Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

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Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

One of two people said to be in a critical condition after they were exposed to an unknown substance is a Russian national convicted of spying for Britain, ITV News understands.
A man, believed to be Sergei Skripal, and a woman are being treated at hospital after police were called to The Maltings in Salisbury, Wiltshire, on Sunday shortly after 4pm.
He and a 33-year-old woman, who are believed to know each other, "were found unconscious on a bench", Wiltshire Police said.
Link. The fact that "unknown substance" is the best they can come up with means they haven't got a fucking clue what they're dealing with (yet). Speculation so far is that it was an assassination attempt, though it's too soon to say.
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Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by The Romulan Republic »

That this is in Britain makes me wonder if he was one of Steel's sources for the Trump/Russia dossier, and if this is retaliation. Though I acknowledge that that is, at present, purely speculative.
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Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by Isolder74 »

I wonder if an umbrella injected Minibead was involved this time too.
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Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by Zaune »

Well, at least it's not radioactive sushi this time.
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Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

The incident has been handed over to the counter-terrorism division, though they've made clear they're not calling it a terrorist attack yet. Of course the Russians are denying any wrongdoing. It's been pointed out that it's unusual that he's been targeted now since he's likely to have done all the damage he's going to, unless he's still in contact with intelligence services.
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Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by Crazedwraith »

Unknown substances is now 'nerve agent'

and one of the police officers first on the scene has also come down with problems due to it.
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Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by White Haven »

Because Sources Are Hard wrote:A nerve agent was used to try to murder a former Russian spy and his daughter, police have said.

Sergei and Yulia Skripal were found unconscious in Salisbury on Sunday afternoon and remain critically ill.

A police officer who was the first to attend the scene is now in a serious condition in hospital, Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley said.

Nerve agents are highly toxic chemicals that stop the nervous system working and shut down bodily functions.

They normally enter the body through the mouth or nose, but can also be absorbed through the eyes or skin.

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Mr Rowley, head of Counter Terrorism Policing, said government scientists had identified the agent used, but would not make that information public at this stage.

"This is being treated as a major incident involving attempted murder, by administration of a nerve agent," he said.

"Having established that a nerve agent is the cause of the symptoms... I can also confirm that we believe that the two people who became unwell were targeted specifically."

He said there was no evidence of a widespread health risk to the public.

Two other police officers who attended the scene were treated in hospital for minor symptoms, before they were given the all clear. It is understood their symptoms included itchy eyes and wheezing.

Analysis
By Richard Galpin, BBC News correspondent - formerly based in Moscow

The announcement by the police that Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia are the victims of an attack in which a nerve agent was used makes the parallel with the poisoning of former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko in London in 2006 even stronger.

Like the radioactive polonium used to kill Litvinenko, a nerve agent is not normally something criminal gangs or terrorist groups can make.

Instead, it is usually manufactured by specialist laboratories under the control of governments - and that inevitably means suspicion will now be very much focused on Russia.

Not only does it have a track record of using poisons to assassinate its enemies, there is also a motive in the case of Sergei Skripal.

As a military intelligence officer in Russia, he betrayed his country by providing information to MI6, reportedly revealing the identities of Russian agents in Europe. And Russian President Vladimir Putin has in the past indicated that traitors deserve to die.

Although the question remains, why would Mr Skripal be attacked now when he has been living in Britain for eight years and came here originally as part of a spy swap?

Mr Skripal, 66, and his 33-year-old daughter were found slumped on a bench outside the Maltings shopping centre.

Police want to speak to anyone who was in the city centre on Sunday afternoon.

They are particularly keen to hear from people who ate at Zizzi or drank in The Bishop's Mill pub between 13:00 and 16:00 GMT.

Both of those locations remain closed to the public.

There is also a cordon in place outside Mr Skripal's Salisbury home. A yellow forensic tent has been erected and police have been seen carrying equipment into the building.

Mr Rowley said hundreds of detectives, forensic specialists, analysts and intelligence officers were working round the clock on the case.

The investigation in Salisbury may take several more days, he added.

