Who Decided to Remove the Children?

[LadyTevar]

LINK

Reality Check: Who decided to take away children at the US border?

The claim: US President Donald Trump says the Democrats created a law that separates children from parents who cross the US-Mexico border illegally.

Verdict: There is no law on separating children from parents at the border, but rather a policy introduced recently by the Trump administration.

The policy has led to 1,995 children being separated from families at the border between 19 April and 31 May, in addition to a further 700 children since October 2017.

Changes under Mr Trump's Zero-Tolerance Policy include expediting the process to determine eligibility to remain, promptly removing those who are denied, and criminally prosecuting migrants for first-time border offences, which were previously treated as civil violations.

Because the children of prosecuted migrants are not charged with any crime, they are not permitted to be jailed with their parents. But in addition to removing children from apprehended illegal migrants, children have been separated from asylum-seekers.

Seeking asylum is not illegal.

The president blamed Democrats for the policy. In May, he urged putting "pressure on the Democrats to end the horrible law that separates children (from) their parents once they cross the Border in the US".

On 16 June, he tweeted "Democrats can fix their forced family break-up at the border by working with Republicans on new legislation, for a change!" and two days later accused the Democrats of being "weak and ineffective" with border security.
There is no law that mandates separating children from parents who cross the border illegally.

In 1997, Democratic President Bill Clinton signed the Flores Settlement law that required unaccompanied minors who arrive in the US to be released to their parents, a legal guardian or an adult relative, If no relatives are available then the relevant government agency can appoint an appropriate adult to look after the child.

And in 2008, Republican President George W. Bush signed an anti-trafficking statute that requires unaccompanied minors to be transferred out of immigration centres within 72 hours. Neither of these recommends separating families.

The policy is meant to deter illegal immigration.

"If you don't want your child separated, then don't bring them across the border illegally," said Attorney General Jeff Sessions.

He followed this up in several interviews, saying, "We're doing the right thing. We're taking care of these children.

"Our policies are discouraging people from making children endure that treacherous journey."

In February, the American Civil Liberties Union filed a lawsuit on behalf of a mother from Congo to have her seven-year-old daughter returned to her, after the little girl was held separately for more than four months during their application for asylum. The same organisation is seeking a nationwide injunction against separating families.

On 16 June, First Lady Melania Trump made the same assertion as her husband, blaming politicians for her husband's own policy.

Her spokesperson said: "Mrs Trump hates to see children separated from their families and hopes both sides of the aisle can finally come together to achieve successful immigration reform. She believes we need to be a country that follows all laws, but also a country that governs with heart."

[TheFeniX]

"Hey man, it turns out American don't like illegals, but they aren't cool with children being abused. What's our play?"
"Who let the new guy in here? We do what we always do: blame Democrats."

Trump is such a fucking whimp. IF I had to come up with one big reason I hate Republicans, ignoring all the vile shit, is that they are consistently tough AGAINST those groups who either can't fight back or no one cares to fight back on their behalf. But then they bumble-fuck into hot water and, provided they care to comment at all, they become the biggest bunch of crybabies.

Dumpf: "I do whatever I want do for AMERICAN MAKE GREAT!"
"So, why not just NOT remove children from their parents. Fuck the law, right?"
Derpf: "THE DEMOCRATS WON'T LET MEEEEEEEE!"

What a fucking Chickenshit.

[houser2112]

Verdict: There is no law on separating children from parents at the border, but rather a policy introduced recently by the Trump administration.

This is great. Why have I heard nothing from the Democrats or the media asserting this? Why aren't they drawing attention to the fact that if it's an Obama executive order, just refuse to implement it, and if it's a law the the Democrats crafted, the Republicans control the Presidency and both houses of Congress, repeal the law.

[Broomstick]

Becuase NEITHER of those two is true.

It is NOT an Obama executive order

It is NOT a law at all, and it was not crafted by either party in prior administrations.

IT IS A TRUMP ADMINISTRATION CHOICE TO SEPARATE CHILDREN FROM THEIR FAMILIES. THIS IS SOLELY ON TRUMP AND HIS ADMINISTRATION. HE AND HIS GET THE BLAME.

