Let's talk about the Recent(past year or so) WH40K fluff updates. Spoilers all

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Let's talk about the Recent(past year or so) WH40K fluff updates. Spoilers all

Postby Lonestar » 2017-05-17 11:13pm

Well this week GW announced "Primaris Marines", which are essentially patched Marines that are True-scale on the table top game. Supposedly, the new Lord Commander is going to offer these things to all the chapters, as well as create entire new chapters out of whole cloth from them.

What does this mean for chapters with gene-seed abnormalities? Are they missing? Will they dial up to 11 when they present? I'm thinking a Primaris Space Wolf turning into a freakin' Loup-Garou when the Wulfen flaw manifests, or a Blood Angel Primaris killing maybe a dozen regular Marines when the Black Rage takes over.
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Re: Let's talk about the Recent(past year or so) WH40K fluff updates. Spoilers all

Postby Bob the Gunslinger » 2017-05-17 11:24pm

It depends on what background they go with for 8th edition. If Russ and some other primarchs return, they would presumably insist on primaris marines of their own chapters, essentially true scale marines for everyone. If the guy in charge now has issues with the Wolf Wolfsson McMurderfang direction of the last 5 years, we might see things toned down even. If the primarchs sell really well, they might float some super Wolfy primaris Lou garou to see if more extreme is what people want.

Frankly, it's all been shit since Newcrons.
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Re: Let's talk about the Recent(past year or so) WH40K fluff updates. Spoilers all

Postby Q99 » 2017-05-18 01:14am

They've definitely been willing to mess with canon more and have stuff actually happen- if, fortunately, not to the same extent they did with Fantasy.

I find the Ynnead stuff more interesting- well, partially because I like Eldar.

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Re: Let's talk about the Recent(past year or so) WH40K fluff updates. Spoilers all

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2017-05-18 12:11pm

While the fluff changes are interesting (they advanced the story, I never thought they would ever do that), I'm more interested in crunch/rules changes for 8th edition. A few things I've seen so far make a lot of quite sensible changes.
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Re: Let's talk about the Recent(past year or so) WH40K fluff updates. Spoilers all

Postby Kojiro » 2017-05-18 06:13pm

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:Frankly, it's all been shit since Newcrons.

Truer words were never spoken.

The primaris marines are vat grown clones. They're superseding the old marines in what I am sure is nothing more than a reason to scrap the old marine line, upscale it slightly, and resell it to their biggest fan base. Super dangerous galaxy + new crusade = tons of fighting. And fighting equal casualties. Since some of the fluff they've teased tells us it's at least 100 years on there's every reason to believe that chapters sustaining losses will replace them from the nu-marines. Why wouldn't you? No difficult recruitment, no decade of training/maturation, no risks of rejection or loss of geneseed. And you know, they're actually better. The Forgeworlds are already at capacity and sooner or later they'll say 'look, we can make you the old inferior armour and bolters, or we can make you the fancy new armour and bolters. You can equip your inferior marines or you can equip your superior marines.' There's really not much choice there.

So yeah, I'm sure nu-marines are little more than a carefully crafted fluff reason to resell the marine line.
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Re: Let's talk about the Recent(past year or so) WH40K fluff updates. Spoilers all

Postby Elheru Aran » 2017-05-18 07:24pm

To recap:

--We started off in 2015 (ish?) with Magnus returning to Fenris and fucking the Space Wolves' shit up.
--2016, Gathering Storm. Cadia fell before the Guard did. The Eldar have a new Avatar of their Death-God Ynnead. And Roboute Guilliman woke up, kicked massive amounts of arse, went back to Terra and had words with Daddy.

Then Chaos split the galaxy into two (Failbaddon suddenly became a lot less 'armless) and the Sigmarines showed up. Looks like we're heading for Age of 40K.

I have no comment on the gameplay, not being an actual player myself, but the new models look OK. It's nice that they're including rules to use the older models as well. But I think it's pretty obvious they're probably going to phase out the old stuff in favor of their Primaris Marines, Drukhari, Aeldari, etc... just hope they don't do it too quickly.
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Re: Let's talk about the Recent(past year or so) WH40K fluff updates. Spoilers all

Postby Kojiro » 2017-05-18 07:43pm

The new gameplay has some interesting mechanics. The current gameplay is a hot mess, so it'll be hard to do worse.

The standardisation of S/T/W across everything is in some ways quite good, certainly an improvement over the current hodgepodge of monstrous creatures, vehicles, super heavies and the like.

I'm absolutely not sold fixed to hit rolls. Never have been, never will. And I'm not sure yet but I think 'anything can wound anything' is also a bad idea. People are going to lose tanks and whatnot to small arms- not totally, just the last wound or so- and be annoyed. But also you're going to get the occasional land raider that gets mauled by a lucky round of lasgun fire. It's a very random element that can affect very expensive models.

