Wildbow's Pact- discussion thread

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Raw Shark
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Re: Wildbow's Pact- discussion thread

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Alkaloid wrote:
Does it, necessarily? What if she were to summon vicious non-demonic monsters for self-defense, and use diabolism to bind wild demons only? Wouldn't that generate net good karma?
Honestly, I'm not sure. It seems like it should, but Black Lambs Blood seemed to indicate that eventually all daemonists fall victim to poor karma eventually. It may be that making deals with demons is bad karma regardless of what the deal actually entails, or it might be that for more powerful demons you can't get around giving them something they actually want when making a deal so you still get hit with the consequences. Or the book could be lying, written by an idiot or pure propaganda.
Black Lamb's Blood has an optimistic tone regarding whether getting a diabolist's Balance sorted out is possible; the pessimism regards the chances of any individual diabolist of actually doing it, because diabolism tends to attract short-sighted assholes. Big Rose seemed to seriously think there was something to it, if her willingness to trade anti-demon measures to the Behaims and her directives to her heirs to improve the family karma are any indication. BLB explicitly suggests that sort of info leak as a means of setting the diabolist community as a whole back, and potentially at each other's throats, to put things Right in the long run.
Alkaloid wrote:Anyway, you don't have to summon demons for bad karma, there are all sorts of ways to get hit with it.

Regardless, that's not what she did. To date she's summoned a gender flipped Jason Vorhees that trashed a city block and from the sounds of things killed a few people, an unnerving creatures that's already started a war between the Sisterhood and the Astrologer as well as summoning what's essentially the girl from the ring. Also a vengeance obsessed wax zombie, although in fairness we don't know what it's actually done yet because Blake was unconscious for it's rampage.
We can presume that Big Rose, like most practitioners, had a means and desire to monitor her own Balance, so she would know what effect summoning, binding, and using each of those monsters (at least for the tasks she wrote about) would have on it. Assuming that what we can infer about her agenda from her seeming adherence to BLB's ideas and suggestions is not an elaborate ruse, why would she have left detailed descriptions of each of those monsters, including their names, habits, uses, and past experiences in her service, if she didn't intend for her heirs to use them, and believe that they could without screwing up the whole long-term plan? She could be wrong, of course, but she has to think it's at least possible, or she would've just edited them out of the notes.
Alkaloid wrote:Given that the chaos and confusion from telling even a small lie nets you bad karma, so she must be stockpiling it pretty quickly.
I don't think lying is lower on the karma significance scale than death and destruction. Lying creates karmic Wrong on a grander scale than mundane chaos and confusion in this setting, because it eats away at reality itself. Lots of practitioners sow death and destruction, but lying is serious business.

"Do I really look like a guy with a plan? Y'know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it! Y'know, I just do things..." --The Joker
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Re: Wildbow's Pact- discussion thread

Post by Alkaloid »

Bloody mary is so much more then 'the girl from the ring' - it's a kid's legend that has been around for decades, if not longer. A sipirt associated with childbirth who went wrong?

The other female spirit she summoned was a japanese one, Kuchisake-Onna (but she got red shirted by conquest without doing anything).

Midge is the outcome of modern southern gothic - inbred and subhuman poverty, links to gluttony in her binding ritual. Can't find anything that might tie to her a 'real' urban legend

Corviadae is the magpie, with some hints linking it to 'cunning crow' in the native Canadian mythology.

Tallowman seems like he could be lifted from this reddit story: http://www.reddit.com/r/nosleep/comment ... allow_man/
But the links between wax and fat and candles and life are pretty ancient.

None of them are demons - all of them have a source outside of the choirs.
I know, I never said any of them were demons. The point is you can and do get karma from things other than demons. All of the things Rose chose to summon sow chaos and fear, so they would have a negative effect on her karma, as opposed to say binding the Hyena, which would have a positive effect as it removes a source of chaos and fear and restores some level of order.

We can presume that Big Rose, like most practitioners, had a means and desire to monitor her own Balance, so she would know what effect summoning, binding, and using each of those monsters (at least for the tasks she wrote about) would have on it. Assuming that what we can infer about her agenda from her seeming adherence to BLB's ideas and suggestions is not an elaborate ruse, why would she have left detailed descriptions of each of those monsters, including their names, habits, uses, and past experiences in her service, if she didn't intend for her heirs to use them, and believe that they could without screwing up the whole long-term plan? She could be wrong, of course, but she has to think it's at least possible, or she would've just edited them out of the notes.
But BLB didn't come from grandma Rose, it came from the Lawyers, who she specifically advised not to trust as they have their own agenda, mainly wanting the Thorburn heir as their new grad student.

And it was optimistic in that it supposed daemonism could have a net positive effect for reality as a whole, but was significantly less optimistic about the fate of the individual daemonists. It suggested that any daemonists who practice in an effort to limit or remove the demons influence are essentially sacrificing themselves in order to do so. It kind of makes sense, I think. You essentially limit the damage to reality by taking the karmic debt onto yourself.

