Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

[FaxModem1]

Well the original expectation was that they would hide out on Crait, the First Order wouldn't have known they were there and would assume them all dead, and they could be rescued in secret.

When Poe fucked that plan up they had to beg for support anyway, but nobody would or could take even the reduced risk for them.

Which again, relies on everything going perfectly and the First Order assuming that the Resistance won't evacuate when their ships are being blown up. Though, considering how stupid both sides are in this movie, might just be the case. But again, like the Pincer movement, that's Holdo gambling on the First Order being stupid, and getting lucky.

[Vendetta]

Well the original expectation was that they would hide out on Crait, the First Order wouldn't have known they were there and would assume them all dead, and they could be rescued in secret.

When Poe fucked that plan up they had to beg for support anyway, but nobody would or could take even the reduced risk for them.

Which again, relies on everything going perfectly and the First Order assuming that the Resistance won't evacuate when their ships are being blown up. Though, considering how stupid both sides are in this movie, might just be the case. But again, like the Pincer movement, that's Holdo gambling on the First Order being stupid, and getting lucky.

They explicitly don't start deep scanning for stealthed vessels until they are specifically told there will be some, so it's not an unreasonable strategy. (Though it would have been better for the film to show somehow why doing so isn't routine).

[FaxModem1]

Well the original expectation was that they would hide out on Crait, the First Order wouldn't have known they were there and would assume them all dead, and they could be rescued in secret.

When Poe fucked that plan up they had to beg for support anyway, but nobody would or could take even the reduced risk for them.

Which again, relies on everything going perfectly and the First Order assuming that the Resistance won't evacuate when their ships are being blown up. Though, considering how stupid both sides are in this movie, might just be the case. But again, like the Pincer movement, that's Holdo gambling on the First Order being stupid, and getting lucky.

They explicitly don't start deep scanning for stealthed vessels until they are specifically told there will be some, so it's not an unreasonable strategy. (Though it would have been better for the film to show somehow why doing so isn't routine).

This plan relies on people responding to the 'Help us, we're pathetic.' plan at the cost of their capital ships, while also wasting time doing it once they've arrived and not while in transit, as Poe did with Maz. If they aren't 1 to 1 calls, they can be picked up by anyone, and their stealth approach is useless, as they're broadcasting their location while defenseless, while also having sacrificed their capital ships.

Like, for example, as I pointed out earlier in the thread, their medical frigate, which could be invaluable in future operations for recovery of troops and personnel after missions instead of relying on local facilities.

The better option would have been to go to a friendly system, gang up on the FO there, and then figure out how to stop the tracking, as well as resupply.

But a Hoth ripoff with the equivalent of crop dusters as their main defense is a much better location for a base.

[Gandalf]

Doesn't this whole film take place in the few days after TFA? I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of planets were in a position of paralysis after Starkiller blew up the capital and apparently started seizing planets.

Who's going to risk being the first open opponent of the First Order?

It's possible the actual Republic is in paralysis. Still, out of millions of star systems, not one is screaming for war/revenge/strike back after getting their capital nuked? Not one has their own defensive system, shield, patrol craft, fighters, a couple cruisers, ground based anti ship guns? Not one?

Maybe some have that, maybe some don't. Who will risk being the first to stand against crazed space Nazis? If everyone joins, then there's a chance. If not, then the few who stood up are fucked.

[Vendetta]

The better option would have been to go to a friendly system, gang up on the FO there, and then figure out how to stop the tracking, as well as resupply.

Except as we've exhaustively covered, there is nobody to gang up with that has enough force to make a difference.

[Crazedwraith]

Home fleets are also a concept based on the old RPG sense that hyperspace took days or weeks to go places, whereas nothing in the films ever suggests anything other than that hyperspace travel is shown in basically realtime and so galactic crossings are actually a matter of minutes.

