Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

[Kojiro]

What's wrong with that? It's no worse than Han Solo having literally the fastest ship in the Rebel Fleet. Rose is an excellent mechanic.

Well someone has to have the fastest ship and it probably would be the smuggler (A Wings excluded I assume). As to Rose' mechanical skills, I've no idea other than 'she works behind pipes'. But here's the text:

The system was developed by the technician Rose Tico using a computer system to baffle their energy signals.[1]

This is basically the 'hacking is magic' trope- which we also saw with DJ when approaching the Supremacy. I'll believe you can access things maybe you shouldn't from a terminal (such as the Supremacy's shield controls), but I draw the line altering energy emissions from a spacecraft. No amount of computer work is going to change an F-16 into an F-22. More over, one might wonder why, if she can cloak these transports, the same is not applied to other Resistance craft. Fighters are much smaller than the transports and I'm sure they'd love for ships not to pick up on them instantly.

And I'm not sure why the idea that a sensor defeating device exists that can be defeated by a focused scan is hard to buy. It seems like you're wanting to hate the movie more than looking rationally at the science.

Because the entire purpose of sensors is to detect things. They ran a 'de-cloaking scan' which is pretty much what every scan is- the revealing of otherwise imperceptible things. Basically if the Rebels had loaded a transport with bombs and painted it black, they could have flown right up inside the Supremacy (or any other FO ship) because despite having the capability to scan for them, they simply don't. That's insane, yet we saw Rose, Finn and DJ do just that (albeit with a different objective).

Like the hyperspace tracking and ramming, it's one of those things that's going to be more of a headache going forward. A cloak on something like say the bombers or the fighters would be amazing- even if they have to, for some time, limit their output to that of the transport.

[Vendetta]

The fact that you trimmed all of my post where the watsonian/doylian divide and the nature of 'canon' as a marketing tool, and then try to post the obscurity of the source as a was discussed tells me all I need to know really.

I can only presume what you're trying to say is that they could not have introduced such a thing if they had wanted to?

Because yes, a mass market movie can introduce literally the same concept no trouble. It doesn't need more than a 'they'd be crazy to follow us.' Space terrain is not a difficult trope for audiences nor unprecedented in mass market films. It's even been used as a backdrop for comical scenes while escaping a superior force.

Not that I necessarily think they should have, retreading the asteroid field from ESB would be a misstep. Could the writers have introduced such an element if they'd wanted a chase where the rebel fleet escapes via cunning? Absolutely. You can absolutely have your space guerillas take to the space hills and the audience will buy it. Difficult is presenting the rather more realistic case of space 'terrain' that favours a large craft over small ones.

See, the thing with your point is that it actually cuts both ways, yes, the writers have near total freedom to avoid EU or NuEU concepts as they please. They also have the ability to introduce very much whatever they want.

Arguing writing realities vs. character action is essentially saying character does not matter; "it doesn't matter whether Othello believes Iago, as it's a play intended to be tragedy, so the murder will happen anyway."

The fact that the writers could introduce any concepts they want does not actually support the idea being put forward that they should have done so because those concepts have been shown in some supporting material.

People arguing that "Such and such thing definitely exists in Star Wars and so the film is bad because they didn't do that" are wrong, unless the writers did decide to do that thing, it doesn't exist in Star Wars as far as the movies are concerned. Because they didn't, it doesn't.

The point is not "A movie can't do that", but that the movies should be watched as if nothing else exists because they are written as if nothing else exists.

[NecronLord]

Good god, keep you away from something like Waiting for Godot or Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead

"Characters interacting in a featureless white void? That makes no sense! What air did they breathe? And how did they transition from the void to another play? Why didn't they use that technology to jump to Guys and Dolls and save themselves?"

That's a giggle. Surrealism has some rather different genre conventions and expected norms from space opera. In space opera the set dressing serves to provide the 'operatic' stakes of the human conflict in most cases, including in this film (the giant looming menace of the Supremacy) so obviously it is more important to the story than say, the details of the road in Godot.

