Netflix- Marvel's Iron Fist *potential spoilers*

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Netflix- Marvel's Iron Fist *potential spoilers*

Post by Crazedwraith »

Iron Fist, the follow on to Daredevil, Jessica Jones and Luke Cage and final member of the upcoming Defenders has been released!

The early buzz about it was not good however but that may be also be because it's not seen a progressive as JJ or LC with it's rich white protagonist, Danny Rand who gains a kung-fu light up fist if my memory of comics is correct.

I'll probably give it a go soon.
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Re: Netflix- Marvel's Iron Fist *potential spoilers*

Post by Vendetta »

Nah, it's not just because it's "not progressive". It's because it's pretty shit.

Iron Fist is, more than anything, a confused mess of a show. Nobody in the show seems to have a clear idea what they want. Not the villains, not Danny Rand, there's maybe a sort of bit of character development hinted at for Colleen Wing early on but it doesn't go anywhere and then they change track with her and do a completely different and dumber plot anyway. It forgets what it's doing every few episodes and hares off in a new direction with new antagonists that have no clearer direction than the last lot.

And it's really boring. There's no tension in any of the plots, and very little energy between the leads. Because there's no clear direction in the plot there's no stakes either.

The fighting is dull too, Finn Jones does not sell the fight scenes at all, Jessica Henwick does a little better, but not by much, and the choreography is insipid. Most of the fights are shot in the dark so you can't tell how badly the actors are doing.

The way the Hand are portrayed is also completely at odds with Daredevil season 2. Not better mind, they're still messy and rubbish, but completely different in their characterisation, who they are (as in which characters belong to the Hand) and what they want. (I really wish they'd leave the Hand out of it, but they seem to be married to them, since they're the baddies in The Defenders as well)

It takes basically nothing from any Iron Fist comics other than some names, and the one character that does show up, the Bride of Nine Spiders, is a disposable Hand mook instead of being another Immortal Weapon.

I suspect it's a combination of not daring to do a story as explicitly based on magic kung fu as the actual Iron Fist comics and also wanting to set up the Defenders so they dragged the silly old Hand into things (but made them really inconsistent with previous portrayals and inconsisntent with themselves throughout the same damn show depending on which of two-and-a-half poorly executed plots they were using them for.)

Also, it's padded to fuck. There's about six episodes of worthwhile content, but it's a thirteen episode show, so the pace is glacial until the last three.
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Re: Netflix- Marvel's Iron Fist *potential spoilers*

Post by Joun_Lord »

I'm 4 episodes in and aboot to start my 5th episode and so far its.....okay. Its probably an average Netflix Marvel show. Alot of padding and drama punctuated by bursts of action.

I'm so far liking it but it had some slow moments but thats been true for all the netflix Marvel shows so far. I find Danny a bit interesting, kinda like Oliver Queen without the angst. The creepy wondertwins are kinda meh.

Part of me really wishes they shows more of Danny's culture shock. Not only is he been gone for 15 years and all the technological and societal changes that has brought but 15 years in a society that learned of the existence of aliens and gods, had atleast two alien invasions, had a government agency overrun by literal Nazis, and giant Thomas the Tank Engine appearing. Also whatever Agents of Shield has been doing that nobody cares about. Something like the would have to be a massive shock, like someone who went in a coma in the 90s and woke up after the WTC attacks but far worse.

I will say at the very least I'm looking forward to the next episode. Maybe give a full after action report once its all said and done.
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Re: Netflix- Marvel's Iron Fist *potential spoilers*

Post by General Zod »

I tried watching it. But everything in the first episode made me cringe. It's like they repackaged a bunch of 80s ninja tropes and tried to sell it as a modern show.
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Re: Netflix- Marvel's Iron Fist *potential spoilers*

Post by streetad »

Seen the first three episodes. It's alright, it hasn't lost my interest as quickly as Luke Cage did.

Danny does come across a bit like a wealthy gap year student who won't shut up about his six months backpacking round the Far East but that has been on the right side of tolerable so far.
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Re: Netflix- Marvel's Iron Fist *potential spoilers*

Post by Gandalf »

Well that was... middling.

Everyone in that show is an unlikable mess. At no point was I really given a reason to care about the rich white billionaire, or the... whatever the fuck everyone else was.
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Re: Netflix- Marvel's Iron Fist *potential spoilers*

Post by Tsyroc »

I'm to about episode 8. Like most of the Netflix Marvel shows I can only go so long before I have to take a bit of a break. With Iron Fist I'm not sure how long it'll be until I feel like going back to watch the rest.

