Star Wars: The Last Jedi release thread (spoilers)

[NecronLord]

I still don't understand how there's an entire discussion tangent about the way the Resistance bombers dropped their bombs.

It's an aesthetic thing. I and others find those shots make us wonder about the contraptions in a way TIE bombers never did.

I fucking hate nerds.

You don't get to straight facedly go 'reee nerds' while posting here Shroomy, you nerd.

[APlayerHater]

Everything below here is spoilers: Fair Warning.

People have pointed out the many flaws to this movie in another thread, but I thought I'd dedicate a whole thread solely to complaining about this movie.

I guess people could also defend the movie if they wanted to. I'm not going to bother doing any "I told you so"s to any Rey defenders about her being a Mary Sue. I mean, she still is, arguably even more so than before (where did she learn to swim?), but she's hardly the worst thing in this movie.

My personal disappointments:

No Jedi Training:

• Having Rey master every force ability in TFA with zero training just created a scenario in this movie where Luke has nothing to teach her. I honestly think if the writers or director of this movie could think of a single lesson for Luke to teach Rey, they would have thrown it in this movie. The only thing Rey learns in this film is sword techniques... Which I guess she just figures out on her own by swinging at a rock for about 10 hours.
  
  Next time we see her pick up a lightsaber, she beats Luke in a stick-fighting duel. Then the next time she picks up a lightsaber she takes on 10 master swordsmen. To my knowledge jedi train for decades to master swordsmanship, but screw it; let's just dumb everything down for plot convenience. You could say Luke never trained with a lightsaber, but he also lost his 1 fight in TESB, had his hand chopped off, and Vader wasn't even trying to kill him.
  
  All we learn about the force in this movie is that it's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds and penetrates us and binds the galaxy together... So more rehashing.

Power Creep:

• Just like in TFA, there's a massive power creep in what force users can do. Ever since Disney took over, it seems like they have no idea how to make the movie exciting except to just make the new characters more powerful.
  
  Vader was able to choke someone on his own ship, using the TV screen to eyeball where the guy was on it. Now Snoke can pick you up and throw you around from a hyperspace jump away like it's no big deal.
  
  Snoke can totally immobilize other force users and throw them around, while simultaneously reading their minds. He can also use Sith lightning; I'd ask how he learned such a power, but we've already established you no longer need to be taught force powers; you just pick them when you level up.
  
  Master Yoda had to focus, close his eyes, and slowly lift an X Wing out of a lake. Similarly, Yoda had to focus to deflect a tiny amount of rocks dropped on him by Dooku. Rey can casually pick up many tons of rocks with a simple thought.
  
  Yoda summons a lightning bolt.
  
  Force astral projection to another planet light years away.
  
  Snoke's Mind-Linking powers and (apparently) long-ranged Kylo-Corrupting powers, that somehow corrupted Kylo at Jedi Academy. Unless Snoke was an Alex-Jones-type alternative news anchor I have no idea how he could have corrupted Kylo without having met him. Unless Snoke was just hanging out near the Jedi academy in his sexy silk robe, selling the kids cigarettes.

This Movie is a Mash-Up of TESB and RotJ, but with the scenes rearranged in random order:

• This movie begins with the space-battle portion of the battle of Hoth, with ships fleeing a planet while orbital bombardment destroys a rebel base.
  
  It then becomes the part of TESB where Han and Leia have a deactivated hyperdrive and are trying to evade the Empire. Except it's now just Leia fleeing the Empire and they can't use the Hyperdrive because plot. To be fair, the hyperdrive has never worked in any of these movies.
  
  Rose and Finn then go to Casino Planet (Cloud City) to get help to escape the empire (using a ship with a working hyperdrive to escape. One wonders why all the resistance members didn't just pile into different transports and hyperdrive in different directions. Or you could have sent Rose and Finn ahead to the secret base to send out the distress signal... Or just have Rose and Finn fly off somewhere in the galaxy to get a distress signal out... Or send all those ships on autopilot to hyperspace ram Snoke's ship...).
  --Anyway, Rose and Finn go to get someones help and are also betrayed to the empire by the person they asked for help. So, you know, same difference. Sicario Guy is Lando.
  
  Rey goes to a secluded planet in the middle of nowhere to meet a hermit Jedi-Master and be trained in the ways of the force, just like Luke. Like Yoda, Luke refuses to train Leia at first until convinced by a ghost to do so. Rey leaves to go track down Kylo against the advice of Luke (like Luke in Empire), although in this movie it's not to save her friends with the resistance (I guess since she's known about the resistance for about... 2 hours now), but just because she's now Kylo's friend or something; she didn't seem to care about the Resistance ships getting blown up until Snoke pointed it out to her.
  
  There is a throne room scene basically identical to the one in RotJ. Rey willingly surrenders to TFA just like Luke to the Empire. They take an elevator up to the throne room. Snoke shows Rey the fleet being destroyed and tells her the rebellion will be wiped out, but she refuses to yield so Snoke renders her helpless and is about to kill her. Snoke is then betrayed by his pupil; although in this movie it's not because Rey has brought out the goodness in Kylo and made him realize that he was wrong, but because they're friends now or something.
  
  Finn and the gang go to a snow planet, but it's salt so it's not snow; it just looks the same and there are imperial walkers there trying to take out a rebel base, and the heroes have to go out in little ships to fight the walkers. At least in Empire they had a plan, in this movie they just ride out on their little ships that don't have any weapons, and accomplish nothing. They don't even slow down the empire in setting up their stupid laser battering ram, they accomplish nothing in this scene. These characters could have just stayed in doors and had some kind of character-building moment or something, waiting for death... Or we could have used this time in the movie to put some Luke/Rey training in. This scene is pointless.
  
  Luke then appears and walks outside to sacrifice himself and buy more time for his friends to escape, dueling his old Padawan to prevent Kylo from walking through a door, just like Obi Wan. Luke then ceases to exist and become one with the force after distracting Kylo with a sword fight for a few seconds... To be fair, this was a scene from ANH that they're ripping off.
  
  The film then ends with a little slave boy looking off at the stars and showing us he has force powers, and a rebellion-branded ring, which was probably a McDonalds Happy Meal tie-in or something.

Yoda Puppet Looked Terrible:

• The Yoda Puppet was awful, the lightning summoning was silly (accomplished nothing anyway, which is the theme of this movie.) The Yoda Puppet seems more puppetlike than the original; they wanted you to know this was a puppet. His cane-motions are exaggerated when he walks, just so you know for a 'fact' that there is someone under the frame, moving that cane and carrying the puppet along with an exaggerated bobbing motion. It looks like someone doing an impression of the way Yoda moves.
  
  Yoda's face is stuck in this super chubby-cheeked smile, his mouth barely flaps and it looks like a nutcracker while doing so, and his forehead is completely sunken in. Also he's this super extreme shade of green, although that could be due to the blue ghost FX they used.
  
  Yoda's voice sounds terrible and his personality is wrong. I know it's Frank Oz, but he sounds like someone doing a bad impression of Yoda. The character even acts like a doofus, despite Yoda only ever acting silly as a way of testing Luke on Dago bah and hiding his identity. Every time after that in Empire and Jedi, he never cracks any jokes. Also he uses the phrase "page-turner," like this 900 year old dead jedi is throwing around jokes we'd use in 2017.
  
