Texas Church Shooting

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Texas Church Shooting

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New York Times
Texas Church Shooting Leaves at Least 26 Dead, Officials Say

By DAVID MONTGOMERY, CHRISTOPHER MELE and MANNY FERNANDEZ
NOV. 5, 2017

SUTHERLAND SPRINGS, Tex. — A gunman clad in all black, with a ballistic vest strapped to his chest and a military-style rifle in his hands, opened fire on parishioners at a Sunday service at a small Baptist church in rural Texas, killing at least 26 people and turning this tiny town east of San Antonio into the scene of the country’s newest mass horror.

The gunman was identified as Devin Patrick Kelley, 26, according to two law enforcement officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the investigation is continuing. Mr. Kelley, who lived in New Braunfels, Tex., and had served in the Air Force at a base in New Mexico, died shortly after the attack.

The motive of the attack was unclear on Sunday, but the grisly nature of it could not have been clearer: families gathered in pews, clutching Bibles and praying to the Lord, were murdered in cold blood on the spot.

Mr. Kelley started firing at the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs not long after the Sunday morning service began at 11 a.m., officials said. He was armed with a Ruger military-style rifle, and within minutes, many of those inside the small church were either dead or wounded. The victims ranged in age from 5 to 72, and among the dead were several children, a pregnant woman and the pastor’s 14-year-old daughter. It was the deadliest mass shooting in the state’s history. At least 20 more were wounded.

“It’s something we all say does not happen in small communities, although we found out today it does,” said Joe Tackitt, the sheriff of Wilson County, which includes Sutherland Springs.

Sheriff Tackitt and other officials said the gunman first stopped at a gas station across Highway 87 from the church. He drove across the street, got out of his car and began firing from the outside, moving to the right side of the church, the authorities said. Then he entered the building and kept firing.

The authorities received their first call about a gunman at about 11:20 a.m.. Officials and witnesses said Mr. Kelley appeared to be prepared for an assault, with black tactical gear, multiple rounds of ammunition and a ballistic vest.

“He went there, he walked in, started shooting people and then took off,” said Representative Henry Cuellar, a Texas congressman who represents the region and who was briefed by law enforcement officials.

When Mr. Kelley emerged from the church, an armed neighbor exchanged gunfire with him, hitting Mr. Kelley, who fled in his vehicle. Neighbors apparently followed him, chasing him into the next county, Guadalupe County, where Mr. Kelley crashed his car. Mr. Kelley was found dead in his vehicle. Officials said it was unclear how Mr. Kelley had died.

At the church, he left behind a scene of carnage. Of the 26 fatalities, 23 people were found dead inside the church, two were found outside and one died later at a hospital.

In nearby Floresville, hours after the attack, Scott Holcombe, 30, sat with his sister on the curb outside the emergency room at Connally Memorial Medical Center. They were both in tears. Their parents, Bryan and Karla Holcombe, had been at the church and had been killed.

“I’m dumbfounded,” Mr. Holcombe said. “This is unimaginable. My father was a good man and he loved to preach. He had a good heart.”

His sister, Sarah Slavin, 33, added: “They weren’t afraid of death. They had a strong faith, so there’s comfort in that. I feel like my parents, especially my mom, wasn’t scared.”

A parishioner, Sandy Ward, said that a daughter-in-law and three of her grandchildren were shot. Her grandson, who is 5, was shot four times and remained in surgery Sunday night. She said she was awaiting word on her other family members.

Ms. Ward said she did not attend services on Sunday because of her troubled knees and a bad hip. “I just started praying for everybody who was there” when she learned of the shooting, she said.

At a news conference on Sunday, Gov. Greg Abbott said that he and other Texans were asking “for God’s comfort, for God’s guidance and for God’s healing for all those who are suffering.”

President Trump, who was in Japan on a trip to several Asian countries, called it a “horrific shooting.”

In a time of crisis, he said, “Americans will do what we do best: we pull together and join hands and lock arms and through the tears and sadness we stand strong.”

The Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives were helping in the investigation, which was being led by the Texas Rangers.

The shooting unfolded on the eighth anniversary of the attack in 2009 on Fort Hood in Texas, when an Army psychiatrist, Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, killed 13 people in one of the deadliest mass shootings at an American military base. Major Hasan carried out his attack in an attempt to wage jihad on American military personnel.