If you can put your fleet literally anywhere in the galaxy from anywhere else in under half an hour, a highly centralised anchorage makes sense for economies of scale until someone invents a gun that can shoot whole star systems from the other side of space.

Only if you want an enemy fleet to hang around your system wrecking things for the whole process of getting a message from the attacked system ( which maybe jammed) gathering your fleet and jumping to the world under attack.

The freedom of movement for attack fleets means you need defense ships everywhere to have a hope of intercepting them.

This is a galaxy that can do realtime video communication between any two points in the galaxy on basically personal communications equipment (Poe calling Maz). All it takes is a phone call and however much of the Republic's fleet is on standby alert can arrive within a few minutes. That's not a lot of time for any attacker to do anything.

Making the assumption it's any two points in the galaxy instant communication, not locally. (This has seemed the case in previous films but then they contact Maz in this film but not their allies) Plus that your central response fleet is on constant instant readiness and that they don't have to respond to two threats at once.

And minutes any where in the galaxy? Do the films bare this up? Previous films suggested maybe hours. There are minutes long jump in TLJ but we don't know the distance covered in them afaik.

[Vendetta]

And minutes any where in the galaxy? Do the films bare this up? Previous films suggested maybe hours. There are minutes long jump in TLJ but we don't know the distance covered in them afaik.

What suggests hours in previous films?

There's nothing on screen that shows any signficant passage of time for a hyperspace jump, people arrive in much the same situations as they are in when they leave, and significant events suggest much much faster times (especially the Emperor's shuttle making it to Mustafar at the end of ROTS).

[FaxModem1]

The better option would have been to go to a friendly system, gang up on the FO there, and then figure out how to stop the tracking, as well as resupply.

Except as we've exhaustively covered, there is nobody to gang up with that has enough force to make a difference.

And as has been covered in this thread, that's silly and requires the Simpsons level of world Peace stupidity for it to happen.

There would still need to be local defenses against pirates and the like, or everyone is a target for slavers because the local military took too long because of a crisis elsewhere.

[Crazedwraith]

And minutes any where in the galaxy? Do the films bare this up? Previous films suggested maybe hours. There are minutes long jump in TLJ but we don't know the distance covered in them afaik.

What suggests hours in previous films?

There's nothing on screen that shows any signficant passage of time for a hyperspace jump, people arrive in much the same situations as they are in when they leave, and significant events suggest much much faster times (especially the Emperor's shuttle making it to Mustafar at the end of ROTS).

Things like training scenes in ANH take more than a few minutes to happen. The Trade Fed fully conquer Naboo and set about torturing them while Padme is enroute to Naboo. Padme and Anakin have bonding scenes and a meal on the freighter on the way to Naboo from Coruscant (iirc, maybe I'm confused on that one). Artoo askes if Luke wants him to auto pilot them to Dagobah but look wants to 'leave it on manual for while'. Likewise there was time for conversations and character building and changing of orders during hyperspace trips in Rogue One

Nothing definite I agree but just a general feel that things might not take days but more than five minutes, other wise you just wouldn't need big spaceships at all.

[Crazedwraith]

Plus there's the Falcon. If any ship can get anywhere in the galaxy in a few minutes it makes her status as the fastest ship in the galaxy a bit pointless and this usually thought to mean ftl speed coupled with his .5 past lightspeed comment.

He 'outruns' the Imperials at lightspeed.


eta: And RotJ. 'The imperial fleet is spread out across the galaxy in a vain effort to engage us' so they'll be unable to interfere in the DS2 attack as planned. (It didn't work out that way but let us assume the initial plan was reasonable from what they knew) if the entire imperial fleet can reform and get to Endor in minutes, then the DS2 attack couldn't have worked by the same theory as you think the Republic's central fleet would work.

[Reyvan]

The better option would have been to go to a friendly system, gang up on the FO there, and then figure out how to stop the tracking, as well as resupply.

Except as we've exhaustively covered, there is nobody to gang up with that has enough force to make a difference.