Overall though it still seems to be lacking depth. Math could determine every choice because the only thing you can do to someone and largely your only objective is kill them. So long as that remains true there'll always be some formula to guide your actions and the game will lack real depth.
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Re: Let's talk about the Recent(past year or so) WH40K fluff updates. Spoilers all

Postby NecronLord » 2017-05-18 09:14pm

Lonestar wrote:Well this week GW announced "Primaris Marines", which are essentially patched Marines that are True-scale on the table top game.

Not really. There's no evidence they're anything to do with the truescale movement; people have this bee in their bonnet about marine size, but the existing marine minis are the same height as eldar and necron warriors, who are also 7' tall in the lore. Truescale is born out of a sort of marine fanboyism that denies that they're intended to be 7' tall, really; and GW is not humoring that at all, Primaris are as much bigger in lore as they are in tabletop.

GW has known people want bigger marines, of course, but they're not really pandering to the truescalists at all.
Supposedly, the new Lord Commander is going to offer these things to all the chapters, as well as create entire new chapters out of whole cloth from them.

What does this mean for chapters with gene-seed abnormalities? Are they missing? Will they dial up to 11 when they present? I'm thinking a Primaris Space Wolf turning into a freakin' Loup-Garou when the Wulfen flaw manifests, or a Blood Angel Primaris killing maybe a dozen regular Marines when the Black Rage takes over.


We don't really know, but I will report after Warhammer Fest next week.
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Re: Let's talk about the Recent(past year or so) WH40K fluff updates. Spoilers all

Postby NecronLord » 2017-05-18 09:21pm

Bob the Gunslinger wrote:It depends on what background they go with for 8th edition. If Russ and some other primarchs return, they would presumably insist on primaris marines of their own chapters, essentially true scale marines for everyone. If the guy in charge now has issues with the Wolf Wolfsson McMurderfang direction of the last 5 years, we might see things toned down even. If the primarchs sell really well, they might float some super Wolfy primaris Lou garou to see if more extreme is what people want.

Frankly, it's all been shit since Newcrons.


Guilliman is already sending them to the Wolves and using wolf geneseed.

And every other chapter he can. They even mention sending them to the Rainbow Warriors.

Q99 wrote:They've definitely been willing to mess with canon more and have stuff actually happen- if, fortunately, not to the same extent they did with Fantasy.

I find the Ynnead stuff more interesting- well, partially because I like Eldar.


I don't see this as canon messing at all; it's been shown six years ago that Astartes were not the pinnacle of what could be done with the technology at all. In Deliverence Lost, Corax gets hold of the genetic source material for the primarch project and makes 'Raptors' who are bigger, faster, stronger than astartes.

Raptors were able to be recruited with a negligable rejection rate, and defeat seasoned veteran marines in HtH combat within weeks of training.

Corax believed that the Emperor had imposed artificial limits on the Astartes, as he didn't even find it *hard* to make the Raptors. They did it inside a year.

The Raptor project was of course, fucked up by chaos. But Primaris are functionally little different, from what we know thus far. It may even be that Guilliman got the idea from talking to Corax after the heresy.

I'm also very pleased with the Ynnead stuff.

Ynnead's new, but everything about it, right down to the Yncarne, fits with how gods worked as far back as Realms of Chaos, and the Primaris are new, but functionally seem eerily similar to Corax's raptors before their source material was tainted.
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Re: Let's talk about the Recent(past year or so) WH40K fluff updates. Spoilers all

Postby Q99 » 2017-05-18 09:33pm

By 'mess with' in this context, I mean 'advance.' Canon's been totally static for a very long time, outside the addition of new races or the Necrons-have-personality retcon.

I've got no real complains about these advances.

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Re: Let's talk about the Recent(past year or so) WH40K fluff updates. Spoilers all

Postby NecronLord » 2017-05-18 09:38pm

Ah right, yeah, I'm really enjoying it.

I'm just hoping my eldar corsairs won't get their keywords fucked; hopefully I'll be able to use them with the Ynnari stuff on tabletop.

Otherwise, I have no worries really.
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Re: Let's talk about the Recent(past year or so) WH40K fluff updates. Spoilers all

Postby Gandalf » 2017-05-18 10:07pm

If the Space Marines get Big Space Marines, I want Big Orks.
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Postby Kojiro » 2017-05-18 10:42pm

Have you seen the original orks? You've already got big orks!
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Re: Let's talk about the Recent(past year or so) WH40K fluff updates. Spoilers all

Postby Gandalf » 2017-05-18 10:58pm

Kojiro wrote:Have you seen the original orks? You've already got big orks!