Now, you piece of authoritarian apologist shit, take your half-drunk Kool-Aid and fuck off.

[Crazedwraith]

Becuase NEITHER of those two is true.

Pretty sure that you've entirely misread houser's comment there. He's not support the republican view he's just asking why the democrat's haven't hit back.

[Broomstick]

The problem is that he already repeating half the lie.

As I said: It is NOT an Obama executive order. Therefore, do not say, "if it is an Obama executive order..." because it isn't one and don't give the Trump camp any room to imply that it is.

As I said: it is NOT a law. Therefore, do not say "if it is a law the Democrats crafted..." because it isn't one and don't give the Trump camp any room to imply that it is.

Refute both of those for the full lies that they are. There is no executive order. There is no law. This is something the Trump Administration cooked up and they want to blame it on others. It is vital that the lies of this administration be refuted in full with no waffling. We are starting to slide down a slope I don't want to be on. Now is the time to start digging in heels to stop it.

[Crazedwraith]

It's still a valid argument to say 'that's not true, and even if it was true, it wouldn't excuse what you were doing since you have control of the government can repeal Democrat laws.'

Just because it's not your preferred line of argument doesn't warrant supersized text and calling people authoritarian apologists.

[FireNexus]

Verdict: There is no law on separating children from parents at the border, but rather a policy introduced recently by the Trump administration.

This is great. Why have I heard nothing from the Democrats or the media asserting this? Why aren't they drawing attention to the fact that if it's an Obama executive order, just refuse to implement it, and if it's a law the the Democrats crafted, the Republicans control the Presidency and both houses of Congress, repeal the law.

Because you’re apparently not following the media, I imagine. I’ve heard no less than five members of congress saying tha on the office TV today, and seen a dozen or more tweets to that effect. Shit, CNN in their actual reporting flat out called him a liar at least two days ago.

[Broomstick]

The nightly world news for ABC flat out used the word "liar" and "lie" three times that I counted. They very forcefully pointed out that this is Trump's policy and he can end it without Congress.

I am deeply ashamed of my nation tonight.

It's still a valid argument to say 'that's not true, and even if it was true, it wouldn't excuse what you were doing since you have control of the government can repeal Democrat laws.'

Just because it's not your preferred line of argument doesn't warrant supersized text and calling people authoritarian apologists.

You don't like my expression of anger and disgust? Fuck you.

AGAIN, NONE OF THIS IS "DEMOCRAT LAWS". STOP REPEATING OUTRIGHT LIES. THIS IS A TRUMP POLICY, IT IS HIS RESPONSIBILITY, HIS FAULT, HE STARTED IT AND HE CAN END IT - BUT HE DOESN'T WANT TO.

I will keep shouting until you get it. STOP repeating the lies. STOP doing the work of the humanoid scum in the administration. STOP deflecting blame from those responsible for these appalling acts: the Trump Administration.

YOU are now acting as an apologist for this fascist administration that is taking children away from their families and locking them up in chainlink cells, cramming them 20 at a time into a tent. There is proof that at least some of these parents have been deported back home while their children remain in the US. The whole mess is an abomination. It's a call back to interring the Japanese during WWII. It is a callback to Nazi camps separating men, women, and children when they arrived at work camps. It is a callback to stripping Native children from their families and never giving them back.

This is being done to punish those who dare to set foot across the border. It is done to punish the children. It is being done to get Trump his wall and his way. It is a CLEAR violation of human rights, it's both abusive and neglectful to children, and when the slimy bitch Secretary Nielson compared what is being done to these children to "summer camp" I literally almost threw up. MY summer camp did not have fences. MY summer camp did not lock me into cage with other kids. They are NOT summer camps, they are prison cells for children.

[The Romulan Republic]

Broomstick, I would sig that whole damn post if I could.

[Steve]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I got the feeling Crazedwraith wasn't saying they weren't lies, but that even if they're not lies, even if they're true, it still makes Trump look like an asshole for not repealing them, and citing those origins as a defense is hardly an effective argument.