The death toll on Sunday also exceeded the number killed in 1966 by a student at the University of Texas at Austin, Charles Whitman, who opened fire from the school’s clock tower in a day of violence in that ultimately killed 17.

And the shooting on Sunday occurred more than two years after Dylann S. Roof opened fire at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, S.C., in June 2015, killing nine people, including the pastor. The motive in that attack was racial hatred — Mr. Roof, a white supremacist, plotted an assault on a black congregation — but no motive has been established by the authorities in the shooting in Sutherland Springs. The First Baptist Church is predominantly white, and Mr. Kelley is white.

The authorities said Mr. Kelley used an Ruger AR-15 variant — a knockoff of the standard service rifle carried by the American military for roughly half a century.

Almost all AR-15 variants legally sold in the United States fire only semiautomatically, and were covered by the federal assault weapons ban that went into effect in 1994. Since the ban expired in 2004, the weapons have been legal to sell or possess in much of the United States and sales of AR-15s have surged.

Ruger’s AR-15s made for civilian markets sell for about $500 to $900, depending on the model.

Mr. Kelley grew up in New Braunfels, in his parents’ nearly $1 million home, and was married in 2014. Why he chose to attack a church 30 miles away is one of the questions that remained unanswered.

Sutherland Springs in Wilson County is about 34 miles east of downtown San Antonio, in a slow-paced region where church-going is a common part of the Sunday routine. The church marquee on Sunday needed updating from last week, reading, “Join Us, Fall Fest, Oct 31, 6 to 8 PM.”

The unincorporated community has a population that numbers in the low hundreds — the 2000 census was 362, according to the Texas State Historical Association. The preliminary death toll would amount to about 7 percent of that population.

Joseph Silva, 49, who lives about five miles northeast of Sutherland Springs, said the police had instructed his family and neighbors to stay indoors. He described Sutherland Springs as “a one-blinking-light town.”

“There is a gas station and a post office,” he said. “That’s about all there really is.”

Mr. Silva said he had been approached by a woman who said she had two loved ones at the church who were shot. “There are a number of individuals just weeping and just wanted to know what’s happened to their loved ones,” he said. “Everybody is pretty grief-stricken. Everyone’s worried.”

Hours after the shootings, the one-story church was sealed off to reporters, with yellow tape posted around the church grounds. Far beyond the town, the shooting shocked people throughout Texas, a state that is home to some of the biggest churches in the country.

The First Baptist Church of La Vernia, about seven miles away, wrote on Facebook that it would open its doors from 5 to 7 p.m. “There will be pastors and leaders present to pray with you or to talk, and the altar will be open for us to fall at the feet of Jesus,” the church wrote.

First Baptist is a little church, albeit a tech-savvy one. The service at the church last Sunday was posted on YouTube, one of several posted there. Videos posted online show lyrics to the hymns appearing on television screens with parishioners playing electric guitars and a sign language interpreter translating the songs.

The video of last Sunday’s service begins with a rendition of a song called “Happiness Is the Lord.” Then the pastor, Frank Pomeroy, told his parishioners — 20 to 30 were visible in the video — to walk around the room and “shake somebody’s hand.”

“Tell them it’s good to see them in God’s house this morning,” Pastor Pomeroy said.
:(
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Re: Texas Church Shooting

Post by Eulogy »

Shame that this cunt couldn't kick the bucket before starting to kill people.
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Re: Texas Church Shooting

Post by Crazedwraith »

The Guardian wrote:
'This isn't a guns situation,' says Trump after Texas church shooting


US president says mental health of perpetrator, not gun ownership, to blame for mass shooting in which 26 people died.

Donald Trump has blamed Sunday’s deadly mass shooting at a Baptist church in Texas on the mental health of the perpetrator and claimed that gun ownership was not a factor.

Asked during a press conference in Tokyo what policies he would support to tackle mass shootings in the US, the president said: “I think that mental health is a problem here. Based on preliminary reports, this was a very deranged individual with a lot of problems over a very long period of time.

“We have a lot of mental health problems in our country, as do other countries, but this isn’t a guns situation … we could go into it but it’s a little bit soon to go into it. Fortunately somebody else had a gun that was shooting in the opposite direction, otherwise it wouldn’t have been as bad as it was, it would have been much worse.

“This is a mental health problem at the highest level. It’s a very sad event … these are great people at a very, very sad event, but that’s the way I view it.”

