SDN Discussion: Population & Social Issues in Harry Potter

[Alyrium Denryle]

Oh!

I am posting from my phone right now so this won't be long. But my population estimate was wrong. Wizard lifespans are much longer than muggles. Double the life expectancy. So the age structure is greatly elongated. Double my original estimate to 50k

[Alyrium Denryle]

Another possibility with regard to native americans struck me, while discussing the matter with some friends.

It is possible they died from Disease. The European wizards they had contact with were not carriers, because they would have nipped that in the bud with magic pretty early. So it might not ever have occurred to them to A) teach the native american wizards the relevant potions, B) make sure they had the ingredients necessary.

No matter how good their potions were, they also did not have a theory of disease so they had no idea how any of them spread.

My thinking is this. Yes, native americans are good at potions at transmutation. But you still have to have the anti-smallpox/TB/influenza/cholera/typhoid/typhus/black death potion handy. Smallpox is a zoonotic disease, and the animals that spread it are not in the new world. The ingredients for the potions might also not be in the new world.

By the time the north american continent was settled, the places the colonists landed on were effectively wastelands (which might explain why the European wizards founded their own shadow government. They might have thought they were simply immigrating, but they arrived and everyone was already dead, this is supported by the Ilvermory origin story, because that area was TEAMING with natives before the Columbian Exchange). The original european explorers had already introduced the diseases by accident, and the local tribes had already been decimated. Even without direct European contact, the diseases will spread. Hell, native american wizards with their greater travel abilities would have been more efficient carriers.

Communications will be limited. Native American wizards probably dont have an artificer tradition (they dont even use wands in this period) and most tribes did not even have a written language for owl transmission. The diseases spread faster than the Europeans did by a significant margin and from all directions. By 1639, the wave of disease had hit everything east of Lake Huron. So by the time large numbers of Wizards start migrating in the late 17th century, it is already too late. The disease has outrun anything they could have done.

There were never that many European wizards to begin with in the Americas during this early period, so even if they mobilized to try to stop the epidemic diseases (by teaching the native wizards how to brew the potions and save their own population while maintaining plausible deniability), it is too late. They cannot produce potions on an industrial scale. By the time the local Shaman (even with assistance) has brewed enough, the damage is done. And then the next disease (TB) hits, and the next tribe down the river is already dying.

It was not forced relocation and genocide that killed most native americans. It was new diseases that, most of the time, were not spread intentionally. No matter what policies the Europeans pursued, barring FORCING the muggles to stop moving west, the Native population drops to 10% of what it was prior to Columbus.

[Elheru Aran]

...

That just made me realize something interesting...

Does the Wizarding world have a grasp of scientific theory?

Bear with me:

--They've been accustomed to using 'Potions' and magic in general to do healing for centuries, if not longer, with apparently a pretty high success rate. This would tend to prevent them from bothering to keep up with developments in Muggle medicine. It's quite possible that the wizarding population knows nothing about vaccination, for example. When you can just wave a wand, mumble some silly words and pour some sauce down your patient's throat and they get better literally overnight, why bother? But remove that wand and that sauce... what do you have?

Madame Pomfrey's ward in Hogwarts is little removed from the medieval-- just lines of beds and some curtains. No X-rays. No monitoring equipment of any kind. No blood pressure monitors. No IV's.

Certainly there's a question of "if they can do it better, why should they bother"... which leads to below:

--They can do almost everything with magic slightly better than we can with technology... but when they do encounter technology, their understanding of it is rudimentary for the most part (some are better than others). They do seem to have seized upon the film camera, for example, and improved it by making it so you can develop literal moving pictures... but it can't be an *electric* camera, apparently, because magic does Bad Things to electronics. Which is very interesting in its own right (and inconsistent, btw, IIRC). Colin Creevey's camera is specifically said to use flash-bulbs (there's some prop makers out there who would be very interested in that flash-gun if it's a Graflex...).

They have cargo-culted magical equivalents to technology in some parts of the wizarding world. The Ministry, for example, has what amount to magical desktop computers. They're not *totally* ignorant of technology, but they either don't understand how it works (see any of Mr. Weasley's queries toward Harry) or they *think* they understand how it works. Which follows on to next part:

--Their understanding of the Muggle world ranges from pretty decent to almost nil. The Minister himself probably has a reasonable understanding, but other wizards have a understanding that ranges from the farcial (see the pair of wizards at the Quidditch World Cup arguing over wearing *pants* versus robes) to the actually perceptive (Dumbledore, of course... is there anything he couldn't do). It brings into question quite strongly how much they bother to keep up with technological advancement, scientific progress, the field of medicine, etc. Which makes me wonder:

--How do they develop new magic? New Potions? How much originality is there in their world?

Look at Sectumsempra; the staff are appalled when Harry pulls it out, not only because it's a Curse, but also because they've never seen it before. It's *new* (to all of them except Snape, of course, because he's the one who came up with it). Almost all their learning is rote memorization-- so-and-so spell to do this, this-and-that potion to do this-- the only originality being in individual metrics such as wand gestures, volume, and whatnot. There's some-- very slim-- territory for individual creativity, but part of the problem is that the vast bulk of magic relies upon stuff that they've done for centuries if not millennia.

Expelliarmus, for example; the one spell has worked for that long, they don't need another spell to do the same thing. Even the Unforgivable Curses suffer from the same problem; we don't hear about methods of magically killing someone other than Avada Kedavra (and I *have* to think that there are other ways to kill someone with magic, but why is there only one specific Killing Curse?).

There doesn't seem to be any kind of Spells Research and Development department at the Ministry. There's a Department of Muggle Affairs, but it mostly seems to consist of Arthur Weasley tinkering with Muggle electronics. It doesn't look like there's anybody, for example, sitting down with a wand and reading words off a list while he or she waves the wand to see what happens with specific words. There's a Magical Theory class in first year (according to background material in the film), Hermione owns the book. But what does it consist of? Is there any way laid out for people to research and develop new spells, potions, counter-curses, and all that?

Thoughts? Comments?

[Alyrium Denryle]

Also the subject of yesterday's conversation with my nerd buddies.

--They've been accustomed to using 'Potions' and magic in general to do healing for centuries, if not longer, with apparently a pretty high success rate. This would tend to prevent them from bothering to keep up with developments in Muggle medicine. It's quite possible that the wizarding population knows nothing about vaccination, for example. When you can just wave a wand, mumble some silly words and pour some sauce down your patient's throat and they get better literally overnight, why bother? But remove that wand and that sauce... what do you have?