And as has been covered in this thread, that's silly and requires the Simpsons level of world Peace stupidity for it to happen.

There would still need to be local defenses against pirates and the like, or everyone is a target for slavers because the local military took too long because of a crisis elsewhere.

How is it silly to assume that any one planet in the galaxy has a fleet to stand up to the Supremacy and however many Star Destroyers are with it?

Local defense against pirates and slavers probably looks like a couple of Nebulon-Bs or corvettes. Maybe large core systems like Corellia or Kuat would have their own ships on the scale of of the First Order Star Destroyers, but they definitely don't have the dozens that would be required to take on the Supremacy and it's fleet.

If the resistance had taken their ships and jumped to Corellia, all that would happen is that they and the Corellian fleet would be wiped out, and maybe Corellia gets bombarded for daring to harbor the resistance. That would definitely extinguish any spark of hope for anyone to fight against the First Order.

I think the starkiller attack is analogous to if Japan had nuked Pearl Harbor while the carriers were present (and managed to simultaneously nuke Washington, D.C., because geography doesn't quite make this example match up 100%). A significant portion of the US fleet would be wiped out, but they probably wouldn't be a match for a Japanese Fleet that had just wiped out almost all of the US's capital ships, and a large number of support ships. If just one carrier had survived but was being chased by a japanese fleet, it couldn't expect to just go to any US port and repel a Japanese fleet with the the patrol boats and maybe a few destroyers or cruisers that would be present. (Though in this case the carrier could probably get to safety because the Japanese fleet wouldn't have the fuel to chase it to San Francisco or so, that doesn't seem to be the case with the resistance)

You seem to be saying that the resistance should have been able to go to a planet and repel the Supremacys fleet with the local coast guard.

Now if the resistance is able to escape the First Order, they could potentially unite all those planetary forces and remaining republic ships into a force that can challenge the First Order. Probably not on a 1:1 scale, but they could try to whittle down the First Order in multiple engagements, kind of like how the rebellion couldn't engage the empire on an equal playing field, except in this case the forces arrayed against the resistance are probably more like 5:1 instead of the 100:1 or so that the rebellion had to deal with.

Sacrificing a single capital ship and three cruisers in order to keep the resistance personnel and leadership alive so that they can unite their allies later on seems like a reasonable trade off to me.

[FaxModem1]

How is it silly to assume that any one planet in the galaxy has a fleet to stand up to the Supremacy and however many Star Destroyers are with it?

Local defense against pirates and slavers probably looks like a couple of Nebulon-Bs or corvettes. Maybe large core systems like Corellia or Kuat would have their own ships on the scale of of the First Order Star Destroyers, but they definitely don't have the dozens that would be required to take on the Supremacy and it's fleet.

If the resistance had taken their ships and jumped to Corellia, all that would happen is that they and the Corellian fleet would be wiped out, and maybe Corellia gets bombarded for daring to harbor the resistance. That would definitely extinguish any spark of hope for anyone to fight against the First Order.

I think the starkiller attack is analogous to if Japan had nuked Pearl Harbor while the carriers were present (and managed to simultaneously nuke Washington, D.C., because geography doesn't quite make this example match up 100%). A significant portion of the US fleet would be wiped out, but they probably wouldn't be a match for a Japanese Fleet that had just wiped out almost all of the US's capital ships, and a large number of support ships. If just one carrier had survived but was being chased by a japanese fleet, it couldn't expect to just go to any US port and repel a Japanese fleet with the the patrol boats and maybe a few destroyers or cruisers that would be present. (Though in this case the carrier could probably get to safety because the Japanese fleet wouldn't have the fuel to chase it to San Francisco or so, that doesn't seem to be the case with the resistance)

You seem to be saying that the resistance should have been able to go to a planet and repel the Supremacys fleet with the local coast guard.

