Solauren wrote: ↑
Titan Uranus wrote: ↑
Solauren wrote: ↑
The island represents a MASSIVE biological threat to the planet. There are extremely dangerous Alpha Predators on it. As in 'nothing alive on earth can stop some of them without modern weapons'.
Fall back, and recommend a tactical nuclear strike to contain the bio-threat.
What? The predators are no threat at all. They haven’t been since the Victorian era even for a small hunting party, and can be killed by normal big-game rifles without issue.
Really? Got hard proof of that? When's the last time you bagged a dinosaur?
We have no idea on how hand-held weapons will perform when it comes to dealing with a dinosaur. They are from a radically different environment than ours. Same gravity, sure. Atmospheric conditions were very different. We already know dinosaurs had much sense bones then us (at least, I believe they did). It stands to reason stronger tissues as well.
I'm not saying they're going to be bullet proof, but they could be very bullet resistant.
Not to mention that some species were rather heavily armored. (Ankylosaurioids and Ceratopians come to mind).
From what we know of dinosaur soft tissue, at least for ones like t.rex and raptors, it isn't any denser than that of, say, a moa or ostrich of the same size, and dinosaurs like apatosaurus are rather built like elephants in many regards. As far as tissue and bone density, there's no reason to believe dinosaurs were any tougher than modern, living animals on a similar scale.
A modern-ish hunting rifle should be able to dispatch smaller dinosaurs, and with proper shot placement could even take larger examples; rifles in .303 British, a caliber somewhat weaker than the American standard .30-06 for hunting, can and has been used to take elephants with a single shot. Presumably, dinosaurs will also have a vulnerable point such as the eye, carotid artery, sinus, etc. that allows for a military or hunting rifle to take one down with proper shot placement, allowing a bullet to penetrate the brain or major blood vessel; note that this does not mean instant
death or even incapacitation, just eventual
death. More powerful calibers, like .300 Winchester Magnum, .45-70 (in its modern incarnation), or .375 Holland and Holland, are also very common hunting rounds, and of course there are the dedicated big game calibers like .416 Rigby, .577 Tyrannosaurus, .600 Nitro Express, and .700 Nitro Express. Long range sniper rifles and anti-material rifles, such as .50 BMG (available in single-shot, bolt-action repeater, and semi-auto) are also available, and looking at the current market online, the most readily available ammunition in .50 BMG is military surplus Armor-Piercing Incendiary.
.600 Nitro Express has been the standard for large caliber elephant guns since around 1900. While lighter caliber rifles are used to get fatal shots on an elephant (targeting the heart, lungs, or brain), the .600 is typically used as an emergency backup weapon, not the primary weapon. When in dense foliage and no clear shot to a vital organ is available, the .600 is used to stop a charging, pissed off elephant in its tracks and has enough force to knock an elephant unconscious with a shot to the head that doesn't actually penetrate the skull, and can punch through the elephant's chest, muscle, bones, etc. and stop a charge by smashing its bones and muscles to pulp.
The cartridge fires a .620 in (15.7 mm) diameter, 900 gr (58 g) projectile with three powder loadings, the standard being 100 gr (6.5 g) of cordite at a muzzle velocity of 1,850 ft/s (560 m/s), whilst there is also a 110 gr (7.1 g) loading which generates muzzle velocity of 1,950 ft/s (590 m/s) and a 120 gr (7.8 g) loading which generates a muzzle velocity of 2,050 ft/s (620 m/s). The 100gr load produces 6,840 ft⋅lbf (9,270 J) of muzzle energy, the 110 gr load produces 7,600 ft⋅lbf (10,300 J) of muzzle energy, and the 120 gr load produces 8,400 ft⋅lbf (11,400 J) of muzzle energy.
Because of the recoil forces generated by this cartridge, rifles chambered in it typically weigh up to 16 lb (7.3 kg).
n 1914 and early 1915, German snipers were engaging British Army positions with impunity from behind steel plates that were impervious to .303 British ball ammunition. In an attempt to counter this threat, the British War Office purchased sixty-two large bore sporting rifles from British rifle makers, including four .600 Nitro Express rifles, which were issued to Regiments. These large bore rifles proved very effective against the steel plates used by the Germans, in his book Sniping in France 1914-18 MAJ H. Hesketh-Prichard, DSO, MC stated they "pierced them like butter."