I've been rewatching and thoroughly enjoying The Mighty Boosh lately, but I'm pretty sure I'd be annoyed if someone in a Star Wars movie randomy stopped to have a conversation with the deliberately crummy looking Man in the Moon.

I mean, hell, I don't actually agree with Fax on most of this stuff, but it's absurd to say that there's nothing important about the setting of the film at all.

[NecronLord]

Well someone has to have the fastest ship and it probably would be the smuggler (A Wings excluded I assume). As to Rose' mechanical skills, I've no idea other than 'she works behind pipes'. But here's the text:

The system was developed by the technician Rose Tico using a computer system to baffle their energy signals.[1]

This is basically the 'hacking is magic'

You don't say? Who cares.

trope- which we also saw with DJ when approaching the Supremacy. I'll believe you can access things maybe you shouldn't from a terminal (such as the Supremacy's shield controls), but I draw the line altering energy emissions from a spacecraft. No amount of computer work is going to change an F-16 into an F-22. More over, one might wonder why, if she can cloak these transports, the same is not applied to other Resistance craft. Fighters are much smaller than the transports and I'm sure they'd love for ships not to pick up on them instantly.

Probably because the same source describes the cloak as a series of engine baffles and a fighter that had such a series of engine modifications that compromised its performance would be... y'know, shit.

Because the entire purpose of sensors is to detect things. They ran a 'de-cloaking scan' which is pretty much what every scan is- the revealing of otherwise imperceptible things. Basically if the Rebels had loaded a transport with bombs and painted it black, they could have flown right up inside the Supremacy (or any other FO ship) because despite having the capability to scan for them, they simply don't. That's insane, yet we saw Rose, Finn and DJ do just that (albeit with a different objective).

Like the hyperspace tracking and ramming, it's one of those things that's going to be more of a headache going forward. A cloak on something like say the bombers or the fighters would be amazing- even if they have to, for some time, limit their output to that of the transport.

Vendetta's not going to like this, but... Star Wars Rebels. The premise is that the Ghost has some kind of 'sensor-invisible' technology just like that, and yes, they exploit the fuck out of it, including yes, landing in a Star Destroyer's hangar bay unopposed and many Imperial bootlickers die.

It doesn't always work, of course, but it works enough. The TLJ transports are going away from the Imperial ships, and not taking any hostile action, and don't get spotted. That's perfectly consistent with the idea of the "cloak" being okay, but not great.

The fact that the writers could introduce any concepts they want does not actually support the idea being put forward that they should have done so because those concepts have been shown in some supporting material.

People arguing that "Such and such thing definitely exists in Star Wars and so the film is bad because they didn't do that" are wrong, unless the writers did decide to do that thing, it doesn't exist in Star Wars as far as the movies are concerned. Because they didn't, it doesn't.

The point is not "A movie can't do that", but that the movies should be watched as if nothing else exists because they are written as if nothing else exists.

You understand that this board has a longstanding tradition of what you might call 'Watsonian' discussion, right? The logical continuation of your position is that no character could have done anything different, because the film is written as it is, and that's that. You can't rebutt the Watsonian with arguments about the nature of the film's production.

If you want to make a point about the value judgement of the film's quality based on secondary materials, sure, but you're rather missing the point of why people enjoy counterfactuals and expanded universe discussion in the first place.

[Vendetta]

You understand that this board has a longstanding tradition of what you might call 'Watsonian' discussion, right? The logical continuation of your position is that no character could have done anything different, because the film is written as it is, and that's that. You can't rebutt the Watsonian with arguments about the nature of the film's production.

If you want to make a point about the value judgement of the film's quality based on secondary materials, sure, but you're rather missing the point of why people enjoy counterfactuals and expanded universe discussion in the first place.