Madame Pomfrey's ward in Hogwarts is little removed from the medieval-- just lines of beds and some curtains. No X-rays. No monitoring equipment of any kind. No blood pressure monitors. No IV's.

Certainly there's a question of "if they can do it better, why should they bother"... which leads to below:

I am pretty sure a lot of that can actually be done magically. They get cancer just like everyone else, heart disease just like everyone else, they develop schizophrenia just like everyone else, and still actually catch muggle diseases just like everyone else. They have to be able to diagnose and treat all of those which does require imaging and other diagnostic tests, but those diagnostic tests can probably be done with spells. We just dont see them being used because the usual injuries are broken arms and magical maladies of various sorts.

You dont need an X ray when you can wave your wand and say "Oclulus transpectra"

--They can do almost everything with magic slightly better than we can with technology... but when they do encounter technology, their understanding of it is rudimentary for the most part (some are better than others). They do seem to have seized upon the film camera, for example, and improved it by making it so you can develop literal moving pictures... but it can't be an *electric* camera, apparently, because magic does Bad Things to electronics. Which is very interesting in its own right (and inconsistent, btw, IIRC). Colin Creevey's camera is specifically said to use flash-bulbs (there's some prop makers out there who would be very interested in that flash-gun if it's a Graflex...).

They have cargo-culted magical equivalents to technology in some parts of the wizarding world. The Ministry, for example, has what amount to magical desktop computers. They're not *totally* ignorant of technology, but they either don't understand how it works (see any of Mr. Weasley's queries toward Harry) or they *think* they understand how it works. Which follows on to next part:

Some of it is is cultural isolation, I think. They have to keep track of a hell of a lot. Two different worlds basically, if they want to really understand muggle technology, and I think that most of them just cannot do it. Their society is entirely parallel.

For the long-running wizarding families there is not going to be a great deal of exposure either. For muggleborns, there will be, and there will be for people who marry into muggle families.

But Muggle Studies seems like it is stigmatized in the ministry (because muggle-hating pure bloods hold the balance of political power in the era we see), so those who are actually good at their jobs dont rise through the ranks and dont disseminate what they find out very well.

--How do they develop new magic? New Potions? How much originality is there in their world?

Look at Sectumsempra; the staff are appalled when Harry pulls it out, not only because it's a Curse, but also because they've never seen it before. It's *new* (to all of them except Snape, of course, because he's the one who came up with it). Almost all their learning is rote memorization-- so-and-so spell to do this, this-and-that potion to do this-- the only originality being in individual metrics such as wand gestures, volume, and whatnot. There's some-- very slim-- territory for individual creativity, but part of the problem is that the vast bulk of magic relies upon stuff that they've done for centuries if not millennia.

I saw it a bit differently. It is new, they had never seen it before and from Harry. How the hell would he pick that one up, even, if THEY did not know about it?

That is how I read it. Yeah, lots of their spell learning is rote, much like a lot of my own education is just learning what others have done. Going back centuries. They are not training magical theorists there--that comes later--they are giving people the extensive personal toolbox they need to function in their magical society. A toolbox that has to be stored in their own heads.

Expelliarmus, for example; the one spell has worked for that long, they don't need another spell to do the same thing. Even the Unforgivable Curses suffer from the same problem; we don't hear about methods of magically killing someone other than Avada Kedavra (and I *have* to think that there are other ways to kill someone with magic, but why is there only one specific Killing Curse?).

There are absolutely other lethal spells. Molly Weasely killed Bellatrix with one such spell. It basically turned her to glass and shattered her. There are other spells that are plenty lethal. Bombardo Maxima, any of the fire spells, intentionally botch a transmutation, Sectumsempra kill cause them to bleed out (that is what killed Snape if I recall). The list goes on . Hit someone with Expelliarmus hard enough and slam them into a stone wall. Speaking of which, there are plenty of other spells that do roughly the same thing.

Avada Dedavra however is just special. It rips their soul out.

There doesn't seem to be any kind of Spells Research and Development department at the Ministry. There's a Department of Muggle Affairs, but it mostly seems to consist of Arthur Weasley tinkering with Muggle electronics. It doesn't look like there's anybody, for example, sitting down with a wand and reading words off a list while he or she waves the wand to see what happens with specific words. There's a Magical Theory class in first year (according to background material in the film), Hermione owns the book. But what does it consist of? Is there any way laid out for people to research and develop new spells, potions, counter-curses, and all that?

The ministry of magic has two research departments. The Committee on Experimental Charms, and the Ministry of Magic research committee.

They also have a sufficient understanding of the atmosphere to want to regulate atmospheric charms due to their long-term environmental effects.

Which brings me to another thing. I would hazard a guess that at least some wizards (likely muggleborns and the like) who DO have some grasp of at least the principles of muggle science and the non-magical laws of nature, even if they go about studying them in a completely different way (because you dont need a massive laser when you have an interferometer spell). I do seem to recall seeing a wizard at some point reading A Brief History of Time while casually stirring a potion...

That knowledge might be rather specialized, but it is likely present.

[The Romulan Republic]

I am pretty sure a lot of that can actually be done magically. They get cancer just like everyone else, heart disease just like everyone else, they develop schizophrenia just like everyone else, and still actually catch muggle diseases just like everyone else.

Do we know that?

Their are some indications that wizards are more durable than typical humans, and I don't recall any mention of anyone in the series getting a mundane illness.

They have to be able to diagnose and treat all of those which does require imaging and other diagnostic tests, but those diagnostic tests can probably be done with spells. We just dont see them being used because the usual injuries are broken arms and magical maladies of various sorts.

Maybe.

Certainly they can do a lot with magic.

Some of it is is cultural isolation, I think. They have to keep track of a hell of a lot. Two different worlds basically, if they want to really understand muggle technology, and I think that most of them just cannot do it. Their society is entirely parallel.

For the long-running wizarding families there is not going to be a great deal of exposure either. For muggleborns, there will be, and there will be for people who marry into muggle families.

But Muggle Studies seems like it is stigmatized in the ministry (because muggle-hating pure bloods hold the balance of political power in the era we see), so those who are actually good at their jobs dont rise through the ranks and dont disseminate what they find out very well.

You know, I've said for a while that Muggle Studies ought to be a mandatory course (provided its taught properly, of course).

There are absolutely other lethal spells. Molly Weasely killed Bellatrix with one such spell. It basically turned her to glass and shattered her.

Only in the film. Its implied that whatever she hit Bellatrix with in the books was lethal (and confirmed by Rowling I believe), but its not stated what it was exactly.

I do think we need to be careful to differentiate between book and film canon.