  Why does Yoda suddenly think the Jedi suck as well? What? --I guess he must have known the tree was empty, so maybe he doesn't. Who knows.

Wasted Potential:
There's so much wasted potential in this movie.

• We could have had Kylo and Rey team up and do something new, like they teased. Luke already established the idea that the Jedi were wrong, and that thinking about the force as Light-Side or Dark-Side is wrong. We also have the Codebreaker guy saying that the same people make weapons for the Empire and Rebellion, further blurring the lines. For some reason they pulled a 180 after that, and suddenly Rey is a Jedi and the avatar of the light side of the force, and Kylo is a sith and the avatar of the dark side of the force, and we have our hero and villain. We are told Luke is wrong, and that there are literal Light Sides and Dark Sides with a will of their own, who are sentient, and can empower people...
  
  They never establish the Republic as being something worth protecting or fighting for. All we see is that they have a couple planets in a solar system somewhere, and that under their rule there is rampant slavery throughout the galaxy (We see it on Jakuu and Casino Planet). The New Republic was completely useless and limp wristed and let the first order take over the galaxy while they did nothing.
  
  We could have had a war between the Republic Remnant and TFO; a proper civil war. Now it seems the rebels are far worse equipped than they've ever been and TFA has gone from having 1 base/superweapon in the middle of nowhere to controlling the entire galaxy in the span of about 2 hours. The status Quo was forcefully reset to where it was during ANH, so that these movies could soullessly rehash the originals.
  
  Captain Phasma is completely wasted again. After being thrown in the garbage in TFA and committing high treason by selling out TFO to save her own skin, she's back in this movie for one action scene before falling down a bottomless pit into fire. There is also an attempted execution by laser axes in this scene, and BB8 driving an AT-ST, both of which are stupid.
  
  Like I said before, we could learn more about the force. All Luke has to say about the force is that it exists, and he just plagiarizes Obi Wan's description of it.
  
  Rey's Vision. Just like Luke going off on his own to have a vision in a darkside place, Rey goes and has a vision in a dark side place. While Luke learned that he could become just like Darth Vader if he let his passions take control of him, Rey learned that... Um... There is a mirror. It's basically the scene from Harry Potter where HP looks in a mirror wanting to see his parents, except in this movie Rey fails at it and sees nothing.

I could go on, and I will in the future. Maybe I'll format this better later as well.
Anyone have any thoughts?

[Crazedwraith]

My thought is... why not post this in the review thread? plenty of complaining happening there.

[Gaidin]

On power creep...I figure this will either be accepted or it won't by whomever reads it, but Rian Johnson has openly commented quite broadly:

Interview.

Q&A Rian Johnson on the evolution of the Force in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' and more spoilers

As Obi-Wan Kenobi once told young Luke Skywalker, “The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things — it surrounds us, and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.”

Ever since Tatooine’s favorite farm boy learned about the Force, “Star Wars” fans have devoured every bit of the universe that’s come alive in the galaxy far, far away over the course of eight movies and counting.

But in Disney’s weekend box-office smash “Star Wars: The Last Jedi,” writer-director Rian Johnson (“Brick,” “Looper”) takes bold leaps and shakes up the “Star Wars” universe, sending “Force Awakens” heroes Rey (Daisy Ridley), Finn (John Boyega), and Poe Dameron (Oscar Isaac) further into the fight between light and dark with one surprise after another.

How much does “The Last Jedi” redefine the rules of Force physics as we know it — and what do these tantalizing new possibilities mean for the future of “Star Wars?” Who is Snoke, anyway? What exactly can Force ghosts do from beyond the astral plane? Has Kylo Ren ever kissed a girl?

Back in Los Angeles between globe-trotting appearances, a week after his star-studded premiere, Johnson answered all these burning “Star Wars” questions and more. Heavy spoiler warning: Best to read after watching “Star Wars: The Last Jedi.”

---------

“The Last Jedi” takes much of what we all thought we knew about this 40-year-old franchise and how the rules of the Force work, and expands them in some wild new ways. Knowing the doors you were going to open, what were your consultations like with Lucasfilm’s in-house protectors of the canon while writing the script?

There is a man named Pablo Hidalgo who is the sweetest dude in the universe, and he’s one of several keepers of the flame at Lucasfilm. It would always be a conversation, and if the story required it and if it felt like it stretches into new territory but doesn’t break the idea of what the Force can do, Pablo was down — I got the blessing.

The evolution of Rey’s relationship with Kylo Ren takes an intense and pivotal turn in “The Last Jedi.” We learn that Supreme Leader Snoke has linked them through the Force, as if he were connecting a call at a switchboard — an idea thematically mirrored in Poe’s “bad connection” scene with Hux earlier in the film. Where did that idea originate?

It was always through the demands of the story. With the Force connections between Rey and Kylo I thought, “OK, I need to get these two talking. But if I put them face to face they’re going to either fight, or one of them has to be tied up” —

Well, they could also make out …

They could also make out! I’m going to give you a spinoff movie …

Even if they make out, then they can’t be talking. So I knew I wanted them to talk, and to talk enough to where we could go from “I hate you,” to her being forced to actually engage with him. That’s where the idea of these “Force connections” came from, which is kind of a new thing. It’s a little bit of a riff on what happens with Vader and Luke at the end of “The Empire Strikes Back,” but it’s entirely new in some regards.

I’ve got a catchy name for Rey and Kylo’s sexy “Force connection” sessions for you: “ForceTime.”

[Laughs] I’ve heard “Force Skyping,” but that’s good! I’ve got to talk to Apple. There’s a real big co-branding opportunity here.

Some of these revelatory new Force possibilities might be challenging for fans to accept. Are they such a stretch within “Star Wars” science and the greater franchise?

The truth is, because “Star Wars” until “The Force Awakens” has been set in amber and we hadn’t had a new “Star Wars” movie in 10 years, you forget that they were introducing new Force stuff with each movie, based on the requirements of the story. Force-grabbing didn’t come around until “Empire,” it wasn’t in “A New Hope.” Same with Force ghosts. They’d introduce new ideas of what could happen with the Force each time.

After the climactic battle on the salt planet Crait we learn Luke was projecting himself from his island the whole time. How does that scene rewrite the rules of the Force? Could a Force user projecting themselves physically influence the world around them, not just the minds of others?

That’s a question. When Luke shows up he’s projecting, it’s like a hardcore variation of what Kylo and Rey have been doing the whole time and that’s why it takes so much out of him. In the version that we play, no. We tried to play really, really fair. In terms of his footsteps – we removed all of his foley — there are no footstep sounds. They never touch. And if you look, the salt flakes that are falling are sparking off of Kylo’s saber and not off of Luke’s.

What about Force ghosts and the suggestion that Jedi masters wield even more previously unknown powers from beyond the grave? Can powerful Force users create physical, tangible manifestations?

The one point where we do introduce a bit of a twist in terms of Force ghosts is where Yoda calls down the lightning onto the tree. That, I think, is a tantalizing hint of the potential of someone who is a Force ghost interacting with the real world.