Napoleon once said that one should never attribute to malice that which can be more easily attributed to incompetence. Trump's administration makes it impossible to tell the difference.

[Simon_Jester]

The nightly world news for ABC flat out used the word "liar" and "lie" three times that I counted. They very forcefully pointed out that this is Trump's policy and he can end it without Congress.

I am deeply ashamed of my nation tonight.

It's still a valid argument to say 'that's not true, and even if it was true, it wouldn't excuse what you were doing since you have control of the government can repeal Democrat laws.'

Just because it's not your preferred line of argument doesn't warrant supersized text and calling people authoritarian apologists.

You don't like my expression of anger and disgust? Fuck you.

AGAIN, NONE OF THIS IS "DEMOCRAT LAWS". STOP REPEATING OUTRIGHT LIES. THIS IS A TRUMP POLICY, IT IS HIS RESPONSIBILITY, HIS FAULT, HE STARTED IT AND HE CAN END IT - BUT HE DOESN'T WANT TO.

I will keep shouting until you get it. STOP repeating the lies. STOP doing the work of the humanoid scum in the administration. STOP deflecting blame from those responsible for these appalling acts: the Trump Administration.

YOU are now acting as an apologist for this fascist administration that is taking children away from their families and locking them up in chainlink cells, cramming them 20 at a time into a tent. There is proof that at least some of these parents have been deported back home while their children remain in the US. The whole mess is an abomination. It's a call back to interring the Japanese during WWII. It is a callback to Nazi camps separating men, women, and children when they arrived at work camps. It is a callback to stripping Native children from their families and never giving them back.

This is being done to punish those who dare to set foot across the border. It is done to punish the children. It is being done to get Trump his wall and his way. It is a CLEAR violation of human rights, it's both abusive and neglectful to children, and when the slimy bitch Secretary Nielson compared what is being done to these children to "summer camp" I literally almost threw up. MY summer camp did not have fences. MY summer camp did not lock me into cage with other kids. They are NOT summer camps, they are prison cells for children.

Just to be clear, are you advocating for abolishing arguments of the form "if X were true, then you could just do Y, so even if your lying lie that X is true wasn't a lie, it still wouldn't require you to do Z?"

Because that's what you're ALL CAPSing at people over.

[Broomstick]

The problem with "if X is true, then do Y" arguments in this case is that X is not true. At all. Period. But repeatedly expressing it in that manner can lead to it being perceived as true, or at least possible, which this administration will use to spread doubt and lies. "if x is true, then do Y" is irrelevant in this case. In this particular case, that form of argument is counter-productive.

[Broomstick]

I'd also like to add that they aren't just separating the children from the parents - they're also separating siblings. The boys and girls are being kept at different facilities. Also, we're ONLY see where the boys are being kept. Where are the girls? In addition, there are reports that care for toddlers and infants is being provided by the girl child prisoners instead of the guards/keepers.

There is SO much fucked up wrong here.

[mr friendly guy]

https://www.npr.org/2018/06/15/62025432 ... eparations

The breaking point for Davidson came, he says, when he was asked to tell two siblings, ages 6 and 10, that they couldn't hug each other. "They called me over the radio. And they wanted to translate to these kids that the rule of the shelter is that they are not allowed to hug," he says. "And these are kids that had just been separated from their mom — basically just huddling and hugging each other in a desperate attempt to remain together." Southwest Key says it has a clear policy that allows touching and hugging in certain circumstances.

Which oppressive country won't even allow siblings to hug each other? Oh wait, the land of the free.

[houser2112]

The problem with "if X is true, then do Y" arguments in this case is that X is not true. At all. Period. But repeatedly expressing it in that manner can lead to it being perceived as true, or at least possible, which this administration will use to spread doubt and lies. "if x is true, then do Y" is irrelevant in this case. In this particular case, that form of argument is counter-productive.