Although I seem to recall a line about the spells in that duel being intense enough to damage the stone work. So maybe blasting charms? Not everyone has the power and mindset to use Avada Kedavra, even putting legal and social prohibitions aside (though I vaguely recall Bellatrix using it in book six).

Although apparently even stunners can be lethal under the right circumstances- Madame Pomfrey says in book five, I think, that McGonnagle could have been killed by being hit by several stunners to the chest, given her age.

There are other spells that are plenty lethal. Bombardo Maxima, any of the fire spells, intentionally botch a transmutation, Sectumsempra kill cause them to bleed out (that is what killed Snape if I recall). The list goes on . Hit someone with Expelliarmus hard enough and slam them into a stone wall. Speaking of which, there are plenty of other spells that do roughly the same thing.

Nah, Snape was killed by Voldemort's snake (or a combination of the two, possibly, in the film).

I took that as a clever move by Voldemort- he thought Snape had the "unbeatable" Elder Wand, so attacked him by proxy rather than in a magical duel.

Avada Dedavra however is just special. It rips their soul out.

I don't recall anything definitive to that effect in canon regarding how Avada Kedavra works, and there's a bit of evidence against it removing the soul. We know something in canon that removes souls- Dementors. Their soul-sucking is explicitly described as non-lethal, though having horrible effects.

Of course, the fact that Avada Kedavra removed the fragment of Voldemort's soul from Harry would speak in favour of your theory, but that's a hell of an atypical situation.

The ministry of magic has two research departments. The Committee on Experimental Charms, and the Ministry of Magic research committee.

They also have a sufficient understanding of the atmosphere to want to regulate atmospheric charms due to their long-term environmental effects.

Source? I recall none of this being in the books.

Pottermore, maybe?

Though I was under the impression that the Department of Mysteries was a research department (for stuff that was classified/dangerous/extremely powerful/obscure).

Which brings me to another thing. I would hazard a guess that at least some wizards (likely muggleborns and the like) who DO have some grasp of at least the principles of muggle science and the non-magical laws of nature, even if they go about studying them in a completely different way (because you dont need a massive laser when you have an interferometer spell). I do seem to recall seeing a wizard at some point reading A Brief History of Time while casually stirring a potion...

That knowledge might be rather specialized, but it is likely present.

Probably.

Though recall Hermione's comment in book one about most wizards not understanding logic.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Do we know that?

Their are some indications that wizards are more durable than typical humans, and I don't recall any mention of anyone in the series getting a mundane illness.

Yes.

https://www.pottermore.com/writing-by-j ... disability

Only in the film. Its implied that whatever she hit Bellatrix with in the books was lethal (and confirmed by Rowling I believe), but its not stated what it was exactly.

I do think we need to be careful to differentiate between book and film canon.

Harry Potter is kinda unique in the sense that as a book adaptation if accurately portrays the authors vision within the limits of the medium, with her heavily involved in production.

In writing, you dont write out every spell, you simply describe magic blasting the stone work. In film, you see what the author's mental image basically was. So unless they conflict directly, film canon I think can be a reasonable substitute.

Nah, Snape was killed by Voldemort's snake (or a combination of the two, possibly, in the film).

I took that as a clever move by Voldemort- he thought Snape had the "unbeatable" Elder Wand, so attacked him by proxy rather than in a magical duel.

Hit him by surprise with a spell and finished him with the snake, yes. In the film at least, been a bit since I read the book.

I don't recall anything definitive to that effect in canon regarding how Avada Kedavra works, and there's a bit of evidence against it removing the soul. We know something in canon that removes souls- Dementors. Their soul-sucking is explicitly described as non-lethal, though having horrible effects.

Of course, the fact that Avada Kedavra removed the fragment of Voldemort's soul from Harry would speak in favour of your theory, but that's a hell of an atypical situation.

That is what I am going on, yes. That and the film visualization of Sirius Black's death.

Though it could be more basic than that. Intended use. That spell has one and only one use, killing someone. Plenty of other spells are lethal, but have multiple uses. Even turning something into glass and shattering it can be useful (say, if you need to move a rock...). So that could be it too.

Source? I recall none of this being in the books.

Pottermore, maybe?

Though I was under the impression that the Department of Mysteries was a research department (for stuff that was classified/dangerous/extremely powerful/obscure).

http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Minis ... _committee

Well sourced. Basically small lines in the various books, expanded on in various and sundry other writings.

[The Romulan Republic]

Interesting.

I think that the significance of Avada Kedavra has a lot to do with what's necessary to cast it. Not only is it a spell with only one possible use (to kill) and also unblockable by normal magical defences, but it is a spell that requires (according to Bellatrix at least) murderous intent/desire to use (and exceptional power, if I'm recalling imposter Moody's lecture in book four correctly).

No wonder they come down so hard on those who use it if the simple fact that you can cast it is proof that you are a powerful wizard who enjoys killing.

[Guardsman Bass]

You beat me to both of my points, Alyrium.

1. Wizarding demographic may be heavily skewed by wizards' increased longevity. Nobody seemed to blink an eye at Dumbledore being 150 years old in the books, and there was an OWL examiner in Book 5 who was so old that she tested Dumbledore back when he was a 5th Year Student at Hogwarts. They're obviously not immortal - otherwise there'd be no significance to the Philosopher's Stone's immortality - but they live far longer than muggles, and unmarried wizards are extremely common. In fact, most of the adult wizards we see in the books are unmarried and have no children (or have a very small number of them).

2. It's not what Rowling has written, but disease would be the big killer for native wizards in North America. Outside of a handful of empires like the Aztecs* and Incas, the native polities were pretty small in number (rarely more than 10,000-20,000 in total spread across large areas). If the rate of wizards/witches in the UK is indicative (30,000 wizards in a 64 million person population, or about 1 in 2333 people), then even a large North American native society would have no more than a handful of magically talented people. Many would go undetected and untrained, and those that did would probably be trained on a one-to-one basis drawing from local oral traditions and shamans/priests.

They'd be fucked if disease killed a bunch of the native wizards along with the native populations. With that few wizards and no written word, what magical traditions - i.e. what works and what doesn't - could easily be lost with the dead magical people. The survivors would be struggling to piece together what was left and train new people, and they'd be no match for organized bands of colonial wizards providing back-up to invaders. Or they'd simply be absorbed in the nascent, European-descent-dominated magical societies of the colonies.

* Speaking of which, the Aztec Empire was big enough for there to potentially be hundreds of wizards in the priesthood in Tenochtitlan and elsewhere. I'd expect Mexico City to be the center of magic and magic training in the Americas, especially since it was also the largest city for a long time.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Interesting.

