General Empire vs Borg musings

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Tribble
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Re: General Empire vs Borg musings

Post by Tribble » 2017-10-19 02:38pm

Well, the Borg always have the option of just trading for some SW tech; they not above negotiating if they feel the need to. Guinan seemed to think that it is possible to form a relationship with the Borg (with the Federation's main problem being that they were so far behind in both size and tech that the Borg just viewed them as raw material). The SW galaxy might be far enough in front of the Borg that they simply decide to try and open up some kind of dialogue as that would be the more efficient course of action vs picking a fight.

Of course if this is Voyager's Borg we're talking about they'd most likely send a single Cube straight to Coruscant and demand its immediate surrender. :P
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Re: General Empire vs Borg musings

Post by Q99 » 2017-10-19 02:41pm

Tribble wrote:
2017-10-19 02:38pm
Well, the Borg always have the option of just trading for some SW tech; they not above negotiating if they feel the need to. Guinan seemed to think that it is possible to form a relationship with the Borg (with the Federation's main problem being that they were so far behind in both size and tech that the Borg just viewed them as raw material). The SW galaxy might be far enough in front of the Borg that they simply decide to try and open up some kind of dialogue as that would be the more efficient course of action vs picking a fight.

Of course if this is Voyager's Borg we're talking about they'd most likely send a single Cube straight to Coruscant and demand its immediate surrender. :P
I'll note the single-cube thing was the Borg's TNG tactic. Voyager was where we saw that they basically 'farm' species, and their trade with Voyager.

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Re: General Empire vs Borg musings

Post by Tribble » 2017-10-19 03:00pm

Q99 wrote:
2017-10-19 02:41pm
Tribble wrote:
2017-10-19 02:38pm
Well, the Borg always have the option of just trading for some SW tech; they not above negotiating if they feel the need to. Guinan seemed to think that it is possible to form a relationship with the Borg (with the Federation's main problem being that they were so far behind in both size and tech that the Borg just viewed them as raw material). The SW galaxy might be far enough in front of the Borg that they simply decide to try and open up some kind of dialogue as that would be the more efficient course of action vs picking a fight.

Of course if this is Voyager's Borg we're talking about they'd most likely send a single Cube straight to Coruscant and demand its immediate surrender. :P
I'll note the single-cube thing was the Borg's TNG tactic. Voyager was where we saw that they basically 'farm' species, and their trade with Voyager.
Now that I think of it, we've never really seen how the Borg act towards equals and/or superiors. Barring S8472 of course, but I doubt that the Borg could have negotiated with them even if they wanted to, what with their plans to purge the galaxy of all life and everything. Plus, while Arturis's people were technologically advanced they were no where near the Borg in terms of size (IIRC the Borg's strategy ended up being to overwhelm them with sheer numbers). IMO it's plausible that the SW galaxy is so far beyond anything else the Borg have encountered in both tech and scope that they might actually decide that the most efficient way to go about things is to open up a dialogue rather than immediately attack.
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Re: General Empire vs Borg musings

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2017-10-21 12:46pm

Tribble wrote:
2017-10-19 03:00pm
Q99 wrote:
2017-10-19 02:41pm
Tribble wrote:
2017-10-19 02:38pm
Well, the Borg always have the option of just trading for some SW tech; they not above negotiating if they feel the need to. Guinan seemed to think that it is possible to form a relationship with the Borg (with the Federation's main problem being that they were so far behind in both size and tech that the Borg just viewed them as raw material). The SW galaxy might be far enough in front of the Borg that they simply decide to try and open up some kind of dialogue as that would be the more efficient course of action vs picking a fight.

Of course if this is Voyager's Borg we're talking about they'd most likely send a single Cube straight to Coruscant and demand its immediate surrender. :P
I'll note the single-cube thing was the Borg's TNG tactic. Voyager was where we saw that they basically 'farm' species, and their trade with Voyager.
Now that I think of it, we've never really seen how the Borg act towards equals and/or superiors. Barring S8472 of course, but I doubt that the Borg could have negotiated with them even if they wanted to, what with their plans to purge the galaxy of all life and everything. Plus, while Arturis's people were technologically advanced they were no where near the Borg in terms of size (IIRC the Borg's strategy ended up being to overwhelm them with sheer numbers). IMO it's plausible that the SW galaxy is so far beyond anything else the Borg have encountered in both tech and scope that they might actually decide that the most efficient way to go about things is to open up a dialogue rather than immediately attack.
The Borg's whole war with the Undine/8472 started because the Borg somehow learned of their existence as the "apex of biological evolution" but found that when their only method of conquering other species was useless, they were totally out of their depth.

This also depends on how they learn of the Empire's size and strength, and how intelligently they approach their situation, since never before have they encountered a foe that is both technologically and numerically superior.
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Re: General Empire vs Borg musings

Post by Q99 » 2017-10-21 02:04pm

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:
2017-10-21 12:46pm
The Borg's whole war with the Undine/8472 started because the Borg somehow learned of their existence as the "apex of biological evolution" but found that when their only method of conquering other species was useless, they were totally out of their depth.
With a side of 8472 *also* being out of their depth and responding with great military force, and the Borg not even being able to assimilate individuals to gain intel. Once the fighting started, it was very hard to change course.
This also depends on how they learn of the Empire's size and strength, and how intelligently they approach their situation, since never before have they encountered a foe that is both technologically and numerically superior.
It shouldn't be hard to nab some small ships, or even some underdefended settlements/worlds, so they'll have insider information soon enough.