Stuart Cloete, sniping officer for the King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, stated "We used a heavy sporting rifle - a .600 Express. These had been donated to the army by big game hunters and when we hit a plate we stove it right in. But it had to be fired standing or from a kneeling position to take up the recoil. The first man who fired it from the prone position had his collar bone broken."
Prior to the 20th century and modern smokeless powders, many African big game hunters of the 18th and 19th century (approximately 1750 to 1880) used a "stopping rifle" for much the same purpose: a massive, heavy rifle (or smoothbore in some cases) used to stop a charging elephant/rhino/hippo at close range when a precision shot to a vital organ wasn't possible. Stopping rifles came in 10, 8, 6, 4, and rarely 2 bore. 8-bore was very common, while 4-bore was the standard for the big "oh shit kill it quick" guns.
Frederick Courtney Selous, for whom the Rhodesian Selous Scouts were named, posing with a 4-bore rifle
Using Courtney's 4-bore rifle as a standard for stopping rifles, we have the following information:
The name, derived from an old English practice of bore measurements in gun-making, that refers to a nominally 4-gauge bore, that is, a bore diameter that would accommodate a pure lead round ball of approximately 1750 grains (1750 gr.) and approximately 1-inch (25 mm) calibre (more precisely, 1.053-inch (26.7 mm), that would precisely fit a pure round lead ball weighing a quarter of a pound. In practice the bore diameter varied greatly as, in muzzle loader days, shotgun gauges were custom made and often differed from the actual bore measurements. Commonly, 4 bores were closer to 0.935–0.955 inch calibre (closer to 5 gauge), pertaining to a 1400 grain alloyed lead ball.
The first 4 bores were probably single barrel muzzleloaders converted from British fowling pieces that were, in essence, slug guns. Loads (bullet weights and gunpowder loads) varied greatly. As the weight and strength increased, gunpowder loads went from 8 drams (0.5 oz) to a full ounce (16 drams), or more, of powder. The advent of rifling after about 1860 allowed longer conical projectiles to be stabilised, and, aside from accuracy, these provided even greater weight and penetration, with some hardened lead or steel bullets weighing as much as 2000 grains. The 4 bore was also occasionally used for shooting exploding projectiles. Although 4-bore firearms were commonly referred to as "rifles", smoothbore version of the weapon were actually more popular, and continued to be so throughout the era of four bore usage. Since dangerous game was shot at ranges under 40 yards, a smoothbore was sufficiently accurate, while at the same time providing higher velocities and lower recoil, and needing less cleaning. The prominent British gunmaker W. W. Greener even recommended against rifled firearms above the bore size of eight, with the four bores that he continued producing from then on being exclusively smoothbores. The smoothbore also, at least until the advent of breechloading, could be reloaded faster.
With the advent of breechloading cases in the late 19th century the 4 bore came into its current guise, that being the well-known 4–4.5" brass case.
The cartridge brass case was around 4 inches (100 mm) long, and contained three types of loads: light at 12 drams, 14 drams at regular, and 16 drams of powder at heavy load. (Note: 1 dram = 27.34375 grains in the avoirdupois system, since 256 drams = 7000 grains = 1 pound of powder. Shotgun shells are still rated in terms of the same archaic dram measurements, relative to their equivalence of smokeless powder load to a black-powder load weighed in drams.) John "Pondoro" Taylor mentioned in his book African Rifles and Cartridges that the 12 drams (328 gr., 3/4 oz.) charge would propel the projectile at around 1,330 ft/s (410 m/s). A double barreled rifle that would fire such a calibre would weigh around 22–24 lb bare, while the single-barreled version would be around 17–18 lb.
This caliber was used heavily by the European hunters, notably so the British and Dutch Boers, in tropical climates of Africa and India. A single barreled smoothbore percussion cap musket of between four and six gauge called a "roah" was the standard weapon among Boer hunters, until the common acceptance of breechloading rifles among their ranks in the 1850s. Many of the earliest British hunters adopted this practice from the Boers, with Selous being the best known among them.
