Finally, another class of First Order warship

PSW: discuss Star Wars without "versus" arguments.

Moderator: Vympel

User avatar
Galvatron
Decepticon Leader
Posts: 6662
Joined: 2002-07-12 12:27am
Location: Kill! Smash! Destroy! Rend! Mangle! Distort!

Finally, another class of First Order warship

Post by Galvatron »

This is from issue #2 of the Poe Dameron comic. No idea how it compares to the Finalizer, but I'm sure you guys will speculate:

Image
User avatar
U.P. Cinnabar
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3845
Joined: 2016-02-05 08:11pm
Location: Aboard the RCS Princess Cecile

Re: Finally, another class of First Order warship

Post by U.P. Cinnabar »

Cool looking ship, the bridge to one side makes it stand out.

He only mentioned its impressive troop and fighter capacity. Without seeing its organic weaponry in action, there's no way to assess its potential against a Finalizer.
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
—29th Scroll, 6th Verse of Ape Law
"Indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter. The uproarious laughter between the two, and their having fun at my expense.”
---Doctor Christine Blasey-Ford
User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 16329
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: Seriously thinking about moving to Marvel because so much of the DCEU stinks

Re: Finally, another class of First Order warship

Post by Batman »

The offset bridge structure looks odd.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
Patroklos
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2577
Joined: 2009-04-14 11:00am

Re: Finally, another class of First Order warship

Post by Patroklos »

I am actually happy to see a non KDY standard configuration and tower. Maybe we can get a new shipyard introduced. However, their conscious effort to replicate an real world carrier conning tower off to the side and everything rings stupid. Is there something particularly massive on the other side to balance? Just think what that does to the reactor and engine locations.

Though I guess you MIGHT be able to justify it to account for making room for a larger continuous through hanger given its description of carrying particularly noteworthy fighter and troop compliments (even though its called a heavy cruiser, so not a frigate). I can think of better ways to accomplish that besides that tower placement, but if some thought went into that other than "a space Nimitz might be col" I give them credit.
Last edited by Patroklos on 2016-05-10 03:05pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Galvatron
Decepticon Leader
Posts: 6662
Joined: 2002-07-12 12:27am
Location: Kill! Smash! Destroy! Rend! Mangle! Distort!

Re: Finally, another class of First Order warship

Post by Galvatron »

And I guess I should have known that there would be a Wookieepedia entry for it already.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Maxima-A ... vy_cruiser
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: Finally, another class of First Order warship

Post by Thanas »

It looks pretty ugly and unimaginative IMO.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Finally, another class of First Order warship

Post by Simon_Jester »

Well yes, but then no Imperial ship really looks anything other than big, nasty, and brutalist. And the art style isn't doing them any favors either. It makes the ship look if anything more squared-off and blocky than it would in a model for a movie.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Finally, another class of First Order warship

Post by Elheru Aran »

Yeah, the design is pretty obviously derivative of a IRL carrier. It's also a bit too cruise-ship-y in its look. The Finalizer and other Imperial ships have a more... how do I put it... coarse texture going on, with all the surface greeblies and what not. Granted that's hard to pull off with comic book art, so they get somewhat of a pass on the greeblies.

However, one distinct thing stands out to me. No equatorial trench. There's just a blank face along the perimeter. That, I think, is what's *really* making the difference.
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Finally, another class of First Order warship

Post by Simon_Jester »

Honestly, the idea that this is a dedicated fighter/troopship actually makes a lot of sense.

The Imperial doctrine of multirole ships may well leave a lot to be desired from the point of view of something like the First Order. The First Order probably doesn't do as many 'police actions' as the Empire, so there isn't much point wasting space on their normal warships for stuff like AT-ATs and garrison bases. But at the same time, any political organization that controls numerous planets (even on the Rim) needs spacecraft capable of moving large forces of fighters and/or troops over interstellar distances.

So a "space carrier" really does fit- a subclass of warship that can physically hold the massive shuttle and fighter complements their usual line-of-battle ships can't handle.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Finally, another class of First Order warship

Post by Elheru Aran »

Well, it's not like we haven't had carriers in Star Wars before. The Quasar Fire, anybody? The Acclamator is definitely a troop transport, and the Venator has a dual carrier/transport/warship role. Hell, the Ven even has a 'landing strip', so to speak.

