cleaning up shit in San Francisco

[Broomstick]

Speaking of public rest stops, that's the other major exception to there not being public restroom facilities in the United States. The interstate highway system has periodic public rest stops, usually with maps available, picnic grounds, and public restrooms. But those are extremely inconvenient to get to unless actually traveling via highway in a car, which doesn't help urban homeless populations very much.

A lot of the interstate rest stops are being closed, though, usually with the excuse "budget cuts". There are maybe half as many on my usual routes (Chicago to Detroit, Chicago to Buffalo, NY) as there were even five years ago.

[Jub]

The same thing happened here in BC. Technically it's not a rest stop but a tourist information center. With the rise of Google people have stopped in less and less.

They're planning to put in a replacement rest area at some point but I'm not sure what's going on in the meantime.

EDIT: I did a quick search and it looks like they're closing it because a new rest stop run by a different provincial ministry was built close by.

[Elheru Aran]

Yeah, while interstate rest stops and country gas stations might not have a problem with people popping in to do their business, that's almost always not really an option in urban areas. Go into any small urban gas station, and it's a toss-up whether they'll let you in the back to use the employee restroom if they don't even have one for customers (not unusual).

Homelessness is also less of an issue in the country. Not quite sure why. More extended family willing to take in people in difficulties? Lower cost of living (likely)? Or most probably-- someone loses their house in the country, they just move to wherever they can find something, rather than sticking around and trying to make ends meet somehow.

[Lonestar]

I feel as if that there are a lot more transients who live in the woods in the country than in urban areas. yeah, I've seen campsites in urban parks. I have also seen coworkers/relatives who live in rural areas and catch people on game cams on their property.

[Zaune]

It's probably at least partly a population density thing: There are more visibly homeless people in urban areas simply because there are more people in general. But in the rural US it's easier for homeless people to stay off the radar, which I imagine has both drawbacks and benefits compared to being urban homeless: Fewer charitable organisations where you can get a meal and a shower but less chance of being hassled by officialdom for pitching a tent, for example.

[JI_Joe84]

I feel as if that there are a lot more transients who live in the woods in the country than in urban areas. yeah, I've seen campsites in urban parks. I have also seen coworkers/relatives who live in rural areas and catch people on game cams on their property.

Try living next to a trailer park with a couple acres of woods in between. You will see druggies and dealers "camping out" all the time. Yup.
There isn't as much charity organizations at least in small towns where I have lived. Rural "God fear'in folk" tend to snear at charities as wasteful or schemes to steal you're money like some pyramid scheme.
It's like seriously how do you people get these ideas? Most can't answer because they know they just pulled it out of their ass.
Urban areas where are you going to camp and not be seen? I mean if its really big city down town the there really is no where to hide I would guess. Not a big city guy here, I get in, get done what ever I'm doing and then get out.
I was surprised by a small town (about 100k pop. give or take a few people) actually had quite a few homeless and didn't notice until the showed up at all the major intersections all at once. They kind of screwed up doing that cause the whole town was like "ewe, get rid of them" and so they ended up getting kicked around a lot.
There was a rumor started that went, "it's st. Louis, they bought them a bus ticket and shipped them all here" I couldn't believe a full grown adult old woman would say that out loud. LOL

[Surlethe]

I feel as if that there are a lot more transients who live in the woods in the country than in urban areas. yeah, I've seen campsites in urban parks. I have also seen coworkers/relatives who live in rural areas and catch people on game cams on their property.

Try living next to a trailer park with a couple acres of woods in between. You will see druggies and dealers "camping out" all the time. Yup.
There isn't as much charity organizations at least in small towns where I have lived. Rural "God fear'in folk" tend to snear at charities as wasteful or schemes to steal you're money like some pyramid scheme.
It's like seriously how do you people get these ideas? Most can't answer because they know they just pulled it out of their ass.

I think it's a symptom of distrust. "They're wasteful or a scheme to steal my money" seems like it carries an implicit, "for all I know." If someone's not plugged into a community of folks who know and deal with the homeless, and if their experience of the homeless is walking past beggars and smelly sleeping folks, then they don't have any way of seeing the impact of their giving - and so they don't have any way of evaluating the impact of their donation. Double that if they're also convinced that there's not a lot of structural barriers in most people's ways, so that they see poverty as a symptom of moral failure, not the vicissitudes of life.