Meant to be used with black powder due to its size, it was unpopular due to the problem of thick smoke and a powerful recoil. Notable hunters that used the rifles included Sir Samuel White Baker and Frederick Selous, who used it consistently in his career as an ivory hunter of African elephants between 1874 and 1876 until the advent of the lighter, more accurate and less cumbersome Nitro Express calibers and cordite propellant. In the mid-1870s, Selous favoured a four bore black powder muzzleloader for killing elephant, a 13 lb (5.9 kg) short barreled musket firing a quarter pound bullet with as much as 20 drams (540 grains) of black powder. He could wield it even from horseback. Between 1874 and 1876, he slew exactly seventy-eight elephants with that gun, but eventually there was a double loading incident together with other recoil problems. He finally gave it up, due to it "upsetting my nerve".
Although a weapon of immense power, the four bore was far less effective than its Nitro Express successors because of the low penetration of its projectiles and its immense recoil. The huge lead slugs fired by the gun were sometimes capable of stunning a charging African elephant to stop it on its tracks, or turn its charge (causing it to change direction to avoid the hunter) but it was generally unable to kill the creature outright with a frontal brain shot. Chest and broadside shots were effective killers, as was the side shot on brain where the skull is thinner on elephant, however once again this did not help for instantly stopping an enraged elephant charging the hunter. On the other dangerous game species such as the Indian elephant, buffalo species and Rhino it was considered an excellent killer.
Modern Russian KS-23 shotgun is roughly 4 gauge.
Similar guns were used in the 1700's with flintlock mechanisms:
Prior to the 18th century, African big game hunting wasn't really a thing with Europeans, but they still had firearms that could deal with large beasts. Swivel guns were often mounted on small boats for defense against the enemy on shore (firing canister shot, effectively turning it into a large shotgun) or other boats (either canister shot for 'sweeping the deck' of sailors or shredding the sails, or solid balls for punching through the hull to sink it), and were also mounted on the walls of fortifications as something between a musket and a cannon for engaging attackers.
Wall guns are a similar concept and were in use from the 1500's to mid-1800's, and were basically oversized muskets intended for engaging attacking troops at long range and for punching through shields, armor, mobile fortifications, and siege engines.
A wall gun's barrel could be over 4.5 feet (140 cm) in length with a bore of at least 1 inch (2.5 cm). This made them more accurate than the standard flintlock or matchlock musket. George Washington acquired several wall guns during the American War of Independence; tests showed that they were capable of hitting a sheet of common writing paper at 600 yards (550 m). Wall guns were part of the standard equipment of some artillery pieces at that time.
During the Napoleonic Wars many of these guns were cut down and turned into blunderbusses. They fired lead shot and were used by naval boarding parties and coachmen as protection from highwaymen.
A breech-loading wall gun was issued to the French army in 1819 for the defense of towns. Improved caplock versions were introduced in 1831 and 1842, as were muzzleloading versions. Bolt action wall guns firing metallic cartridges were used in India and China in the late 19th century.
So as early as the 1500's, we had man-portable firearms capable of dispatching dinosaurs. How effective they would be would, naturally, vary depending on the firearm, ammunition/load, shot placement, and the dinosaur in question, but we most certainly had weaponry capable of dealing with dinosaurs in the Victorian era and prior. Even standard muskets (a 1770's era musket having pretty much the same range and firepower as a modern 12-gauge shotgun firing a rifled slug) could (eventually) kill a dinosaur, and if fired in volleys would likely deter even a big predator like t.rex from attacking. You also need to remember that muskets/rifles doubled as spears all the way up to WW2, with bayonets; I wouldn't want to be the poor bastard fending off a utahraptor or t.rex with a bayonet, but it gives you some
means of defense even with an unloaded weapon.
Shit, a squad of pikemen could probably deter something like allosaurus from attacking, keeping it at bay while it tried to avoid the wall of sharp sticks jabbing at it.
So in conclusion, we've had the firepower to deal with dinosaurs for several centuries now, and firearms readily available to civilians can handle creatures up to and including t.rex. Bigger beasts like diplodocus and armored dinosaurs like ankylosaurus are up in the air.
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