Wow, Broomstick, you were totally misreading me. I'm not a Trump apologist, far from it. According to other posters here, the media has been calling it a lie, and since making that post, I've read about the legislators being turned away at one of the camps. So I'm guilty of ignorance, of not listening hard enough. Mea culpa.

Maybe it needs to be said louder and more frequently that it is a lie. I won't argue that, but that doesn't mean we should stop at "you lie!". My point was to go a little further, to not only accuse them of lying about whose policy it is, but the fiction about how their hands are tied to do anything about it. To make them acknowledge that they are in practically total control of the government and have fuck-all to show for it except a very unpopular tax "reform" and a failed attempt to repeal a popular healthcare law.

Perhaps you're right that this argument is counter-productive. You know what else is counter-productive? Hysterically painting your allies with the "Trump apologist" brush when nothing could be further from the truth.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Wow, Broomstick, you were totally misreading me. I'm not a Trump apologist, far from it. According to other posters here, the media has been calling it a lie, and since making that post, I've read about the legislators being turned away at one of the camps. So I'm guilty of ignorance, of not listening hard enough. Mea culpa.

This is great. Why have I heard nothing from the Democrats or the media asserting this? Why aren't they drawing attention to the fact that if it's an Obama executive order, just refuse to implement it, and if it's a law the the Democrats crafted, the Republicans control the Presidency and both houses of Congress, repeal the law.

Weather you wish to admit it or not, you repeated a Lie that is so obviously and ridiculously a lie, the only people who do NOT Know it is a lie tend to be insulated Trump supporters. If your argument is suddenly "Whoops! I didn't know it was a lie!" then a little bit more genuine contrition is called for as it where. Even in your most recent post you are being some what disingenious about exactly what the "Facts" are.

[Crazedwraith]

Wow, Broomstick, you were totally misreading me. I'm not a Trump apologist, far from it. According to other posters here, the media has been calling it a lie, and since making that post, I've read about the legislators being turned away at one of the camps. So I'm guilty of ignorance, of not listening hard enough. Mea culpa.

This is great. Why have I heard nothing from the Democrats or the media asserting this? Why aren't they drawing attention to the fact that if it's an Obama executive order, just refuse to implement it, and if it's a law the the Democrats crafted, the Republicans control the Presidency and both houses of Congress, repeal the law.

Weather you wish to admit it or not, you repeated a Lie that is so obviously and ridiculously a lie, the only people who do NOT Know it is a lie tend to be insulated Trump supporters. If your argument is suddenly "Whoops! I didn't know it was a lie!" then a little bit more genuine contrition is called for as it where. Even in your most recent post you are being some what disingenious about exactly what the "Facts" are.

The key word there in your highlighted section is 'if' as everyone aside from you and Broomstick interpreted that to mean 'even if what you said was true it wouldn't excuse your actions'

He didn't repeat the lie or claim it as fact at all.

[houser2112]

This is great. Why have I heard nothing from the Democrats or the media asserting this? Why aren't they drawing attention to the fact that if it's an Obama executive order, just refuse to implement it, and if it's a law the the Democrats crafted, the Republicans control the Presidency and both houses of Congress, repeal the law.

Weather you wish to admit it or not, you repeated a Lie that is so obviously and ridiculously a lie, the only people who do NOT Know it is a lie tend to be insulated Trump supporters. If your argument is suddenly "Whoops! I didn't know it was a lie!" then a little bit more genuine contrition is called for as it where. Even in your most recent post you are being some what disingenious about exactly what the "Facts" are.

Oh, for fuck's sake! I was just engaging in rhetorical "let's pretend this obvious lie is true" to make a different argument. I didn't think I needed to use scare quotes around "fact" in your bolded portion of my quote, but I'll restate for you: I was not saying "the Democrats are responsible for this policy", but that "the Republicans have total control of the government, and can therefore choose to ignore or change the policy even if it WAS actually a Democrat policy". I'll try to be more direct in the future with my arguments.

[Vendetta]

Oh, for fuck's sake! I was just engaging in rhetorical "let's pretend this obvious lie is true" to make a different argument.

Yes.

But you're doing that in a climate of shamelessness and misrepresentation unprecedented in mainstream political discourse.