Urban areas where are you going to camp and not be seen? I mean if its really big city down town the there really is no where to hide I would guess. Not a big city guy here, I get in, get done what ever I'm doing and then get out.

In a big city there's all sorts of nooks and crannies. In Chicago, for example, there's informal encampments under railroad bridges, and many more places to curl up and sleep.

[JI_Joe84]

I feel as if that there are a lot more transients who live in the woods in the country than in urban areas. yeah, I've seen campsites in urban parks. I have also seen coworkers/relatives who live in rural areas and catch people on game cams on their property.

Try living next to a trailer park with a couple acres of woods in between. You will see druggies and dealers "camping out" all the time. Yup.
There isn't as much charity organizations at least in small towns where I have lived. Rural "God fear'in folk" tend to snear at charities as wasteful or schemes to steal you're money like some pyramid scheme.
It's like seriously how do you people get these ideas? Most can't answer because they know they just pulled it out of their ass.

I think it's a symptom of distrust. "They're wasteful or a scheme to steal my money" seems like it carries an implicit, "for all I know." If someone's not plugged into a community of folks who know and deal with the homeless, and if their experience of the homeless is walking past beggars and smelly sleeping folks, then they don't have any way of seeing the impact of their giving - and so they don't have any way of evaluating the impact of their donation. Double that if they're also convinced that there's not a lot of structural barriers in most people's ways, so that they see poverty as a symptom of moral failure, not the vicissitudes of life.

Urban areas where are you going to camp and not be seen? I mean if its really big city down town the there really is no where to hide I would guess. Not a big city guy here, I get in, get done what ever I'm doing and then get out.

In a big city there's all sorts of nooks and crannies. In Chicago, for example, there's informal encampments under railroad bridges, and many more places to curl up and sleep.

The rural bible thumpers talk a big talk about being generous and the better person but pass a collection hat and you will come up with negative money.
Seems to me they want money/opportunity to come to them, and no one else until they are happy then cut it off.
Its very trump doctrine, and now that he is pres. they think this is a vallid ideology that they can express publicly. Most times it has gotten them fired/ kicked out at least that I have seen.
Homeless are homeless for a reason and until that problem is addressed the "homeless problem" will continue and get worse.
No one just gets up and walks out of their house and jumps in the gutter willingly. There is a reason it happens and my personal belief is that its all ways the drugs. That's the only thing that would both skrew a person out of their home and do it in such a way that they could not come up with a better plan than "I'll just go beg on the street for money and live in a box" so they end up screwed, no money, no plan B.

Just giving cash is a bad thing I think because they can go trade it for drugs, its kind of hard to trade a cheese burger or a plate from a soup kitchen for drugs. And I have offered to buy $10 dollars of stuff from a McDonald's sitting right next to a 4 way stop light and the homeless guy said,"why not just give me the money?" I said if you will go to the McDonald's I will buy some food, then he got very ticked off, made a "pfff" and went to the next car down and started on them.
He is after the drugs, That's what it is all about. The pull of addiction is incredibly strong and people who have never felt it can not understand how it could rule you're life. But that is what it does.

[Zaune]

Just giving cash is a bad thing I think because they can go trade it for drugs, its kind of hard to trade a cheese burger or a plate from a soup kitchen for drugs. And I have offered to buy $10 dollars of stuff from a McDonald's sitting right next to a 4 way stop light and the homeless guy said,"why not just give me the money?" I said if you will go to the McDonald's I will buy some food, then he got very ticked off, made a "pfff" and went to the next car down and started on them.
He is after the drugs, That's what it is all about. The pull of addiction is incredibly strong and people who have never felt it can not understand how it could rule you're life. But that is what it does.

Unless he needed the money to buy soap, a razor, sunscreen, matches...

I'm not saying that buying food isn't ever helpful, but it's not the only thing homeless people might be in need of.

