Death from the Heavens (RAR)

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Re: Death from the Heavens (RAR)

Post by KraytKing » 2019-01-09 09:40am

There's the age-old imperialist strategy of supporting the weak and wannabes against those who had previously held power, which makes it tempting to offer my services to China, India, or Russia, and offer half a dozen sunk carriers as a sign of good faith. At the same time, I live in the United States, and rather like it here. In addition, the US has so much infrastructure built up for exerting global influence, it'd be a shame to waste it.

Geographically speaking, what would be the best location for the capital and primary military base of the new global empire? The terrain on location is pretty much a non-factor, you can bomb the highest mountains into plains. It just matters how easy it is to connect it over rail to the rest of the world.

Here's an idea. I wonder how many nerds would try and rise up, following the example set on screen of Rebels being unkillable. How many would die, thinking they could emulate those they saw onscreen? Since it's from such a romanticized universe, there would be a lot of people who would imagine themselves to be the heroes, and then die.

First order of business for me would be to evacuate everyone I know. No matter what, there are going to be powerful people who don't like me in this world. I don't want them to have any leverage, and I don't want my loved ones to suffer. Nor do I want any of them corrupted and used to sabotage me. The only option is to get them first.
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Re: Death from the Heavens (RAR)

Post by Tribble » 2019-01-09 09:50am

KraytKing wrote:
2019-01-09 09:40am

Here's an idea. I wonder how many nerds would try and rise up, following the example set on screen of Rebels being unkillable. How many would die, thinking they could emulate those they saw onscreen? Since it's from such a romanticized universe, there would be a lot of people who would imagine themselves to be the heroes, and then die.
You could always start by blowing up Comic-con; that should get the hard core ones out of the way. :P
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Re: Death from the Heavens (RAR)

Post by Jub » 2019-01-09 11:09am

Do any of you really think you have the stomach for genocide on the scale it would take to actually change the world via violence or the cunning to fix the world via subterfuge? Your plans are all basically not thought out and blatantly fucking awful.

My plan might be boring but most good plans have years of thought behind them.

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Re: Death from the Heavens (RAR)

Post by Crossroads Inc. » 2019-01-09 12:51pm

Jub wrote:
2019-01-09 11:09am
Do any of you really think you have the stomach for genocide on the scale it would take to actually change the world via violence or the cunning to fix the world via subterfuge? Your plans are all basically not thought out and blatantly fucking awful.

My plan might be boring but most good plans have years of thought behind them.
I believe my first comment was along the lines of:
"This will get Very Silly Very Quickly"

It always amuses me how people think they have a Ruthless Dictator capable of Genocide deep inside of them.
Although perhaps "Amuse" is not the best word. Still the best of these RAR's are the ones that make individuals think deeply about moral and ethical choices, especially ones where the forces involved are perhaps not quite so lop-sided.

I mean, the question of "Conquest" aside, or even "ZOMG SUPER SCI-FI TECH!" I have a chance to Explore the galaxy! I have a chance to do what Humanity has dreamed of since Astronomy became a thing, and to truly explore, investigate, and answer some of the most fundamental questions of science. The rest of the Galaxy is after all "OUR" galaxy, and one imagines not a Souped up Sci-Fi version. We will actually be able to explore and find the possibility of REAL alien civilizations.

Earth. I can come back to. For now, the Galaxy Awaits!
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Re: Death from the Heavens (RAR)

Post by Jub » 2019-01-09 01:01pm

Crossroads Inc. wrote:
2019-01-09 12:51pm
I believe my first comment was along the lines of:
"This will get Very Silly Very Quickly"

It always amuses me how people think they have a Ruthless Dictator capable of Genocide deep inside of them.
Although perhaps "Amuse" is not the best word. Still the best of these RAR's are the ones that make individuals think deeply about moral and ethical choices, especially ones where the forces involved are perhaps not quite so lop-sided.