I'm aiming for one which can punch an Imperial Knight.
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Re: Let's talk about the Recent(past year or so) WH40K fluff updates. Spoilers all

Postby Bob the Gunslinger » 2017-05-18 11:16pm

I'm not really a fan of Chaos as the primary threat, especially when Necrons and Thranids needed to be needed to accomplish it.
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Re: Let's talk about the Recent(past year or so) WH40K fluff updates. Spoilers all

Postby NecronLord » 2017-05-19 06:48am

Gandalf wrote:If the Space Marines get Big Space Marines, I want Big Orks.

They have already laid the groundwork for that, actually, in the Beast Arises books; giving lore background for orks that can defeat Primarchs in hand to hand, and various other sorts of more capable and larger orks.

Far from impossible that they'll give you it for tabletop too.
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Re: Let's talk about the Recent(past year or so) WH40K fluff updates. Spoilers all

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2017-05-19 12:46pm

Kojiro wrote:The new gameplay has some interesting mechanics. The current gameplay is a hot mess, so it'll be hard to do worse.

The standardisation of S/T/W across everything is in some ways quite good, certainly an improvement over the current hodgepodge of monstrous creatures, vehicles, super heavies and the like.

I'm absolutely not sold fixed to hit rolls. Never have been, never will. And I'm not sure yet but I think 'anything can wound anything' is also a bad idea. People are going to lose tanks and whatnot to small arms- not totally, just the last wound or so- and be annoyed. But also you're going to get the occasional land raider that gets mauled by a lucky round of lasgun fire. It's a very random element that can affect very expensive models.

Overall though it still seems to be lacking depth. Math could determine every choice because the only thing you can do to someone and largely your only objective is kill them. So long as that remains true there'll always be some formula to guide your actions and the game will lack real depth.


Small arms wounding vehicles/giant things may be handled already - if you weapon is (IIRC) 4 Strength less than the models Toughness, you can't would unless you have something special like Poisoned, Fleshbane or Rending. So giving vehicles a toughness of, say, 12 makes them functionally invulnerable to anything Strength 7 or below.

Though that does make me worried about how Poisoned/Fleshbane will intereact with vehicles now - it would be a bit silly for something like a Baneblade or Knight to be overwhelmed by wounds from Sternguard Marines with Poisoned (2+) Hellfire rounds, since they're nominally strength 1 at present.
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Re: Let's talk about the Recent(past year or so) WH40K fluff updates. Spoilers all

Postby Alkaloid » 2017-05-20 12:18am

I don't see this as canon messing at all; it's been shown six years ago that Astartes were not the pinnacle of what could be done with the technology at all. In Deliverence Lost, Corax gets hold of the genetic source material for the primarch project and makes 'Raptors' who are bigger, faster, stronger than astartes.

Raptors were able to be recruited with a negligable rejection rate, and defeat seasoned veteran marines in HtH combat within weeks of training.

Corax believed that the Emperor had imposed artificial limits on the Astartes, as he didn't even find it *hard* to make the Raptors. They did it inside a year.


They've been laying the groundwork for a while that creating super soldiers wasn't really the 'true' purpose of the program. There's the whole business about the pre marine Thunder Warriors being better soldiers before the Emperor and the first of the Custodes wiped them out, and the Wolves, Salamanders and Alpha Legion being created in isolation from the other 17 with particular purposes in mind. We know what the Wolves was now, but have no idea about the AL or the Salamanders. If they keep pushing that line that could actually be interesting.

I'll be very unsurprised if there turns out to be something just 'wrong' with the Primaris marines, given the way every attempt at creating better marines has gone before, but they can sell it as there being a primarch involved or something now if they want to. Kind of boring, but eh, GW is still GW I suppose. Models to sell.

They even mention sending them to the Rainbow Warriors.


Fucking. Yes. If they bring Vulkan back and he's interesting enough I'd consider unpacking my old Sallies, but this alone makes me want to paint stripy helmets.

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Re: Let's talk about the Recent(past year or so) WH40K fluff updates. Spoilers all

Postby ray245 » 2017-05-20 03:34am

Alkaloid wrote:
I don't see this as canon messing at all; it's been shown six years ago that Astartes were not the pinnacle of what could be done with the technology at all. In Deliverence Lost, Corax gets hold of the genetic source material for the primarch project and makes 'Raptors' who are bigger, faster, stronger than astartes.

Raptors were able to be recruited with a negligable rejection rate, and defeat seasoned veteran marines in HtH combat within weeks of training.

Corax believed that the Emperor had imposed artificial limits on the Astartes, as he didn't even find it *hard* to make the Raptors. They did it inside a year.