Speaking at the end of a two-day visit to Japan, Trump said he sent his “thoughts, prayers and deepest condolences” to the victims of the “horrific assault”, in which 26 people died and 20 others were wounded. The dead ranged in age from five to 72 years old.

Flanked by the Japanese prime minister, Shinzō Abe, Trump paid tribute to the community of Sutherland Springs, a small town 30 miles (48km) south-east of San Antonio.

“Beautiful area … so sad … Sutherland Springs, Texas, such a beautiful, wonderful area with incredible people. Who would ever think a thing like this could every happen? So I want to send my condolences, the condolences of our first lady.

“In tragic times, Americans always pull together, we are always strongest when we are unified. To the wounded and the families of the victims all of America is praying for you, supporting you and grieving alongside you.”

Law enforcement officials in Sutherland Springs did not name the gunman, though his name was reported elsewhere as Devin Patrick Kelley.

The US Air Force said Kelley, 26, served from 2010 to 2014, when he left following a court martial. He received a bad conduct discharge for assaulting his wife and child. Kelley lived in the town of New Braunfels, about 35 miles from Sutherland Springs. On Sunday night police were at the property.

The killing is the worst mass shooting in modern Texas history and one of the worst such gun rampages in recent years. The lone shooter was found dead after he was chased by locals and police across county lines.

Trump’s defence of the retaliatory use of use of guns echoed comments made earlier by the Texas attorney general.

American churches should be “arming some of the parishioners” or hiring “professional security”, Republican Ken Paxton told Fox News in an interview hours after the shootings at Sutherland Springs First Baptist Church. “It’s going to happen again.”

If more churchgoers were armed “there’s always the opportunity that the gunman will be taken out before he has the opportunity to kill very many people”, Paxton said.

The Texas governor, Greg Abbott, said on Sunday: “There are so many families who have lost family members, and it occurred in a church, in a place of worship. That’s where these people were mown down. We mourn their loss.”

Two years ago, Abbott lamented that the state’s population were not buying enough guns. “I’m EMBARRASSED: Texas #2 in nation for new gun purchases, behind CALIFORNIA. Let’s pick up the pace Texans @NRA,” he tweeted in October 2015.

The lone suspect, dressed in black tactical gear and a ballistic vest, drove up to the church during Sunday morning services and started firing inside.

He kept shooting once he entered, according to law enforcement officials. Among the dead was the 14-year-old daughter of Pastor Frank Pomeroy, the family told several television stations.
Not totally idiotic a statement but well it's not one or the other. It's both imho. And he is he actually planning to do anything about America's mental health problems?
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Re: Texas Church Shooting

Post by Terralthra »

The shooter was a white male, so of course it's a "mental health" issue.

Of more concern to me are emerging reports that the shooter lied on his background check form when buying a firearm, saying he had no disqualifying criminal history when he absolutely did. Is...is that it? Does the background check just ask you if you're not allowed and believe your answer? I thought there was a background check involved, where the FBI or ATF or whomever checked criminal records themselves. If this is all on the honor system, we're a great deal more fucked than I thought we were.
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Re: Texas Church Shooting

Post by Simon_Jester »

Crazedwraith wrote: 2017-11-06 01:43pmNot totally idiotic a statement but well it's not one or the other. It's both imho. And he is he actually planning to do anything about America's mental health problems?
He's planning to kill Obamacare. Because that'll help, right?

[sighs]
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Re: Texas Church Shooting

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

But this is Texas, with all of its high gun ownership rates. I thought more guns was supposed to stop this kind of problem? Surely this is fake news, because realistically as soon as the shooter tried anything he would have been shot down by a dozen John Waynes in the pews.

More seriously, the reports we are seeing now (early as they are) indicate that someone did try to shoot him with their own rifle. Of course, since they were caught by surprise, the attempt was too late to save anyone (and seemingly ineffectual, as the shooter was wearing body armor and seems to have died a short time later form a self-inflicted gun shot).
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Re: Texas Church Shooting

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Terralthra wrote: 2017-11-06 02:00pmOf more concern to me are emerging reports that the shooter lied on his background check form when buying a firearm, saying he had no disqualifying criminal history when he absolutely did. Is...is that it? Does the background check just ask you if you're not allowed and believe your answer? I thought there was a background check involved, where the FBI or ATF or whomever checked criminal records themselves. If this is all on the honor system, we're a great deal more fucked than I thought we were.
No, but tieing into Trump's, actually not dumb, statement of Mental Health being a problem in this country: reporting is abysmal even in cases where they are required to report. Also of note: someone fucked up because both the case of domestic abuse and the related dishonorable discharge should have been reported and come up in a background check. But the check system isn't one big database, because reasons.