Now if the resistance is able to escape the First Order, they could potentially unite all those planetary forces and remaining republic ships into a force that can challenge the First Order. Probably not on a 1:1 scale, but they could try to whittle down the First Order in multiple engagements, kind of like how the rebellion couldn't engage the empire on an equal playing field, except in this case the forces arrayed against the resistance are probably more like 5:1 instead of the 100:1 or so that the rebellion had to deal with.

Sacrificing a single capital ship and three cruisers in order to keep the resistance personnel and leadership alive so that they can unite their allies later on seems like a reasonable trade off to me.

Except, as we saw in this film, a wing of bombers is all it takes to give the First Order a black eye by wiping out a fleet killer dreadnought. It even took them time to blow away harmless troop transports.

So in this scenario, a planet's fighters and support craft should be enough to turn the tide. Corellia, unless it's been heavily neutered in the new Canon, should have the forces to face off against the giant boomerang. They could also give Corellia advance notice, like they did Maz, so that the fleet opens fire as soon as First Order ships show up. Potentially to the point to drain the First Order of ships as they're churned into the combat area if they start calling in reinforcements bit by bit, as the First Order in the film also didn't take the time to call for help, and didn't arrive with the Supremacy already there.

And, if that's not an option, again, choose a better battleground, and pick off the First Order ships one by one, evening the odds. Or choose a hard to navigate location, like the Asteroid field from ESB, and sacrifice the Raddus while not giving up the Medical Frigate and other ship. This way, costs are minimized compared to running for two days and slowly dying ship by ship while mutinies occur and people are running for escape pods because you aren't telling anyone what's going on.

And the movie doesn't give us the message that the leadership of the Resistance will be able to unite the galaxy. It gives us the message that Luke dying will give the Resistance child cannon fodder to grind for their cause, because no one else gives a fuck.

[Imperial528]

They could jump to an allied world that has a planetary shield and ground based defenses, such as the ion cannon seen in ESB. At the least that would force a stalemate giving the Resistance's allies time to gather.

[tezunegari]

How is it silly to assume that any one planet in the galaxy has a fleet to stand up to the Supremacy and however many Star Destroyers are with it?

Local defense against pirates and slavers probably looks like a couple of Nebulon-Bs or corvettes. Maybe large core systems like Corellia or Kuat would have their own ships on the scale of of the First Order Star Destroyers, but they definitely don't have the dozens that would be required to take on the Supremacy and it's fleet.

If the resistance had taken their ships and jumped to Corellia, all that would happen is that they and the Corellian fleet would be wiped out, and maybe Corellia gets bombarded for daring to harbor the resistance. That would definitely extinguish any spark of hope for anyone to fight against the First Order.

I think the starkiller attack is analogous to if Japan had nuked Pearl Harbor while the carriers were present (and managed to simultaneously nuke Washington, D.C., because geography doesn't quite make this example match up 100%). A significant portion of the US fleet would be wiped out, but they probably wouldn't be a match for a Japanese Fleet that had just wiped out almost all of the US's capital ships, and a large number of support ships. If just one carrier had survived but was being chased by a japanese fleet, it couldn't expect to just go to any US port and repel a Japanese fleet with the the patrol boats and maybe a few destroyers or cruisers that would be present. (Though in this case the carrier could probably get to safety because the Japanese fleet wouldn't have the fuel to chase it to San Francisco or so, that doesn't seem to be the case with the resistance)

You seem to be saying that the resistance should have been able to go to a planet and repel the Supremacys fleet with the local coast guard.

Now if the resistance is able to escape the First Order, they could potentially unite all those planetary forces and remaining republic ships into a force that can challenge the First Order. Probably not on a 1:1 scale, but they could try to whittle down the First Order in multiple engagements, kind of like how the rebellion couldn't engage the empire on an equal playing field, except in this case the forces arrayed against the resistance are probably more like 5:1 instead of the 100:1 or so that the rebellion had to deal with.

Sacrificing a single capital ship and three cruisers in order to keep the resistance personnel and leadership alive so that they can unite their allies later on seems like a reasonable trade off to me.