I mean, the question of "Conquest" aside, or even "ZOMG SUPER SCI-FI TECH!" I have a chance to Explore the galaxy! I have a chance to do what Humanity has dreamed of since Astronomy became a thing, and to truly explore, investigate, and answer some of the most fundamental questions of science. The rest of the Galaxy is after all "OUR" galaxy, and one imagines not a Souped up Sci-Fi version. We will actually be able to explore and find the possibility of REAL alien civilizations.

Earth. I can come back to. For now, the Galaxy Awaits!
I'd be very tempted to grab up any friends and family willing to come along, along with enough donated genetic material from Earth to avoid any genetic bottleneck without relying on the SD's crew as breeding members, and just fuck off and never return.

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Re: Death from the Heavens (RAR)

Post by Tribble » 2019-01-09 01:07pm

Jub wrote:
2019-01-09 11:09am
Do any of you really think you have the stomach for genocide on the scale it would take to actually change the world via violence or the cunning to fix the world via subterfuge? Your plans are all basically not thought out and blatantly fucking awful.

My plan might be boring but most good plans have years of thought behind them.
We're talking about suddenly becoming the owners of a Stardestroyer that magically appeared out of nowhere. Relax.

And hey, at least I openly acknowledge I'd be quickly corrupted with that kind of power under my control.

Another feature of scenarios like this one on our board is that we inevitably fall into two camps - those like me which revel in the absurdity and dont take the idea all that seriously (even if we should), and those who think everyone who doesnt take whatever their version of the most ethical and moral approach for everything (including absurd fantasy scenarios) is a complete asshole.

Sometimes I find resulting flame war is more amsuing than the scenario itself. :lol:
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Re: Death from the Heavens (RAR)

Post by Jub » 2019-01-09 01:27pm

Tribble wrote:
2019-01-09 01:07pm
We're talking about suddenly becoming the owners of a Stardestroyer that magically appeared out of nowhere. Relax.

And hey, at least I openly acknowledge I'd be quickly corrupted with that kind of power under my control.

Another feature of scenarios like this one on our board is that we inevitably fall into two camps - those like me which revel in the absurdity and dont take the idea all that seriously (even if we should), and those who think everyone who doesnt take whatever their version of the most ethical and moral approach for everything (including absurd fantasy scenarios) is a complete asshole.

Sometimes I find resulting flame war is more amsuing than the scenario itself. :lol:
Yeah, I personally like the thought experiment side of these RARs more than the silly side, but there's value to both.

I see less value on the silly this time because it's not very clever to use weapons and soldiers as weapons and soldiers, especially when they're perfectly loyal and leaps and bounds ahead of any threat they might face.

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Re: Death from the Heavens (RAR)

Post by Imperial528 » 2019-01-09 01:29pm

What I'm wondering about is the crew, actually.

The Stormtroopers and elite units are absolutely loyal to you, but as stated in the OP, the crew are regular enlisted. Volunteer or not, I have to consider their well being.

Do these men and women have families they will now never see again? Given the nature of the scenario, their memories may well be fictional, but I still have to respect them. While jumping out to another star and setting up there is tempting, given their sudden isolation from the universe they had once known, I wouldn't expect my crew to be all that pleased about forbidding them from a civilized human world, even as technologically backwards modern Earth is by Imperial standards.

I think the better course of action would be to approach the United Nations to receive recognition for the people under my command as their own sovereign nation as a first start. From there, I've got some ideas about giving UN Peacekeeping forces some real meaning. As violent and authoritarian as the Empire is, the standard issue blaster has a stun setting that is far less dangerous and far more effective than modern methods such as tasers or tear gas.
I would make expansion of this technology to large scales and further increases to its safety the primary focus of the skilled members of the crew who are suited to research and development. Perhaps approach specific research groups on Earth for added brainpower. When it becomes a real possibility to disable an army without killing a man, military intervention may be possible to do so ethically, and real good could be done for the world. Hopefully, I would be able to establish my nation-ship as a respected member of the international community and disinterested moderator of international disputes, while rendering aid to global peacekeeping and using what resources or technology I have to help fight global poverty.

Once established I would let my crew mingle with the groundside population, with proper security precautions put in place, so that they do not become isolated or detached. Ideally, the crew would come to embrace Earth as, if not home, at least a world that they are comfortable with, and the people of Earth will get a taste for what an ethically unified world is capable of.