I think that the significance of Avada Kedavra has a lot to do with what's necessary to cast it. Not only is it a spell with only one possible use (to kill) and also unblockable by normal magical defences, but it is a spell that requires (according to Bellatrix at least) murderous intent/desire to use (and exceptional power, if I'm recalling imposter Moody's lecture in book four correctly).

No wonder they come down so hard on those who use it if the simple fact that you can cast it is proof that you are a powerful wizard who enjoys killing.

And the other unforgivable curses are largely similar. You have to be a sadistic fuck to use the Cruxiatus curse, and Imperio has knockdown consequences so terrifying you cannot permit its use. Which reminds me.


For all the magical whimsy she creates, JK Rowling seems to have very intentionally created a world that is deeply dysfunctional. Like the entire society has some form of surreal dementia.

Holy Shit. The Wizarding World is a Crapsack Dystopia.
Part 1. On the legal system and Azkhaban

Ok, elephant in the room. JK Rowling named this thing as a portmanteu of Alcatraz and Abbadon, the hebrew word for Hell (which I will call it from now on, because I never spell the actual name right). It fits. The backstory is that the island was created by a dark wizard in the 16th century who who lure muggles there and torture them to death for shits and giggles. This created a paradise for Dementors who went there and started breeding. They cannot be killed. Fast forward to when that dark wizard was killed and the ministry found out about that horrible fucking place. It was full of dementors. They cannot be killed. Let me repeat that. So they had no choice but to keep the island around and eventually the dementors would run out of residual thoughts to eat and would leave for the mainland. Which would be bad. Bad bad bad when they started eating muggles. So they get a real asshole minister of magic who decides to use it as a prison. After all, the smaller prisons they were using for dark wizards were a security/secrecy risk, right? Yes they were. And no one can possibly escape from that place because they are too full of despair. Even without the dementor's kiss prisoners will fall into a depression and literally die of despair eventually.

And you know, Dark Wizards might deserve it, right? Well no. No one deserves that. But bad situation right? You have to feed the dementors.

Which of course means that any crime that warrants prison at all--mercifully given the wizarding world's capacity to fix things, this does not mean property crimes and the like--gets a one-way trip to hell.

So their punishments dont fit the crime, OK. That is a thing. But worse, when they have trials at all, those trials are a complete farce and so is their investigatory process.

Hagrid was sent there without trial in Book 2. Sirius Black was sent there without trial under dubious circumstances. He could have presented a defense successfully if he had because there was probably enough evidence to acquit in a fair court (see below), but no. No trial.

When there is a trial, it is a Star Chamber court where one's guilt or innocence is largely dependent on how well you can pull strings and favors within the ministry of magic. This is how a large number of death eaters got off.

*Pull strings*

"Oh, I was under the Imperius curse, but I am also a convenient occlumense so you cannot prove it one way or the other. I suppose you have to let me go without any security procedures to hedge against the possibility that I am lying to you."

Then there is Dolores Umbrage, caught In flagrante delicto torturing students. No punishment at all, which let her keep her position in the Ministry. It was only after the second war when there was a new minister that she was tried and executed.

And there are zero libel laws, apparently. If there were Rita Skeeter would have been sued into oblivion or sent to Hell.

[Crazedwraith]

Forget Libel laws, Rita Skeeter took advantage of vulnerable old woman and force fed her veritaserum to get information on Dumbledore in book 7. She even cops to it in the book itself. That's a restricted substance so it was illegal even by wizarding law.

[The Romulan Republic]

Interesting.

I think that the significance of Avada Kedavra has a lot to do with what's necessary to cast it. Not only is it a spell with only one possible use (to kill) and also unblockable by normal magical defences, but it is a spell that requires (according to Bellatrix at least) murderous intent/desire to use (and exceptional power, if I'm recalling imposter Moody's lecture in book four correctly).

No wonder they come down so hard on those who use it if the simple fact that you can cast it is proof that you are a powerful wizard who enjoys killing.

And the other unforgivable curses are largely similar. You have to be a sadistic fuck to use the Cruxiatus curse, and Imperio has knockdown consequences so terrifying you cannot permit its use. Which reminds me.

Of course, we should probably add the caveat that a lot of the information we have on what it takes to use an Unforgivable Curse comes from Death Eaters, and Bellatrix in particular is... not a reliable source of information (i.e., she's bat shit crazy).

There's the interesting question of how Snape was able to use Avada Kedavra on Dumbledore, if it requires enjoying/wanting hurting people to use Unforgivables like Bellatrix said. It raises the rather disturbing possibility that a part of Snape actually wanted to off Dumbledore.

For all the magical whimsy she creates, JK Rowling seems to have very intentionally created a world that is deeply dysfunctional. Like the entire society has some form of surreal dementia.

Holy Shit. The Wizarding World is a Crapsack Dystopia.
Part 1. On the legal system and Azkhaban

Ok, elephant in the room. JK Rowling named this thing as a portmanteu of Alcatraz and Abbadon, the hebrew word for Hell (which I will call it from now on, because I never spell the actual name right). It fits. The backstory is that the island was created by a dark wizard in the 16th century who who lure muggles there and torture them to death for shits and giggles. This created a paradise for Dementors who went there and started breeding. They cannot be killed. Fast forward to when that dark wizard was killed and the ministry found out about that horrible fucking place. It was full of dementors. They cannot be killed. Let me repeat that. So they had no choice but to keep the island around and eventually the dementors would run out of residual thoughts to eat and would leave for the mainland. Which would be bad. Bad bad bad when they started eating muggles. So they get a real asshole minister of magic who decides to use it as a prison. After all, the smaller prisons they were using for dark wizards were a security/secrecy risk, right? Yes they were. And no one can possibly escape from that place because they are too full of despair. Even without the dementor's kiss prisoners will fall into a depression and literally die of despair eventually.

I'm guessing a lot of this is off Pottermore as well?

Hmm... that whole thing about not being able to kill them is problematic. Because we know they can breed, so eventually, they have to overwhelm the whole world, right?

I am curious... what would happen if a Dementor was permanently contained (locked door, magical barrier, apparated/portkeyed into deep space, whatever) and was unable to feed? Would they eventually starve to death, or what?

And you know, Dark Wizards might deserve it, right? Well no. No one deserves that. But bad situation right? You have to feed the dementors.

Which of course means that any crime that warrants prison at all--mercifully given the wizarding world's capacity to fix things, this does not mean property crimes and the like--gets a one-way trip to hell.

So their punishments dont fit the crime, OK. That is a thing. But worse, when they have trials at all, those trials are a complete farce and so is their investigatory process.