Except, as we saw in this film, a wing of bombers is all it takes to give the First Order a black eye by wiping out a fleet killer dreadnought. It even took them time to blow away harmless troop transports.

So in this scenario, a planet's fighters and support craft should be enough to turn the tide. Corellia, unless it's been heavily neutered in the new Canon, should have the forces to face off against the giant boomerang. They could also give Corellia advance notice, like they did Maz, so that the fleet opens fire as soon as First Order ships show up. Potentially to the point to drain the First Order of ships as they're churned into the combat area if they start calling in reinforcements bit by bit, as the First Order in the film also didn't take the time to call for help, and didn't arrive with the Supremacy already there.

And, if that's not an option, again, choose a better battleground, and pick off the First Order ships one by one, evening the odds. Or choose a hard to navigate location, like the Asteroid field from ESB, and sacrifice the Raddus while not giving up the Medical Frigate and other ship. This way, costs are minimized compared to running for two days and slowly dying ship by ship while mutinies occur and people are running for escape pods because you aren't telling anyone what's going on.

And the movie doesn't give us the message that the leadership of the Resistance will be able to unite the galaxy. It gives us the message that Luke dying will give the Resistance child cannon fodder to grind for their cause, because no one else gives a fuck.

That Dreadnought was under the command of an incompetent Admiral who didn't protect it with a fighter screen of the escorting Resurgents, didn't realise the single fighter calling him was stalling for time and held back said Resurgents from opening fire on the Resistance fleet in orbit.

The Captain of the Dreadnought was the only one who realised the plan, but to late.

A competently lead Mandator IV would not fall that easily.
Fighters trying to attack teh defense turrets? TIE fighter screen from both the dreadnought and its escorts.
Bombers (shitty type seen in TLJ)? Defense turrets and TIE fighters as interceptors.
Bigger ships? Resurgent escorts and defense turrets.

Now a newer version of the Y-wing would be far more useful because it can at least dodge.

And this is why I consider Poe to be in the right to press the attack. The Fulminatrix was a target of opportunity and the cost of its destruction was a bargain considering it the high losses were mostly due to a lucky hit by a destroyed TIE fighter hitting a bomber that had it's bombs activated for the attack run. That alone cost them three or four bombers and fighters. Only one or two bombers went down to enemy fire IIRC.

And with the Fulminatrix destroyed that's one less Dreadnought the Republic/Resistance allies have to worry about. The FO Resurgents are bad enough considering the FO could, at least according to Wookiepedia, field 30 of them to hunt down the Resistance. (Though I only remember seeing no more than possibly 7 to lower around 10-ish Resurgents in the Supremacy fleet)

But that leads to the question: How many ships does the First Order have?

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Screw Prequel-style World of Warcraft Jedi Force power spam. C'mon.

It's better than the prequel trilogy using force powers because... it's Luke using force powers? C'mon, this is just a gratuitous swipe at the PT.

Damn that PT for showing us Jedi and Sith doing things Jedi and Sith are known to do. It's terribles.

No, the prequel trilogy treated the force like X-gene superpowers. Students didn't learn to be one with all life, to look ahead and back, to reflect on their inner natures; they learned how to fight using the lightsaber and wire fu.

Shroom prefers the OT Force, the orientalist appropriation of Easter philosophy with a bit of woo-woo spirituality thrown in. In the OT, one learned about the Force through Yoga and meditation. Then you go out for frozen yogurt.

So to recap:

OT: Crouching Tiger Hidden a dragon

PT: Wolverine: Origins

ST: Marvel's Touched By an Angel.

[CaoCao]

Abrams said that the vision, at least that part, was of the past. The past of the Force (Kylo, the Knights and Luke) and her past (when her parents abandon her).

Now, if you want to believe it's about a cosplay party Ben and friends went to...well...I won't say anything.