EDIT: If Imperial ion weaponry is effective against modern vehicles and non-lethal to the crews of those vehicles, this combined with stun weaponry presents an avenue for disabling even modern armies with limited or no bloodshed.

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Re: Death from the Heavens (RAR)

Post by Crossroads Inc. » 2019-01-09 02:04pm

Well that blew up fast!
Wish I’d stayed home a bit later to respond to some of the posts. At work now and only on my cell phone.
Have to say to Imperial, your post is by far one of the most thought through in terms of the moral question of suddenly being responsible for about 60,000 sentient individuals. However “real” their memories are, they have thought, needs and concerns that must be respected and considered.

Also not the topic of “Ansoultly Loyal” Troops...
This is usually thrown out in a RAR mostly so those involved can freely enjoy a setting without having to worry about a mutiny or being shot in the back one day... But exactly how much does this hinder free will and mental judgment? If I might possibly make a decision that would endanger the ship or crew, will someone speak up and say so? Will I trust reports to give information I may not agree with? At what point does free will assert itself?


Leaving such thoughts for now... The thoughts on “Stun” weponary is one seldom implemented even within StarWars. When one considers the inherent dangers and abuses of modern tasers, tear gas, and other such items. A “safe” one shot stun device would utterly revolutionize not just warfare, but police as well.
Sure it may be abused by Cops, but I’d rather a person needlessly stunned then shot.

The same goes with Ion weaponry. The concept of not just bloodless, but almost damageless conflicts would change the world. Again yes they can be abused, but imagine a “Police Action” in a crowded urban setting... that involved no “explosions” no destruction of infrastructure, hospitals, schools, homes, the list goes on.

As far as going back to the welfare of the people on the ISD.
I can understand wanting to have them mingle with a “civilized” planet and such. And that will certainly happen in time, but I think the immediate exploration of local space and finding a habitable world, or even the possibility of another alien civilization a more pressing concern.

That
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Re: Death from the Heavens (RAR)

Post by Enigma » 2019-01-09 07:12pm

Do we get a choice in Star Destroyers? I'm quite partial to an Eclipse or Sovereign..... :)
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Re: Death from the Heavens (RAR)

Post by KraytKing » 2019-01-10 09:58am

Jub, you address a good point. Ordering genocide, even so far removed from the actual damage, requires significant balls. I don't believe, on close examination, that I would be able to do it. Furthermore, governing the world would be stressful, and I don't think I would actually want to do it.

However.

I know myself well enough that suddenly being the most powerful man in history would have a negative impact on my mental health. Once I'd covered my bases by removing family and friends to my new moon base, I would probably spend some time walking among the nations of Earth as a god. Requisition trooper armor, add a cape, and walk around with a squad of bodyguards, invincible (more or less). Earlier, I joked about attacking the White House with overwhelming force. Now, I believe I would, if only to indulge my fancy. Watching the previous superpower be crushed by a few hundred men out of a sci fi universe would be simply fantastic. The only thing better would be watching some die-hard patriot as the country they loved was cast out of the spotlight forever.


Imperial528, this is the most viable option yet given. Establishing control of the world quickly, even when given the means, would be difficult. Rapid change is always going to make enemies. Improving the world slowly through more conventional means, the way you described, would be much more viable long-term. You make changes without provoking most of the population to armed rebellion.


On trooper loyalty, you don't have to worry about mutiny unless you routinely endanger the crew with no thought to its effects. Remember, while they aren't fanatically loyal like the stormtroopers, they aren't conscripts, either. THey have competent officers they know well, and those officers aren't mindless drones either. If you attempt to commit a stupid act, the officers will warn you before they obey. They are subject to morale issues, as Imperial discussed, but that isn't terribly likely to move them to mutiny.