Yeah, and when people have allowed that tradition of discussion to set their expectations for what's going to be included in a movie they have made a massive error of logical thinking.

What this board talks about and how it talks about it is gloriously irrelevant to how these movies are made, and so criticisms of the plot based on that approach miss the point so badly they shoot themselves right in the dick or other applicable genitalia.

[NecronLord]

Yeah, and when people have allowed that tradition of discussion to set their expectations for what's going to be included in a movie they have made a massive error of logical thinking.

Not exactly? There's no disputing taste. You cannot call it an 'error' that I don't like how quickly the sequel trilogy rolled up the good guys and made them less of a fighting force, one space-ship and force-powers excepted, than Walmington on Sea Home Guard. That, more than anything, is my issue with both this film and The Force Awakens.

I am honestly none too fussed about the chase scene, though I found it not particularly impressive.

What this board talks about and how it talks about it is gloriously irrelevant to how these movies are made,

As is the opinion of any given individual moviegoer, so let's all just stop talking? Nonsense, we're here, I hope, because we enjoy talking about sci-fi on the internet, it's a recreational activity that we, you and I both, enjoy.

and so criticisms of the plot based on that approach miss the point so badly they shoot themselves right in the dick or other applicable genitalia.

What you're objecting to is the notion that there's any counterfactual that would work better than Holdo's plan. Now, Lucasfilm do happen to have a guideline for 'what you should consider Star Wars' that includes many alternate examples of how they could have gone about things, in-universe, setting aside the fact of the film script. Using that guide, even when we acknowledge that it (like of course, the inclusion of gratuitous shots of porgs everywhere in the film) is a marketing tool to shift product, gives us a general guide for how to discuss counterfactuals, hypotheticals, and other things about the universe beyond the actual product on screen.

If you're fundamentally not interested in 'how things could go other than the movie's depiction' then do not reply to it.

Of course you are interested in that. Your continuing to post proves your interest. You're just wanting to confine the sources to the films only because you don't want to think about the other products with the Disney Imprimatur on them. Either because you do not like them, or you have the kind of films-only interpretation that many other extreme fans do, such as the guys that claim there are only three star wars films in totum and that prequels and sequels and saga-films are irrelevant because of their lesser cultural impact. You should say that, instead of going on lengthy diatribes about how the films are written.

[Vendetta]

What you're objecting to is the notion that there's any counterfactual that would work better than Holdo's plan.

No, I'm objecting to the notion that these counterfactuals have any relevance as objective criticisms of the movie, which is how they're being presented.

[NecronLord]

Not by me. Find me a quote where I said 'this is the flaw of the movie' and I will present you with ten (10) english pounds by paypal without delay.

Otherwise concede that your objections are irrelevant at the very least to what I've said.

[Vendetta]

Not by me. Find me a quote where I said 'this is the flaw of the movie' and I will present you with ten (10) english pounds by paypal without delay.

Otherwise concede that your objections are irrelevant at the very least to what I've said.

Considering that I originally raised this point in an argument with FaxModem not you, and you chose to argue the point with me, I'm not sure why you think I was talking about what you've said?

[Kojiro]

You don't say? Who cares.

Clearly I do at the least. It breaks my SoD to learn that any ship can become stealth if you just punch a few buttons.

Ok so I've now experienced the 'forum ate my post' thing.Yay.

Short version is that the modifications done aren't to the engine, they're via computer to baffle energy signals. Which is what we see DJ do to the yatch he flies right up the Supremacy's ass. Basically it feels to me like TLJ just uses cloaks as lazy ways to get things done.

[NecronLord]

Considering that I originally raised this point in an argument with FaxModem not you, and you chose to argue the point with me, I'm not sure why you think I was talking about what you've said?

I think it'll be adequate to leave it there, I think my point's made as well as it will be.

Short version is that the modifications done aren't to the engine, they're via computer to baffle energy signals. Which is what we see DJ do to the yatch he flies right up the Supremacy's ass. Basically it feels to me like TLJ just uses cloaks as lazy ways to get things done.