So what if it's the past? Is the destruction of Luke's training temple the only thing that could possibly have happened in the past? Kylo and his Knights did nothing in between then and TFA?

OK, the cosplay party with murders then.

That she had the knowledge because she had the books. It is clearly implied that she had everything she needed inside of her (the connection to the Force and her good personality). That was a particular moment of good writing.

Then someone decided to dumb it down and make a more literal passing of the baton (screwing the previous scene).

Or it was always a double-meaning. I see no reason to insert some sort of interfering someone for no reason.

The problem is there's no double meaning, one cancels the other.

You're pulling this out of...nowhere. He explained in detail why he thought the Jedi must end, never why they should continue nor did he recognize a mistake in what he said. He "returns" to save his sister, risking his death, in a close to in-character moment.

Erm - at the very end of the film Luke literally gloats to Ben that he won't be the last Jedi.

So, Luke said that last bit 'cause he changed his mind and changed his mind 'cause he said that. A fine circular "reasoning". Guess the long explanation why the Jedi should end and the literal torch & lightning can be negated by a last moment one liner.

Snip the rest... this is just ridiculous.

On another note, Poe is a dipshit that made a bad trade on taking out the dreadnought. Guess it's pointless for a fleet to worry about a fleet killer. Better to crawl while losing resources like mad and put all that's left in defenseless boats...that's strategical genious.

And directly dial one of the possible candidates to help you (in the 18 hours or so of slow crawling)...nah, that's also stupid.

Scater the remaing fleet to friendly or hard to travel territory...also stupid, better left them derelict so they can be vaporized.

[FaxModem1]

Except, as we saw in this film, a wing of bombers is all it takes to give the First Order a black eye by wiping out a fleet killer dreadnought. It even took them time to blow away harmless troop transports.

So in this scenario, a planet's fighters and support craft should be enough to turn the tide. Corellia, unless it's been heavily neutered in the new Canon, should have the forces to face off against the giant boomerang. They could also give Corellia advance notice, like they did Maz, so that the fleet opens fire as soon as First Order ships show up. Potentially to the point to drain the First Order of ships as they're churned into the combat area if they start calling in reinforcements bit by bit, as the First Order in the film also didn't take the time to call for help, and didn't arrive with the Supremacy already there.

And, if that's not an option, again, choose a better battleground, and pick off the First Order ships one by one, evening the odds. Or choose a hard to navigate location, like the Asteroid field from ESB, and sacrifice the Raddus while not giving up the Medical Frigate and other ship. This way, costs are minimized compared to running for two days and slowly dying ship by ship while mutinies occur and people are running for escape pods because you aren't telling anyone what's going on.

And the movie doesn't give us the message that the leadership of the Resistance will be able to unite the galaxy. It gives us the message that Luke dying will give the Resistance child cannon fodder to grind for their cause, because no one else gives a fuck.

That Dreadnought was under the command of an incompetent Admiral who didn't protect it with a fighter screen of the escorting Resurgents, didn't realise the single fighter calling him was stalling for time and held back said Resurgents from opening fire on the Resistance fleet in orbit.

The Captain of the Dreadnought was the only one who realised the plan, but to late.

A competently lead Mandator IV would not fall that easily.
Fighters trying to attack teh defense turrets? TIE fighter screen from both the dreadnought and its escorts.
Bombers (shitty type seen in TLJ)? Defense turrets and TIE fighters as interceptors.
Bigger ships? Resurgent escorts and defense turrets.

Now a newer version of the Y-wing would be far more useful because it can at least dodge.

And this is why I consider Poe to be in the right to press the attack. The Fulminatrix was a target of opportunity and the cost of its destruction was a bargain considering it the high losses were mostly due to a lucky hit by a destroyed TIE fighter hitting a bomber that had it's bombs activated for the attack run. That alone cost them three or four bombers and fighters. Only one or two bombers went down to enemy fire IIRC.