Hypothetically speaking, can dark Force users become Force ghosts?

I think that would be interesting. We haven’t seen them in the movies as far as I can remember. But that would be really interesting considering the dark side is about self-preservation, trying to find immortality, and the notion that the light side actually got to it through selflessness — what would the dark side version of that look like? There’s so much cool [stuff] to think about if you’re willing to open your head a little bit!

Another surprise in this film is seeing Leia use her latent Force powers after decades of being the Skywalker twin who doesn’t wield the Force. Why was that an important parting gift to give both Leia and Carrie Fisher?

That was something Kathy [Kennedy] was always asking: Why has this never manifested in Leia? She obviously made a choice, because in “Return of the Jedi” Luke tells her, “You have that power too.” I liked the idea that it’s not Luke concentrating, reaching for the lightsaber; it’s an instinctual survival thing, like when you hear stories of a parent whose toddler is caught under a car and they get superhuman strength, or a drowning person clawing their way to the surface. It’s basically just her not being done with the fight yet.

I wanted it to happen [for Carrie] and I knew it was going to be a stretch. It’s a big moment, and I’m sure it will land different ways for different people, but for me it felt like a really emotionally satisfying thing to see.

Han’s dice are a nice touch that resonates with Luke, Leia and Kylo, not to mention the fans, and a callback to how he got the Millennium Falcon in the first place.

When I wrote it, it was something that was in “The Force Awakens.” I think they shot it and didn’t end up using it: When Han comes onto the Falcon, he takes his dice out of his pocket and hangs them back up, like, “This is mine again.” When it got pulled out [of “The Force Awakens”] I thought, even if it’s not directly set up I think you’ll get it that these are Han’s dice. The notion that they get used different ways ending with Kylo, I liked.

Fans have been obsessed with Snoke’s origins since “The Force Awakens,” and while we get to know him much more in “The Last Jedi,” you don’t necessarily give that answer. Does it matter who he was?

Not in this story it doesn’t, which is not to say it wouldn’t be interesting — they might explore it in the next movie or elsewhere. I wrote this script before “The Force Awakens” came out, so when I wrote it, the “Who is Snoke?” mania hadn’t arisen with the fans yet. Even if it had, my perspective is it’s similar to how the Emperor was handled. The first three movies you know nothing about the Emperor because you don’t have to, because that’s not the story. You know exactly what you need to know. Whereas in the prequels, you know everything about him because that is the story.

In this movie, Rey doesn’t really care where he comes from, so if in any of their scenes he had stopped and done a 30-second monologue about how he is [Darth] Plagueis or whoever, Rey would have blinked and looked confused and the scene would have gone on … and we would have ended up cutting it in the editing room because it doesn’t matter to the story right now.

Why does it matter, then, who Rey’s parents are — the idea that she doesn’t come from a lineage of “special” Jedi kin?

It felt like the way to go because it’s the hardest thing that she could possibly hear. It would be the easy thing for her to be defined by, “yes, this is how you fit into this story — it’s because your parent is so and so!” In that moment, for Kylo to be able to use that [information] as a knife and twist it to try and get what he wants, felt like the most dramatically potent option.

Please explain the dramatic necessity of giving Kylo Ren a shirtless scene.

At the premiere I heard somebody in the balcony say, “Yesssss!” You can see Adam was training hardcore throughout the whole process. It’s fun but it also has a specific purpose, which is the increasing feeling of uncomfortable intimacy. That was sticking with the theme of trying to give Rey the hardest thing you could possibly give her, which would be unavoidable intimate conversation with this person that she wants to just hate. This was just one more way of upping that ante.

So … is this the first time Kylo has ever held hands with a girl?

I actually talked about that with Adam [Driver]. Adam was like, “So … have I actually kissed a girl before?” I would think maybe he has. Maybe after hours in the Jedi camp, there was a game of spin the bottle — “spin the lightsaber…”

[APlayerHater]

My thought is... why not post this in the review thread? plenty of complaining happening there.

I saw a general discussion thread, but I didn't see a 'review' thread as such.

[Ace Pace]

My thought is... why not post this in the review thread? plenty of complaining happening there.

I saw a general discussion thread, but I didn't see a 'review' thread as such.

What's the fucking difference? Lets not split conversations everywhere.

[Ace Pace]

So Rian Johnson was interviewed and answered many questions that came up here, link for anyone interested.

Han’s dice are a nice touch that resonates with Luke, Leia and Kylo, not to mention the fans, and a callback to how he got the Millennium Falcon in the first place.

When I wrote it, it was something that was in “The Force Awakens.” I think they shot it and didn’t end up using it: When Han comes onto the Falcon, he takes his dice out of his pocket and hangs them back up, like, “This is mine again.” When it got pulled out [of “The Force Awakens”] I thought, even if it’s not directly set up I think you’ll get it that these are Han’s dice. The notion that they get used different ways ending with Kylo, I liked.

We tried to play really, really fair. In terms of his footsteps – we removed all of his foley — there are no footstep sounds. They never touch. And if you look, the salt flakes that are falling are sparking off of Kylo’s saber and not off of Luke’s.

Not in this story it doesn’t, which is not to say it wouldn’t be interesting — they might explore it in the next movie or elsewhere. I wrote this script before “The Force Awakens” came out, so when I wrote it, the “Who is Snoke?” mania hadn’t arisen with the fans yet. Even if it had, my perspective is it’s similar to how the Emperor was handled. The first three movies you know nothing about the Emperor because you don’t have to, because that’s not the story. You know exactly what you need to know. Whereas in the prequels, you know everything about him because that is the story.

In this movie, Rey doesn’t really care where he comes from, so if in any of their scenes he had stopped and done a 30-second monologue about how he is [Darth] Plagueis or whoever, Rey would have blinked and looked confused and the scene would have gone on … and we would have ended up cutting it in the editing room because it doesn’t matter to the story right now.

It felt like the way to go because it’s the hardest thing that she could possibly hear. It would be the easy thing for her to be defined by, “yes, this is how you fit into this story — it’s because your parent is so and so!” In that moment, for Kylo to be able to use that [information] as a knife and twist it to try and get what he wants, felt like the most dramatically potent option.

[amigocabal]

So Rian Johnson was interviewed and answered many questions that came up here, link for anyone interested.

Han’s dice are a nice touch that resonates with Luke, Leia and Kylo, not to mention the fans, and a callback to how he got the Millennium Falcon in the first place.

When I wrote it, it was something that was in “The Force Awakens.” I think they shot it and didn’t end up using it: When Han comes onto the Falcon, he takes his dice out of his pocket and hangs them back up, like, “This is mine again.” When it got pulled out [of “The Force Awakens”] I thought, even if it’s not directly set up I think you’ll get it that these are Han’s dice. The notion that they get used different ways ending with Kylo, I liked.

We tried to play really, really fair. In terms of his footsteps – we removed all of his foley — there are no footstep sounds. They never touch. And if you look, the salt flakes that are falling are sparking off of Kylo’s saber and not off of Luke’s.