Keep in mind, Vader never faced mutinies despite routinely executing men and leading in a rather reckless manner. Stormtroopers are a pretty good motivator, as they will never mutiny and are the most experienced at fighting on board ships. The Empire keeps agents embedded in the enlisted crew to prevent ship defection, with instructions to scuttle the ship if it looks like it will fall to the enemy. In our case, if they smell a mutiny, they will report it to the stormtroopers, who will proceed to shut it down. Unless the mutineers get the entire crew and Army to fight, they probably will lose to the concerted, organized, and most importantly preemptive effort of fifteen thousand stormtroopers.

And I imagine the idea of Storm Commandos coming to visit is also pretty terrifying.


A bit more on Imperial's proposition: It would be interesting to be the most powerful member of the UN, and be truly impartial. When a Middle Eastern nation dissolves into civil war, you shut it down. When Russia takes another bite out of Ukraine, you shut it down. When the US deploys military toops unconstitutionally, you shut it down. That would be truly beautiful.
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Re: Death from the Heavens (RAR)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-01-10 12:30pm

Endorse Bernie Sanders for 2020?

Seriously, I'm a man with an invincible space ship. Swinging my support for politicians and policies will now suddenly have a lot of clout. Whether they'll respect my voice, or rebel against it.... *shrug*
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Re: Death from the Heavens (RAR)

Post by Solauren » 2019-01-10 09:44pm

What manufacturing abilities does my ship have?
What medical tech and knowledge? Can I cure cancer? Can I easily provide the means to mass produce the cure?
What about other tech? Could I say hand the largest car manufacturer(s) in the world engine designs that produce harmless byproducts? Full EM Spectrum Solar Panels?
Can the control method for my troops (my choice - perfect loyalty chips) be reproduced?

If so, I could reveal myself to the world, and offer tech partnerships to companies in exchange for money.
All initial tech offerings will be to replace technology which is harming the planet.

I can then use that money to set up medical manufacturing. I won't share they under the pretense that it could be weaponized and wipe out all life on Earth. I reveal the extent of my medical tech, and start setting up I.M.O's. (Imperial Medical Organizations). I'll even offer to hire Earth doctors, and train them. This manufacturing will be done by Imperials/my crew, and droids. (Tresspassers will be liquidated, and I'll make it clear I mean that literally...)

People will come to me for treatments that real-world Earth can't match. Cures for Cancer and other diseases. Especially the rich and powerful. (Treatments will be a bit expensive at first as things 'tool up'.) And while they are under Imperial Care, they'll get loyalty chip implanted. First thing, is they chance doctors to the local IMO. Second thing, they bring in their family for a full check up and innoculations.

I'll also do medical and food aid missions, including helping out the homeless.

And as a gesture of good will, I'll begin working with the worlds governments to help clean up all 'garbage dumps', the oceanic garbage patches, etc.
(Since Star Destroyers can operate in planetary atmospheres, -= thank you Rogue One =-, I'll just such them all up via tractor beam).
If I even have one mining ship on board, I'll have a molecular furnace to recycle it all. Otherwise, I'll have to find a place to store it.

I figure I could take that approach to take control of the planet within a few decades.
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Re: Death from the Heavens (RAR)

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-01-10 10:05pm

Solauren wrote:
2019-01-10 09:44pm
Full EM Spectrum Solar Panels?
Now there's an idea. If TIE fighter panels can be made on-board the ship, and they're solar panels, you may have the key to a completely solar driven fleet of passenger vehicles.
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Re: Death from the Heavens (RAR)

Post by KraytKing » 2019-01-10 10:31pm

Solauren wrote:
2019-01-10 09:44pm
What manufacturing abilities does my ship have?
Small ones. Replacement parts for tanks, components of the ship, blasters and trooper armor.
What medical tech and knowledge? Can I cure cancer? Can I easily provide the means to mass produce the cure?
You have bacta. As nobody in Star Wars appears to have cancer, I guess your medical droids are really good at removing tumours and bacta can kill cancer cells.
What about other tech? Could I say hand the largest car manufacturer(s) in the world engine designs that produce harmless byproducts? Full EM Spectrum Solar Panels?
You have the reactors on your tanks, which are a bit big for a personal vehicle to carry. Not to say you couldn't go about removing fusion reactors from tanks and TIEs and emplacing them into power grids.