I think Vendetta covers the issues with this show very well, and I agree with General Zod that the first episode was pretty cringe worthy.

Out of the Netflix shows this was the one I was least looking forward to when it was announced. Part of that is I've never been an Iron Fist fan. He's good partnered with Luke Cage but on his own he's kind of blah. He's a not that interesting martial artist who has very limited use of his additional super power (at one time I think it used to be once a day but I'm pretty sure it is more often now). When they announced this show my first thought was, "well, they better do a really good job on the martial arts choreography", which they really haven't. Some of it is pretty decent later on but often is followed by fight scenes that backslide to being terrible.

I think part of what has kept me going on the show was wondering what the actual deal is with Madame Gao, and after reading some of the speculation about that, I'm not as interested as I was with what I had presumed in my head.

Overall I think the cast is decent enough. The show has a few good ideas that are kind of cool but I keep thinking they needed a better show runner or maybe better directors to push it up a few notches from where it is. It's not really horrible but not as good as the previous shows. So far it's about Daredevil season 2 would be without The Punisher except that Danny hasn't moved into total asshole mode over his obsession like Matt did so he's still mostly likeable.

One thing that has really annoyed me about this show is Spoiler
why the fuck didn't Claire get Danny and Matt Murdock together? She knows both of them and knows that both want to fight The Hand. It just makes no sense without giving some reason Matt is off the table.
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Re: Netflix- Marvel's Iron Fist *potential spoilers*

Post by Gaidin »

Tsyroc wrote:Spoiler
why the fuck didn't Claire get Danny and Matt Murdock together? She knows both of them and knows that both want to fight The Hand. It just makes no sense without giving some reason Matt is off the table.
Given the cast of Defenders you're practically describing that. The way the producers have described both the shows and the movies there was always a supporting character anchoring them(Phil Coulson for the movies, Claire for the Netflix shows), but they always had to have their show and make it to their proverbial Avengers before major characters get to casually start hopping around. The Defenders is basically their Avengers movie, and then they hope to have more potential to have character stories branch out more.
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Re: Netflix- Marvel's Iron Fist *potential spoilers*

Post by Gandalf »

Gaidin wrote:Given the cast of Defenders you're practically describing that. The way the producers have described both the shows and the movies there was always a supporting character anchoring them(Phil Coulson for the movies, Claire for the Netflix shows), but they always had to have their show and make it to their proverbial Avengers before major characters get to casually start hopping around. The Defenders is basically their Avengers movie, and then they hope to have more potential to have character stories branch out more.
Luke Cage was a major part of Jessica Jones, so there's a good precedent for series hopping heroes.
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Re: Netflix- Marvel's Iron Fist *potential spoilers*

Post by Gaidin »

Gandalf wrote:
Gaidin wrote:Given the cast of Defenders you're practically describing that. The way the producers have described both the shows and the movies there was always a supporting character anchoring them(Phil Coulson for the movies, Claire for the Netflix shows), but they always had to have their show and make it to their proverbial Avengers before major characters get to casually start hopping around. The Defenders is basically their Avengers movie, and then they hope to have more potential to have character stories branch out more.
Luke Cage was a major part of Jessica Jones, so there's a good precedent for series hopping heroes.
And Luke Cage was in JJ's one major inspiring comic there's a good god damn reason he was in her show and nobody else has hopped around the season 1 show. He's not good precedent.
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Re: Netflix- Marvel's Iron Fist *potential spoilers*

Post by Gandalf »

What's in the comic is irrelevant to the television show. What works in one medium may not always work in another, so saying "it's in the comics" is a bullshit excuse at best.
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Re: Netflix- Marvel's Iron Fist *potential spoilers*

Post by Gaidin »

Now you're just being downright stupid. Luke Cage is a major relationship character for her in Alias just like Kilgrave is a major source of her issues. Cutting him as an ally is like cutting Kilgrave as the bad guy in the first season. YOU CAN'T and have it be Jessica Jones. It's like cutting Foggy in Daredevil. It's like cutting Misty Knight in Luke Cage. It's like cutting Colleen Wing in Iron Fist. These things just don't work. Anybody who's read Alias will tell you this and your whims for the structure of Netflix will tell you you're choosing bad precedent and there's a reason the producers are saying exactly what I said they're saying.