Not in this story it doesn’t, which is not to say it wouldn’t be interesting — they might explore it in the next movie or elsewhere. I wrote this script before “The Force Awakens” came out, so when I wrote it, the “Who is Snoke?” mania hadn’t arisen with the fans yet. Even if it had, my perspective is it’s similar to how the Emperor was handled. The first three movies you know nothing about the Emperor because you don’t have to, because that’s not the story. You know exactly what you need to know. Whereas in the prequels, you know everything about him because that is the story.

In this movie, Rey doesn’t really care where he comes from, so if in any of their scenes he had stopped and done a 30-second monologue about how he is [Darth] Plagueis or whoever, Rey would have blinked and looked confused and the scene would have gone on … and we would have ended up cutting it in the editing room because it doesn’t matter to the story right now.

It felt like the way to go because it’s the hardest thing that she could possibly hear. It would be the easy thing for her to be defined by, “yes, this is how you fit into this story — it’s because your parent is so and so!” In that moment, for Kylo to be able to use that [information] as a knife and twist it to try and get what he wants, felt like the most dramatically potent option.

Ruan Johnson could have added a brief line of how Snoke once hunted the Jedi under Darth Vader. It would have been sufficient to explain his background- and his contempt gor Kylo Ren's hero worship.

[Imperial528]

Just got back from seeing it a few hours ago. General thoughts, spoilered to condense them:
Spoiler

I liked Rey's plotline. It was quite satisfying and had nice twists. Only thing I disliked is that this film seemed to edge towards the "gray is balance" idea of the Force, contradicting the OT, but we'll see how that turns out.

Finn and Rose's adventure was absolutely useless, terribly executed, and Poe's motivation for sending them on it was stupid. Holdo withholding vital information from her crew was foolish.

The cruiser chase was bad enough, but having it last literally the entire film drew the tension out far too long.

The behavior of Finn and Rose during their sidequest was childish. Not at all conduct I would expect from a former stormtrooper and an experienced resistance member. Worse, the successes and failures of their entire mission came down to luck: If they hadn't been locked in a cell with that hacker, they'd have sat out the entire film in jail. Probably better that way, really. Then most of the resistance wouldn't have died helplessly in their transports.

Force power creep among experienced Force users doesn't bother me that much. The random kid at the end being able to use Force telekinesis was just plain dumb. The only prior feats of untrained telekinesis was Luke on Hoth, requiring great effort and being in a life threatening situation, and Rey in TFA during the duel with Kylo. And while I did not like Rey seemingly do it so easily, she is at least an adult who became aware she had potent ability in the Force, and in TLJ is at least established to have great potential.

During the opening scenes of the film I had hoped that Blue Leader would develop as a character in her own right, the way Wedge did in the OT. Instead she and the entire resistance fighter squadron gets wiped out inside their own hangar. Frankly a lot of characters in this movie were just thrown out to die, wasted as it were.

I liked the lightspeed ramming. I did not find it at all believable that anyone near the site of it survived. That entire section of the Supremacy would have been bathed in high energy radiation, plus secondary radiation effects around the site from bremsstrahlung. I don't quite expect the writers to have known that, but at the least, the pressure wave inside the hangar and the fireball would've been potent enough, brief as they would be, and that's something everyone can wrap their head around.

I did not like Phasma essentially being relegated to dying(?) as some sort of low level boss. Again, character wasted.

On the topic of ship shielding, I find it interesting that the First Order fighters were able to pass through the cruiser's shields at will, but Finn and Rose had to disable a section of the Supremacy's shields to get aboard. Likely each ship has different types of shielding optimized for different purposes. Given the Rebellion and the Resistance's reliance on light craft it doesn't surprise me that the Supremacy's designers may have opted for different or additional shielding systems that prevents fighters from crossing.

Finally, some minor inconsistencies:

After the ramming, there aren't any bodies of dead stormtroopers strewn about near Finn and Rose, let alone any surviving ones. It's possible they all got blasted elsewhere, and that only Finn and Rose survived from that area, but I find that unlikely just from the sheer number of stormtroopers present.

During Kylo Ren's fight with Luke, initially they are on bare salt, but then during the fight they end up on the snow again despite not moving outside of the area that was bombarded.

TL;DR:

Overall I liked the film. But it felt like half of it was written by a good writer, and half of it was written as a composite from fanfiction.net.

[Nephtys]

This seems the fundamental difference.

People who dislike TLJ because it didn't explain snoke, didn't give Rey magic parents, didn't provide a detailed background on the new republic, or the Jedi have different power levels--- are trying to fit it in the old EU type of writing. Where everything is set up to be about as detailed as an RPG setting.

Snoke could have said 'I once hunted Jedi as part of blah blah'. But what does that do? It just wastes time, disrupts the narrative, and diminishes him as a character that ONCE AGAIN is only important because he was Palpatine's room mate at some point, or once loaned money to Porkins.

In the world of TLJ, He's just the Supreme Leader. He's got force magic, and he wants very badly to kill Skywalker who is a potential huge threat to him. What was his role? To be background to accentuate the development of the central character: Kylo Ren. How did he tempt Kylo? Doesn't matter. It may even have just been a minor red herring. The real fuckup was Luke's all along.

That's why I like TLJ a hell of a lot. It's /better/ than a lot of trash we've come to expect from Star Wars, such as the entire EU that is nothing but derivative coat-hanging on the OT, that diminishes the storytelling potential of the universe, not increasing it.

---

Bit of an anecdote: I was having lunch with an old coworker, who spent the last few years doing concept and design for Star Wars games for EA. We griped that Star Wars at the end of the day, had no space for creativity. Bad guys? They're Imperial dudes in the same uniforms, flying Triagles and having TIES of some variety. Good guys? Multiethnic, yet attractive rugged people wearing a small assortment of outdoors jackets. See that Twi'lek? She strips at least part time. Is that alien red? About 50/50 chance of being evil, and is probably also yet another bad guy with a red lightsaber that holds it slightly different.

Good base? A concrete hallway from an old mine, with some pipes and computers. Bad guy base? Black shiny plastic hallway with the same lighting fixtures as the Death Star.

This 'I am only comfortable with what I am familiar with' nonsense lead to Star Wars being shit and staying shit for years. Let's not do this.

[Galvatron]

At the very least, there's fertile ground for the EU to tell Snoke's definitive backstory. That's assuming, of course, that Abrams doesn't have any plans for him in the future.

[GuppyShark]

I still don't understand how there's an entire discussion tangent about the way the Resistance bombers dropped their bombs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phGlo_TNDp0

There's a difference between "our heavy fighter can be equipped with a bomb armament for situational use" and "we have invested in a wing of craft which only work in a gravity well and can attack only from one vector."

EDIT: The prequels also brought us seismic charges and missiles that splinter into buzzsaw-equipped drones, so unconventional munitions are not new.

[KraytKing]

That's why I like TLJ a hell of a lot. It's /better/ than a lot of trash we've come to expect from Star Wars, such as the entire EU that is nothing but derivative coat-hanging on the OT, that diminishes the storytelling potential of the universe, not increasing it.

