I know that the HRE wasn't german, but were they actally several distinct cultures and languages but everyone still got along? (besides that one time with the religion thing
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Moderator: K. A. Pital
There certainly was a shortage of competitors in 800 AD or 962 AD; I'm not sure which date you're using for the founding of the Holy Roman Empire but it's a true statement either way.
In what way was it “working”? I am just curious as to how a loose collection of kingdoms amd duchies was a working empire, that is all. I am not indicting it, just noting that it was not a nation-state in the modern sense and therefore saying it was a “working multicultural state” is plain wrong.
The most likely candidates would be external defense against large outside threats (e.g. the Magyars early on or the Turks later on), the maintenance of internal peace (but see Solauren's remarks), or the promotion of communications, commerce, and culture across a large area where they would otherwise have broken down into barbarism and isolation.K. A. Pital wrote: ↑2017-12-25 02:34amIn what way was it “working”? I am just curious as to how a loose collection of kingdoms amd duchies was a working empire, that is all. I am not indicting it, just noting that it was not a nation-state in the modern sense and therefore saying it was a “working multicultural state” is plain wrong.
I don't think Thanas ever said it was a state. Was it working in comparison to other regimes/kingdom/polities of its era? Pretty much unless you want to compare to the Byzantines.K. A. Pital wrote: ↑2017-12-25 02:34amIn what way was it “working”? I am just curious as to how a loose collection of kingdoms amd duchies was a working empire, that is all. I am not indicting it, just noting that it was not a nation-state in the modern sense and therefore saying it was a “working multicultural state” is plain wrong.
So the USA was not a functional state in the 19th century? I don't even know what you are talking about here in the modern sense anyway considering the question asked whether the HRE was working.
There was at no time during the existence of the HRE a shortage of competitors, no matter the 800 or 962 date. Even the founding of the HRE was a direct result of competition, namely about who gets to keep the Imperial dignity awarded to Charlemagne. I would love for you to point out to me a specific time period in which the HRE was not in competition with any of its neighbours.Simon_Jester wrote: ↑2017-12-25 12:23amThere certainly was a shortage of competitors in 800 AD or 962 AD;
You can compare the HRE directly to any other European kingdom of the time and you will find that it worked better or at least as good as any of them.I'm not sure which date you're using for the founding of the Holy Roman Empire but it's a true statement either way.
The only candidate I can think of for a competitor would be the Byzantine Empire. The Byzantines fared less well than the Holy Roman Empire in terms of weathering invasions and threats, although on the other hand they were under far more direct pressure, so I'm not sure it's an entirely fair contest.
It was working as it being the victors of the competition over who gets to keep the Imperial dignity, it was working as a provider of external security (as in defeating the challenges of invading forces, the greatest being the French, Arabs (later Ottoman), Magyars etc. It was also working as a provider of internal security. The typical feudal feuds happened in any other kingdom as well. But the HRE not only limited the feuds (as in allowing them to happen under certain requirements) but also tried to completely abolish them and in that process started codification of important lawws regarding internal security which are still important today. The HRE was guaranteeing trade and it was the first european nation to have something of a constitutional court that was always in session and that resolved hundreds of cases peacefully through mediation and judgements.K. A. Pital wrote: ↑2017-12-25 02:34am In what way was it “working”? I am just curious as to how a loose collection of kingdoms amd duchies was a working empire, that is all. I am not indicting it, just noting that it was not a nation-state in the modern sense and therefore saying it was a “working multicultural state” is plain wrong.
My apologies, I was thinking in terms of specifically similar entities (i.e. claimants to the Roman legacy, that made systematic attempts to stretch their sway over multiple local cultures). As a result, I largely misunderstood your comments and the terms on which you were making the comparison, and thought to compare the Holy Roman Empire only to the Byzantines. A standard by which I did not think the Holy Roman Empire would be found lacking, on the whole.Thanas wrote: ↑2017-12-26 11:23amThere was at no time during the existence of the HRE a shortage of competitors, no matter the 800 or 962 date. Even the founding of the HRE was a direct result of competition, namely about who gets to keep the Imperial dignity awarded to Charlemagne. I would love for you to point out to me a specific time period in which the HRE was not in competition with any of its neighbours.
Ah, my apologies. I could have phrased some of the stuff better.Simon_Jester wrote: ↑2017-12-26 01:02pmMy apologies, I was thinking in terms of specifically similar entities (i.e. claimants to the Roman legacy, that made systematic attempts to stretch their sway over multiple local cultures). As a result, I largely misunderstood your comments and the terms on which you were making the comparison, and thought to compare the Holy Roman Empire only to the Byzantines. A standard by which I did not think the Holy Roman Empire would be found lacking, on the whole.Thanas wrote: ↑2017-12-26 11:23amThere was at no time during the existence of the HRE a shortage of competitors, no matter the 800 or 962 date. Even the founding of the HRE was a direct result of competition, namely about who gets to keep the Imperial dignity awarded to Charlemagne. I would love for you to point out to me a specific time period in which the HRE was not in competition with any of its neighbours.
I think Aligheri and Petrarca for example qualify as ethnic culture, which is enough to differentiate their culture from, say, the culture of Vogelweide.K. A. Pital wrote: ↑2017-12-31 05:13am Before the formation of proper nation-states and the rise of absolutism, consolidation of the nations, national culture wasn’t even a thing.