However, for Iron Fist, you can always downgrade from Defenders and do Iron Fist. You can always downgrade from Heroes for Hire to Iron Fist. Guess what this god damn was. Iron Fist. It was season god damn one of Iron Fist which has a few key required characters, just like a lot of other seasons did. Now what you're going to do is go read Alias and tell me how you lose Luke Cage without messing shit up as a character arrangement. Get over this fact and find a better example that's not literally in the structure of the character.

One thing that people are going to have to live with is that bitching about Daredevil not being around to help with the Hand in a season that's about the origin of the Iron Fist is just bitching. Some stories are not about some characters, and other stories are about all characters.
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Re: Netflix- Marvel's Iron Fist *potential spoilers*

Post by Gandalf »

:lol:

It's a different universe, with its own continuity. That means that they get to play with things either through necessity or desire. Why does your appeal to source material carry weight greater than "Ghostbusters are men!" whiners that appear whenever something is adapted?
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Re: Netflix- Marvel's Iron Fist *potential spoilers*

Post by Crazedwraith »

Gandalf wrote::lol:

It's a different universe, with its own continuity. That means that they get to play with things either through necessity or desire. Why does your appeal to source material carry weight greater than "Ghostbusters are men!" whiners that appear whenever something is adapted?
I agree that you should do new things with adaptions and not be hobbled by the source material.

But if you boil it down to the point that Iron Fist should be about Iron Fist and not Daredevil and do you disagree?
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Re: Netflix- Marvel's Iron Fist *potential spoilers*

Post by FireNexus »

This show is fucking incredibly boring. And worse, it is triggering my SJW fiancé into a frothing rage (rightfully so) with its constant bows to fucking rich white privelege. It took four Netflix series for Marvel to hand me a protagonist I want to see lose horribly, but they managed it.
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Re: Netflix- Marvel's Iron Fist *potential spoilers*

Post by Broomstick »

Yeah, c'mon Marvel - there was clearly a time when the superhero meme was "rich white guy engaging in a crime-fighting hobby" but that just doesn't have the appeal it once did. Part of what makes Matt Murdock, Jessica Jones, and Luke Cage interesting is that they were originally ordinary folks of humble (even very humble) origins who gained powers and had to learn to deal with them. I'm only two episodes in, but the "rich white guy" origin of Danny Rand is not something that is appealing to me, and I'm finding it a bit difficult to give a fuck. I'll give it a bit more time, but I'm not entirely pleased with this.

Hey, can't win them all. Marvel still has a stunning and stellar track record in recent years, if this is a bit of stinker it's not going to put me off Marvel works in general.
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Re: Netflix- Marvel's Iron Fist *potential spoilers*

Post by Tsyroc »

Gaidin wrote: One thing that people are going to have to live with is that bitching about Daredevil not being around to help with the Hand in a season that's about the origin of the Iron Fist is just bitching. Some stories are not about some characters, and other stories are about all characters.
My problem with DD not getting involved is that there was a possible link through Claire and they both hate The Hand. It would have thrown everything all out of whack for Iron Fist to be partnered with DD before Luke Cage so I am with you on it just being the Iron Fist show. I just think that in the situation the show put him in there should have been some reason why Claire didn't mention DD, or why he wasn't available to help.
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Re: Netflix- Marvel's Iron Fist *potential spoilers*

Post by Tsyroc »

Gandalf wrote:
Gaidin wrote:Given the cast of Defenders you're practically describing that. The way the producers have described both the shows and the movies there was always a supporting character anchoring them(Phil Coulson for the movies, Claire for the Netflix shows), but they always had to have their show and make it to their proverbial Avengers before major characters get to casually start hopping around. The Defenders is basically their Avengers movie, and then they hope to have more potential to have character stories branch out more.
Luke Cage was a major part of Jessica Jones, so there's a good precedent for series hopping heroes.

I was disappointed that she didn't make at least a cameo in Luke's shows. Granted he was laying low and had moved to Harlem but after being in JJ's show it seemed like she should have gotten a flashback or something in his show.


Also, Hogarth is tying the shows together a bit. Not as much as Claire but she's in a few of them.
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Re: Netflix- Marvel's Iron Fist *potential spoilers*

Post by Gandalf »

Crazedwraith wrote:
Gandalf wrote::lol:

It's a different universe, with its own continuity. That means that they get to play with things either through necessity or desire. Why does your appeal to source material carry weight greater than "Ghostbusters are men!" whiners that appear whenever something is adapted?
I agree that you should do new things with adaptions and not be hobbled by the source material.