And with the Fulminatrix destroyed that's one less Dreadnought the Republic/Resistance allies have to worry about. The FO Resurgents are bad enough considering the FO could, at least according to Wookiepedia, field 30 of them to hunt down the Resistance. (Though I only remember seeing no more than possibly 7 to lower around 10-ish Resurgents in the Supremacy fleet)

But that leads to the question: How many ships does the First Order have?

It's rather remarkable how both sides suffer greatly in tactics and strategy. It makes sense, considering one side is full of child abductees and Neo-Imperials who survived the war, the leftovers as it were. And the other is the volunteers from the gutters of the galaxy and their very rich aristocratic benefactors who are used to giving orders and not following them. It would explain why they are both so awful.

The Proxy war makes sense until somehow the First Order is threatening the entire galaxy and is able to fund all these mega super weapons but not sound strategy for their commanders. Then you wonder what the New Republic and the Imperial Remnant are doing all this time, and isn't really causing a galactic war.

[FaxModem1]

On another note, Poe is a dipshit that made a bad trade on taking out the dreadnought. Guess it's pointless for a fleet to worry about a fleet killer. Better to crawl while losing resources like mad and put all that's left in defenseless boats...that's strategical genious.

And directly dial one of the possible candidates to help you (in the 18 hours or so of slow crawling)...nah, that's also stupid.

Scater the remaing fleet to friendly or hard to travel territory...also stupid, better left them derelict so they can be vaporized.

But you see, Holdo is a genius and shouldn't be questioned, even while her actions are getting everyone killed.

[Gandalf]

Except, as we saw in this film, a wing of bombers is all it takes to give the First Order a black eye by wiping out a fleet killer dreadnought. It even took them time to blow away harmless troop transports.

So in this scenario, a planet's fighters and support craft should be enough to turn the tide. Corellia, unless it's been heavily neutered in the new Canon, should have the forces to face off against the giant boomerang. They could also give Corellia advance notice, like they did Maz, so that the fleet opens fire as soon as First Order ships show up. Potentially to the point to drain the First Order of ships as they're churned into the combat area if they start calling in reinforcements bit by bit, as the First Order in the film also didn't take the time to call for help, and didn't arrive with the Supremacy already there.

Right, and what happens to Corellia then? They've just become the focal point for Everybody versus the First Order. Win or lose, it's not looking good for them, especially since the FO has the sort of weapons which can blow up planets from crazy distances.

And, if that's not an option, again, choose a better battleground, and pick off the First Order ships one by one, evening the odds. Or choose a hard to navigate location, like the Asteroid field from ESB, and sacrifice the Raddus while not giving up the Medical Frigate and other ship. This way, costs are minimized compared to running for two days and slowly dying ship by ship while mutinies occur and people are running for escape pods because you aren't telling anyone what's going on.

And the movie doesn't give us the message that the leadership of the Resistance will be able to unite the galaxy. It gives us the message that Luke dying will give the Resistance child cannon fodder to grind for their cause, because no one else gives a fuck.

Even if the Rebels win that encounter (somehow), don't they then have a situation where they're out of fuel and FO reinforcements are imminent?

[eMeM]

What's the alternative (edit: to being eveybody vs the empire battleground)? Hoping that FO will leave you alone after they are finished with the Republic fleet?

[NecronLord]

The *best* option is to jump the Ninka and the other small ships to the nebula from (Canon) Star Wars Rebels that ignores shields and destroys ships, biggest ships first, and lose them in that.

[Vendetta]

What's the alternative (edit: to being eveybody vs the empire battleground)? Hoping that FO will leave you alone after they are finished with the Republic fleet?

Organising a concentrated and co-ordinated military response, siphoning off forces from system defences that are individually too weak to challenge the First Order to be used by a new armed resistance once they have become complacent and Snoke has put up a big red and black "mission accomplished" banner on his Star Destroyer and told everyone that he has won their hearts and minds now.