The difference is mainly that they weren't straight-up fugly designs like this :P
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
User avatar
MKSheppard
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
Posts: 29842
Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm

Re: Finally, another class of First Order warship

Post by MKSheppard »

Fail. No full wing of TIE Avengers.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
User avatar
U.P. Cinnabar
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3845
Joined: 2016-02-05 08:11pm
Location: Aboard the RCS Princess Cecile

Re: Finally, another class of First Order warship

Post by U.P. Cinnabar »

Simon_Jester wrote:Honestly, the idea that this is a dedicated fighter/troopship actually makes a lot of sense.

The Imperial doctrine of multirole ships may well leave a lot to be desired from the point of view of something like the First Order. The First Order probably doesn't do as many 'police actions' as the Empire, so there isn't much point wasting space on their normal warships for stuff like AT-ATs and garrison bases. But at the same time, any political organization that controls numerous planets (even on the Rim) needs spacecraft capable of moving large forces of fighters and/or troops over interstellar distances.

So a "space carrier" really does fit- a subclass of warship that can physically hold the massive shuttle and fighter complements their usual line-of-battle ships can't handle.
On the other hand, if the First Order is strapped for resources and hulls, it would make equal sense for their starships to be as multi-role as possible, to get as much mileage out their machines as humanly possible.


Again, we will have to see more instances of the Maxima-A before we know for sure what its full capabilities are.
"Beware the Beast, Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone amongst God's primates, he kills for sport, for lust, for greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of Death.."
—29th Scroll, 6th Verse of Ape Law
"Indelible in the hippocampus is the laughter. The uproarious laughter between the two, and their having fun at my expense.”
---Doctor Christine Blasey-Ford
User avatar
Galvatron
Decepticon Leader
Posts: 6662
Joined: 2002-07-12 12:27am
Location: Kill! Smash! Destroy! Rend! Mangle! Distort!

Re: Finally, another class of First Order warship

Post by Galvatron »

MKSheppard wrote:Fail. No full wing of TIE Avengers.
Are TIE Avengers still canon?
fractalsponge1 wrote:Ugh.
Could you model that?
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27375
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Finally, another class of First Order warship

Post by NecronLord »

Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
madd0ct0r
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6259
Joined: 2008-03-14 07:47am

Re: Finally, another class of First Order warship

Post by madd0ct0r »

twin bridges would make more sense than that offset thing. There's either something much denser in the opposing wing to keep it balanced, or something that runs the full length of the ship that needs the space. A spine weapon might have worked, but not for a carrier. The only thing I can think of would be some sort of catapult/catchermitt to allow craft to accelerate/decelerate INSIDE the ship. Does Wars have inertia dampers?

Oooh, if dampers apply than the bridge ceases to be such a liability. Perhaps the ship is designed to operate in 'broadside' mode, with the bridge (and main engines under it) kept further back from the firefight while exposing the max number of launch bays to the enemy. Shots that do land have to chew through a lot of expendable bays and crew habitation before reaching core systems.
"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee
User avatar
biostem
Jedi Master
Posts: 1488
Joined: 2012-11-15 01:48pm

Re: Finally, another class of First Order warship

Post by biostem »

Meh... not a great design, but still better than that Clone Wars era ship that opened an entire hatch the length of the ship just to launch a few fighters/shuttles.
User avatar
Galvatron
Decepticon Leader
Posts: 6662
Joined: 2002-07-12 12:27am
Location: Kill! Smash! Destroy! Rend! Mangle! Distort!

Re: Finally, another class of First Order warship

Post by Galvatron »

What if that thing on the starboard side is an external docking mechanism for larger ships? Would that justify the bridge's location?
User avatar
Esquire
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1581
Joined: 2011-11-16 11:20pm

Re: Finally, another class of First Order warship

Post by Esquire »

Maxima-A implies either a Maxima-B or just plain Maxima - maybe this is a variant that needs a bunch of extra tower space, say for extra sensors or control facilities, and so they just stapled one one wherever it was most convenient?
“Heroes are heroes because they are heroic in behavior, not because they won or lost.” Nassim Nicholas Taleb
Adam Reynolds
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2354
Joined: 2004-03-27 04:51am

Re: Finally, another class of First Order warship

Post by Adam Reynolds »

biostem wrote:Meh... not a great design, but still better than that Clone Wars era ship that opened an entire hatch the length of the ship just to launch a few fighters/shuttles.
Which is likely why the Venator went out of service in favor of the ISD. It was just too vulnerable to be worth keeping in service. Especially against the fighter dependent Rebel Alliance who would likely be more capable of exploiting that weakness than the CIS.