But if you boil it down to the point that Iron Fist should be about Iron Fist and not Daredevil and do you disagree?
About him in that he's the focus of the story, sure. But that still leaves plenty of room for others to join.
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Re: Netflix- Marvel's Iron Fist *potential spoilers*

Post by Vendetta »

Gaidin wrote:Guess what this god damn was.
Arrow

It was Arrow but worse.

And seriously, this show shat all over actual Iron Fist continuity in favour of kludging the Hand in, except now they're inconsistent with their last appearances because Madame Gao was previously totally seperate from Nobu and the Hand and likely being set up to be from one of the Heavenly Cities, but now she's also in the Hand because apparently fucking everyone is in the Hand.

Actual parts of Iron Fist continuity, like the Bride of Nine Spiders, one of the other Immortal Weapons, is just a disposable five minute mook who works for, yep, the Hand.

Zhou Cheng, sworn to hunt down and kill every incarnation of the Iron Fist, champion of C'in Lin, is just a disposable five minute mook who works for the Hand. (And is the only person on screen at any point who can convincingly sell a martial arts action scene).

Iron Fist himself is actually just K'un L'un's bouncer whose job is to keep the Hand out.
Luke Cage is a major relationship character for her in Alias just like Kilgrave is a major source of her issues.
Let's be clear here. If there is one person who has a major ongoing interpersonal relationship with Luke Cage, it's Danny Rand. They're one of the most enduring friendships and partnerships in Marvel comics.

The fact that Luke Cage and Iron Fist have been the weakest series so far makes it damn evident that they shouldn't have tried for seperate series, they should have just straight up done Heroes for Hire.
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Re: Netflix- Marvel's Iron Fist *potential spoilers*

Post by Gaidin »

Vendetta wrote:
Let's be clear here. If there is one person who has a major ongoing interpersonal relationship with Luke Cage, it's Danny Rand. They're one of the most enduring friendships and partnerships in Marvel comics.

The fact that Luke Cage and Iron Fist have been the weakest series so far makes it damn evident that they shouldn't have tried for seperate series, they should have just straight up done Heroes for Hire.
let's be clear here. I'm all for season 2 of one of there shows just BEING heroes for hire, but you will never need it to be. You could NEVER do season 1 of JJ without Luke or some funky equivalent the way they had to replace Ms Marvel. But she's pretty much level 1 easy to figure out a way. Luke? You're doing some batshit crazy writing acrobatics and I doubt anyone is willing to argue the point given their personal relationship.
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Re: Netflix- Marvel's Iron Fist *potential spoilers*

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Vendetta wrote:The fact that Luke Cage and Iron Fist have been the weakest series so far makes it damn evident that they shouldn't have tried for seperate series, they should have just straight up done Heroes for Hire.
I thought Luke Cage was the strongest. And even to the extent that it wasn't, it isn't in the same universe of suck as Iron Fist.

Iron Fist sucks a golf ball through a garden hose. Iron Fist sucks like Finn Jones sucks at pretending he knows martial arts. Iron Fist sucks with the force of a singularity just past the event horizon. Iron Fist sucks such that other shows will vicariously suck through it for generations.

Seriously. It's just mean to classify any of the other Defenders shows anywhere near as terrible as iron fist. Even the next worst one is actually pretty good, whereas Iron Fist is in no way close to that.
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Re: Netflix- Marvel's Iron Fist *potential spoilers*

Post by Vendetta »

It's hard to see Luke Cage as the strongest series overall, with how poor Diamondback turned out to be and how much he hijacked way more interesting characters like Mariah.

Okay, it might not have been too far behind Daredevil season 2, which was mostly elevated by the bits that weren't about Daredevil. And no, it was nowhere near as bad as Iron Fist, but it had some serious fumbles.
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Re: Netflix- Marvel's Iron Fist *potential spoilers*

Post by Gandalf »

FireNexus wrote:Seriously. It's just mean to classify any of the other Defenders shows anywhere near as terrible as iron fist. Even the next worst one is actually pretty good, whereas Iron Fist is in no way close to that.
I hold Daredevil season two to be worse, if only because Elektra was irritating and the Hand storylike was boring as fuck. Endless zombie ninjas!
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Re: Netflix- Marvel's Iron Fist *potential spoilers*

Post by Gaidin »

I more had problems with the sudden DD2 Act shifts as opposed to the characters. The other shows just handled dramatic structure smoother. INCLUDING Iron Fist, whatever its other problems were. DD2 was jarring at times though the acting was good. IRon Fist had a much steadier story though the acting and other elements were awkward. Same thing happened in LC....sudden shift from Cottonmouth was jarring for a few episodes.
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