Prof Malcolm Sperrin, fellow of the Institute of Physics and Engineering in Medicine, said: "Symptoms of exposure to nerve agents may include respiratory arrest, heart failure, twitching or spasms - anything where the nerve control is degraded.

"Nerve agents can cause death, but not necessarily at low-level exposure or with a minor dose."

Alastair Hay, emeritus professor of environmental toxicology at the University of Leeds, added: "These are very difficult and dangerous chemicals to make."

A public inquiry concluded the killing of the Russian dissident Alexander Litvinenko in 2006 was probably carried out with the approval of President Putin.

On Tuesday, Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson told MPs the UK would respond "robustly" to any evidence of Russian "state responsibility" in the Skripal case.

Russia has insisted it has "no information" about what could have led to the incident, but is open to co-operating with British police if requested.

Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said foreign media had used the incident as part of an anti-Russian campaign.

"It's a traditional campaign. The tradition is to make things up. We can only see it as a provocation," she said.
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Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Was reading about this on another site, and my attention was drawn to a point which I hadn't previously considered, but is rather obvious in hindsight:

A nerve agent is a chemical weapon, which could (and evidently did) harm anyone who came into contact with it. It could, in fact, be considered a WMD.

So, if Russia was behind this, then does that not technically mean that a nuclear-armed country just deployed a WMD on the soil of another nuclear-armed power?

Now, I don't imagine that Britain will actually start WWIII over this, even if its tied to the government of Russia. But I can't think of any form or retaliation short of actual war that would be an overreaction.
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Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by Zaune »

If they'd let a canister of it off in a crowded shopping mall to take him out then I could see it, but at the moment this seems not to have been a WMD in the literal sense; three people critically ill in hospital does not constitute mass destruction.

And considering the only concrete proposal for a retaliatiory measure I've heard to date involves boycotting the World Cup, I don't think the current government is all that bothered.
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Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Zaune wrote: 2018-03-07 05:57pm If they'd let a canister of it off in a crowded shopping mall to take him out then I could see it, but at the moment this seems not to have been a WMD in the literal sense; three people critically ill in hospital does not constitute mass destruction.
Well, no, it wasn't like they were trying to disseminate it was widely as possible.

But even minor or indirect contact can be dangerous, as the police officer in the hospital shows. It could easily have harmed other bystanders. It is, at the very least, callous indifference towards the possibility of harming British civilians. And the use of chemical weapons by one nuclear power on the soil of another is something that needs to be decisively discouraged.
And considering the only concrete proposal for a retaliatiory measure I've heard to date involves boycotting the World Cup, I don't think the current government is all that bothered.
Well, I'd say that that's (yet another) damning indictment of the British government, and a failure to protect its citizens.

Frankly, if I was PM, I'd be inclined to recall my ambassadors from Russia, eject the Russian diplomats, and bar entry by any employee of the Russian government into the UK, as well as add additional financial sanctions.
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Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by Crazedwraith »

Generally I dont think Governments should be doing that kind of massively impactful action based on whst at the moment is purely circumstantual evidence.
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Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

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Crazedwraith wrote: 2018-03-07 06:15pm Generally I dont think Governments should be doing that kind of massively impactful action based on whst at the moment is purely circumstantual evidence.
Well, I did previously say "if Russia was behind this". Sorry if that wasn't sufficiently clear.

That said, Russia is the obvious suspect, given the identity of the targets, the historical precedent, and the reported difficulty in acquiring/manufacturing nerve agents.

What action would you feel is appropriate if Russia's government is confirmed to be behind this?
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Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by Zaune »

On the plus side, at least this approach means we won't have to spend several weeks waiting to find out how the England team are going to crash and burn embarrassingly this time.

But more seriously, I don't see how we can afford to threaten sanctions against Russia given how thoroughly we're burning our bridges with Europe and the US is all but demanding that we become an overseas territory.
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Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

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Zaune wrote: 2018-03-07 06:22pm On the plus side, at least this approach means we won't have to spend several weeks waiting to find out how the England team are going to crash and burn embarrassingly this time.