Hagrid was sent there without trial in Book 2. Sirius Black was sent there without trial under dubious circumstances. He could have presented a defense successfully if he had because there was probably enough evidence to acquit in a fair court (see below), but no. No trial.

When there is a trial, it is a Star Chamber court where one's guilt or innocence is largely dependent on how well you can pull strings and favors within the ministry of magic. This is how a large number of death eaters got off.

*Pull strings*

"Oh, I was under the Imperius curse, but I am also a convenient occlumense so you cannot prove it one way or the other. I suppose you have to let me go without any security procedures to hedge against the possibility that I am lying to you."

Then there is Dolores Umbrage, caught In flagrante delicto torturing students. No punishment at all, which let her keep her position in the Ministry. It was only after the second war when there was a new minister that she was tried and executed.

Source on Umbridge being executed? There's never even a wizard death penalty mentioned in the books, which I kind of figured might have something to do with the fact that killing apparently can cause quantifiable damage to the soul in this series.

Though I wonder what it does to your soul to willingly feed someone to a Dementor.

As to the state of the legal system- yeah, what we see is shit, but we should remember that the only trials/investigations we get much of a look at were atypical situations- the old Death Eater trials were under Crouch, who had basically declared martial law, while Harry's was stated by Dumbledore to be in violation of the usual procedure, and the Muggleborn persecution by Umbridge in book seven was under Voldemort's dictatorship. We never see a normal trial in the books.

The worst is probably Hagrid's because he got no trial and it wasn't even in wartime.

And there are zero libel laws, apparently. If there were Rita Skeeter would have been sued into oblivion or sent to Hell.

Or she's really slick at bending the law without quite crossing the line and has enough money and lawyers to make it very hard to make an accusation stick when she does.

What's most staggering is that she appears to still be employed as a "journalist" post-Deathly Hallows, from some of Rowlings' writing. Forget libel, she arguably should have gone down for being a collaborator/propagandist for the Voldemort regime.

And you'd think Kingsley would be a bit harder to buy off or deceive than the Fudge Ministry.

Maybe she served time and then got employed by the Wizarding equivalent of a Neo-Nazi website?

Another point-

At no time is their any mention of wizards even having lawyers. Harry has no legal representation at his trial (granted, Dumbledore notes that it was not a typical trial, and that Fudge was basically changing procedure to rig it), with Dumbledore being simply a "witness for the defence" officially, as I recall.

[Lonestar]

Back to the secrecy statute(Harry Potter and the Cursed Child spoilers ahead).

It's remarked offhand by Draco in the Alternate Universe that massive amounts of gold is being spent to bribe the muggle PM into keeping quiet everytime there is an incident where the Deatheaters and Voldemort kill a lot of people. So, interestingly, it seems that ultimately:

(1)Voldemort decided to maintain the Statue of Secrecy. Given his attitudes in the OT, I can only imagine that there must have been immense international political pressure or something, and he is still running the British Isles wizarding community, but it's a basketcase DPRK-like country and everyone else has simply said that they will topple him if it gets too out of hand.

(2)The Ministry of Magic is resorting to material means for bribery to suppress magical actions. Why? Was there an emptying out of the wizarding population in the British Isles and so enough people to go around to suppress it through magical means?

Final thoughts: My fiancée is 90% sure she read HP & The Cursed Child as a fanfiction in the early 00s.

[The Romulan Republic]

Back to the secrecy statute(Harry Potter and the Cursed Child spoilers ahead).

It's remarked offhand by Draco in the Alternate Universe that massive amounts of gold is being spent to bribe the muggle PM into keeping quiet everytime there is an incident where the Deatheaters and Voldemort kill a lot of people. So, interestingly, it seems that ultimately:

That's more subtle than I would have credited a victorious Voldemort with. Though I do wonder how long the PM could keep that shit hidden, considering the scale of the mayhem the Death Eaters cause and the absence of a non-Voldemort-run Ministry of Magic to conceal it.

Frankly, though, I'd have thought he'd have just put an Imperious Curse on the PM rather than wasting gold on him.

(1)Voldemort decided to maintain the Statue of Secrecy. Given his attitudes in the OT, I can only imagine that there must have been immense international political pressure or something, and he is still running the British Isles wizarding community, but it's a basketcase DPRK-like country and everyone else has simply said that they will topple him if it gets too out of hand.

Haven't read Cursed Child yet, but could it be that even Voldemort realizes how utterly fucked he would be in a full-scale war with Muggles, and so has opted for quiet subversion rather than open war? Though that still doesn't explain why he's using gold rather than mind control.

As to the possibility of other countries toppling Voldemort...

At no point do we ever see any discussion, in the books at least, of other countries' attitudes towards Voldemort, or them taking any action against him, even when he and his people are engaged in illegal acts in mainland Europe. It is generally taken for granted that only Harry can stop him.

Possibly this could be attributed to the fact that most Wizarding nations, due to size/secrecy, likely do not have a large standing army or an inclination to engage in open warfare, so they literally have no means by which to unseat him, and their is no exceptional foreign wizard on Voldemort's level who can take him down one on one (like Dumbledore did to Grindelwald).

(2)The Ministry of Magic is resorting to material means for bribery to suppress magical actions. Why? Was there an emptying out of the wizarding population in the British Isles and so enough people to go around to suppress it through magical means?

Yeah, that is odd.

Final thoughts: My fiancée is 90% sure she read HP & The Cursed Child as a fanfiction in the early 00s.

Heh. If the plot summaries are anything to go by, a lot of it does, unfortunately, read like generic fanfic.

[madd0ct0r]

the exact bribery case in the cursed child is
.
.
.
.
three different deatheater bands each blew up bridges when competing to see who could kill the most muggles with a single spell.

[The Romulan Republic]

the exact bribery case in the cursed child is
.
.
.
.
three different deatheater bands each blew up bridges when competing to see who could kill the most muggles with a single spell.

I was thinking how pointlessly, cartoonishly evil this is, but then I recalled that their are plenty of cases in history of people doing worse with no better reason.

Its curious, though.

Why would Voldemort allow such actions from his followers if he was actually at all concerned about maintaining the Statute of Secrecy? During his rise, it at least served the purposes of spreading terror, holding Muggles hostage against the Ministry, and keeping the Ministry busy trying to clean up the damage. But once his rule is secured, that shit is a liability.

[Simon_Jester]

Final thoughts: My fiancée is 90% sure she read HP & The Cursed Child as a fanfiction in the early 00s.

Given the sheer staggering volume of Harry Potter fanfiction out there, almost every plot Rowling could plausibly have written for a sequel is one that someone has already explored in a fanfic. The only way for her to do anything that the thousands of fanfic writers haven't already thought of would be to radically break with her existing writing style and setting conventions, and even that might not work.