By acknowledging the lie even in those terms you shift the window of discussion away from openly and directly rebutting the lie itself, which is how Trump thrives. Because the lie isn't even being challenged, the lie lives on.

[Simon_Jester]

The problem with "if X is true, then do Y" arguments in this case is that X is not true. At all. Period. But repeatedly expressing it in that manner can lead to it being perceived as true, or at least possible, which this administration will use to spread doubt and lies. "if x is true, then do Y" is irrelevant in this case. In this particular case, that form of argument is counter-productive.

So basically, your argument is "do not advance complex explanations that involve 'suppose this counterfactual were true,' because people who don't understand what they're reading might get confused and think you're confessing to the counterfactual (that is, untrue) statement.

Okay.

The thing is, that's a pretty high-level abstract meta argument about how best to debate and advance one's worldview. It is not, to put it mildly, the sort of thing that is best advanced while screaming at someone about what a terrible person they are.

So while maybe you're right that people should stop using complicated arguments like "well even if X were true, it wouldn't justify doing Y" due to the fear of this getting misunderstood as an admission of guilt... I think you still kind of bit Houser's head off unfairly there.

Oh, for fuck's sake! I was just engaging in rhetorical "let's pretend this obvious lie is true" to make a different argument.

Yes.

But you're doing that in a climate of shamelessness and misrepresentation unprecedented in mainstream political discourse.

By acknowledging the lie even in those terms you shift the window of discussion away from openly and directly rebutting the lie itself, which is how Trump thrives. Because the lie isn't even being challenged, the lie lives on.

Except the lie IS being challenged, it's just being challenged in a way that people who are eagerly hunting for the next Trump apologist to pounce upon can misunderstand if they commit a bad enough case of reading comprehension fail.

Moreover, Houser said what he said HERE. Would you characterize this forum as "a climate of shamelessness and misrepresentation unprecedented in mainstream political discourse?" I mean, right now that sounds more like Houser's line.

[TheFeniX]

I'm guilty of the "using the lie against them" rhetoric here but also because I've already had to go at this with my brother. He took the "Obama executive order" lie hook, line, and sinker.

"Democrats aren't holding up shit. That's a bald face lie from the Trumpster and his cronies. So Trump's either a liar, a coward, or both."
"Not what I've read."
"Well, let's just say the Facebook conservative shilling shit you've found is actually true and Trump is being waylaid by Obummer and his cronies. Still makes Trump a liar and a coward because he's talked big about not letting politics get in the way and he's fully capable, as he's already done, to just ignore that executive order."

Not that conservatives care about consistency, but believing the lie IMO makes Trump look worse because they constantly harangue Democrats as weak, ineffectual, and holding up "non-Americans" over "True red-blooded Patriots" and any laws they DID pass should be repealed or even ignored. And yet Trump is stumped by these supposed laws and executive orders and so IS FORCED to put children through abuse?

So Trump, who falsely claims to follow a sort of "there's the law and then there's JUSTICE" ideology, or at least that's what many of his more ardent supporters have posited, is now being stalled by the legal actions of the minority party? It's biting him in the ass (and has been even before this) because when you constantly talk big about smashing your way through red tape, then get so wrapped up in it you're crying on Twitter, people notice that shit.

Like I said, lies or no lies only the most ardent conservative is going to give Trump and Co. any credit here. In fact, "Conservative" isn't really the right term because multiple religious groups (and not just your more liberal denominations) and leaders have come out strongly against Trump on this. And they aren't going to care about "B-b-b-b-b-b-but the DEMOCRATS" when children are suffering. Because Trump promised to DO THINGS. The RIGHT THINGS.

Fuck man, SOUTHERN BAPTISTS are against Trump on this. The guys who are like "dancing with a woman who isn't your wife should be illegal." They seem especially upset over the Sessions scripture quoting.

SIDENOTE: I don't know if the rage will hold and/or be remembered. But mid-terms are coming up soon and this is the kind of shit-storm that can really fuck things up for Republicans. Distancing cannot begin soon enough because using children for blackmail and locking them in cages? Trump did not do the math (no surprise there) when it came to "Americans don't like Illegals" > "Let's lock up children of illegals."

