Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

[The Romulan Republic]

There were two things that always suggested to me that many Wizards in Harry Potter are incompetent. In book two most of the school for some research feels that Harry is the heir of Slytherin only realizing how dumb that is after his muggle born best friend is attacked. Then we have in book 4 people who believe Rita Skeeter even the characters who have stated all her stories are lies.

I would point out that a significant percentage of the US populace honestly believes Barrack Obama is a Secret Muslim and that Hillary Clinton ran a pedophile pizza joint. Just saying.

Like others have said, wizards do not have a monopoly on staggering idiocy.

[Simon_Jester]

So... Potterverse wizards are stupid because their schoolchildren are prone to believe nasty rumors about a fellow student, even if they don't normally trust the source?

Uh, I've got some bad news for you about the rest of humanity in real life, then, Hunter...

It isn't some much the people believing the story it is people who have declared the author a liar multiple times believing one of her stories.

Again, if you think people can't do that kind of an about-face and start believing a person they used to think was a liar, in the face of peer pressure and various circumstances...

You must be terribly disappointed by real life. I am sorry for you.

[hunter5]

So... Potterverse wizards are stupid because their schoolchildren are prone to believe nasty rumors about a fellow student, even if they don't normally trust the source?

Uh, I've got some bad news for you about the rest of humanity in real life, then, Hunter...

It isn't some much the people believing the story it is people who have declared the author a liar multiple times believing one of her stories.

Again, if you think people can't do that kind of an about-face and start believing a person they used to think was a liar, in the face of peer pressure and various circumstances...

You must be terribly disappointed by real life. I am sorry for you.

Even when it is about people you know personally?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Except most of the students who turned on Harry didn't know him personally, only by reputation. Up until book 5 or so he basically only has Ron and Hermione as close friends, with Neville, Ginny and Fred/George on the fringes as friends but not close ones.

[hunter5]

Except most of the students who turned on Harry didn't know him personally, only by reputation. Up until book 5 or so he basically only has Ron and Hermione as close friends, with Neville, Ginny and Fred/George on the fringes as friends but not close ones.

I was referring to Mrs Wesley beleving the article saying Harry and Hermonie where dating and Hermonie was two timing.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Ah, I see. Still, even then, how well does Mrs Weasley really know Hermione by that point? A few days around her before the trio's 3rd year and maybe a couple weeks before 4th year. Not a huge amount of time, especially if she's been an avid reader of Rita Skeeter for years and trusts what she writes.

She knows Harry better, naturally, which is presumably why she blames Hermione and not him.

[The Romulan Republic]

I wonder if Mrs. Weasley's blaming Hermione was partly a result of latent cultural prejudices against Muggleborns.

[Eternal_Freedom]

That may be part of it, plus the fact that the wizarding world seems to be about 50+ years behind the Muggle world socially, so blaming the woman may be a natural impulse as well.

[Crazedwraith]

Or she blamed Hermione because Hermione was the one the article made out to be in the wrong? No more, no less.

[The Romulan Republic]

That may be part of it, plus the fact that the wizarding world seems to be about 50+ years behind the Muggle world socially, so blaming the woman may be a natural impulse as well.

Now, this I think is incorrect.

The Wizarding World, or at least Wizarding Britain, is despotic and bigoted, but their's no real evidence that they care nearly as much about gender (or skin colour for that matter), and quite a bit of evidence that they don't. As I recall, the Pottermore article on the history of the past Ministers for Magic had a number of female Ministers, and going off the Fantastic Beasts film, Wizarding America had a black woman as its leader in the 1920s.

It may be a consequence of a society based on magic- all they really care about is magical ability, and magical heritage (due largely to the centuries-old division between Wizards and Muggles).

Though given the emphasis on pure blood heritage and continuing the family, it wouldn't surprise me if the older pure bloods thought women should stay home and make pure blood babies, either. But then, how does one explain Bellatrix Lestrange?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Bellatrix was powerful, mad and useful to Voldemort, that probably got her a pass.

[The Romulan Republic]

That might be so, but at the same time, gender-based and racial discrimination seems to be less of an issue in the Wizarding World, or at least in Britain and America.