But more seriously, I don't see how we can afford to threaten sanctions against Russia given how thoroughly we're burning our bridges with Europe and the US is all but demanding that we become an overseas territory.
The UK is between a rock and a hard place, I guess- which is largely the fault of the Conservatives for enabling the Brexit madness (note: Nigel Farrage, one of the main people behind Brexit, has ties with a number of individuals involved in the Russian collusion investigation, so it may very well be that alienating the UK from Europe and limiting its options vs. Russia was part of the purpose behind Brexit).

That said, in my non-expert opinion, no government can afford to allow the use of chemical weapons by a foreign power on its soil to slide unchallenged.
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Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by Crazedwraith »

They also cant let their population to starve and freeze to death if Russia cuts energy supplies to us. (Nb: I'm not sure how depedent we are on russian energy atm and how much we are on french and chinese nuclear companies)

But to answer your question if Russia were proven beyond all reasonable doubt to be behind shit should kick off. As in summon their Ambassador for an explanation, sanctions up the wazoo and demand they give up whoever ordered it for trial.

I just dont think it will ever be proved strongly enough for them to take any significant action.
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Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

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The Romulan Republic wrote: 2018-03-07 06:04pm
Zaune wrote: 2018-03-07 05:57pm If they'd let a canister of it off in a crowded shopping mall to take him out then I could see it, but at the moment this seems not to have been a WMD in the literal sense; three people critically ill in hospital does not constitute mass destruction.
Well, no, it wasn't like they were trying to disseminate it was widely as possible.

But even minor or indirect contact can be dangerous, as the police officer in the hospital shows. It could easily have harmed other bystanders. It is, at the very least, callous indifference towards the possibility of harming British civilians. And the use of chemical weapons by one nuclear power on the soil of another is something that needs to be decisively discouraged.
This isn’t the first time the Russians have used novel means of assassination inside of Britain. And referring to this as using “weapons of mass destruction” is about as intellectually honest as saying that killing that guy with polonium was “using atomic weapons”.

What would be interesting is if the nerve agent was the same that was received by that DC marine base last week. But I suspect the public wouldn’t learn about that until well after my death by natural causes, were that the case.
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Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by The Romulan Republic »

FireNexus wrote: 2018-03-07 08:23pm
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2018-03-07 06:04pm
Zaune wrote: 2018-03-07 05:57pm If they'd let a canister of it off in a crowded shopping mall to take him out then I could see it, but at the moment this seems not to have been a WMD in the literal sense; three people critically ill in hospital does not constitute mass destruction.
Well, no, it wasn't like they were trying to disseminate it was widely as possible.

But even minor or indirect contact can be dangerous, as the police officer in the hospital shows. It could easily have harmed other bystanders. It is, at the very least, callous indifference towards the possibility of harming British civilians. And the use of chemical weapons by one nuclear power on the soil of another is something that needs to be decisively discouraged.
This isn’t the first time the Russians have used novel means of assassination inside of Britain. And referring to this as using “weapons of mass destruction” is about as intellectually honest as saying that killing that guy with polonium was “using atomic weapons”.
Technically, chemical weapons are considered WMDs, yes? And it is only by luck that it did not harm more bystanders.

But yeah, its not as though Russia fired a rocket full of Sarin into the middle of town or something. Obviously.
What would be interesting is if the nerve agent was the same that was received by that DC marine base last week. But I suspect the public wouldn’t learn about that until well after my death by natural causes, were that the case.
I hadn't heard that story? Link?
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Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

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The Romulan Republic wrote: 2018-03-07 08:27pmTechnically, chemical weapons are considered WMDs, yes? And it is only by luck that it did not harm more bystanders.
Technically, who gives a shit? Technically a bullet is a bomb. Off target effects do not make something a WMD attack. WMD as a definition is as much about use as makeup. The fact that there is every appearance of an attempt to minimize off-target effects (though a partially-failed effort, depending how sick the cop got) makes it not a WMD attack by definition. It’s a poisoning using a nerve agent.