[madd0ct0r]

Final thoughts: My fiancée is 90% sure she read HP & The Cursed Child as a fanfiction in the early 00s.

Given the sheer staggering volume of Harry Potter fanfiction out there, almost every plot Rowling could plausibly have written for a sequel is one that someone has already explored in a fanfic. The only way for her to do anything that the thousands of fanfic writers haven't already thought of would be to radically break with her existing writing style and setting conventions, and even that might not work.

True. Im alzo 90% sure she posted story ideas and tests as fanfiction under assumed names. That woman likes her cloak and dagger.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Of course, we should probably add the caveat that a lot of the information we have on what it takes to use an Unforgivable Curse comes from Death Eaters, and Bellatrix in particular is... not a reliable source of information (i.e., she's bat shit crazy).

There's the interesting question of how Snape was able to use Avada Kedavra on Dumbledore, if it requires enjoying/wanting hurting people to use Unforgivables like Bellatrix said. It raises the rather disturbing possibility that a part of Snape actually wanted to off Dumbledore.

It is more like "You have to mean it", it does not necessarily mean you have to want them to die, but you have to be explicitly willing to kill, which is different from being a sadist or a sociopath (though that will also do it). I at least have always read it as having to overcome the psychological barrier to killing, which is something that Harry was simply not ready to do yet. Snape had already crossed that bridge. Aurors who use the killing curse have been trained to overcome that barrier.

And that is the difference between the other potentially lethal spells and the killing curse, I think. Creating a massive fire dragon only requires being willing to create fire. You have to overcome the barrier to kill if you use it for that, but the spell itself does not need it.

The killing curse DOES.

I'm guessing a lot of this is off Pottermore as well?

Yes, I might have spent the last few days binging.

Hmm... that whole thing about not being able to kill them is problematic. Because we know they can breed, so eventually, they have to overwhelm the whole world, right?

Hopefully they will wither away in time if unfed...

Source on Umbridge being executed? There's never even a wizard death penalty mentioned in the books, which I kind of figured might have something to do with the fact that killing apparently can cause quantifiable damage to the soul in this series.

Oh shit. Went back and checked. She got sent to the Revised Hell after the war.

As to the state of the legal system- yeah, what we see is shit, but we should remember that the only trials/investigations we get much of a look at were atypical situations- the old Death Eater trials were under Crouch, who had basically declared martial law, while Harry's was stated by Dumbledore to be in violation of the usual procedure, and the Muggleborn persecution by Umbridge in book seven was under Voldemort's dictatorship. We never see a normal trial in the books.

The worst is probably Hagrid's because he got no trial and it wasn't even in wartime.

The mere fact that they can do Star Chambers at all means their legal system is complete and utter trash. Which makes sense, because the Wizengamot is a 16th century institution, when the term Star Chamber was coined to describe the broken as fuck english legal system. Crouch might have violated the usual procedure, but the mere fact that he could do so at all means the system is broken.

At no time is their any mention of wizards even having lawyers. Harry has no legal representation at his trial (granted, Dumbledore notes that it was not a typical trial, and that Fudge was basically changing procedure to rig it), with Dumbledore being simply a "witness for the defence" officially, as I recall.

It was a full criminal trial with no right to legal council, yes. There dont appear to be any lawyers.

That's more subtle than I would have credited a victorious Voldemort with. Though I do wonder how long the PM could keep that shit hidden, considering the scale of the mayhem the Death Eaters cause and the absence of a non-Voldemort-run Ministry of Magic to conceal it.

Frankly, though, I'd have thought he'd have just put an Imperious Curse on the PM rather than wasting gold on him.

Once he has control of Wizarding Britain in total, THEN he starts the Harrowing of the Muggles. Until then, he wants to keep things as low-key as possible for two reasons.

1) As long as he can maintain the fiction that his new minister is on the level and not one of his minions to the outside wizarding world, the better. He does not want to be Grindlewalded. This is also why he has a propaganda campaign making the case that Harry Potter killed Dumbledore and the like. He wants to sow confusion. So long as the Muggles dont suspect magic--but instead suspect the IRA or other terrorists--the happier Voldy is. Using the Imperius Curse and having it removed would piss off Tony Blair, best to keep him swimming in gold.

2) That does not mean he keeps his death eaters on a choke collar however (given they blew up bridges), afterall, hatred of muggles is what unites them and he hates them too. But it does mean he disguises it as something other than what it is. He has not consolidated power. Harry Potter is still around, most of the Aurors are against him, and the Order of the Phoenix is still mostly at large. Letting them have some fun ties up Potter-Loyalist resources, covering everything up. His enemies do his work for him.

[Lonestar]

Once he has control of Wizarding Britain in total, THEN he starts the Harrowing of the Muggles. Until then, he wants to keep things as low-key as possible for two reasons.

1) As long as he can maintain the fiction that his new minister is on the level and not one of his minions to the outside wizarding world, the better. He does not want to be Grindlewalded. This is also why he has a propaganda campaign making the case that Harry Potter killed Dumbledore and the like. He wants to sow confusion. So long as the Muggles dont suspect magic--but instead suspect the IRA or other terrorists--the happier Voldy is. Using the Imperius Curse and having it removed would piss off Tony Blair, best to keep him swimming in gold.

2) That does not mean he keeps his death eaters on a choke collar however (given they blew up bridges), afterall, hatred of muggles is what unites them and he hates them too. But it does mean he disguises it as something other than what it is. He has not consolidated power. Harry Potter is still around, most of the Aurors are against him, and the Order of the Phoenix is still mostly at large. Letting them have some fun ties up Potter-Loyalist resources, covering everything up. His enemies do his work for him.

That was referencing the alternate universe where Harry is dead and Snape, Hermione, and Ron are essentially the only members of the Order of the Phoenix left. It sounds like you think that we were talking about the Deathly Hallows.

Since he was still keeping the existence of the magic world secret, and the Ministry had resorted to material means to suppress wizarding activity, it makes me think:

(1)Voldemort must be under immense international pressure to not break the statute of secrecy, which is essentially the only thing I can think of that would result in him reversing his stated goal of having the wizarding community come out of the closet and rule.

(2)If he's buckling to international pressure, the British Isles wizarding community might be some internationally isolated, basketcase DPRK government and everyone else is letting Voldemort do whatever as long as he doesn't upset the applecart.

(3)Since the Ministry would typically be able to use magic to cover up magical related disasters, resorting to paying people off makes me think that there has been a mass exodus of competent wizards and witches out of the British Isles. So there's a complete lack of talent to help keep stuff concealed through magical means.