Well, can't argue with that. As I said before it's subjective. I find it a little convenient that they have a pile of stealth modified short-range shuttles but not really unprecedented.

[Galvatron]

If anyone is likely to have a bunch of stealth-modified shuttles, it'd probably be a guerrilla force like the Resistance.

[NecronLord]

Agreed. I don't really find it a bother, it seems strange to put it on sublight craft, but hey, it's what they have. It's very clear in the movie that the Resistance's operating budget is pretty minimal.

[Knife]

Let's not forget that the old Rebel Alliance never found refuge on worlds that were sympathetic to them either. Even if they were heavily defended, the rebels may have surmised that hiding under Mon Cal's planetary shield wouldn't protect them forever and would eventually doom the entire populace to death by either fire or starvation.

With the First Order on the ascension, the Resistance may have simply followed the same line of reasoning and decided that heading to any civilized world of the Republic would be nothing but a death sentence for them.

Not really the same thing though. The old Rebel Alliance was truly a guerrilla force, whereas the GE actually had military control of the galaxy. TLJ is the exact opposite where the Republic should have developed infrastructure, both political and militarily, that the Resistance should be able to either use or appeal to. The Rebels had no where to hide but the shadows, the Resistance as part of the Republic should have the Republic to use.

[CaoCao]

OK, the cosplay party with murders then.

Sorry your totally made up assumption about what this vision was is not the only correct answer? Who would've thought that the Knights of Ren kill people? Shocking.

The KoR killing a possibility? Sure. A random killing being a past event important enough to ensue a vision?

Well, they may go with that now that Ryan dropped the ball in several areas.

The problem is there's no double meaning, one cancels the other.

They don't at all. You're the one assuming they're in conflict, no one else.

If you don't get it...well...you don't.

So, Luke said that last bit 'cause he changed his mind and changed his mind 'cause he said that. A fine circular "reasoning".

No, genius, I just kno whe changed his mind because he said that. That's it. I watched the movie. I could determine - like anyone actually paying attenton could - that Luke gloating to Ben that he had failed in destroying the Jedi is obviously not something who believed the Jedi should end would actually say at that point. This is not rocket science.

And now your circular way of reasoning took you back to almost the first post. Bad writing is not rocket science, it's just that.

Guess the long explanation why the Jedi should end and the literal torch & lightning can be negated by a last moment one liner.

Yes, they can. That's movies. A lot of information is conveyed very efficiently.

Clearly they can...they did it...which doesn't make for a good plot.

Snip the rest... this is just ridiculous.

Oh how convenient, snip the rest! Of course. "Luke wasn't really there so it's actually meaningless for some reason I can't explain" was rdiciulous though.

Explained several times already. Not gonna keep doing that. If you think the ending was good and made sense, continuing this is a waste of time.

On another note, Poe is a dipshit that made a bad trade on taking out the dreadnought. Guess it's pointless for a fleet to worry about a fleet killer. Better to crawl while losing resources like mad and put all that's left in defenseless boats...that's strategical genious.

More unreasonable bullshit. Because the Resistance fleet knew they'd be on the run from a fleet that can track their every move when he attacked the dreadnought, right? Sorry that no one in the Resistance Fleet jumped in their TARDIS and accurately predicted the future.

Nope, smartass, no future predicting is necesary. They are a runaway fleet being targeted by a "fleet killer". It should be at the top of their priority targets list to remove.

And directly dial one of the possible candidates to help you (in the 18 hours or so of slow crawling)...nah, that's also stupid.

Or, you know, they didn't have the ability to do that, like they said. Maybe Maz Kanata isn't in the Outer Rim.

Yeap, Maz had a magical number they could dial from anywhere.

Scater the remaing fleet to friendly or hard to travel territory...also stupid, better left them derelict so they can be vaporized.

