Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

FAN: Discuss various fictional worlds that don't qualify for SF.

Moderator: Steve

User avatar
GuppyShark
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2829
Joined: 2005-03-13 06:52am
Location: South Australia

Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by GuppyShark »

Metropolis police flew around in jetpacks and shot rayguns at Doomsday, so it's not a given.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

GuppyShark wrote: 2018-03-02 07:50pm Metropolis police flew around in jetpacks and shot rayguns at Doomsday, so it's not a given.
Buffyverse had magic become public knowledge in the post-series comics (and it had an "open secret" vibe by the end of the TV series as well, with a visiting musician in Sunnydale complaining that they hate playing vampire towns, and "Angel" having the DA's office using counter magic against Wolfram and Hart).

Dresden Files is heavily hinting at it coming into the open, if Butcher ever finishes the series.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 18631
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Rogue 9 »

Q99 wrote: 2018-03-02 06:42am I am impressed how much talk there's been of Killmonger's motives, and I've only seen a few people not 'get it'.
Oh, his motives are 100% understandable, but he's still a murderous asshole. He can't even direct his personal revenge plots appropriately; T'challa didn't kill his father, have anything to do with killing his father, and didn't even have knowledge of his father's death until the day before.

Saw it for the second time tonight. One small plot hole: T'challa could have defused the whole Killmonger thing right there in the throne room by simply demanding to know why he'd rescued Klaue from him in Korea. That revelation would have undercut Killmonger's entire base of support.
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician
User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12211
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Lord Revan »

Rogue 9 wrote: 2018-03-03 12:37am
Q99 wrote: 2018-03-02 06:42am I am impressed how much talk there's been of Killmonger's motives, and I've only seen a few people not 'get it'.
Oh, his motives are 100% understandable, but he's still a murderous asshole. He can't even direct his personal revenge plots appropriately; T'challa didn't kill his father, have anything to do with killing his father, and didn't even have knowledge of his father's death until the day before.

Saw it for the second time tonight. One small plot hole: T'challa could have defused the whole Killmonger thing right there in the throne room by simply demanding to know why he'd rescued Klaue from him in Korea. That revelation would have undercut Killmonger's entire base of support.
I've yet to see the film but it could be that T'challa has a bit of a "all outsiders are the same" mentality, he didn't connect the dots that Killmonger was the same man who rescued Klaue in Korea.

What I mean is that T'challa saw Killmonger as just a mook working for Klaue or who ever wanted Klaue rescued and not really worth his attention more then what was needed to get Klaue back.

That said I've not seen the film and could be totally wrong about it but it would make sense.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
Q99
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2105
Joined: 2015-05-16 01:33pm

Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Q99 »

I mean, he was wearing a mask in Korea, so he really wouldn't look the same (granted, an African mask, but still, full face concealing). And I'm pretty sure Killmonger could've spun it, "To put him in the ground and not just talk to him like your American buddies," had T'challa picked up, but there was enough obscuring him that not making the connection makes sense.
Rogue 9 wrote: 2018-03-03 12:37am Oh, his motives are 100% understandable, but he's still a murderous asshole. He can't even direct his personal revenge plots appropriately; T'challa didn't kill his father, have anything to do with killing his father, and didn't even have knowledge of his father's death until the day before.
Yea, but the personal was just part of it, and sins of the father and all that. T'challa was his proxy for all the Wakandas who turned his back on the world, more-so than most due to being the son of his father's killer.
User avatar
Imperial Overlord
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11978
Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
Location: The Tower at Charm

Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Imperial Overlord »

Lord Revan wrote: 2018-03-03 02:13am

I've yet to see the film but it could be that T'challa has a bit of a "all outsiders are the same" mentality, he didn't connect the dots that Killmonger was the same man who rescued Klaue in Korea.

What I mean is that T'challa saw Killmonger as just a mook working for Klaue or who ever wanted Klaue rescued and not really worth his attention more then what was needed to get Klaue back.