[madd0ct0r]

Im not sure voldemort is alive in the alternate world. Seems to be the Augery who is pulling the strings, with draco as minister for magic and umbridge installed at hogwarts.

Regarding mass exodus- think more ethnic cleansing. There are explicitly mudbloods being tortured by pureblood students in the hogwarts dungeons. One of the pretty yet snobby slytherin girls rematks she's got blood on her shoe.

Less dprk and more khemer rouge.

[The Romulan Republic]

It is more like "You have to mean it", it does not necessarily mean you have to want them to die, but you have to be explicitly willing to kill, which is different from being a sadist or a sociopath (though that will also do it). I at least have always read it as having to overcome the psychological barrier to killing, which is something that Harry was simply not ready to do yet. Snape had already crossed that bridge. Aurors who use the killing curse have been trained to overcome that barrier.

And that is the difference between the other potentially lethal spells and the killing curse, I think. Creating a massive fire dragon only requires being willing to create fire. You have to overcome the barrier to kill if you use it for that, but the spell itself does not need it.

The killing curse DOES.

I actually think it would be interesting, character-wise, if on some level Snape did want to kill Dumbledore. Either because, as Dumbledore suggested, it was essentially a mercy killing, or because a part of him hated Dumbledore for putting him in that position.

Hmm. Would it be possible to knowingly throw a Killing Curse at, say a wall (we've seen that it basically reacts to impacting a physical barrier like a grenade going off)? You'd have no intent to kill- would that make it impossible to cast?

Will/emotional state does seem to be a major factor in a lot of high level magic in Harry Potter. While weaker spells, at least in the books/films, seem to be just a matter of waving the wand and saying the words right (with perhaps a bit of focus/effort for beginners), the higher end stuff usually requires intense focus and/or a particular emotional state (i.e. desire to cause pain for Unforgivables, happy thoughts/feelings for Patronusese, pure strength of will for shaking off an Imperius, calm/strength of will for using Occlumency). We also see that emotional state can affect the strength of a spell, with Lupin saying something along the lines of Snape being thrown around by Expelliarmus because the casters were overexcited in book three, and the whole thing about depression/grief/despair suppressing magical abilities (seen with Tonks and Voldemort's mother, as I recall).

Which is probably a big part of why Dementors are such effective guards. Even if you could effectively use wandless magic, the despair caused by Dementors is an effective magic-dampener.

Hopefully they will wither away in time if unfed...

Hopefully. Because otherwise its probably a matter of time until they overrun the world, unless someone finds another way to kill them.

Although... we know that they can't be killed by magic (apparently not even Avada Kedavra). But I do wonder what would happen if you herded them all into an isolated area (perhaps with Patronuses) and then dropped a hydrogen bomb on it...

Oh shit. Went back and checked. She got sent to the Revised Hell after the war.

That's what I thought, yeah.

The mere fact that they can do Star Chambers at all means their legal system is complete and utter trash.

Not to get all real-world political, but you could say as much about the US and it indefinite detention without trial following 911.

Which makes sense, because the Wizengamot is a 16th century institution, when the term Star Chamber was coined to describe the broken as fuck english legal system. Crouch might have violated the usual procedure, but the mere fact that he could do so at all means the system is broken.

I took that less as a violation of procedure than as the government fully sanctioning emergency measures during wartime, much like Lincoln suspending Habeus Corpus during the Civil War.

I'm not saying its right, because it isn't, but its not that far out their.

Fudge, though, was just fucking with procedure to stack the deck against the defendant for political reasons during Harry's trial, at least according to Dumbledore. That was fucked up.

It was a full criminal trial with no right to legal council, yes. There dont appear to be any lawyers.

As far as I recall, Dumbledore didn't even mention the lack of right to legal council as being anomalous. So yeah, lawyers at the very least are evidently not a right.

Granted, the defendant does have a right to call witnesses in their defence. But that presumes that the defendant is mentally competent to defend themselves and knows their rights. If not, without someone who has the ability to represent them, they're helpless.

Hell, Harry would probably have been doomed if Dumbledore (literally perhaps the most qualified person in that country to defend him- remember that Dumbledore had previously been head of the Wizengamot) hadn't been backing him up.

Once he has control of Wizarding Britain in total, THEN he starts the Harrowing of the Muggles. Until then, he wants to keep things as low-key as possible for two reasons.

1) As long as he can maintain the fiction that his new minister is on the level and not one of his minions to the outside wizarding world, the better. He does not want to be Grindlewalded. This is also why he has a propaganda campaign making the case that Harry Potter killed Dumbledore and the like. He wants to sow confusion. So long as the Muggles dont suspect magic--but instead suspect the IRA or other terrorists--the happier Voldy is. Using the Imperius Curse and having it removed would piss off Tony Blair, best to keep him swimming in gold.

That makes sense, but also shows he's not powerful enough to control the whole world openly yet. Which seems at odds with the whole thing about how unstoppable he is and only Harry can beat him, but I do wonder if to some extent Voldemort was a paper tiger. If the rest of the world had moved against him, or even a couple other large countries, could he really have stopped them? I mean, when the people actually rose up against him en mass (Battle of Hogwarts), his regime literally folded in a day. Yes, Harry beat him, but Voldemort was beat more by numbers and surprise in the final fight, and while his power was somewhat limited due to Harry's sacrifice, would it really have made that big a difference?

2) That does not mean he keeps his death eaters on a choke collar however (given they blew up bridges), afterall, hatred of muggles is what unites them and he hates them too. But it does mean he disguises it as something other than what it is. He has not consolidated power. Harry Potter is still around, most of the Aurors are against him, and the Order of the Phoenix is still mostly at large. Letting them have some fun ties up Potter-Loyalist resources, covering everything up. His enemies do his work for him.

As Lonestar said, Spoiler

this pertains to an alternate reality in the new play, not book seven

.

And with that, and with my apologies, I am adding a belated spoiler warning.

Edit: Actually, could I request that a mod add a spoiler warning to the thread title? We've been discussing new material here, after all (Pottermore and Cursed Child), and I don't doubt their'll be more if this thread is still running when Fantastic Beasts comes out in theatres.

[Elheru Aran]

*sigh* fucking spoilers still don't work if you have a quote in the post, guys. Micro-size the text or just make another post immediately following.

Anyway. Regarding the Wizard legal system.