And I imagine there's information on how to summon hundreds if not thousands of monsters in the library, given that it goes back generations. And Rose has jumped in and grabbed the 5 most powerful she thinks she can handle straight off the bat. It's already blown up in her face once, and I'll be very, very surprised if Corvidae doesn't have some pretty serious consequences as well.
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Re: Wildbow's Pact- discussion thread

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Alkaloid wrote:But BLB didn't come from grandma Rose, it came from the Lawyers, who she specifically advised not to trust as they have their own agenda, mainly wanting the Thorburn heir as their new grad student.
[facepalm] Right, forgot that detail. Still, she seems to be using it as her playbook or to have arrived at the same ideas some other way, based on the stuff I mentioned previously. Maybe they're trying to manipulate Blake away from its advice by giving it to him themselves, knowing full well that Grandma would warn him not to trust them.
Alkaloid wrote:And it was optimistic in that it supposed daemonism could have a net positive effect for reality as a whole, but was significantly less optimistic about the fate of the individual daemonists. It suggested that any daemonists who practice in an effort to limit or remove the demons influence are essentially sacrificing themselves in order to do so. It kind of makes sense, I think. You essentially limit the damage to reality by taking the karmic debt onto yourself.
Nope:
Black Lamb's Blood wrote:My first big question, then, is whether we can manage the karmic balance. Is it possible to walk away free and clear?

Most will say yes. There is the slow growth. Regaining an even or positive Balance by fits and starts, small oaths and large ones, through Right, maintaining and keeping to a code. The Universe will periodically seek to re-establish balance, and the practitioner, succeed or fail, will find a portion of the debt spent to bring this about. Bigger oaths and restoring balance to reality can counteract the karmic weight that burdens the practitioner.

It is possible to escape this burden, yet time and again, diabolists fall into the trap and fail to escape it.
Alkaloid wrote:And I imagine there's information on how to summon hundreds if not thousands of monsters in the library, given that it goes back generations.
Big Rose had a planned expiration date and plenty of time to get rid of all that information if she thought summoning them was guaranteed to torpedo the plan, though.
Alkaloid wrote:And Rose has jumped in and grabbed the 5 most powerful she thinks she can handle straight off the bat. It's already blown up in her face once, and I'll be very, very surprised if Corvidae doesn't have some pretty serious consequences as well.
Agreed on that, but I predict it'll be more a matter of Corvidae screwing her over directly, as it was with Midge, than upsetting her Balance just by working for her. Setting the Sisters and the Astrologer at each other's throats doesn't fit the bill when they've already attacked, and in the case of the latter killed a member of, the team.

"Do I really look like a guy with a plan? Y'know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it! Y'know, I just do things..." --The Joker
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Re: Wildbow's Pact- discussion thread

Post by Spekio »

So, let's talk about the latest chapter:

What is Padraic's plan? Why help Blake?
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Re: Wildbow's Pact- discussion thread

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Spekio wrote:What is Padraic's plan? Why help Blake?
Well, we've been explicitly told by multiple sources that the only reason a faerie normally does anything is to relieve boredom. On the other hand, that makes it a little too obvious. What else would motivate him? Maybe he's got some king of long con in mind that he thinks will free him permanently?

"Do I really look like a guy with a plan? Y'know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it! Y'know, I just do things..." --The Joker
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Re: Wildbow's Pact- discussion thread

Post by Spekio »

He also said he wanted revenge. Not explicitly stated on whom he wanted revenge - and I have some suspicion some of the Jacob's Bell's lines was responsible for his exile.

I'm eager for tomorrow's chapter if we keep following that girl who looks like Maggie Holt.
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Re: Wildbow's Pact- discussion thread

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he has too, part of the deal is that Maggie Holt would meet and learn from a trapped lord.
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Re: Wildbow's Pact- discussion thread

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I'm really enjoying this little arc. And this latest chapter did creep me out a little.
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Re: Wildbow's Pact- discussion thread

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Spekio wrote:I'm really enjoying this little arc. And this latest chapter did creep me out a little.
Spoiler
Yeah, the singing dolls with bones in them were freaky. I'm idly speculating that each one contains bones, hair, etc from somebody who had something awful happen to them shortly after Maya got her hands on bits of them, centuries ago in some cases...

The "slave test" was sort of a piss-cutter. If I found myself in that situation, I'd be thinking like, "Shit, is the right answer to free her and show that I'm not a white imperialist, or to keep my hands off and show that I respect Maya's stuff?" Maya's a dick.

Looking forward to seeing more of Johannes and his version of Toon Town.