That said I've not seen the film and could be totally wrong about it but it would make sense.
No, that doesn't fly. Part of the reason the rescue is a big deal is that T'challa saw and recognized Killmonger's ring, which is a family heirloom. This gets T'challa asking questions about things that have been kept secret. Rogue's right, bringing up Korea would have been a good play because Killmonger's play is based on Wakandan tradition and being backed by W'kabi, who just happens to hate Klaue like poison.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.
User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 16285
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Gandalf »

Rogue 9 wrote: 2018-03-03 12:37am
Q99 wrote: 2018-03-02 06:42am I am impressed how much talk there's been of Killmonger's motives, and I've only seen a few people not 'get it'.
Oh, his motives are 100% understandable, but he's still a murderous asshole. He can't even direct his personal revenge plots appropriately; T'challa didn't kill his father, have anything to do with killing his father, and didn't even have knowledge of his father's death until the day before.
I took it to be that N'Jobu wasn't so much killed by T'Chaka, but the King. So when T'Challa becomes head of state, he inherits all previous grudges as well.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12211
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Lord Revan »

Imperial Overlord wrote: 2018-03-03 06:34am
Lord Revan wrote: 2018-03-03 02:13am

I've yet to see the film but it could be that T'challa has a bit of a "all outsiders are the same" mentality, he didn't connect the dots that Killmonger was the same man who rescued Klaue in Korea.

What I mean is that T'challa saw Killmonger as just a mook working for Klaue or who ever wanted Klaue rescued and not really worth his attention more then what was needed to get Klaue back.

That said I've not seen the film and could be totally wrong about it but it would make sense.
No, that doesn't fly. Part of the reason the rescue is a big deal is that T'challa saw and recognized Killmonger's ring, which is a family heirloom. This gets T'challa asking questions about things that have been kept secret. Rogue's right, bringing up Korea would have been a good play because Killmonger's play is based on Wakandan tradition and being backed by W'kabi, who just happens to hate Klaue like poison.
As I said I've not seen the movie yet so I didn't know about the ring. Seeing as there's something that not only makes T'challa recognize Killmonger as something else then a random mook but also links Killmonger to Wakanda, yeah that's a plot hole.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 18631
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Rogue 9 »

Lord Revan wrote: 2018-03-03 11:16am
Imperial Overlord wrote: 2018-03-03 06:34am
Lord Revan wrote: 2018-03-03 02:13am

I've yet to see the film but it could be that T'challa has a bit of a "all outsiders are the same" mentality, he didn't connect the dots that Killmonger was the same man who rescued Klaue in Korea.

What I mean is that T'challa saw Killmonger as just a mook working for Klaue or who ever wanted Klaue rescued and not really worth his attention more then what was needed to get Klaue back.

That said I've not seen the film and could be totally wrong about it but it would make sense.
No, that doesn't fly. Part of the reason the rescue is a big deal is that T'challa saw and recognized Killmonger's ring, which is a family heirloom. This gets T'challa asking questions about things that have been kept secret. Rogue's right, bringing up Korea would have been a good play because Killmonger's play is based on Wakandan tradition and being backed by W'kabi, who just happens to hate Klaue like poison.
As I said I've not seen the movie yet so I didn't know about the ring. Seeing as there's something that not only makes T'challa recognize Killmonger as something else then a random mook but also links Killmonger to Wakanda, yeah that's a plot hole.
I mean, recognizing him as Wakandan is what made the entire scheme work. If he weren't acknowledged as Wakandan of royal blood, he wouldn't have been eligible to challenge for the throne. But leaving out that he had rescued an enemy of the state from Wakandan justice just so he could kill him himself in a bid for support is just stupid on T'challa's part; Killmonger betrayed Wakanda at that point just as his father had by working with Klaue. Say so, and his entire plan to take over the country falls flat right there.
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician
Q99
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2105
Joined: 2015-05-16 01:33pm

Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Q99 »

Except he really could point out “I did so just to kill him and bring his body to Wakanda. Also he was in US custody at the time, why didn’t you take him first? You had your shot and blew it so I stepped up.”
EnterpriseSovereign
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4000
Joined: 2006-05-12 12:19pm

Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

Indeed- one is the son of a killer, the other the son of a traitor so the "sins of the father" concept goes both ways.
User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 18631
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Rogue 9 »

Q99 wrote: 2018-03-03 11:06pm Except he really could point out “I did so just to kill him and bring his body to Wakanda. Also he was in US custody at the time, why didn’t you take him first? You had your shot and blew it so I stepped up.”
Their communication devices recorded everything, including Klaue's clear familiarity with his rescuers. That dog won't hunt, not if anyone who went on the mission cares to press the case.
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician
User avatar
Coop D'etat
Jedi Knight
Posts: 713
Joined: 2007-02-23 01:38pm
Location: UBC Unincorporated land

Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Coop D'etat »

Rogue 9 wrote: 2018-03-03 12:37am
Q99 wrote: 2018-03-02 06:42am I am impressed how much talk there's been of Killmonger's motives, and I've only seen a few people not 'get it'.
Oh, his motives are 100% understandable, but he's still a murderous asshole. He can't even direct his personal revenge plots appropriately; T'challa didn't kill his father, have anything to do with killing his father, and didn't even have knowledge of his father's death until the day before.