I hadn't heard that story? Link?
https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... -myer.html

Military has been hush-hush about it ever since. But based on how it was delivered and who got sick, it was a nerve agent. They won’t even say who the letter was addressed to, so it was probably some kind of targeted assassination attempt.
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Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

TRR, I don't recall you making similar war claims arguments a year or so ago over the assassination of Kim Jong Un's half-brother using a similar nerve agent. As Nexus said, this was simply an assassination attempt using one particular type of poison. It is worth noting that there are many other poisons that can also present danger to first responders if they become accidentally exposed.
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Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

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Some chemical weapons would be hard to make into WMDs, for example ricin, which was used in a famous assassination of a Bulgarian dissident by KGB agents, interesting enough also in the UK. Ricin denatures in air so it can only be useful if it's injected

The point is, just because it's a chemical weapons it doesn't follow it's a WMD, especially when it's in such a targeted manner to minimise other casualties.
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Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

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Ziggy Stardust wrote: 2018-03-08 12:03am TRR, I don't recall you making similar war claims arguments a year or so ago over the assassination of Kim Jong Un's half-brother using a similar nerve agent. As Nexus said, this was simply an assassination attempt using one particular type of poison. It is worth noting that there are many other poisons that can also present danger to first responders if they become accidentally exposed.
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Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Ziggy Stardust wrote: 2018-03-08 12:03am TRR, I don't recall you making similar war claims arguments a year or so ago over the assassination of Kim Jong Un's half-brother using a similar nerve agent.
If you are suggesting that I am advocating war with Russia, you either have not read my posts or are being dishonest.

And yes, I think Kim Jong Un's attack should be treated with equal severity. Its just... there's not that much we can do to ostracize NK that we haven't already done, short of war. Which, as I said, is not what I am proposing.
As Nexus said, this was simply an assassination attempt using one particular type of poison. It is worth noting that there are many other poisons that can also present danger to first responders if they become accidentally exposed.
I think you're downplaying both the danger presented by nerve agents and the stigma that surrounds their use.
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Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2018-03-08 01:05pm If you are suggesting that I am advocating war with Russia, you either have not read my posts or are being dishonest.
TRR, are you literally out of your mind? Nothing I said was even remotely coming close to suggesting that. It amazes me that you would jump to such a bizarre, hyperbolic accusation. I'm not even one of the posters on here that has a history of arguing with or trolling you, so I don't see any reason why you would be so paranoid and venomous about my post right out of the gate. Seriously, dude ... chill out. Respond to my posts on their face, instead of conjuring up a complicated web of insinuations thrice removed from the content of my post and shrieking at me for lying about something. I half expected you to end that post talking about Pepe Silvia .
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2018-03-08 01:05pm And yes, I think Kim Jong Un's attack should be treated with equal severity. Its just... there's not that much we can do to ostracize NK that we haven't already done, short of war. Which, as I said, is not what I am proposing.
You're skirting the point a little, here. At the time of the Kim Jong-nam assassination, you did not (so far as I can tell searching the forums, so please correct me if I'm wrong) equate it with a war crime or the use of a WMD. This attack, from what we know if it so far, was almost identical to that attack (though apparently pulled off less incompetently by the actual assassins, who were rather bumbling in the Kim Jong-nam case). Which would lead me to believe you think this attack is somehow categorically different from the other, or that you have changed your mind on such issues in the past year (in which case I would ask you to explain why). I'm asking you to explain what appear without further detail/qualification on your part to be a hypocrisy; note that this is in no way, shape, or form implying that you are advocating war with Russia, and I am still struggling to follow the string of leaps and assumptions you would have to make to extend my statements in that direction.