"Do I really look like a guy with a plan? Y'know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it! Y'know, I just do things..." --The Joker
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Re: Wildbow's Pact- discussion thread

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Spoiler
This is another instance of what is good and what is right. not!Maggie would have broken the hospitality offered to her were she to free the child.
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Re: Wildbow's Pact- discussion thread

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Reading Pact really does not make me miss living in the North. "Winter sucks" is a definite recurring theme here.

"Do I really look like a guy with a plan? Y'know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it! Y'know, I just do things..." --The Joker
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Re: Wildbow's Pact- discussion thread

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Signature 8.7:
Spoiler
In this episode, we get to see TGITCS manage to claim some sort of identity. Luckily for us, that identity is a cross between Eerily Calm Tyler Durden and Foaming-at-the-Mouth Jesse Pinkman:

"Yes, I am sitting in the bloody pieces of seven goblins that I blew up with an IED.
Yes, I am okay with that. I am enlightened...
Because this shit? This is ME, yo! Right here!"

"Do I really look like a guy with a plan? Y'know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it! Y'know, I just do things..." --The Joker
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Re: Wildbow's Pact- discussion thread

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Spoiler
Mags now. So, why can her remeber Blake, when even the Sphinx could not?
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Re: Wildbow's Pact- discussion thread

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Spekio wrote:Spoiler
Mags now. So, why can her remeber Blake, when even the Sphinx could not?
Spoiler
Becuase the connection was cut between Blake and Maggie Holt. Without a name, there was no way to trace the connection to the being that became Mags, and thus no way for Ur to cut it
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Re: Wildbow's Pact- discussion thread

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So, this set me back a little:
Spoiler
"'There was a reason for it,” Rose said. “Had to be. And I’m sure we’ll find the clues here, given time to look. All I know is, I fucked up my awakening ritual on purpose, last time around. This time, right here, right now, I’m gonna do it right.'"
How do we reconcile that with:
Bonds 1.7 wrote:“Why?” Rose asked. “Mine says holly.”

I approached the mirror, book held out. We each held our books out so her book was almost a reflection of mine. Sure enough, the text, the symbol for the inside of the little circle in question and the art for the token were all different.
....? Sure, her probable motive is obvious, but how did she seamlessly alter the book?

"Do I really look like a guy with a plan? Y'know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it! Y'know, I just do things..." --The Joker
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Re: Wildbow's Pact- discussion thread

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She doesn't sleep and goes through books like nothing - she had plenty of time to set things up.

You also assume she wasn't already around the house with Molly before - after all, it was Rose who warned Blake.
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

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Re: Wildbow's Pact- discussion thread

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Sure, but she'd basically have to do what, remove an entire page, have it professionally reprinted, and reinsert it, or overlay a fake page without any signs of that, to pull off that scene? Unless she can control what Blake sees in the mirror without being Awakened...

"Do I really look like a guy with a plan? Y'know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it! Y'know, I just do things..." --The Joker
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Re: Wildbow's Pact- discussion thread

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you assume the vision is true, and that Rose speaking in it is correct. It's not like she can remember.
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Re: Wildbow's Pact- discussion thread

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So, that was unpleasant.
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Re: Wildbow's Pact- discussion thread

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Alkaloid wrote:So, that was unpleasant.
Spoiler
Really? I thought he got off kind of easy, honestly. The way he and Zoey were talking, I thought Wildbow was going to make him have consensual sex with his rapist or something utterly fucked-up like that.

Also: Yay, new monsters! No-Holds-Barred Aggro Rose! Looks like Ty took on Evan, as I suspected. Rose is keeping her options open until she can seduce something more powerful. Expecting Alexis to show up with a tattoo gun implement any day now; no clue about the rest.

"Do I really look like a guy with a plan? Y'know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it! Y'know, I just do things..." --The Joker
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Re: Wildbow's Pact- discussion thread

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Idle Speculation: Tattoo Gun Implement: Non-Traditional Stylus. Direct and particularly suited to forging strong, sometimes permanent connections between living flesh and anything else. Downside: Visible signs of the connection, even to the non-Awakened who are in the know and can figure cryptic symbols out. Especially bad at breaking connections subtly: can by necessity only "scribble them out." Cannot assist glyphs unless they are inscribed on flesh.

"Do I really look like a guy with a plan? Y'know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it! Y'know, I just do things..." --The Joker
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Re: Wildbow's Pact- discussion thread

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I really like Rose. She is getting shit done. Meanwhile Blake is bitching at her for doing the same things he did, that is, putting his friends into the line of fire.
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Re: Wildbow's Pact- discussion thread

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Spoiler
Pact is getting much more interesting now, isn't it?
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Re: Wildbow's Pact- discussion thread

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Oh yes, it is... I'm half hoping Blakes dream comes (in part) true, just so that he can do a proper ass-kicking once he gets out.
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

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Re: Wildbow's Pact- discussion thread

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Ok, round three is on... Now with an unleashed Blake...
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

I do archery skeet. With a Trebuchet.
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