People will come to me for treatments that real-world Earth can't match. Cures for Cancer and other diseases. Especially the rich and powerful. (Treatments will be a bit expensive at first as things 'tool up'.) And while they are under Imperial Care, they'll get loyalty chip implanted. First thing, is they chance doctors to the local IMO. Second thing, they bring in their family for a full check up and innoculations.
Ah, I see. No, stormtroopers are absolutely loyal due to years of intensive training and indoctrination, not mind control. The Clone Wars arc where they established the chip thing was one of the worst I ever saw, and that's saying something for that series. You can't reproduce stormtroopers. Once they're dead, their loyalty dies with them.

You would certainly gain influence over the elite, particularly if you keep secrets to yourself. You'll be the one they come to for any maladies, so they'll want to keep you on friendly terms.
(Since Star Destroyers can operate in planetary atmospheres,
No.
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Re: Death from the Heavens (RAR)

Post by madd0ct0r » 2019-01-11 03:53pm

I think i would take Imperial's route, but without the niceness.

Announce that within ten years all fossil fuel power plants will be destroyed from orbit. Oil and coal mines to follow.
Announce that unless fresh clean drinking water is routinely available, i start shooting at failing governments on a random basis.

Anyone deploying troops will be attacked.
Anyone can petition for a safe zone to be established, if granted, any one approaching those with a weapon is destroyed.

I hope they come at me with nukes. Easiest way to get rid of them.
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Re: Death from the Heavens (RAR)

Post by Elheru Aran » 2019-01-11 04:59pm

KraytKing wrote:
2019-01-10 10:31pm
(Since Star Destroyers can operate in planetary atmospheres,
No.
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Re: Death from the Heavens (RAR)

Post by Crazedwraith » 2019-01-11 06:26pm

Elheru Aran wrote:
2019-01-11 04:59pm
KraytKing wrote:
2019-01-10 10:31pm
(Since Star Destroyers can operate in planetary atmospheres,
No.
Image

:?: :?: :?:
He's using WEG Star Destroyer not disney canon. Old EU held ISDs couldn't. Only smaller ships like VicStars.

Though tbf he also referenced Rogue One's Death Troopers in his OP.
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Re: Death from the Heavens (RAR)

Post by Gandalf » 2019-01-11 07:12pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
2019-01-11 06:26pm
He's using WEG Star Destroyer not disney canon. Old EU held ISDs couldn't. Only smaller ships like VicStars.

Though tbf he also referenced Rogue One's Death Troopers in his OP.
Didn't Venators land in the old canon?
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Re: Death from the Heavens (RAR)

Post by KraytKing » 2019-01-11 07:35pm

A Venator is a fraction of the mass and volume of an ISD. Additionally, it was not unveiled until well after people started ignoring WEG.

Maddoc, wouldn't that just serve to create a lot of global hostility the way the US has? The beauty of Imperial's way is that he is still (mostly) safe to walk on the Earth's surface, so long as he keeps a guard nearby. Your way, you better hope you got everyone you know off beforehand, because anyone planetside is going to be grabbed by every nation's black ops organization(s) and be put through the nearest approximation to hell as can be come up with. And leaving home without half a hundred stormtroopers at your back would be asking for trouble.

I would like to be able to go hiking again. I'd probably try and keep my identity a secret just so I can keep interacting with nature. The problem with that is that if my identity is discovered and I don't know it, my guard will be a little ways out, too far to deal with an assassination attempt.

After a while of playing peacekeeper, I might just conquer a nice small nation for myself. Just go ahead and collect Germany. Orbit drop my army on all major points of value in the country and emplace a puppet government after ridding myself of the elected one, then say it was a merger and the two nations are one now. That, of course, would bring the temptation to forcibly rebuild the German Empire (man, how about that for allegory taken literally), so maybe I'd go with France.
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Re: Death from the Heavens (RAR)

Post by Imperial528 » 2019-01-11 08:38pm

One thing I would be wary about with any plan which relies on overt violent force is that frankly, you have limited resources, and time is one of them.