(Note, too, that I am pointing out that we have an existing precedent for crimes of this sort NOT being legally, politically, or popularly perceived as being WMD attacks. You could go back even further and see that the nerve agent attack on a Tokyo subway in in 1995 that killed 12 people also wasn't considered a WMD attack, despite being an act of terror on a grander scale than this).
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2018-03-08 01:05pm I think you're downplaying both the danger presented by nerve agents and the stigma that surrounds their use.
No, I'm pointing out that the "contagiousness" of a poison isn't in and of itself a criterion for labeling something a WMD. You do realize chemical weapons aren't just putting a vial of poison in a room and waiting for the fumes to spread out and kill everyone? They require infrastructure and deployment systems on a rather large scale; hell, the Tokyo subway attack only killed 12 people in part because they lacked this infrastructure (you would expect it to kill far more, given the richness of the target for that sort of attack ... the Tokyo subway is massively crowded and especially in the mid 1990s wouldn't have had terribly sophisticated ventilation systems).
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Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Ziggy Stardust wrote: 2018-03-08 05:50pm
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2018-03-08 01:05pm If you are suggesting that I am advocating war with Russia, you either have not read my posts or are being dishonest.
TRR, are you literally out of your mind? Nothing I said was even remotely coming close to suggesting that. It amazes me that you would jump to such a bizarre, hyperbolic accusation. I'm not even one of the posters on here that has a history of arguing with or trolling you, so I don't see any reason why you would be so paranoid and venomous about my post right out of the gate. Seriously, dude ... chill out. Respond to my posts on their face, instead of conjuring up a complicated web of insinuations thrice removed from the content of my post and shrieking at me for lying about something. I half expected you to end that post talking about Pepe Silvia .
I was responding to this:
I don't recall you making similar war claims arguments a year or so ago...
Emphasis mine.

Apologies if I misread you- I wasn't quite sure what your point was here, because I wasn't discussing war with Russia as a possibility in any serious way. In fact, I explicitly said that I did not think that this would (or should) lead to war (even though it should really go without saying), because I expected that if I raised this point someone would accuse me of fear-mongering about WWIII.

And if I have a bit of a hair-trigger on this point, its partly because certain people (not you, I'll acknowledge) have made a habit out of trying to paint me as "Russophobic" or "McCarthyist" or whatever, because of my antagonism towards the Russian government (by which standard, I would also hate Americans, despite being one, but I digress).

But again, apologies for any misunderstanding.
You're skirting the point a little, here. At the time of the Kim Jong-nam assassination, you did not (so far as I can tell searching the forums, so please correct me if I'm wrong) equate it with a war crime or the use of a WMD. This attack, from what we know if it so far, was almost identical to that attack (though apparently pulled off less incompetently by the actual assassins, who were rather bumbling in the Kim Jong-nam case). Which would lead me to believe you think this attack is somehow categorically different from the other, or that you have changed your mind on such issues in the past year (in which case I would ask you to explain why). I'm asking you to explain what appear without further detail/qualification on your part to be a hypocrisy; note that this is in no way, shape, or form implying that you are advocating war with Russia, and I am still struggling to follow the string of leaps and assumptions you would have to make to extend my statements in that direction.

(Note, too, that I am pointing out that we have an existing precedent for crimes of this sort NOT being legally, politically, or popularly perceived as being WMD attacks. You could go back even further and see that the nerve agent attack on a Tokyo subway in in 1995 that killed 12 people also wasn't considered a WMD attack, despite being an act of terror on a grander scale than this).
As I already acknowledged, it isn't much different from the NK attack, no.

If I treated it differently at the time, its probably just that the potential significance of a nerve agent being used simply didn't occur to me until it was pointed out to me (it didn't occur to me here either until I read comments discussing it as such). But again, I fully acknowledge that the NK attack should be treated with equal seriousness.
No, I'm pointing out that the "contagiousness" of a poison isn't in and of itself a criterion for labeling something a WMD. You do realize chemical weapons aren't just putting a vial of poison in a room and waiting for the fumes to spread out and kill everyone? They require infrastructure and deployment systems on a rather large scale; hell, the Tokyo subway attack only killed 12 people in part because they lacked this infrastructure (you would expect it to kill far more, given the richness of the target for that sort of attack ... the Tokyo subway is massively crowded and especially in the mid 1990s wouldn't have had terribly sophisticated ventilation systems).
All of that is quite true as far as I am aware. Though there is still a particular stigma attached to chemical weapons which I think it is in civilization's interests to maintain.
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K. A. Pital
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Re: Former Russian spy in 'critical condition' after being exposed to unknown substance

Post by K. A. Pital »

What's going on here?

Live by the sword, die by the sword. It is the life of spies. Such is our world.

Getting all riled up here, TRR? Chill out.
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