They've been laying the groundwork for a while that creating super soldiers wasn't really the 'true' purpose of the program. There's the whole business about the pre marine Thunder Warriors being better soldiers before the Emperor and the first of the Custodes wiped them out, and the Wolves, Salamanders and Alpha Legion being created in isolation from the other 17 with particular purposes in mind. We know what the Wolves was now, but have no idea about the AL or the Salamanders. If they keep pushing that line that could actually be interesting.

I'll be very unsurprised if there turns out to be something just 'wrong' with the Primaris marines, given the way every attempt at creating better marines has gone before, but they can sell it as there being a primarch involved or something now if they want to. Kind of boring, but eh, GW is still GW I suppose. Models to sell.


What's the true purpose of the Space Wolves?
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Re: Let's talk about the Recent(past year or so) WH40K fluff updates. Spoilers all

Postby The Grim Squeaker » 2017-05-20 04:01am

ray245 wrote:
Alkaloid wrote:
I don't see this as canon messing at all; it's been shown six years ago that Astartes were not the pinnacle of what could be done with the technology at all. In Deliverence Lost, Corax gets hold of the genetic source material for the primarch project and makes 'Raptors' who are bigger, faster, stronger than astartes.

Raptors were able to be recruited with a negligable rejection rate, and defeat seasoned veteran marines in HtH combat within weeks of training.

Corax believed that the Emperor had imposed artificial limits on the Astartes, as he didn't even find it *hard* to make the Raptors. They did it inside a year.


They've been laying the groundwork for a while that creating super soldiers wasn't really the 'true' purpose of the program. There's the whole business about the pre marine Thunder Warriors being better soldiers before the Emperor and the first of the Custodes wiped them out, and the Wolves, Salamanders and Alpha Legion being created in isolation from the other 17 with particular purposes in mind. We know what the Wolves was now, but have no idea about the AL or the Salamanders. If they keep pushing that line that could actually be interesting.

I'll be very unsurprised if there turns out to be something just 'wrong' with the Primaris marines, given the way every attempt at creating better marines has gone before, but they can sell it as there being a primarch involved or something now if they want to. Kind of boring, but eh, GW is still GW I suppose. Models to sell.


What's the true purpose of the Space Wolves?

Executioners. i.e to wipe out other rogue Primarchs or even chapters.
(Their track record isn't as good as the Lunar Wolves, but at least they tried hard :))
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Re: Let's talk about the Recent(past year or so) WH40K fluff updates. Spoilers all

Postby Lost Soal » 2017-05-20 04:25am

Huh, I am way out on current lore. The most recent book time wise I've read is Dante where they included a prophecy from Sanguinius about Terra being eaten by the Tyranids.
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Re: Let's talk about the Recent(past year or so) WH40K fluff updates. Spoilers all

Postby Bedlam » 2017-05-20 04:42am

I'm pretty sure we'll get chaos Primaris within a year or two so they can be modelled the same way as the loyalists.

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Re: Let's talk about the Recent(past year or so) WH40K fluff updates. Spoilers all

Postby Kojiro » 2017-05-20 05:03am

I fucking loathe the Wolves as executioners. It's some of the worst reasoning around. I don't mind the idea of them having to do it, but I can't stand the idea is their purpose, like the emperor designed them that way. Or that such is common knowledge among the chapters.
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Re: Let's talk about the Recent(past year or so) WH40K fluff updates. Spoilers all

Postby Alkaloid » 2017-05-20 06:13am

Executioners. i.e to wipe out other rogue Primarchs or even chapters.
(Their track record isn't as good as the Lunar Wolves, but at least they tried hard :))


Aren't they on 2 out of 3? not terrible odds. Is is there some other book that tells us the Lunar Wolves did in the two missing chapters?

I fucking loathe the Wolves as executioners. It's some of the worst reasoning around. I don't mind the idea of them having to do it, but I can't stand the idea is their purpose, like the emperor designed them that way. Or that such is common knowledge among the chapters.


Eh, it's not terrible. Insular violent loonies who are aggressively resistant to outside influences are a better choice than most for the job.

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Re: Let's talk about the Recent(past year or so) WH40K fluff updates. Spoilers all

Postby Kojiro » 2017-05-20 08:54am

Alkaloid wrote:Eh, it's not terrible. Insular violent loonies who are aggressively resistant to outside influences are a better choice than most for the job.

1. It's a rubbish role. It's like military police, but for utter extermination.
2. All marine chapters are highly resistant to outside influences. ALL of them.
3. If one was going to have 'enforcers' among ones troops, one would think the least emotional, most disciplined, most loyal troops might called upon. Possibly even kept close to home, like the Imperial Fists. Not some isolationist, doctrine rejecting violent savages.

The marines have their purpose. This is just brain but territory, where every chapter has to have some special role. Beyond being elite, superhuman best in the galaxy warriors.
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