This shit could (and fucking SHOULD) dominate airwaves up until November. This is a terrible (or great) time to have this come up because it's unlikely, if they even attempted to start cleaning this whole mess up, this will be over in 5 months. Or even if it magically was, the memory is going to take longer than that to fade.

You guys wanted your watershed moment that we all knew Trump would bring up and do his best to fuck the Republican party? I'm going to have to say this is it, or at least the best shot for it. And all it took was thousands of children being subjected to criminal levels of abuse and other horrors likely happening that I just don't want to fucking think about.

Because 'Murrica. I'm feeling a little grim at the moment... for some reason. So have a good song that TOTALLY ISN'T disturbingly ironic given the situation. I would play "Born in the U.S.A." But that would bring the irony into some kind of perpetual motion black hole.

[The Romulan Republic]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I got the feeling Crazedwraith wasn't saying they weren't lies, but that even if they're not lies, even if they're true, it still makes Trump look like an asshole for not repealing them, and citing those origins as a defense is hardly an effective argument.

Napoleon once said that one should never attribute to malice that which can be more easily attributed to incompetence. Trump's administration makes it impossible to tell the difference.

Why can't it be both?

[Dominus Atheos]

Becuase NEITHER of those two is true.

It is NOT an Obama executive order

It is NOT a law at all, and it was not crafted by either party in prior administrations.

IT IS A TRUMP ADMINISTRATION CHOICE TO SEPARATE CHILDREN FROM THEIR FAMILIES. THIS IS SOLELY ON TRUMP AND HIS ADMINISTRATION. HE AND HIS GET THE BLAME.

Now, you piece of authoritarian apologist shit, take your half-drunk Kool-Aid and fuck off.

OK, see, but... there actually is a specific law that Trump thinks he is referring to. I wasn't going to mention it because up until wednesday morning it didn't matter at all, but over the next few days it's really going to matter and people are declaring victory and going home and people really need to not do that yet.

Background: If a family crosses the border illegally (which is actually a misdemeanor) and are caught/turn themselves in, there are 3 possible options: Jail all of them on the misdemeanor charge (including the children), jail some of them, (just the adults), or jail none of them (and make them promise to come back into custody to be deported later). Obama and every previous president took option 3, which Trump called "catch and release". Trump tried to take option 2, and so that required him to send the children of the jailed adults into what should totally be called "baby internment camps", which are still technically nicer than jails. I'm not trying to defend them, but that is important because...

Under several laws and court decisions, it's illegal to jail immigrant children for longer then 20 days. That is the "democrat-passed" law (it's reiterated in several laws, all of which were bipartisan) that trump wants changed: he wants to throw children in jail indefinitely (with their families, like a family jail). And most importantly, that is what the new executive order does. The good news is that the EO will probably have an injunction put against it by the end of this week. The bad news is that everyone on the left is trying to declare victory and go home and you really shouldn't be doing that yet.

There is still totally still going to be family separation next week, but now trump is going to have a new talking point that he tried to fix it and the courts forced him to continue the practice. Noooo... he's trying to jail children and the courts are going to stop him, thank god. But so many people on the left are completely unprepared, and seeing people who really need to be prepared to keep up the fight instead patting themselves on the back and acting like we won and can stop now is driving me crazy!!!

Sorry, had to get that off my chest. Did I mention it's driving me crazy?

[Broomstick]

Don't know about your part of the country, but here in the Chicago area the media has been pointing out/discussing the 20-day limit on incarcerating kids with their families and telling everyone separations will start again within 3 weeks.

Also pointing out that some of these kids likely will never see their parents again, the relocation of girls to New York City, and other things, like people attempting to come through ports of entry to apply for asylum and either being turned away or arrested after following the process to enter legally - the Trump administration is treating applying for asylum as a crime. So I think the media sees a story here and will try to keep it going, but you are correct. Now is not the time for complacency.