Saw it for the second time tonight. One small plot hole: T'challa could have defused the whole Killmonger thing right there in the throne room by simply demanding to know why he'd rescued Klaue from him in Korea. That revelation would have undercut Killmonger's entire base of support.
While you're right, I'm not sure I'd necessarily term it as a plot hole as such, as it can be justified as a suboptimal move consistent with T'Challa's established character. He tends to be tactiturn and not particularly politically minded so taking a relatively obvious step to undermine his opponent might not occur to him in the heat of the moment. Whereas affirming his position as king by acting like a warrior and accepting the challange is more within his wheelhouse. I read it as him trying to do the same play that worked against M'Baku, beat him in combat and thus subborn submission to his right to leadership. At that point of his life, I'm not sure the concept that he might lose a fair fight against Killmonger is at the forefront of his mind. Also tradition gives Erik the right to challenge him, and T'Challa is the sort who respects that kind of thing.

This fits into the general point about T'Challa. He's a fundamentally good man, but that makes it harder for him to be a king, because being a king requires him to do things that don't come naturally to him.
User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22431
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Mr Bean »

Watched it, despite being super sick I enjoyed the movie even if I felt like it was about 15 minutes to long. Shame about the DC habit of killing off villains as I wish Prince Vegeta had survived the movie. That said the amount of Vibranium used in the movie is surprising to the point even the South Korean car had Vibranium body and... transparent Vibranium windows?

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
EnterpriseSovereign
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4000
Joined: 2006-05-12 12:19pm

Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

Mr Bean wrote: 2018-03-04 10:28pm Watched it, despite being super sick I enjoyed the movie even if I felt like it was about 15 minutes to long. Shame about the DC habit of killing off villains as I wish Prince Vegeta had survived the movie. That said the amount of Vibranium used in the movie is surprising to the point even the South Korean car had Vibranium body and... transparent Vibranium windows?
I noticed that, and how the drivers of said car referred to bullets as being primitive- which sounds stupid until you see the energy-based weapons their fighter craft are equipped with.

The Killmonger plot did reveal the flaw in the whole "asskicking equals authority" thing they had going on in that whoever does better in single combat becomes king, rather than whoever would actually do the best job. I also thought that the priest's actions were a textbook example of a Senseless Sacrifice, since Killmonger just murdered him anyway.
Q99
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2105
Joined: 2015-05-16 01:33pm

Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Q99 »

Zuri, like most else, was thinking in terms of old rules of honor and stuff.
Mr Bean wrote: 2018-03-04 10:28pm Watched it, despite being super sick I enjoyed the movie even if I felt like it was about 15 minutes to long. Shame about the DC habit of killing off villains as I wish Prince Vegeta had survived the movie. That said the amount of Vibranium used in the movie is surprising to the point even the South Korean car had Vibranium body and... transparent Vibranium windows?
Yea, they put small amounts of vibranium in a ton of stuff. They had a mountain of it!

I do wonder if they retrieved the car. The wreck itself is valuable- not just for the vibranium but intelligence-wise!.. though I guess the remote operating system is fairly trashed.
User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12211
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Lord Revan »

EnterpriseSovereign wrote: 2018-03-05 09:11am
Mr Bean wrote: 2018-03-04 10:28pm Watched it, despite being super sick I enjoyed the movie even if I felt like it was about 15 minutes to long. Shame about the DC habit of killing off villains as I wish Prince Vegeta had survived the movie. That said the amount of Vibranium used in the movie is surprising to the point even the South Korean car had Vibranium body and... transparent Vibranium windows?
I noticed that, and how the drivers of said car referred to bullets as being primitive- which sounds stupid until you see the energy-based weapons their fighter craft are equipped with.

The Killmonger plot did reveal the flaw in the whole "asskicking equals authority" thing they had going on in that whoever does better in single combat becomes king, rather than whoever would actually do the best job. I also thought that the priest's actions were a textbook example of a Senseless Sacrifice, since Killmonger just murdered him anyway.
there's a reason why no major real life culture ever had a pure "asskicking equals authority" approach, the leader was always the guy who could balance being a great asskicker and an effective leader (for the standards of said era and culture).