What a surprise, a terrible plan that relies on things that are totally made up.

Disney canon has a lot of places that provide an advantage (hard to travel territory). Scatering the ships only leave one of the three vulnerable (and Holdo lost all three of them plus most of the crews).

BTW, this is the first SW movie to indulge in the amount of technobabble you try to endorse to others.

And I never mentioned a NR fleet, so snip.

I guess symbolism and lore are lost on you. long snip

You read something about the phoenix and think it's an obscure legend a few know? Luke had as much of prequel era Jedi as Rey with the books (he even rejected Yoda's idea of killing Vader).

That image still communicated with the living.

Sure, in Episode IX Luke will troll Ben by astral projecting Han's pants.

[Galvatron]

Let's not forget that the old Rebel Alliance never found refuge on worlds that were sympathetic to them either. Even if they were heavily defended, the rebels may have surmised that hiding under Mon Cal's planetary shield wouldn't protect them forever and would eventually doom the entire populace to death by either fire or starvation.

With the First Order on the ascension, the Resistance may have simply followed the same line of reasoning and decided that heading to any civilized world of the Republic would be nothing but a death sentence for them.

Not really the same thing though. The old Rebel Alliance was truly a guerrilla force, whereas the GE actually had military control of the galaxy. TLJ is the exact opposite where the Republic should have developed infrastructure, both political and militarily, that the Resistance should be able to either use or appeal to. The Rebels had no where to hide but the shadows, the Resistance as part of the Republic should have the Republic to use.

I think it's been pretty well established that whatever "developed infrastructure, both political and militarily" you think the New Republic should have had, didn't really exist.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

So, stupidity has been pretty well established. The argument seems like it isn't "Is this canon" so much as "is this canon stupid".

[Galvatron]

I guess it's open to debate as to whether or not they were stupid for not anticipating that the First Order could build a superweapon like the Starkiller.

[Imperial528]

One thing I've been having a hard time reconciling with what is known from the OT is their absolute lack of allies or safe places to go where the First Order couldn't easily hurt them.

In ANH Tarkin states that it's fear of the Death Star that will force the Empire's systems into obedience to the regional governors in the absence of the senate, with Alderaan as the example.

With Starkiller Base it would make sense for systems to fall readily to the First Order. Yet this film opens shortly after Starkiller's destruction.

After the destruction of the Death Star, the Empire held order through military might: a military might that the First Order does not have. I'll buy that they're strong enough to give even the core worlds pause at a direct confrontation, but not that they are strong enough to challenge systems that the much larger, more established Empire saw fit to build a superweapon to keep in line. Especially since those same systems would be the ones in the New Republic that disagreed with the truce/coexistence with the First Order, and thus the mostly likely to prepare for the worst.

I'm planning to rewatch the OT and the PT soon to compare them more directly with the new movies, will probably do a big write up on it.

[Knife]

Let's not forget that the old Rebel Alliance never found refuge on worlds that were sympathetic to them either. Even if they were heavily defended, the rebels may have surmised that hiding under Mon Cal's planetary shield wouldn't protect them forever and would eventually doom the entire populace to death by either fire or starvation.

With the First Order on the ascension, the Resistance may have simply followed the same line of reasoning and decided that heading to any civilized world of the Republic would be nothing but a death sentence for them.

Not really the same thing though. The old Rebel Alliance was truly a guerrilla force, whereas the GE actually had military control of the galaxy. TLJ is the exact opposite where the Republic should have developed infrastructure, both political and militarily, that the Resistance should be able to either use or appeal to. The Rebels had no where to hide but the shadows, the Resistance as part of the Republic should have the Republic to use.

I think it's been pretty well established that whatever "developed infrastructure, both political and militarily" you think the New Republic should have had, didn't really exist.