[FaxModem1]

What's the alternative (edit: to being eveybody vs the empire battleground)? Hoping that FO will leave you alone after they are finished with the Republic fleet?

Organising a concentrated and co-ordinated military response, siphoning off forces from system defences that are individually too weak to challenge the First Order to be used by a new armed resistance once they have become complacent and Snoke has put up a big red and black "mission accomplished" banner on his Star Destroyer and told everyone that he has won their hearts and minds now.

No no no, the obvious tactic is to have them chase you and abandon ship every time the enemy looks scary while not calling for help at all until most of your forces are killed. That and put those who question you or actually fight the enemy in the brig. It's the only way to win./sarcasm

In truth, your tactic would work, but at the cost of who knows how many planets that resist? Better to bring them to an advantageous battleground immediately, such as the nebula Necronlord mentioned and I made reference to several times.

Except, as we saw in this film, a wing of bombers is all it takes to give the First Order a black eye by wiping out a fleet killer dreadnought. It even took them time to blow away harmless troop transports.

So in this scenario, a planet's fighters and support craft should be enough to turn the tide. Corellia, unless it's been heavily neutered in the new Canon, should have the forces to face off against the giant boomerang. They could also give Corellia advance notice, like they did Maz, so that the fleet opens fire as soon as First Order ships show up. Potentially to the point to drain the First Order of ships as they're churned into the combat area if they start calling in reinforcements bit by bit, as the First Order in the film also didn't take the time to call for help, and didn't arrive with the Supremacy already there.

Right, and what happens to Corellia then? They've just become the focal point for Everybody versus the First Order. Win or lose, it's not looking good for them, especially since the FO has the sort of weapons which can blow up planets from crazy distances.

Unless they have more Starkillers, the First Order is in trouble compared to an enraged galaxy that just received an unjustified sucker punch from them.

And, if that's not an option, again, choose a better battleground, and pick off the First Order ships one by one, evening the odds. Or choose a hard to navigate location, like the Asteroid field from ESB, and sacrifice the Raddus while not giving up the Medical Frigate and other ship. This way, costs are minimized compared to running for two days and slowly dying ship by ship while mutinies occur and people are running for escape pods because you aren't telling anyone what's going on.

And the movie doesn't give us the message that the leadership of the Resistance will be able to unite the galaxy. It gives us the message that Luke dying will give the Resistance child cannon fodder to grind for their cause, because no one else gives a fuck.

Even if the Rebels win that encounter (somehow), don't they then have a situation where they're out of fuel and FO reinforcements are imminent?

Then they can call Maz for a refill once she's no longer dealing with a labor strike.

[Mange]

The differences are pretty stark:
ROTJ: Ackbar listens to subordinates, gathers information, makes the right calls.
TNJ: Poe just get everyone killed because YOU DIDN'T BELIEVE IN THE PLAN (that you were not across but somehow shared with a slicer you never met).

And? Are you saying that Ackbar shoudn't have been killed off so we can watch the puppet bark correct orders? Or maybe Poe should just not make any mistakes, learn, grow or change?

Too bad that any character growth Poe (the second worst main character of Star Wars IMO) had was nullified by the character's stupidity (blabbering about refueling the transports over an open channel).

Letting go of the past. Also, about half or more of your plot holes have simple explanations if you watched the movie.

While I think the theme of the movie was quite obvious as they beat it over the head of the audience, it was buried in a plot that felt like a boring version of the nBSG pilot "33" with the difference being that the BSG-crew actually accomplished something. Otherwise, I agree with CaoCao, TLJ is a mess with glaring plot holes and changing of the rules.

[Kurgan]

Just for those saying they liked The Last Jedi and it thought was a good movie:

Do you feel TFA was a good movie? Was it better or worse, in your view, than TLJ? Not in terms of calcs, I mean in terms of entertainment value and as an "installment in the Star Wars saga."

I personally didn't think much of both, and think this new one was worse. But I'm curious to hear what you think.