You dislike repetition of the OT, but you like the carbon-copy of Hoth with bigger walkers, higher stakes, and shittier speeders? What did you think of the Royal Guard? How about TFA and its bigger Death Star with the same weakness? The outcast Force-user with mysterious parents from a desert world? These new films have been nothing but recycled shots from the original trilogy with half-assed attempts at an new plot thrown in. And dumb shit leadership.

[Kurgan]

Weren't "Han's dice" just gold colored standard six sided earth dice with the dot patterns on the faces, not this weird glyph stuff? Holy Aurabesh, Batman... what is this revisionism??

[ray245]

This seems the fundamental difference.

People who dislike TLJ because it didn't explain snoke, didn't give Rey magic parents, didn't provide a detailed background on the new republic, or the Jedi have different power levels--- are trying to fit it in the old EU type of writing. Where everything is set up to be about as detailed as an RPG setting.

Snoke could have said 'I once hunted Jedi as part of blah blah'. But what does that do? It just wastes time, disrupts the narrative, and diminishes him as a character that ONCE AGAIN is only important because he was Palpatine's room mate at some point, or once loaned money to Porkins.

In the world of TLJ, He's just the Supreme Leader. He's got force magic, and he wants very badly to kill Skywalker who is a potential huge threat to him. What was his role? To be background to accentuate the development of the central character: Kylo Ren. How did he tempt Kylo? Doesn't matter. It may even have just been a minor red herring. The real fuckup was Luke's all along.

That's why I like TLJ a hell of a lot. It's /better/ than a lot of trash we've come to expect from Star Wars, such as the entire EU that is nothing but derivative coat-hanging on the OT, that diminishes the storytelling potential of the universe, not increasing it.

I think some of these fans looked at these issues from an RPG-like perspective, not all. However, there are narrative reasons why they are problematic as well.

It's not that there is a lack of any information, it's trying to do world-building in a fairly consistent manner so that the storytelling doesn't feel contrived. Why should different Jedi have a different level of abilities? Well, it makes sense to show how one Jedi can be better than the other Jedi in terms of skill. We understand that there are limits to different Jedi's abilities and etc.

Snoke's history is important because it informs the viewers how things became so bad during the "missing" years. The sequel trilogy is a sequel to the old films, so people are naturally curious about the fate of the older characters. People are invested in hoping Luke and Co can build a much safer Galaxy than the old Republic. That the new Jedi order under Luke could have avoided the mistakes of the past.

Look, if the ST movies are only about Rey, Finn, and Poe, set 100 years after ROTJ, no one would give a shit about Snoke's lack of backstory. The problem is the ST movies are ALSO about the conclusion to Luke's, Han's and Leia's story. That's part of the appeal and the hype for the ST movies. Disney marketed these new movies as the final chance to see the old cast again. People want to see Luke, Han and Leia succeed in building the Galaxy they wanted, and hopefully, they can retire in peace after all of their accomplishment.

[Knife]

This seems the fundamental difference.

People who dislike TLJ because it didn't explain snoke, didn't give Rey magic parents, didn't provide a detailed background on the new republic, or the Jedi have different power levels--- are trying to fit it in the old EU type of writing. Where everything is set up to be about as detailed as an RPG setting.

No!

Search my history. I'm hardly an EU fan. When they announced a new trilogy, I was more than happy to scream "throw it all away" regarding the EU.

Snoke could have said 'I once hunted Jedi as part of blah blah'. But what does that do? It just wastes time, disrupts the narrative, and diminishes him as a character that ONCE AGAIN is only important because he was Palpatine's room mate at some point, or once loaned money to Porkins.

In the world of TLJ, He's just the Supreme Leader. He's got force magic, and he wants very badly to kill Skywalker who is a potential huge threat to him. What was his role? To be background to accentuate the development of the central character: Kylo Ren. How did he tempt Kylo? Doesn't matter. It may even have just been a minor red herring. The real fuckup was Luke's all along.

That's why I like TLJ a hell of a lot. It's /better/ than a lot of trash we've come to expect from Star Wars, such as the entire EU that is nothing but derivative coat-hanging on the OT, that diminishes the storytelling potential of the universe, not increasing it.

What is does is either set up a plot hole or turn him into a 2D cutout. Either is bad.

Yes, yes. Palpatine wasn't explained either... except thematically he was the dark sorcerer to Vader's fallen black knight, in a new word of story telling. Snoke comes 30 years after all that, so either he was part of Palpatine's thing (which requires some explanation) or he is a cheesy knock off, which is bad. If he is old enough to be this powerful and influence Kylo Ren and be somewhat of a threat to Luke, he's old enough to have existed in the Empire. It's a glaring problem to the world we know. It's a problem. Or, he's a shitty cardboard cutout of the old bad guys and still it's shitty writing.

You've been trying to defend this for some time now. Either we don't know who he is, in context of what we know of JUST the movies, makes no sense. Or... he's a knock off and 2 dimensional cut out of the Emperor and that's shitty writing.

[Knife]

Everything below here is spoilers: Fair Warning.

People have pointed out the many flaws to this movie in another thread, but I thought I'd dedicate a whole thread solely to complaining about this movie.

I guess people could also defend the movie if they wanted to. I'm not going to bother doing any "I told you so"s to any Rey defenders about her being a Mary Sue. I mean, she still is, arguably even more so than before (where did she learn to swim?), but she's hardly the worst thing in this movie.

My personal disappointments:

I'm going into this blind. I may or may not agree with you. Though, as a overall sense, I did not like the movie.

No Jedi Training:

• Having Rey master every force ability in TFA with zero training just created a scenario in this movie where Luke has nothing to teach her. I honestly think if the writers or director of this movie could think of a single lesson for Luke to teach Rey, they would have thrown it in this movie. The only thing Rey learns in this film is sword techniques... Which I guess she just figures out on her own by swinging at a rock for about 10 hours.

Yes and no, in my opinion. The movie goes out of it's way to show Rey had some training at some point in Melee combat. Her swinging her staff about at the rock is regimented and in my opinion meant to show she was following a training regimen of some sort with her staff. Granted, sword fighting and staff training are different, but basic 'melee' training is more than Luke Skywalker had and while Ben Kenobi gave him a few hours of on the Falcon, you really don't see Yoda give him.

I'll give this one to Rey and the writers. They tried.

Next time we see her pick up a lightsaber, she beats Luke in a stick-fighting duel. Then the next time she picks up a lightsaber she takes on 10 master swordsmen. To my knowledge jedi train for decades to master swordsmanship, but screw it; let's just dumb everything down for plot convenience. You could say Luke never trained with a lightsaber, but he also lost his 1 fight in TESB, had his hand chopped off, and Vader wasn't even trying to kill him.

Yeah, I agree. If Rey is naturally strong in the Force, then show her just having raw power. When Snoke lays her flat with Force long-time push, or what ever you want to call it, should have been her move. If she is soooooo strong in the Force but has shit for training, her moves should be just that. Sloppy force pushes that take 3-5 dudes off their feet, smashes walls and computers and shit. Vaders scene in ROTS at the end comes to mind where he just crushes shit on instinct or reflex.

Her able to defend against obviously trained swordsmen or weapons experts as guards is asinine.