To be honest, I think this is a fan fiction brain bug, that the Wizards have to be regressive in every way the Muggle world was/is, just because they're regressive in certain ways.

[Elheru Aran]

There's always odd ducks, and Bellatrix is odd if nothing else. I suspect that in Muggle society, she'd have been just as likely to stand out.

I suspect 'continuing the family' is less of an issue when you can more or less just whip up a potion to *guarantee* conceiving, likely, and streamline pregnancy. And with magical medicine, surviving battles is less of a concern. So maintaining a stable family lineage probably isn't a problem as long as you find a willing spouse.

Part of the problem is that most of what we see of HP society is a short glimpse of the Weasleys and the Lovegoods. The Malfoys, when we see them, are in an extremely atypical situation (their home being set up as Death Eater Central). Everything else is either Hogwarts, an extremely structured and artificial situation, or the Ministry of Magic, a strongly bureaucratic situation. So we have pretty little to judge what society in the British wizarding world is like; the Daily Prophet articles that get quoted are perhaps useful, but only very broadly.

The Weasleys are probably about as typical as one can get, but they're still 'outsiders' to some degree as they're on the poorer end of society... something which doesn't matter to most people (though the kids are embarrassed about their poor quality robes and used books), but which the upper-class old-money Malfoys take casual advantage of to sneer at them.

[The Romulan Republic]

The thing about Bellatrix is that, while she's not the stay at home type, she's still kind of an anti-feminist.

I mean... arguably the character's primary motivation is her utter, pathological devotion and loyalty to a powerful man who treats her like shit and is incapable of really giving a damn about her.

[Elheru Aran]

You're asking insanity to make sense. Doesn't work that way.

[The Romulan Republic]

Not at all. Of course it doesn't make sense. I'm just pointing out that Bellatrix's characterization is of a woman who is subordinate to an abusive man, if you're looking for signs of cultural sexism in the Harry Potter universe.

Of course, you could argue that this is true of a lot of the fanatic Death Eaters, regardless of gender. Though Bellatrix's loyalty arguably always seemed to have more of a sexual component Spoiler

(confirmed by Cursed Child).

[Elheru Aran]

My only reaction to that is 'ew'.

Anyway. Point is, the HP books are pretty shit at setting up background for Wizarding Britain. Society, culture, what have you-- the books are the story of a near-Muggle being more or less forcibly thrust into an almost completely foreign environment that is atypical even for itself-- he's in a school which isn't the same as the 'outside world', said outside world is affected powerfully by the recent terrorist acts of Voldemort to the point that they're afraid of even saying his name after they believe he's dead, etc. And with the books being our only example, apart from the movies which aren't much help in themselves, we simply can't say much with certainty one way or the other.

[Tribble]

Sooooo, what do you think is Dumbledore's single greatest mistake?

[The Romulan Republic]

Greatest mistake...

Hard to say, because we don't know all the details of his plans going on in the background, and a lot of what we do know is dependent on a maybe-real near-death experience. But I can see at least three major contenders.

1. Leaving Harry with the Dursleys without providing more oversight into his treatment/living conditions. Harry turned out remarkably well-adjusted, I suspect, for a chronically abused and neglected child. Even leaving aside the obvious moral considerations, Dumbledore got really lucky that that didn't fuck up his strategy.

2. Trying to pass the Elder Wand off to Snape. I don't know, but I doubt it would have counted for Snape to kill him when Dumbledore let him do it. Seems an obvious blunder.

3. Not providing better self-defence training to Harry. Even if he was never intended to duel Voldemort to the finish, he had to survive long enough to ensure the rest of the plan worked out, and since the plan didn't actually depend on Harry dying (at least past book four), but just being willing to sacrifice himself, giving him the best chance possible would be the right thing to do.

My only reaction to that is 'ew'.

Yeah, I don't think Voldemort fucking is an image anyone needs.