Whether Star Wars tech can prolong your lifespan (which I am sure it can) is one thing, but do you have the resources to prolong the period of peak fitness of your elite soldiers? Against world you have almost certainly made more enemies than friends in, can you afford to risk recruiting from the locals to replace your losses? Your soldiers are tough, but they are not invincible. They will die in battle or at the very least, age to the point of ineffectiveness. It doesn't matter if it takes a thousand modern soldiers to reliably kill a single Stormtrooper when you will be facing a planet with a population in the billions. And any replacements will lack the same degree of loyalty.

Orbital bombardment may seem a solution, but we've seen just how long into defeat human beings will keep fighting, and I would not be surprised if many areas would sooner have cities turned to ruins than surrender to literal invaders from space. Plus, no matter how much technology has advanced, time has proven that the only way to ensure conquest is with boots on the ground. The total soldiers provided in this scenario aren't even enough to police New York City; there's no way you would be able to feasibly occupy any nation with populations in the millions.

Violence very plausibly turns a scenario where you are already working from the worst possible logistics nightmare into a logistics impossibility, where the only inhabited world has its industrial capacity completely wiped out in the course of war, at least as Imperial standards go.

Star Destroyers are tough and last a long time but after a few decades, when the spare parts are sure to have run low, what are you going to do?

I would prefer to have a friendly world I can work with towards a better future. Not one that is, at best, scheming on how to take advantage of a tyrant's eventual death and the resultant power vacuum.

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Re: Death from the Heavens (RAR)

Post by Lord Revan » 2019-01-12 03:32am

Orbital Bombardment is solution for conquest only if you're only conserned about capturing the "zone" but not worried about reducing said "zone" into a useless wasteland.

As I've said before indiscriminate bombardment will most likely cause unacceptble levels of collateral damage, sure you might destroy the enemy soldiers but very likely you'll also destroy what ever resources you wanted to capture.

Factories that are reduced to rubble will not produce anything, roads and landing pads full of craters will be at best of extremely limited use and more likely utterly useless and workers whose homes you have vaporized will either be dead or very reluctant to work for you, sure those workers might work if you put a metaphorical gun to their heads but you'd have to keep constant watch over them for sign of disloyality.
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Re: Death from the Heavens (RAR)

Post by Enigma » 2019-01-12 05:43pm

Patent everything possible of what I own, since I've got a shiny new (new to me) Star Destroyer with all of it's nifty tech (except weaponry, armor and shields. Gotta keep those secret. :) ) and license the technology to those that can afford it for a nice percentage of the gross profits.

Start collaborating with the space agencies of various agencies for scientific research, space exploration, moon\Mars bases, etc...

But I'd also do humanitarian work (or at least help set up), in providing either clean water of the means to produce it. Free food and healthcare for the poor and underprivileged.

Once I have a decent cash flow going, I'd either set up education centers around the world for free secondary education (i.e. college, uni) (free for the poor but prorated fee based on household income above a certain amount) based on learning the new tech and the science behind it and recruit the best and brightest.

I'd definitely wouldn't resort to violence to get what I want. I'd do my best to help.
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Re: Death from the Heavens (RAR)

Post by Crossroads Inc. » 2019-01-12 06:28pm

Echoing the last few comments, direct conquest is really not a long term viable option.
Aside form the destruction of earth industrial areas (not to mention general populated cited) any "winner" from such an engagement would be ruling over a pile of molten rubble. For anyone wanting to really do the "World Domination" route, you have to look at the "long game" as it were.

Piggy backing on Imperial528, regardless of how much you can use the ship to "Dominant" the planet. When it comes to a global invasion, 60,000 forces is not a large amount. And even with Star Wars med-tech, you are looking at perhaps 20 to 30 years of "front line" life for your soldiers before they would begin to retire from old age. I mean, unless you some how set up a Kimonin style cloning center, you are just not going to be able to replace you forces on a large scale.

"Magnamous Humanitarian" is probably the best long term route to go really.

Something else that just accused to me...
It would be Hella useful to reverse engineer Droids! You want to talk about solving certain labor shortages? Or why work on trying to get your scientists to engineer things when you could build a number of R2 units to act as a brain trust ?
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