All we learn about the force in this movie is that it's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds and penetrates us and binds the galaxy together... So more rehashing.[/list]

It teased some 'balance of the Force' shit and failed to deliver. I'm disappointed at it for just that.

Power Creep:

• Just like in TFA, there's a massive power creep in what force users can do. Ever since Disney took over, it seems like they have no idea how to make the movie exciting except to just make the new characters more powerful.
  
  Vader was able to choke someone on his own ship, using the TV screen to eyeball where the guy was on it. Now Snoke can pick you up and throw you around from a hyperspace jump away like it's no big deal.
  
  Snoke can totally immobilize other force users and throw them around, while simultaneously reading their minds. He can also use Sith lightning; I'd ask how he learned such a power, but we've already established you no longer need to be taught force powers; you just pick them when you level up.
  
  Master Yoda had to focus, close his eyes, and slowly lift an X Wing out of a lake. Similarly, Yoda had to focus to deflect a tiny amount of rocks dropped on him by Dooku. Rey can casually pick up many tons of rocks with a simple thought.
  
  Yoda summons a lightning bolt.
  
  Force astral projection to another planet light years away.
  
  Snoke's Mind-Linking powers and (apparently) long-ranged Kylo-Corrupting powers, that somehow corrupted Kylo at Jedi Academy. Unless Snoke was an Alex-Jones-type alternative news anchor I have no idea how he could have corrupted Kylo without having met him. Unless Snoke was just hanging out near the Jedi academy in his sexy silk robe, selling the kids cigarettes.

Not sure I agree, though I do think it was by writers fiat some of the time.

Raw power is raw power, reflex. That would have been nice. Concentration, order, control is just that. Yoda showing that is fine.

This Movie is a Mash-Up of TESB and RotJ, but with the scenes rearranged in random order:

• This movie begins with the space-battle portion of the battle of Hoth, with ships fleeing a planet while orbital bombardment destroys a rebel base.

Totally agree. A wink and a nod is nice, straight up reshooting scenes is shitty writing and bad movie making.

It then becomes the part of TESB where Han and Leia have a deactivated hyperdrive and are trying to evade the Empire. Except it's now just Leia fleeing the Empire and they can't use the Hyperdrive because plot. To be fair, the hyperdrive has never worked in any of these movies.

Let alone I watched this in the Clone Wars for 3 episodes years ago.

Rose and Finn then go to Casino Planet (Cloud City) to get help to escape the empire (using a ship with a working hyperdrive to escape. One wonders why all the resistance members didn't just pile into different transports and hyperdrive in different directions. Or you could have sent Rose and Finn ahead to the secret base to send out the distress signal... Or just have Rose and Finn fly off somewhere in the galaxy to get a distress signal out... Or send all those ships on autopilot to hyperspace ram Snoke's ship...).
--Anyway, Rose and Finn go to get someones help and are also betrayed to the empire by the person they asked for help. So, you know, same difference. Sicario Guy is Lando.

Not sure I'd call him Lando, but yes, this whole bit is soooooooooooo bad.

Rey goes to a secluded planet in the middle of nowhere to meet a hermit Jedi-Master and be trained in the ways of the force, just like Luke. Like Yoda, Luke refuses to train Leia at first until convinced by a ghost to do so. Rey leaves to go track down Kylo against the advice of Luke (like Luke in Empire), although in this movie it's not to save her friends with the resistance (I guess since she's known about the resistance for about... 2 hours now), but just because she's now Kylo's friend or something; she didn't seem to care about the Resistance ships getting blown up until Snoke pointed it out to her.

All in all I didn't mind the Luke/Rey scenes, they were a bit boring, really didn't accomplish anything, but there weren't bad per say.

There is a throne room scene basically identical to the one in RotJ. Rey willingly surrenders to TFA just like Luke to the Empire. They take an elevator up to the throne room. Snoke shows Rey the fleet being destroyed and tells her the rebellion will be wiped out, but she refuses to yield so Snoke renders her helpless and is about to kill her. Snoke is then betrayed by his pupil; although in this movie it's not because Rey has brought out the goodness in Kylo and made him realize that he was wrong, but because they're friends now or something.[/quote

Indeed, it was bad.

Finn and the gang go to a snow planet, but it's salt so it's not snow; it just looks the same and there are imperial walkers there trying to take out a rebel base, and the heroes have to go out in little ships to fight the walkers. At least in Empire they had a plan, in this movie they just ride out on their little ships that don't have any weapons, and accomplish nothing. They don't even slow down the empire in setting up their stupid laser battering ram, they accomplish nothing in this scene. These characters could have just stayed in doors and had some kind of character-building moment or something, waiting for death... Or we could have used this time in the movie to put some Luke/Rey training in. This scene is pointless.

Indeed, bad and pointless and has nothing to do with anything. It could have been deleted and the movie's outcome is the same.

Luke then appears and walks outside to sacrifice himself and buy more time for his friends to escape, dueling his old Padawan to prevent Kylo from walking through a door, just like Obi Wan. Luke then ceases to exist and become one with the force after distracting Kylo with a sword fight for a few seconds... To be fair, this was a scene from ANH that they're ripping off.

I'm of two minds. I don't really mind the ... mind fuck. But to have Luke die because of it was dumb. It's right up there with Cpt Kirk being killed falling off a shitty little bridge.

The film then ends with a little slave boy looking off at the stars and showing us he has force powers, and a rebellion-branded ring, which was probably a McDonalds Happy Meal tie-in or something.[/list]

Didn't mind that, hope for the younger generation has been a good theme all through the series.

Yoda Puppet Looked Terrible:

• The Yoda Puppet was awful, the lightning summoning was silly (accomplished nothing anyway, which is the theme of this movie.) The Yoda Puppet seems more puppetlike than the original; they wanted you to know this was a puppet. His cane-motions are exaggerated when he walks, just so you know for a 'fact' that there is someone under the frame, moving that cane and carrying the puppet along with an exaggerated bobbing motion. It looks like someone doing an impression of the way Yoda moves.
  
  Yoda's face is stuck in this super chubby-cheeked smile, his mouth barely flaps and it looks like a nutcracker while doing so, and his forehead is completely sunken in. Also he's this super extreme shade of green, although that could be due to the blue ghost FX they used.
  
  Yoda's voice sounds terrible and his personality is wrong. I know it's Frank Oz, but he sounds like someone doing a bad impression of Yoda. The character even acts like a doofus, despite Yoda only ever acting silly as a way of testing Luke on Dago bah and hiding his identity. Every time after that in Empire and Jedi, he never cracks any jokes. Also he uses the phrase "page-turner," like this 900 year old dead jedi is throwing around jokes we'd use in 2017.
  
  Why does Yoda suddenly think the Jedi suck as well? What? --I guess he must have known the tree was empty, so maybe he doesn't. Who knows.

Agreed. Yoda was wasted and bad in this.

Wasted Potential:

Is the actual title of the movie. SW: the Wasted Potential. SWTWP.

[Galvatron]

I wrote this script before “The Force Awakens” came out, so when I wrote it, the “Who is Snoke?” mania hadn’t arisen with the fans yet.