Essentially a good leader would not need to worry about challenges too much, because everyone knew that any warrior better then the current leader would be lousy leader and thus it wouldn't be in anyone's intrest (including the better warrior's) to oust the current leader. Besides into those cultures there where more often then not very specific rules as to what was an acceptble challenge or transfer of power.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
Q99
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2105
Joined: 2015-05-16 01:33pm

Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Q99 »

The key factor is who's allowed to challenge- the leadership of the other tribes, and other members of the royal family. An outsider can only challenge if they're a royal- and even then, if they don't have a policy that appeals to the tribe, I expect a rapid counter-challenge to end things. Killmonger got away with it because, one, he was not merely an exile royal, but came with Wakanda's #1 greatest enemy's body, earning him the support of W'Kabi, leader of the border defenses and his tribe. Having the firm backing of at least one tribe- and possibly tentative backing of the others (it was, iirc, the River tribe representative who was the one to move and ask his name, thus suggesting they were considering it)- meant Killmonger had political support as well.

So, for the most part, warriors will only even be put forward by tribes if they'd be good political leaders, and/or be from the royal family and presumably trained to lead. If a Royal who was a poor leader went forward, again, I expect a rapid counter-challenge, there's very low odds they'd be able to court the kind of support Killmonger did.
User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 16285
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Gandalf »

Isn't the idea of violence determining legitimacy in government the foundation of more than a few countries?

The difference in Wakanda is that instead of the genocidal campaigns of expansion to raise a flag, candidates for monarch duke it out.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
User avatar
LadyTevar
White Mage
White Mage
Posts: 23150
Joined: 2003-02-12 10:59pm

Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by LadyTevar »

About the cars -- it seems they only sent one car over, the other was 'hijacked' by Shuuri with the remote. It still may have been bullet-proof due if it belonged to any of the casino-goers, as they all seemed to be BigNames of the Underworld.
Or, they may have stolen Agent Ross' vehicle. Still, the car chases were awesome, and showed General Okoye and Nakia to be just as capable and dangerous as T'Chala.

Then we come to the end battle. First, the way vibranium was woken into the cloaks was fascinating. Instant shieldwall from W'kabi's tribe, any time they needed it. As the Border protectors, it made perfect sense to have tech hidden in plain sight. They were also the 'farmers and herders' that were Wakanda's face to the world. Nice foreshadowing with both the rhino in the pen, and Okoye calling W'kabi 'my love'. Rhino charge was a brutal thing, and I noticed at the end when T'Chala entered the throne room there were male guards in place of some of the Dore Majaie. Far too many of them had been seen flung through the air as the rhinos came through.

M'Baku was one of the villains in the old comics, the White Gorilla v/s the Black Panther in a conflict going back to when their tribes argued over which totem to follow. It was good they used him as the antagonist T'Chala had to face to become King, and then later as an ally T'Chala had to win over was a nice change. Not surprised he replaced W'kabi on the Grand Council.
Image
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.

"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
Q99
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2105
Joined: 2015-05-16 01:33pm

Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Q99 »

Yea, I really liked how lowkey the tech was until used. The spears, similarly, are frighten people off with spears... unless a sonic blast is needed.

And, sure, having armored rhinos charge out if reinforcements are needed isn't *subtle*, but it still doesn't scream 'supertech'.



Btw, it's looking like Black Panther is solidly outpacing *Avengers*. Nice!
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by mr friendly guy »

Wow, Black Panther has hit a 1 billion mark, and we don't even have China figures yet. And I still haven't seen it.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7700
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by FaxModem1 »

China doesn't like it, as it's 'too black'. Quartz
Image
User avatar
Napoleon the Clown
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2446
Joined: 2007-05-05 02:54pm
Location: Minneso'a

Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

I'd like to point out that when Killmonger first ordered the Heart-Shaped Herb garden burned he was met with verbal resistance. He then physically threatened the person who was trying to talk him out, so everyone in the room concluded that staying alive meant burning the Herb. As to what everyone else would think...
Sig images are for people who aren't fucking lazy.
Q99
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2105
Joined: 2015-05-16 01:33pm

Re: Black Panther Release Thread (spoilers)

Post by Q99 »

FaxModem1 wrote: 2018-03-12 04:29pm China doesn't like it, as it's 'too black'. Quartz
Some don't, but it still made 60m so I wouldn't read too much into Chinese racism from this.

Also, hey, they're seeing something new. Hopefully things will change!
Post Reply