[FaxModem1]

The rural bible thumpers talk a big talk about being generous and the better person but pass a collection hat and you will come up with negative money.
Seems to me they want money/opportunity to come to them, and no one else until they are happy then cut it off.
Its very trump doctrine, and now that he is pres. they think this is a vallid ideology that they can express publicly. Most times it has gotten them fired/ kicked out at least that I have seen.
Homeless are homeless for a reason and until that problem is addressed the "homeless problem" will continue and get worse.
No one just gets up and walks out of their house and jumps in the gutter willingly. There is a reason it happens and my personal belief is that its all ways the drugs. That's the only thing that would both skrew a person out of their home and do it in such a way that they could not come up with a better plan than "I'll just go beg on the street for money and live in a box" so they end up screwed, no money, no plan B.

Im guessing you have had a very fortunate life. Because you're speaking from partial if not complete ignorance. Either that or you're trolling. Have you ever had a few problems hit you all at once? Or had one problem escalate another?

Assume someone has a low income job, and are living paycheck to paycheck. Now imagine they have an accident. This accident prevents this person from working, so they get fired. Because they can't earn money to pay bills, they lose access to things, such as internet, utilities, and eventually the apartment/house they live in. Boom. They're homeless, hopefully staying with a friend, maybe living in their car. Unless losing their car was what started this mess.

If you can afford financial cushions such as full auto insurance, and health insurance, you don't have to face this nightmare. Hell, if you have enough savings to pay your bills while looking for work, you can survive. But that money can disappear quickly.

And that is why it's not all about the drugs.

Just giving cash is a bad thing I think because they can go trade it for drugs, its kind of hard to trade a cheese burger or a plate from a soup kitchen for drugs. And I have offered to buy $10 dollars of stuff from a McDonald's sitting right next to a 4 way stop light and the homeless guy said,"why not just give me the money?" I said if you will go to the McDonald's I will buy some food, then he got very ticked off, made a "pfff" and went to the next car down and started on them.
He is after the drugs, That's what it is all about. The pull of addiction is incredibly strong and people who have never felt it can not understand how it could rule you're life. But that is what it does.

Maybe the previous three people bought him food, and he wants to buy something that'll last longer than a day, because hamburgers spoil? Or maybe he'd like to have money so that he can sleep in a motel for the night instead of the street? How do you know what he's getting the money for?

Edit: Yes, drugs are a problem in homeless populations. But that is usually after they become homeless, because they need an escape from how awful their lives have become. And any escape is better than no escape.

[FaxModem1]

And because this became a full on homelessness thread, I'm going to post something here that I wrote elsewhere:

Let's talk about homelessness.

Those who can work:

There are a few ideas about homeless that need to be addressed. The idea of the 'no such thing as a free meal', Social Darwinism, and the free market economy. Yes, it's true. Someone, somewhere, is paying for that meal, somehow, in some way. This is usually brought in with the idea of tax cuts, national spending, and how it's unfair for those who work to pay for those who don't. However, it also runs into a few fallacies about human nature, and about the current stance of economics with technology. We need to deal with an issue. Why are people homeless? There's a huge wave of homeless people called 'couch surfers'. They bunk with friends, associates, or family, and due to falling on hard times, live in someone else's home until they can get back on their feet. This mostly goes unreported, because it's not 'real homelessness'.

This already shows you that other people are already being taxed in support of their fellow person, those being taxed are just blood related or kind enough to help a friend. While this goes on, we also have a lot of homeless people who are filling shelters, living in cars, under bridges, alleyways, etc. Not all of these are accounted for, but they are numerous. What causes them to be homeless? Cost of Living, and sudden changes in quality of life due to an emergency or crisis. A person has a car wreck, and their car is totaled. They can't get to work, so they lose their job. So, they lose both their mode of transport, and also their ability to support themselves. This, in addition to cost of living being equal to, if not greater than, their wages, puts them into a downward spiral that they can't get out of. This is where being on the fringes of poverty just continues to hurt you.