And if true, it a huge PLOT HOLE. There should be plenty of places to run, but by act of plot there isn't because... we must be chased for an hour. You can't have it both ways. If you shoot down every reasonable 'what if' then you're just left with shitty writing. They could have fixed it easily enough in universe or out of universe.

[Imperial528]

I'd have taken something like:

"We can jump to [system]"
"And inflict a First Order blockade on them?"

Or something like that. Frankly the chase lasting so long was just boring and felt unnecessary. When I was watching the film I expected it to be resolved in the first thirty minutes.

[Knife]

I'd have taken something like:

"We can jump to [system]"
"And inflict a First Order blockade on them?"

Or something like that. Frankly the chase lasting so long was just boring and felt unnecessary. When I was watching the film I expected it to be resolved in the first thirty minutes.

Sure, would have made sense then.

or...

As to where?

Coruscant
Corellia
Kuat
Mandalore
Naboo
Kamino
Mon Calamari
Sullust
What ever planet or region Mon Mothma was from (since the other planet was ditched in EU but she was still a Senator and leader of the Rebels)
* Guess Chandrilla made it into Clone Wars so since that's cannon.... Chandrilla.
Christophsis
Malastare
Cato Nemoidia

All major planets in Cannon, either one of the 10 movies or Clone Wars/Rebels. Each is a developed world as of 30-50 years ago. Each had enough resources to have defensive fleets/shields/orbital or ground based weapons. A good chunk were represented in the Resistance ie: Mon Calamari, Sullust(ian?). Can think of no reason Coruscant or Mon Cala or Sullust would be in a hurry to bow to the FO, especially non human planets since the FO is pretty much aping the fascist racist shit per General Hux.

Or make a new one up, it was their movie. But as said before, they wanted that chase. And it was bad.

[FaxModem1]

Okay, fine. I give up on this discussion. Holdo is the greatest tactician in the Star Wars universe, mired only by the idiocies of Poe, Finn, and Rose. It's a new year. I really don't want to discuss this anymore.

[NecronLord]

Not really the same thing though. The old Rebel Alliance was truly a guerrilla force, whereas the GE actually had military control of the galaxy. TLJ is the exact opposite where the Republic should have developed infrastructure, both political and militarily, that the Resistance should be able to either use or appeal to. The Rebels had no where to hide but the shadows, the Resistance as part of the Republic should have the Republic to use.

Should have, but didn't. Of course that this is a metaphor for appeasement, it misses the subtleties of the interwar period of course, and could certainly be handled better, but yes, the New Republic obviously made some key strategic mistakes, as real-world states have been known to do.

Their fleet being concentrated at Hosnian is one of those Maginot-Line, or the obviation of the Jin Great Wall by the Mongols riding around the walls, tier strategic mistakes; overconfidence in purest form. But that overconfidence is not itself unrealistic. Interwar France, or the Jin Dynasty in China, weren't stupid, something happened they couldn't predict.

I wonder if there's any reason the New Republic didn't forsee the rise of the First Order...

Digressing from the film a little, as it might make you feel better about the Republic writing off the the First Order, the tie-in materials for the strange purple clad creatures in Snoke's throne room (You can see them in this screenshot, towering purple clad figures by the Oculus) reveal that they are strange alien navigators.

Snoke's retinue includes mute alien navigators who originated in the Unknown Regions. Were it not for the ancient hyperspace trails blazed by these towering servants, the Imperial survivors who fled into this uncharted realm would certainly have perished. These navigators designed and operate the oculus viewing scope in Snoke's throne room.

So, the First Order could not have happened without the intervention of an mysterious alien species. Who knows, perhaps the Navigators are the power behind the throne; very Dune that. Without the Navigators, it seems the New Republic's disarmament was entirely rational; there would have been no First Order and the Imperials who disobeyed the Galactic Concordance would have perished in the void.

It's of course, not relevant to the film, but might at some point make an interesting spin-off novel.

[Galvatron]

I wonder if the Starkiller itself was the product of some exotic alien science as well.