over six years of Trump's tax returns.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Treasury Secretary Mnuchin has refused to turn over Trump's tax returns.

https://www.businessinsider.com/treasur ... est-2019-5

Congressman Neal is considering the next step, including the possibility of subpoenas, followed by a lawsuit (or presumably the possibility of contempt charges like with Barr) if they don't comply with the subpoenas.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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GrosseAdmiralFox
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Re: House Ways and Means Committee formally demands IRS turn over six years of Trump's tax returns.

Post by GrosseAdmiralFox »

Yeah, the reason that the Dems are going through the process is that it allows them to show that they can govern and that they are willing to obey the rules. We've already got a contempt vote tomorrow and given that the House has a Dem lean at worst, contempt notices and the Master at Arms and his own police squad is going to be coming in to force compliance.

That's what Congressional Contempt is for, to force compliance with the poor sap to Congress. The GOP in the House are in a nasty catch-22 scenario, if they go with the Dems with the Contempt vote, then they'll get hanged by the base. If they vote against the Dems, they loose a potential weapon against a Dem administration...
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Ziggy Stardust
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Re: House Ways and Means Committee formally demands IRS turn over six years of Trump's tax returns.

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

That's what Congressional Contempt is for, to force compliance with the poor sap to Congress. The GOP in the House are in a nasty catch-22 scenario, if they go with the Dems with the Contempt vote, then they'll get hanged by the base. If they vote against the Dems, they loose a potential weapon against a Dem administration...
I'm not sure I follow why voting against the Dems results in them losing a potential weapon against a future administration? As long as the contempt vote and successive legal actions succeed, it will affirm that procedure as a valid and effective check on executive authority. The only way this undermines the use of contempt is if either the vote passes by the executive branch successfully ignores and contempt charge without repercussion, or if the vote loses and makes it more difficult for future Congress to rally the votes to try again.
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