Here is something that might shock some people, or be denied by others. But the big thing that needs to be addressed is the idea that homeless means jobless. THIS IS A MYTH! HOMELESS PEOPLE WORK There are many homeless people who actually work 9 to 5 jobs. And gigs, part time work, and everything in-between. There are people who work above 40 hours a week, and don't have enough to rent an apartment on their own. Instead, they either crash at someone's apartment, or live in a vehicle.

Why do they do this? Because they have no choice. Usually, they fell behind on their bills, had no recourse, and lost it all, because their bills were greater than their salaries. And we are talking about things like rent, groceries, car payments, utilities. This is why there's an increasing likelihood of homelessness for the working class. Injuries and medical conditions increase, and that requires additional money. Choosing between rent, and treating an illness or injury, and they must make a hard choice between the two. And there is no support mechanism to help them. And even while they work to feed themselves and pay off creditors IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO GET THEM OUT OF THEIR SITUATION.

Or if there is, it's in the form of charity, which is in such small supply that demand vastly outweighs it to the point of being a token effort. Organizations dedicated to helping the homeless often have narrow focuses, have limited means due to only having money from grants and private donations, and choose survival of their organization over helping those that need it, as demand is far higher than supply.

If this is preventable, and due to the amount of wealth in the developed world, it is at least in the Developed world, is it better to have people who have had rotten luck fail to the point of starvation and homelessness, or is it better for them to have a cushion to succeed in if they fail? Yes, very much so.

Countries like Denmark, Sweden, and Finland take care of their unfortunate, preventing this kind of financial free fall that happens to their citizens. It is done through taxes and federal programs.

For those who don't care about their fellow man, I'm sorry that you feel that way. But, if you want to look at the cost benefit analysis.

It is cheaper to have a working populace that is clothed, fed, and housed, thereby being more productive than it is ones who are either A, not working, and therefore not contributing to society, or B, committing crimes and being punished for their crimes, while at the same time not working, or C, working, but spending their incomes on basic needs as opposed to pursuing their incomes to bettering their situations and helping out the local economy.

And it creates a culture of those who are on the dole wanting to get off of it to stop being viewed as someone who isn't doing their part.

For the homeless who are mentally ill.

In the United States, we used to have medical clinics and facilities for the mentally ill. The 1980s killed that stone dead with cutting of social programs in the name of tax cuts. Waves of mentally ill people had nowhere to go if they were having trouble surviving but the streets. This has become the new norm. So much so, that visitors from other Developed nations experience culture shock in how little we (don't) medically treat our failing population. Healthcare, both medical and physical, is always cheaper in prevention than in emergency care. Failure to do so prevents productive members of society who have treatable conditions from contributing to their economy and nation.

For the homeless who are just simply old.

This is the big one. People get old, and their pension doesn't go as far as it used to. Neither does Social Security. And neither does Welfare. Or they were simply unable to plan for retirement due to working paycheck to paycheck their entire lives. As stated above, one bad bill causes a downward spiral, and they start to lose things. If they have family that can take care of them, then great. However, that is a burden on the family, and will negatively affect them in having an extra mouth to feed, without having the equivalent in earning power, and can further domino the effect if they run into financial problems. There's a huge problem in our society of not caring what happens to the elderly that failed.

Just remember, thou are mortal. And your fortune could go the same way theirs did.

But they deserve it, because they didn't succeed
This is where we run into the concept of the genetic lottery. Not everyone was born with a golden ticket. Some can crawl out of poverty and become a millionaire. However, that kind of success is rare. Most work for most of their lives, and couldn't raise their livelihood due to their wages not spreading around as much as possible. As noted, wages have not been keeping up with costs. And even if people do fail, is failure's punishment really starvation and homelessness?

If compassion does nothing for you, remember that people take greater chances when they have less chance of failure, and are willing to try greater financial risks if they know that failure will not equal homelessness. This allows greater chances of entrepreneurship, and greater chances of smaller businesses taking off. This allows the economy to boost itself.

Conclusion

Will all be useful members of society? No. No one is saying that they will be. But we would see the gains, morally, economically, and locally, far outweigh the costs, if those who try and fail, or fail through no fault of their own, are taken care of by society. And ensure that those of use who do fail in the upcoming years have an option in case it happens to one of us.