Though I wonder why the Acclamator class also went out of service. One possibility is that Imperial landing craft were smaller for a reason. They were intended to penetrate shields in a fashion a larger craft would be less effective at.
eMeM
Padawan Learner
Posts: 236
Joined: 2016-02-21 11:50am

Re: Finally, another class of First Order warship

Post by eMeM »

biostem wrote:Meh... not a great design, but still better than that Clone Wars era ship that opened an entire hatch the length of the ship just to launch a few fighters/shuttles.
It allows them to launch a lot of fighters really fast, and there are secondary "hatches", like the one Obi-Wan uses in RotS.
And what would you say about the Finalizer which has a "flight deck" which runs throughout the entire length of the ship and cannot be closed? :D

@topic I don't like it just like I didn't like (Space) Landing Craft Infantry. What's next, Space Battleship Yamato?
fractalsponge1
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1650
Joined: 2006-04-30 08:04pm
Contact:

Re: Finally, another class of First Order warship

Post by fractalsponge1 »

Galvatron wrote:
MKSheppard wrote:Fail. No full wing of TIE Avengers.
Are TIE Avengers still canon?
fractalsponge1 wrote:Ugh.
Could you model that?
It's pretty trivial to model. Whether the design is any good is an open question, imo :)
User avatar
Galvatron
Decepticon Leader
Posts: 6662
Joined: 2002-07-12 12:27am
Location: Kill! Smash! Destroy! Rend! Mangle! Distort!

Re: Finally, another class of First Order warship

Post by Galvatron »

fractalsponge1 wrote:It's pretty trivial to model. Whether the design is any good is an open question, imo :)
Oh yeah?! Do you think you could do any better??











:wink:
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Finally, another class of First Order warship

Post by Simon_Jester »

U.P. Cinnabar wrote:On the other hand, if the First Order is strapped for resources and hulls, it would make equal sense for their starships to be as multi-role as possible, to get as much mileage out their machines as humanly possible.

Again, we will have to see more instances of the Maxima-A before we know for sure what its full capabilities are.
If they were strapped, then either:
1) They wouldn't have been able to set up Starkiller Base, or
2) They'd have had to devote basically all their resources to the Base, and would have nothing left over for conventional forces.

In case (2), they wouldn't have enough conventional forces to be a threat before building the Base, in which case they wouldn't be worrying the New Republic badly enough to convince them to support a Resistance to oppose them.

I figure that the First Order has at least dozens if not hundreds of destroyer-class starships (compared to the tens of thousands the Empire had, plus various larger command ships and flagships). In which case a dedicated troop carrier variant starts to make more sense. Basically, they have enough ships that they can afford variant hulls, but they have proportionately more and relatively better armed enemies than the Empire ever had, so they can't afford to compromise ship-to-ship firepower.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
Adam Reynolds
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2354
Joined: 2004-03-27 04:51am

Re: Finally, another class of First Order warship

Post by Adam Reynolds »

Simon_Jester wrote: In case (2), they wouldn't have enough conventional forces to be a threat before building the Base, in which case they wouldn't be worrying the New Republic badly enough to convince them to support a Resistance to oppose them.
Unless the reason the New Republic couldn't oppose them was political rather than military. If the New Republic has a policy of non-interventionism, I could see a need for The Resistance to deal with the First Order unoffically. For much the same reason the US has the CIA do operations of this sort rather than officially using the military.
I figure that the First Order has at least dozens if not hundreds of destroyer-class starships (compared to the tens of thousands the Empire had, plus various larger command ships and flagships). In which case a dedicated troop carrier variant starts to make more sense. Basically, they have enough ships that they can afford variant hulls, but they have proportionately more and relatively better armed enemies than the Empire ever had, so they can't afford to compromise ship-to-ship firepower.
Not to disagree with this, because even if the First Order is minuscule, they should still reasonably have hundreds of ships lying around for such an occasion.
Post Reply