He was denied a carry permit, so there's that. But I can't find out what specific reason he passed the check for: did the charges not disqualify him (my information says it should have), were the records never submitted, and/or did the background check system just give a false negative?
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Re: Texas Church Shooting

Post by Flagg »

Well, Trump will be cashing his check from the NRA in good cheer, I’m sure. Fuckbag.
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Re: Texas Church Shooting

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Simon_Jester wrote: 2017-11-06 03:07pm
Crazedwraith wrote: 2017-11-06 01:43pmNot totally idiotic a statement but well it's not one or the other. It's both imho. And he is he actually planning to do anything about America's mental health problems?
He's planning to kill Obamacare. Because that'll help, right?

[sighs]
Guess I cut my post off before responding to this. I agree that dumping millions (if not billions) into a centralization database with required reporting of existing disqualifications, combined with an expansion of the mental health care system would benefit the problem way more than more gun laws. I have a friend who's a war vet who just cannot get an appointment to see a shrink using his military (or whatever) insurance. So he instead uses his wife's ObummerCare. And I think he said the copays were cheaper using her insurance..... so, that's "great." "Support the Troops" politicians won't do a fucking thing for their favorite stump speech topic, what chance do the rest of us poor fucks have?

Then a Republican is like:
"This is a mental healthcare issue. We need to tackle that."
"So, what's your plan in that area?"
And you either get something insane like "Gut the only semi-functioning system we have" or [Crickets].

I try and give people the benefit of the doubt, but it's not my fault for hating current Republicans when they consistently keep reminding me how fucking terrible they are. At least Democrats can ACT like they give a shit.
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Re: Texas Church Shooting

Post by Flagg »

Obummercare? You sound like my stupid, racist, shithead brother.
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Re: Texas Church Shooting

Post by Elheru Aran »

Flagg wrote: 2017-11-06 05:37pm Obummercare? You sound like my stupid, racist, shithead brother.
I think he's being ironic?
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Re: Texas Church Shooting

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Flagg wrote: 2017-11-06 05:37pm Obummercare? You sound like my stupid, racist, shithead brother.
Oddly enough, I heard it from MY stupid, racist, shithead brother. And it's probably the least stupid, racist, shithead reference he's made to anything Obama related.

So... High five?
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Re: Texas Church Shooting

Post by The Romulan Republic »

So, apparently a local intervened with his own gun and helped stop the shooter.

On the one hand, this man is a hero, and I am glad if he was able to help.

But I can't help feeling a bit bitter about how the NRA (which is ultimately more an Alt. Reich group than a gun rights group these days anyway) will use this as a talking point.
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Re: Texas Church Shooting

Post by Soontir C'boath »

Apparently the US Air Force did not submit his court martial into the national criminal database back in 2012.

Sooooo, inb4 it's Obama's fault.
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Re: Texas Church Shooting

Post by Simon_Jester »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2017-11-06 07:59pm So, apparently a local intervened with his own gun and helped stop the shooter.

On the one hand, this man is a hero, and I am glad if he was able to help.

But I can't help feeling a bit bitter about how the NRA (which is ultimately more an Alt. Reich group than a gun rights group these days anyway) will use this as a talking point.
Just throw Las Vegas at them, and the quotes of that one country music guy who came out as pro-gun control in the aftermath. "Yeah, we had a bunch of concealed carry guys in the crowd and it didn't do shit!"

Sometimes, having a gun on you actually does prevent or limit the lethal violence someone else might throw at you. Sometimes, it doesn't. It's a crapshoot.
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Re: Texas Church Shooting

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Simon_Jester wrote: 2017-11-07 08:19am
The Romulan Republic wrote: 2017-11-06 07:59pm So, apparently a local intervened with his own gun and helped stop the shooter.

On the one hand, this man is a hero, and I am glad if he was able to help.

But I can't help feeling a bit bitter about how the NRA (which is ultimately more an Alt. Reich group than a gun rights group these days anyway) will use this as a talking point.
Just throw Las Vegas at them, and the quotes of that one country music guy who came out as pro-gun control in the aftermath. "Yeah, we had a bunch of concealed carry guys in the crowd and it didn't do shit!"