Anyway. Point is, the HP books are pretty shit at setting up background for Wizarding Britain. Society, culture, what have you-- the books are the story of a near-Muggle being more or less forcibly thrust into an almost completely foreign environment that is atypical even for itself-- he's in a school which isn't the same as the 'outside world', said outside world is affected powerfully by the recent terrorist acts of Voldemort to the point that they're afraid of even saying his name after they believe he's dead, etc. And with the books being our only example, apart from the movies which aren't much help in themselves, we simply can't say much with certainty one way or the other.

This is part of what I enjoy, and am looking forward to seeing more of, in the Fantastic Beasts movies- more of an opportunity for world-building, in a more entertaining format than looking up and reading articles on Pottermore.

[The Romulan Republic]

As to how Dumbledore could have fixed these mistakes...

Well, I'm sure every conceivable alternative has been explored (with varying degrees of logic and competency) in fan fic, but my choices would be:

Blunder One- Really, Harry shouldn't have been left with the Dursleys. Is their really nowhere that Dumbledore could make comparably secure? But if it really is necessary, Dumbledore should have at least dropped by now and then to keep an eye on things, or sent one of his operatives.

Blunder Two- No real way I can see to fix this, except to not make Snape the obvious inheritor for the Elder Wand so Voldemort won't off him for it.

Blunder Three- Well, getting competent Defence teachers consistently is probably too much to hope for, but, I don't know, arrange for Lupin to tutor Harry in self-defence every summer. Should help somewhat with problem number one, too.

[FaxModem1]

Here's another question, if Dumbledore became Minister of Magic, how would things be different regarding the war?

[The Romulan Republic]

Some things are fairly easy to guess based on his advice to Fudge in Goblet of Fire: Acknowledge Voldemort's return at once, remove the Dementors from Azkaban (probably would require the recruitment of more Aurors to replace them), and envoys to the giants. Weather he'd be able to retain office after doing those things is questionable.

Depending on when he becomes Minister, Lucius might never weasel his way out of Azkaban, and Sirius might get a trial, which means Pettigrew might just get exposed more than a decade sooner. Either of those could have huge effects on the course of events.

No Umbridge bullshit, obviously, though he'd be less able to spend time personally protecting Hogwarts (and McGonnagle likely becomes Headmistress). He'd also be less able to personally go horcrux hunting, which might extend his life span, and the time it takes Voldemort to seize the Ministry, but also extend the war.

And he'd likely be less able to meet with Harry without public scrutiny, obviously.

[hunter5]

Blunder 1: there really wasn't any way around leaving Harry with the Dursleys as there was ancient magic around that even Voldermort admitted he couldn't get around. Though I agree a check in would have been nice but not really sure what they could have done that wouldn't risk Harry being taken from the house and ruining his protection.

Blunder 2: This was more a blunder on Voldermort then Dumbledore.

Blunder 3: The most magicial practice they could do outside of school would be reading spellbooks what with the law against underage magic and wouldn't really need a tutor for that.

[Crazedwraith]

2. Trying to pass the Elder Wand off to Snape. I don't know, but I doubt it would have counted for Snape to kill him when Dumbledore let him do it. Seems an obvious blunder...

He didn't? The plan was for Snape to kill him but since it was agreed that he was going to that. He wouldn't have 'defeated' Dumbledore in the wandlore sense and the power of the Elder Wand would be broken.

This is Harry's plan at the end of the book as well. Which is epically stupid on his part since he becomes an Auror. Especially announcing it to everyone in the final battle that he is the master of it.

Really the film having him snapping it outright is one of the few improvements they made.

My only reaction to that is 'ew'.

Yeah, I don't think Voldemort fucking is an image anyone needs.

Don't kink shame. Or visit any fanfiction archive.

[Simon_Jester]

Some things are fairly easy to guess based on his advice to Fudge in Goblet of Fire: Acknowledge Voldemort's return at once, remove the Dementors from Azkaban (probably would require the recruitment of more Aurors to replace them), and envoys to the giants. Weather he'd be able to retain office after doing those things is questionable.

What would you do with the Dementors after removing them? As I understand it, they can't be destroyed, and they really like Dementing people. It's kind of unclear whether Azkaban is imprisoning the prisoners, or for the Dementors. Maybe both.