This seems like a massive problem to me. I'm not saying they should let the audience reaction dictate entirely how the story goes, but I do think it's stupid and shortsighted for them to completely disregard it. However, since Abrams made his story pitch for Episode IX after the release of TLJ, it doesn't appear to be Lucasfilm's standard operating procedure anymore.

[Nephtys]

That's why I like TLJ a hell of a lot. It's /better/ than a lot of trash we've come to expect from Star Wars, such as the entire EU that is nothing but derivative coat-hanging on the OT, that diminishes the storytelling potential of the universe, not increasing it.

You dislike repetition of the OT, but you like the carbon-copy of Hoth with bigger walkers, higher stakes, and shittier speeders? What did you think of the Royal Guard? How about TFA and its bigger Death Star with the same weakness? The outcast Force-user with mysterious parents from a desert world? These new films have been nothing but recycled shots from the original trilogy with half-assed attempts at an new plot thrown in. And dumb shit leadership.

A lot of those motifs are pretty damn repetitive, it's true. But perhaps part of it was the fake-out. Second Hoth set up at least the interesting visual of the red salt and was only really there to have Luke fade into the sunset and save the day one last time (and draw his closure with Kylo). It'd have been better if it was a different set-up, it's true.

Starkiller Base was dumb, Jakku was dumb (Although ScrapWorld is pretty cool), and so-on. The Royal Guard were actually fine: They're obviously a throw-back to the trappings of the Empire, but they had a role and fought our heroes in a fairly exciting scene that really was the emotional climax of the movie. I'd have preferred if Kylo killing Snoke was a little less telegraphed (ie, don't show the lightsabre moving) for maximum shock, to question 'Woah, is he redeeming himself?' even moreso. I suppose the issues of Second Hoth also was that it further highlighted the pointlessness of directly confronting the First Order, since even if Finn blew up the beam, it would only have delayed the inevitable.

As for closer to the old cast--- well. Everyone had pretty great closure at the end of ROTJ, and about 15-20 years of things going pretty great for them. Which is fine. That's a thematic closure. This one was closure for Luke: He learned a lesson in the end that yeah, he was both right in that the galaxy didn't need Luke Skywalker, Jedi Legend to save them... and wrong, in that the he could save people one last time both physically, and by creating a different legend, mirroring Kenobi.

I suppose I liked the motifs and character stuff more than the setpeices specifically. I suppose one other factor is that I do think that 'not giving the audience exactly what they want' is better storytelling. Since the logical 'this is what I want' is exactly the EU path for these characters, of Han and Leia being together and politicians with good guy kids, and Superintendant Luke successfully running Hogwarts.

[Ave Dominus Nox]

Bad movie, bad star wars movie... Jesus Christ this movie grabbed the idoit ball and held on. Sorry this is going to be hate filled.

Ok so now we are confirmed that the Republic fell like a rotting house when the door was kicked in.

The Poe and Hux dialogue while funny doesn't belong in the movie unless your creating a Saturday morning cartoon. Also do dreadnoughts not have shields, and why would you have bombers that physically need to drop something... in Space!!! Why not torpedo bombers like Y-Wings or B-Wings. Also why are the rest of the Star Destroyers just sitting their jacking off. Seriously that was the most anti-climatic space battle ever. Seriously I cannot get over how stupid the bombers were, seriously who would ever design something like that for SPACE combat.

Moving from the opening stupidity we know the First Order is weeks away from conquering every important system in the galaxy, but was afraid of a Fleet orbiting what... 5 systems? How big is the Order supposed to be to be worried about that and yet be able to steam roll the galaxy? Seriously does no-one have a planetary defense force, was the whole of the Republic fleet sitting above those Five-ish Planets. How the hell would you even police a galaxy let alone defend it with so small a force. Hell one of the reasons the Separatist crisis emerged was because the Old Republic could't police the old Republic and enforce its laws. In the OT it made sense to see small concentrations of ships. The Rebellion was a tiny group fighting against a massive empire holding down the galaxy. As for the Empire, one they were holding down the galaxy and ,two, its a big place the rebellion could be anywhere. The only time we needed to see fleets was at Endor where the Rebels brought their entire fleet, which was still relatively small, and the Imperial Fleet, again relatively small, present was one that could be moved without anyone noticing.

Ok, for the flight from the Resistance base... really they're running out of gas? I realize I let my car run until the light comes on before I refuel it, but that's a really bad idea for a military or quasi military organization. Or are they suggesting they had no fuel reserves because that's like a big thing. I mean this movie takes place moments have Force Awakens so its not like the burnt it up fighting and they couldn't have used it up fleeing. Hell we've seen ships fly across the galaxy without refueling, Vader's fleet crusided around the Rim without a replenishment ship... unless the Executor carried fuel for her little sisters, but that's never come up before. So apparently they were sitting around on "E" because they're... dumb.

Do they still use Hypermatter as fuel btw because doesn't that shit last like forever?

So them running from the First Order fleet this started off good... apart from the forgetting to fuel the ships... the attack when it first emerged was cool, though again the Star Destroyers sitting around and jacking off was dumb. The fighter combat was cool though why couldn't we have had another, maybe good, space battle? Snoke's ship was interesting but from everything we've heard its a factory ship not a combat ship. Though I'll give them props for at least giving it a sizable escort. Also don't Star Destroyer have like a hundred guns, why do we only ever see like one or two shots?

When they blew up the bridge I was super impressed... that would have been a good death for Princess Leia and really you could have given the rest of her lines to the Vice Admiral whoever, but then they blew it. I mean really, Leia can survive being spaced... we've never had any indication that she's had force raising let alone enough to SURVIVE IN THE VACUUM OF SPACE and then pull herself back into the ship however minutes later. Also now we know you have shields while the hell weren’t they on before the fighters came... seriously do shields only matter when its relevant to the plot?

Also Ackbar died... I did realize it was even him until Poe said something... kinda a demotion there admiral went from the Admiral of the entire rebel fleet to... six ships?

Casino planet is... meh though it does bring up a rather stupid plot hole. So the rich people are arms dealers or mostly arms dealers so apparently they're are no rich shipping magnates, actors, sports players, whatever, but OK I assume she was generalizing. Selling guns, however, to a war machine capable of overrunning the galaxy in weeks... really? I mean if would understandable if this was a small terrorist like group, but a war machine of this size? Even if she was talking about the Arms Industry I still don't buy it. I mean if that's the case a galaxy-conquering war machine was built without anyone knowing it and how they hell did the First Order pay for it? No one got sucpsions when someone was doing R&D for new Star Destroyers or TIE fighters? Seriously they couldn't have gone with secret shipyards in the Unknown Regions built by the Empire prior to its fall?

The fall of the Jedi Temple... I kinda like the idea of Luke being so afraid of releasing another Darth Vader that he'd consider drastic actions only to decide against it and for Ren to misunderstand. Its kinda of a cliche, but hey its a reason why he's so broken. But again really, Kylo Ren thought he killed Luke... shouldn’t there have been a massive galaxy shaking disturbance if Luke Skywalker, Jedi Grand Master died. Did he not check physically or use the Force to check that's seems lazy, especially if you believe the guy wants to kill you. Also where did he meet Snoke? He's not a guy that can really blend in.