Sometimes, having a gun on you actually does prevent or limit the lethal violence someone else might throw at you. Sometimes, it doesn't. It's a crapshoot.
The neighbor keeps being cited as pro-gun intervention, I don't see how you can really call it an intervention or even limiting the casualties when the exchange didn't happen until the shooter was already leaving. In other words, he didn't stop anything.
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Re: Texas Church Shooting

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Lost Soal wrote: 2017-11-07 10:35am

The neighbor keeps being cited as pro-gun intervention, I don't see how you can really call it an intervention or even limiting the casualties when the exchange didn't happen until the shooter was already leaving. In other words, he didn't stop anything.
I mean, y'know, unless this was the first stop on his spree. Cumbria shooter comes to mind as an example who moved along to different locations on a shooting rampage.
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Re: Texas Church Shooting

Post by Zixinus »

Lonestar wrote: 2017-11-07 10:41am
Lost Soal wrote: 2017-11-07 10:35am

The neighbor keeps being cited as pro-gun intervention, I don't see how you can really call it an intervention or even limiting the casualties when the exchange didn't happen until the shooter was already leaving. In other words, he didn't stop anything.
I mean, y'know, unless this was the first stop on his spree. Cumbria shooter comes to mind as an example who moved along to different locations on a shooting rampage.
You are arguing with something that might have happened against what actually happened.

Which is more likely by the way? That a random gun-enthusiast armed and actually able to kill the spree-killer on sight will show up, or that a cop will?

Remember, this requires not only a gun-owner who keeps a gun at home that they use for whatever reason, but someone is actually legally carrying.
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Re: Texas Church Shooting

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Lonestar wrote: 2017-11-07 10:41am
Lost Soal wrote: 2017-11-07 10:35am

The neighbor keeps being cited as pro-gun intervention, I don't see how you can really call it an intervention or even limiting the casualties when the exchange didn't happen until the shooter was already leaving. In other words, he didn't stop anything.
I mean, y'know, unless this was the first stop on his spree. Cumbria shooter comes to mind as an example who moved along to different locations on a shooting rampage.
WOW, Guess what? TRUMP just used this argument as well. See this link to the BBC article

Now, let's get to the facts here:
1. Shooter was known abuser, was even jailed by the military for abusing his then-wife and daughter
2. Military did not pass on the info that this man was a convicted criminal and should not be allowed to buy/own guns.
3. Police were called on shooter for Domestic Issues, but no one arrested as the then-girlfriend (later second wife) declared "nothing was wrong".
4. Shooter was texting threats to (ex?)mother-in-law, who occasionally attended that church with her mother, who was a church volunteer (and was one of those shot). These threats extend over several days prior to the shooting.
5. Shooter goes to church, seemingly looking for mother-in-law's family, and proceeds to simply shoot everyone as he walked up the aisle, and was still shooting as he walked back out.
6. Unnamed "hero with a gun" hears the gunfire, gets his rifle, and begins a gunbattle outside the church as the Shooter attempts to drive off.
7. A second "good samaritan" pulls in at the sound of gunfire, the 'hero' jumps into his truck, and together they chase after the shooter's car, at speeds over 90mph.
8. Shooter wrecks his car, after texting his dad that he's shot and "doesnt' think he'll survive". "Hero' approaches the wrecked car and finds Shooter deceased via presumed self-inflicted wound.

I would NOT call this a "mental health issue". This is a domestic abuser deciding to kill his spouse's family (ex-wife or otherwise). Why he lost it now, we may never know; but he got mad at someone, he got a gun, and he didn't care who all died, as long as he got the ones he hated.
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Re: Texas Church Shooting

Post by LadyTevar »

The BBC also provided a List of those Killed
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Re: Texas Church Shooting

Post by Lonestar »

Zixinus wrote: 2017-11-07 01:35pm

You are arguing with something that might have happened against what actually happened.

I'm responding to a silly absolutist response, when he was apparently able to enter and leave with no one(to include cops) easily opposing him. Why people have interpreted this as "well he was gonna stop then and/or the cops would easily stop him before he killed again" is beyond me, especially since his presumed targets(his in-laws) weren't there.
LadyTevar wrote: WOW, Guess what? TRUMP just used this argument as well.
So?
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