It's worth noting their initial plays with both Federation and Romulans were to skirt around the edges and assimilate some weak works. Going for the heart of the Federation came later. T

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Re: General Empire vs Borg musings

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2017-10-21 06:30pm

That's what I meant, when it became apparent that the Borg couldn't assimilate either the individuals or their ships they had no way to counter. It says something about their lack of creativity when a single ship (Voyager) could do what the entire collective could not.

The only reason the Borg didn't go after the Federation with more than a single cube is because they're on the other side of the Galaxy, and one cube is all the Feds can handle. It's telling that instead of beaming down and assimilating worlds along the Romulan Neutral Zone, but instead scooping them out of the ground wholesale- the reason presumably being that the Borg could not defend newly-assimilated worlds without stationing additional cubes nearby.

8472 for their part, could pop cubes like balloons and packed planet-busting firepower when a few of their ships group together.
It's no use debating a moron; they drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

Just because you have the attention span of a fruit fly doesn't mean the rest of us are so encumbered.

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Re: General Empire vs Borg musings

Post by Q99 » 2017-10-22 01:50pm

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:
2017-10-21 06:30pm
That's what I meant, when it became apparent that the Borg couldn't assimilate either the individuals or their ships they had no way to counter. It says something about their lack of creativity when a single ship (Voyager) could do what the entire collective could not.
With negotiation also off the cards. The only thing Voyager could do was... come up with a new way for Borg nanites to work, thus giving them a credible threat, and that with an 8472 cell sample I don't know if the Borg had access to. Without Borg technology and that sample Voyager couldn't do jack either. It's not like the Borg had a simple solution anyone could've come up with.
The only reason the Borg didn't go after the Federation with more than a single cube is because they're on the other side of the Galaxy, and one cube is all the Feds can handle. It's telling that instead of beaming down and assimilating worlds along the Romulan Neutral Zone, but instead scooping them out of the ground wholesale- the reason presumably being that the Borg could not defend newly-assimilated worlds without stationing additional cubes nearby.
There's signs there were other cubes in the area- obviously at least one Cube *returned* from the AQ because Voyager met Klingon, and Hugh's scout cube was around. And the Borg have enough ships that 'send a hundred and claim an area in the heart of the Federation,' is an option.

Personally I go with the 'the Borg were testing assimilation methods and tech farming,' explanation. The Federation was hard to assimilate, even more-so than their tech indicated... so going after them with single Cubes gave them some competition and more experience vs hard to assimilate targets, plus the new anti-borg weapons were of interest. It was a relatively low-danger, low risk, low cost test opponent.

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Re: General Empire vs Borg musings

Post by Tribble » 2017-10-22 11:23pm

Q99 wrote:There's signs there were other cubes in the area- obviously at least one Cube *returned* from the AQ because Voyager met Klingon, and Hugh's scout cube was around. And the Borg have enough ships that 'send a hundred and claim an area in the heart of the Federation,' is an option.

Personally I go with the 'the Borg were testing assimilation methods and tech farming,' explanation. The Federation was hard to assimilate, even more-so than their tech indicated... so going after them with single Cubes gave them some competition and more experience vs hard to assimilate targets, plus the new anti-borg weapons were of interest. It was a relatively low-danger, low risk, low cost test opponent.
IMO the Borg were well aware of the Federation, they just weren't particularly interested in it prior to the events of Q-Who. Even after assimilating the outposts along the Neutral Zone apparently the Borg had decided that the Federation wasn't worth their effort as they left rather than continue to attack. Guinan had stated that the encounter at J-25 changed things, and that official First Contact with the Borg came much sooner than it was supposed to. From the Borg's perspective the E-D appeared out of nowhere much farther out than it should be, put up a better fight then expected, then suddenly disappeared right before it could be assimilated. Perhaps that's what perked the Borg's interest and made them decide that the Federation was worth assimilating after all.

What I find interesting is the way the Cube behaved in BOBW; the Borg already knew the location of Earth (since they started heading towards it the moment they kidnapped Picard), yet they seemed to be attacking colonies and ships at random prior to running into the E-D. Perhaps they weren't entirely confident about their chances until after they assimilated Picard? They couldn't have possibly known beforehand that the E-D would be one of the first ships on the scene; Picard was clearly a bonus for them. I wonder if running into the E-D so soon changed whatever their original plans were?
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Re: General Empire vs Borg musings

Post by Q99 » 2017-10-23 12:28pm

Tribble wrote:
2017-10-22 11:23pm
What I find interesting is the way the Cube behaved in BOBW; the Borg already knew the location of Earth (since they started heading towards it the moment they kidnapped Picard), yet they seemed to be attacking colonies and ships at random prior to running into the E-D. Perhaps they weren't entirely confident about their chances until after they assimilated Picard? They couldn't have possibly known beforehand that the E-D would be one of the first ships on the scene; Picard was clearly a bonus for them. I wonder if running into the E-D so soon changed whatever their original plans were?
Or assimilating a high-rank officer- not necessarily Picard- was the plan.

Cause trouble, see what they lure out, grab the brain with the more secure intel from the biggest ship that comes, proceed from there.

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