One thing to bear in mind is that they have a number of ways to determine the absolute truth of what happened, where we don't, and so it's possible (not always, but probably more often than it is IRL) to determine guilt and innocence with more certainty. Veritaserum, Time-Turners, Legilimency and so forth. Obviously these aren't all used, perhaps not even most of the time, but one would hope that in a more sane system (perhaps before the current status quo) they are. They aren't without their risks-- Legilimency isn't perfect and can be foiled by Occlumency or simple insanity, Veritaserum only tells you what the person *thinks* is true, and so forth-- but they could provide a measure of assurance. Possibly they were used more in the past, hence quick puppet trials, and then their use was discontinued but the quick trials continued.

The fact is that what we see in the HP books shouldn't necessarily be considered 'normal'. Well, apart from the fact that they're works of fiction, obviously, but we see at first a society that's *striving* to be normal in the aftermath of a cataclysmic Wizarding War, then one under extreme pressure to remain normal in light of the return of Voldemort, and finally the complete collapse of the status quo.

[The Romulan Republic]

*sigh* fucking spoilers still don't work if you have a quote in the post, guys. Micro-size the text or just make another post immediately following.

Anyway. Regarding the Wizard legal system.

One thing to bear in mind is that they have a number of ways to determine the absolute truth of what happened, where we don't, and so it's possible (not always, but probably more often than it is IRL) to determine guilt and innocence with more certainty. Veritaserum, Time-Turners, Legilimency and so forth. Obviously these aren't all used, perhaps not even most of the time, but one would hope that in a more sane system (perhaps before the current status quo) they are. They aren't without their risks-- Legilimency isn't perfect and can be foiled by Occlumency or simple insanity, Veritaserum only tells you what the person *thinks* is true, and so forth-- but they could provide a measure of assurance. Possibly they were used more in the past, hence quick puppet trials, and then their use was discontinued but the quick trials continued.

I really hope they're not routinely engaging in time travel to solve legal cases.

Not that it would necessarily help. Their were plenty of eyewitnesses to Sirius' Black's case, and it still seemed open and shut at first glance. Their are lots of ways to mislead eyewitnesses, especially with magic.

Having access to fresh forensic evidence might help, if they have developed forensic science (or the magical equivalent), but again, fucking with time travel is dangerous, especially since Cursed Child shows its possible to alter history, not merely create what appeared to be a closed loop (Prisoner of Azkaban).

I seem to recall that a dark wizard can counter Veritaserum as well, though I don't recall the source. And Legilimency seems to be a rare talent, also blockable.

The fact is that what we see in the HP books shouldn't necessarily be considered 'normal'. Well, apart from the fact that they're works of fiction, obviously, but we see at first a society that's *striving* to be normal in the aftermath of a cataclysmic Wizarding War, then one under extreme pressure to remain normal in light of the return of Voldemort, and finally the complete collapse of the status quo.

True.

[Elheru Aran]

Obviously time travel would be something of an extreme measure. Say a murder case. But yes, it's questionable and risky, I still don't understand why the hell the Ministry allowed a... what, 13-year-old girl to have a time-travel device.

I suppose my point is that they probably have alternative means to determine innocence and guilt versus simple gathering of forensic evidence and witness testimonies. However, fundamentally their legal system seems to be little removed from the medieval, and requires serious revision.

HP is also problematic as it's got, almost always, only a single viewpoint-- we don't see, for example, Dumbledore thinking 'well because of paragraph A subsection 3 of Article V of the Wizengamot Charter I should be able to do this'. We only see the perspective of an immature near-Muggle youth who's intensely unfamiliar with the ins and outs of wizarding society; even by book 7 he's still largely unaware of many nuances of that society. Had we been seeing it from, for example, Ron Weasley's viewpoint or even Hermione's, we could well have seen a better or at least more detailed picture of wizarding society.

[Alyrium Denryle]

As Lonestar said, Spoiler Show

Yeah, my brain just skipped that and I have not seen the play. It has also been a looooong time since I read book 7. On the other hand, things like that probably did happen in the background of Book 7, because I dont know what the hell they did about Tony Blair at that time.

That makes sense, but also shows he's not powerful enough to control the whole world openly yet. Which seems at odds with the whole thing about how unstoppable he is and only Harry can beat him, but I do wonder if to some extent Voldemort was a paper tiger. If the rest of the world had moved against him, or even a couple other large countries, could he really have stopped them? I mean, when the people actually rose up against him en mass (Battle of Hogwarts), his regime literally folded in a day. Yes, Harry beat him, but Voldemort was beat more by numbers and surprise in the final fight, and while his power was somewhat limited due to Harry's sacrifice, would it really have made that big a difference?

Individually he is very scary, but ultimately a powerful enough wizard like Dumbledore, or a small group of wizards acting in concert, can check him and prevent him from doing harm. He still has to control territory. So is him + the death eaters+allies that make him difficult to defeat. He basically mobilized almost a quarter of the population into his armed forces (basically the degenerate Slytherins, whatever the house values are, their reputation means that non-blood-purists will self-select out to other compatible houses during sorting and have for generations). In a situation where the last generation of wizards has been underserved by training in combat magic, and most are not willing to kill, it would be pretty easy to terrorize most of the population if a quarter (or close to it) is on his side.

As far as I recall, Dumbledore didn't even mention the lack of right to legal council as being anomalous. So yeah, lawyers at the very least are evidently not a right.

Granted, the defendant does have a right to call witnesses in their defence. But that presumes that the defendant is mentally competent to defend themselves and knows their rights. If not, without someone who has the ability to represent them, they're helpless.

Hell, Harry would probably have been doomed if Dumbledore (literally perhaps the most qualified person in that country to defend him- remember that Dumbledore had previously been head of the Wizengamot) hadn't been backing him up.

Yep. Same day rescheduling, no council. Hell, one can only call witnesses for the defense if you have enough time to find them, which they did not give. The whole thing was a kangaroo court, and the fact that the Minister managed to get ALL those people to go along with such a thing indicates that this is at least considered acceptable.

Not to get all real-world political, but you could say as much about the US and it indefinite detention without trial following 911.

Yes. Yes we can. Though in this case it seems to be something that happens even without emergency measures. See Hagrid. They seem to even put people into hell BEFORE trial.

I actually think it would be interesting, character-wise, if on some level Snape did want to kill Dumbledore. Either because, as Dumbledore suggested, it was essentially a mercy killing, or because a part of him hated Dumbledore for putting him in that position.

Hmm. Would it be possible to knowingly throw a Killing Curse at, say a wall (we've seen that it basically reacts to impacting a physical barrier like a grenade going off)? You'd have no intent to kill- would that make it impossible to cast?

My hypothesis would indicate yes.

Which is probably a big part of why Dementors are such effective guards. Even if you could effectively use wandless magic, the despair caused by Dementors is an effective magic-dampener.

That does seem pretty reasonable, yes.