Luke's "let the Jedi End" was weak. I mean really as long as they're are Sith or other Dark Side equivalents they're has to be someone to fight. Luke's entire attitude struck me as moral cowardice. I realize he was a broken man, but still saying 'let the galaxy burn' is bad. The only way to really win and end the Dark-light squabble is to take Kreia's route and murder the Force itself... though the consequences might be... dire. Also the Force now is trippy and Yoda came back to tell Luke Rey is awesome, not when he ran away, not when he abandoned the Galaxy to the Dark Side, not to suck it up and go fight the good fight, but to tell Luke how awesome Rey is. Whatever happen to show don't tell.

Now to the female Vice-Admiral who apparently decided to wear formal wear while a member of the Resistance and a Second Galactic Civil War is starting. Did you not have time to change and look professional? Were you at all ball or cocktail party... or with dinosaurs? How many Admirals are in this six-ish ship fleet anyway? Also the disrespect she gives Poe, who at this point is most likely the senior pilot officer and the defacto Wing Commander, is astounding. Yes he disobeyed orders, but seriously praise in public, criticize in private... where the hell did she get her admiral's bars? We later learn this was because they (writers) were setting up the big reveal of a planet that's apparently not on any maps and apparently their sensors can't detect? Even then all she would of had to do is tell Poe, one of her most senior officers, this and it would have ended the issue. Instead she tells him to have hope... hope is not a plan lady, hope is wishful thinking. Hell she could have said "trust me there is a plan" instead of giving off the vibe that they're was none but no have hope because hope is more powerful then star destroyers.

Rehash of RotJ throne room scene.

God that was cringy... like bad fan fiction levels levels of cringy. Most of the Rey/Kylo stuff is OK and even good but Snoke is just... the Emperor but not the Emperor. Also creating a Force bond across lightyears... and fucking with Ren's emotions to deceive Rey, ok, but then how can you then not realize that Ren is going to betray you. Hell you can only kick the dog so often and to make it worse couldn't it have been more telegraphed for the audience. The fight with the Red, totally not Imperial, Guard was ok, but I think both Rey and Rentend to forget they have Force powers well they'd really be useful. To give them credit I was ecstatic that Kylo Ren wasn't redeemed, that would have been too much. Kinda disappointed Rey didn't join him, not that I expected her too. Also side note I kinda want them to screw now, is that weird. I think they have odd but good chemistry.

Also Snoke is dead... all that build up, all that mystery for what totally not surprising surprise and funny face joke?

The destruction of the Supremacy was a cool shot, but kinda dumb. I mean if its that easily why not rig up remote control ships and just jump them into others. You created another plot hole that didn't a have to be there. Also I don't think that's how hyperspace works. You are in a different "dimension" or something... I mean you have to watch out for planets and other celestial bodies because they cast mass shadows. Also the MonCal ship waited a long time before turning while her shuttles got shot up. I thought she was going to turn and engage which would have been cool-ish and a little more dramatic... also Phasma died... ok why did we need her back?

The crystal planet... seriously guys that was a fucking horrible plan if they even had one. I mean there are what like 100ish members left and they threw away how many? Also what the hell were they flying... salt surfing skimmers that can kinda maybe fly when needed. If they can fly why didn't a few fly up to fight the TIEs? Christ that was stupid and also why did the Asian lady stop Fynn from where I was sitting it probably would have worked and prevented the breach... wasn't that the point? What did all the redshirts die for then? If I want to watch the Battle of Hoth I can watch Empire

Astral/Force projection over lightyears? I mean it is Luke Skywalker and he is on a Force nexus so... Ok. The fight was Ok too though I wonder what made Kylo Ren think he could take Luke Skywalker. You can't beat the lady who STILL hasn't had a minute of actual light-saber or a real Force training session and you think you can beat the guy who beat Darth Vader? I mean this is Luke fucking Skywalker

Luke's death was meh. I mean he allowed the Resistance to escape so... yeah, but come on that's how he dies, a heart attack or something from strain?

So at the end of the movie... where back at episode III ending. Evil Empire controls the galaxy, how I have no idea, and new plucky band of rebels is forming to fight the First Order. God, people is this what we waited for... a worse ripoff of the OT, at least the prequels did something new, they expanded the universe and told an original story. Worse even this invalidates everything the original Rebellion fought for. After less that thirty years the Republic they struggled and bled and died to restore fell apart at the first whiff of trouble. If's that's not a betrayal...

I wanted to like this movie... I wanted to like the Force Awakens but I can't... its, it's, its... bad.

The way I look at it the prequels were a failing of execution not of story. The story was largely there, but how they brought it to life was flawed. If you look beyond bad dialogue and poor acting the Prequels are one of the greatest tragedies in fiction. Beyond the Tragedy of Darth Vader it was the fall of the Old Republic, the Republic that has stood for ten thousand years, as a beacon of light in the darkness, of civilization and the ideal that all the species of the galaxy can come and work together as equals. Is it perfect? No. No system or government is, but it was something truly grand. In the end the Republic was brought low not through barbarian invasions or outside threats but by the weakness of those who should have strengthen it. By the failings and the corruption of the organs of government to the blindness of its greatest guardians to perhaps worst of all to the apathy of the common people who allowed democracy to die. The story and the potential greatness is there behind the flaws; which is something I thought the existing EU now legends allowed to come to the fore.

The new trilogy, or at least the first two movies, are not good stories.

[GuppyShark]

I agree with you on most counts, but what the fuck are you doing judging Holdo by her attire? I don't even remember what she wore, I was too busy trying to figure out if Poe was right or not.

[streetad]

I think the worst thing about Luke's arc is - even if he has decided that the Jedi has to end and that he won't train anybody else ever , shouldn't he at least put down the mad dog he unleashed on the galaxy first? I mean even Obi Wan tried to do that...

The Holdo plot was clearly a standard 'don't judge someone by their appearance' plot. It was just badly executed since she had no good reason to withhold the information she did so she comes across as just as incompetent as everyone else.

[streetad]

Double post

[Abacus]

I agree with you on most counts, but what the fuck are you doing judging Holdo by her attire? I don't even remember what she wore, I was too busy trying to figure out if Poe was right or not.

When her character first appeared on screen, after being introduced as "Vice Admiral Holdo", my literal first thought was: "Why isn't she in uniform?". Apparently this is explained away by a side book story where she was a dignitary, like Leia was, in their younger days. So she must have been away from the Resistance base at the time of the events of TFA; but comes back in time for the evacuation. It's not really a good reason in my book, but eh.

And yeah, it was a tiny beef to have with her character compared to the other things the writers did with her.

[Abacus]

Also, there were seven months between Carrie Fisher's death to the time when they finished filming for TLJ (Dec. 2016 vs July 2016).

Why this is important to me is that they could have easily enough killed off Leia (having her take Holdo's place in hypering into the Supremacy), and allowed Holdo (a new character) to step up and lead the Resistance. If I ever wondered just how much Rian Johnson hates JJ Abrams, this is what proved it to me. This is the ultimate fuck you to any director that followed up after him for the main trilogy. "Haha, fuck you - go have fun playing in this uncanny valley."